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[jmone]

masterjoe does have a point we have touched on before about serving out to DLNA Renderers live streams (Radio, TV, Webcams, Video Capture Devices).

At present it is not "easy" in MC to:
1) Create a Playlist of Live Radio Stations, TV stations.  It can be done but it is a bit of a kludge
2) Playback of these items works fine in MC but gets problematic with pushing to DLNA devices due to varied support of the streams by the Renderer (as it just hands off the Radio URL), or for TV/Webcams/Video Capture devices (as it hands of the entry to the TV DB not the buffered stream)

All the calls and conversion engines of course already exist in MC as both MC and MC Cleints have no issue.  In addition MCWS already includes the ability to determine (in the case the TV/Webcams/Video Capture Devices) how to commence buffering the stream then server that stream to the DLNA Renderer as has been demonstrated by the dev of EOS.

To me it would make sense to:
1) Make creation of Playlist easier for these streams
2) Push all of these streams through the DSP Engine Profile so that DLNA renders could play them (eg one of my Radio Steams is a 1ch MP3 that my Android Devices can not play)

Thanks
Nathan

[Hendrik]

Re-posting his wishes into the beta forum isn't really going to make it happen any sooner. 

[Arindelle]

Re-posting his wishes into the beta forum isn't really going to make it happen any sooner.  

LOL 

To me it would make sense to:
1) Make creation of Playlist easier for these streams
2) Push all of these streams through the DSP Engine Profile so that DLNA renders could play them (eg one of my Radio Steams is a 1ch MP3 that my Android Devices can not play)

It does make sense. Your number one sounds doable -- could that work by entering weblinks in fields? If so that would be very cool. You guys started working on that for Tidal, maybe something could be used from that experiment?

For number 2 fine but ...

Seems to me people are taking too literally that everything is going to work out of the box with DLNA. I think a lot of people think that it JRiver's "responsibility" to make everything work with any outside renderer. And reading the web site,

DLNA
Media Center will work with thousands of TV's, Blu-ray players, receivers, and other devices which support the DLNA protocol. You can also use a PS3 or an Xbox 360.

it could be interpreted that way.

I'm hoping we could push JRiver as the preferred renderer when possible. Maybe make a list somewhere of the functions that network streamers and DLNA devices need for full use of JRiver and put the onus on the manufacturers (or the people asking for help, to ask them. Andrew's program could be very handy. Have the users send a copy to them?!) And  Android devices are one thing, but apple stuff  could be a nightmare -- get airport express and apple TV to work now ok, but in 6 months it could be like syncing to iphones. Not to mention some of the high end network boxes. People don't like to hear that a 4000 euro network DAC can't play in gapless after the fact.

[AndrewFG]

Re-posting his wishes into the beta forum isn't really going to make it happen any sooner. 

Hey Hendrik that was a pretty grumpy response; did you have a bad night?

For the record I had already "re-posted" a similar collection of suggestions from the main forums to this beta forum, but Jim already "re-re-posted" it back to the main forum..

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=97030.0

<rant>

In general, why are you guys are so negative about improving your UPnP implementation? As you have no doubt noticed I and others have a lot of improvement suggestions. And there is a lot of demand for such improvements. In my opinion, if you were to proactively grasp the opportunity you could become a significant first mover and leader in this field, rather than just being a grudging passive follower. You have the skill but apparently not the will..

</rant>

[Hendrik]

We're not negative about improving anything, but re-posting the same requests in several different forums and splitting the discussion isn't helpful, which is why Jim will probably do away with this thread as well once he wakes up.
The beta forums should only be used for beta-specific feedback (ie. things that directly relate to beta versions), and general discussions and suggestions kept to the main board, so anyone can participate.

[jmone]

Nope, that is well out of my influence - but I was hopping to translate & summarise it and see if it was worth discussing it in a smaller and more focused team.  I presume that is what you want from your Beta Team.  

As a general comment (and a the risk of pissing the JR Team off which is not my intent), what has changed?  You used to share a lot more of your ideas and where it is going.  To me, you used to engage the Beta Team much more on ideas and even development (eg the first version of RO).  I see lots of ideas being posted in the Beta Forum but little engagement on what is being taken up, dropped, or even little in depth discussion.  You are all very talented and no doubt flat out like a lizard drinking but your beta team is a free resource that is keen to participate.  I (and I'm sure others) have no problem to be told bluntly that some idea is absurd, is low priority, or will not happen at all but it feels like we pitch stuff to a brick wall at times.  The most active thread on the Beta Team is now users that annoy us!  What happened to the lofty discussions of yore?  

If all you need these days is for some early user testing of a new build then great.  Let us know and threads like these will not show up.  If you wanted to share some of your ideas on "What Next" I'm sure you will find plenty of input to help refine these ideas.

Thanks
Nathan
(soon to be demoted from forum admin/beta team member!   )

[AndrewFG]

Jim will probably do away with this thread as well once he wakes up.

Hmm. Personally I would suggest to keep a thread open on this topic in the beta forum. I think the guys here can help you brainstorm on possible future architectures and solutions, without letting the cat out of the bag. And there may be issues that you don't necessarily want to take a public position on until you have had time to think things through. I feel that pushing the discussion out on the main forum and occasionally posting the standard "not soon" reply gives a rather bad marketing impression, compared to giving a more considered reply only later when you deem the time to be right. Just my 2c...

[Hendrik]

People seem to get more upset if you just never answer them at all, though. We're all busy with a lot of projects, so unless one of those project happens to be one that the user asks about, the answer is always going to be "not soon" for any medium-to-big projects.

[JimH]

At present it is not "easy" in MC to:
1) Create a Playlist of Live Radio Stations, TV stations.  It can be done but it is a bit of a kludge
2) Playback of these items works fine in MC but gets problematic with pushing to DLNA devices due to varied support of the streams by the Renderer (as it just hands off the Radio URL), or for TV/Webcams/Video Capture devices (as it hands of the entry to the TV DB not the buffered stream)

We've discussed this a few times, and as recently as yesterday.

[JimH]

In general, why are you guys are so negative about improving your UPnP implementation? As you have no doubt noticed I and others have a lot of improvement suggestions. And there is a lot of demand for such improvements. In my opinion, if you were to proactively grasp the opportunity you could become a significant first mover and leader in this field, rather than just being a grudging passive follower. You have the skill but apparently not the will..

We're not negative at all.  Hendrik's response is correct.

I don't think we've done anything on UPnP for the last couple of months, but we have to be very careful.  A small tweak can cause big problems.  The recent work on 4K TV's is a great example.  What looked fairly straightforward in the beginning turned into a much bigger project than we thought it would be, and we're still mopping up.

[jmone]

We've discussed this a few times, and as recently as yesterday.

That is a great example of my point.  I'm sure you discuss all sorts of cool things but my ESP has failed.  I have no idea what you are thinking or what you want feedback or input on (if at all).  Unless you want to share some of your thoughts we as your Beta Team are just stumbling about in the dark throwing things up and annoying you all with random posts!

[Arindelle]

We're not negative about improving anything, but re-posting the same requests in several different forums and splitting the discussion isn't helpful, which is why Jim will probably do away with this thread as well once he wakes up.

fairplay Hendrik, but I hope my comment on DLNA compatibility as it is "perceived" gets read. IMO that is a can of worms, that seems like a trend; everybody wants help with DLNA from the JRiver side when they should be looking towards their hardware. Andrews program is bloody genius stuff btw -- its just way too geeky for people that buy some of these "renderers" to choose the best options in JRiver from the reports it generates. They'd be better off just getting an ID for 20% of the price, IMO of course. It might sound off-topic but it is not in that the typical JRiver new user seems to be using DLNA devices. The improving all round compatibility could lead to more and more options which are already daunting for the user. So I think a discussion would be valuable and would filter out the passive-aggressive responses that one has to deal with in the public forum.

Edit: one phone call and 5 replies before I could post this !  

[AndrewFG]

I don't think we've done anything on UPnP for the last couple of months, but we have to be very careful.  A small tweak can cause big problems.  The recent work on 4K TV's is a great example.  What looked fairly straightforward in the beginning turned into a much bigger project than we thought it would be, and we're still mopping up.

Actually that is the reason why I suggest keeping such things on the beta forum a bit longer until the final intention is clear...

[Hendrik]

I still want to clean up the transcoding engine, and in that process we could hopefully more easily allow for more flexible video (and audio, i guess) streaming over DLNA and MCWS, including TV and web streams.
I should finish the concept ideas and get some feedback on that soon. Silly JRemote was keeping me busy!

[jmone]

I still want to clean up the transcoding engine, and in that process we could hopefully more easily allow for more flexible video (and audio, i guess) streaming over DLNA and MCWS, including TV and web streams.
I should finish the concept ideas and get some feedback on that soon. Silly JRemote was keeping me busy!

Best news I've heard in ages!  If you need any thoughts, ideas, testing etc I'm sure the Beta Team stands ready!!!  We are bored and ready to be put to work!

[JimH]

Nope, that is well out of my influence - but I was hopping to translate & summarise it and see if it was worth discussing it in a smaller and more focused team.  I presume that is what you want from your Beta Team.  

As a general comment (and a the risk of pissing the JR Team off which is not my intent), what has changed?  You used to share a lot more of your ideas and where it is going.  To me, you used to engage the Beta Team much more on ideas and even development (eg the first version of RO).  I see lots of ideas being posted in the Beta Forum but little engagement on what is being taken up, dropped, or even little in depth discussion.  You are all very talented and no doubt flat out like a lizard drinking but your beta team is a free resource that is keen to participate.  I (and I'm sure others) have no problem to be told bluntly that some idea is absurd, is low priority, or will not happen at all but it feels like we pitch stuff to a brick wall at times.  The most active thread on the Beta Team is now users that annoy us!  What happened to the lofty discussions of yore?  

If all you need these days is for some early user testing of a new build then great.  Let us know and threads like these will not show up.  If you wanted to share some of your ideas on "What Next" I'm sure you will find plenty of input to help refine these ideas.

Thanks
Nathan
(soon to be demoted from forum admin/beta team member!   )

I think this is fair.  If you think about what we've been doing during the last year or two, it might help explain.

Major work
Porting
Hardware
Pono
Video on Mac and Linux
JRemote

Minor work
High resolution displays
Touch screen
DSP over DLNA
Etc.

Which of these should we have dropped so that we could do some other project?

[JimH]

That is a great example of my point.  I'm sure you discuss all sorts of cool things but my ESP has failed.  I have no idea what you are thinking or what you want feedback or input on (if at all).  Unless you want to share some of your thoughts we as your Beta Team are just stumbling about in the dark throwing things up and annoying you all with random posts!

I guess we could put up a live webcam and add it as a channel under TV.  I think you'd wear out the fast forward button though.

[JimH]

The beta forums should only be used for beta-specific feedback (ie. things that directly relate to beta versions), and general discussions and suggestions kept to the main board, so anyone can participate.

Agreed.  It's important to feedback from a broad audience rather than just the tin foil team.

[AndrewFG]

I still want to clean up the transcoding engine, and in that process we could hopefully more easily allow for more flexible video (and audio, i guess) streaming over DLNA and MCWS, including TV and web streams.

Hendrik that is brilliant news. Please feel free to consult me (either on the Beta forum or via PM). Firstly I would be delighted to help. And secondly, more importantly, I have real actual experience in writing a transcoding engine, an HTTP media server engine, an HTTP media server proxy (for remote streams), including learning a lot of tricks about HTTP headers, time/byte seeking (in or out of cache), and many besides.

I know that it is possible to do this right, (I have done it), and I find the present limitations of MC so frustrating that I have seriously been thinking about writing a wrapper around MC (COM automation, proxy renderer, proxy server, plug in) in order to solve it. The only thing putting me off is the knowledge that once I would have done all that work, you would finally wake up, do it right, and make all my efforts obsolete..

[Hendrik]

Note that it's still under the "not soon" premise. I'm quite busy with JRemote still, somehow the video support in it needs some loving, not to mention the general UI work.

People also keep complaining about subtitle support on Mac/Linux... and glynor wants to rotate his videos. Maybe I should send him a rotating monitor, and scratch that off my list?

[jmone]

Love it! - Best thread ever.

Jim - You should drop absolutely nothing!  It is all JR's vision, direction and resource allocation.  We (the Beta Team) are a bunch of hanger on'ers, basking in the collective success but we just love being involved in the discussion and just want to continue to be so.  I think over the years we have made many valuable contributions and can continue to do so if we know what is next.  Look at the response so far, the team want to spend time and effort in helping (eg on DLNA AndrewFG is a gold mine, use him!)

[jmone]

I'd say Andrew's thoughts are worth a separate thread to explore his ideas and what would be achievable with MC current implementation.  A bit of a round table with him, Hendrik, and Bob ? ? ?  

[jmone]

I guess we could put up a live webcam and add it as a channel under TV.  I think you'd wear out the fast forward button though.

I'm not that Keen!  I mean more of what Matt did with his thread "Linkwitz Riley filter proposal".  Shared an idea, got some feedback (not that I care but some other did).  Post a thread on ideas, get some feedback, do what you want.

[Arindelle]

The beta forums should only be used for beta-specific feedback (ie. things that directly relate to beta versions), and general discussions and suggestions kept to the main board, so anyone can participate.

Agreed.  It's important to feedback from a broad audience rather than just the tin foil team.

  Ah, ok. I get it. I really never understood that before. I was wondering why things felt different lately and all these posts being moved to the main boards right away.

[JimH]

I moved this from the beta board.