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[jmone]

Almost 4,000 people pledged $370K for Silicondust to create a PVR & Client SW.

The aim if for them to develop a software suite that will:
- Record TV Streams (cross platform OS support)
- Client delivery of transcoded streams (cross platform OS support + Kodi Plugin)

A couple of things strike me on this:
- They had no probs raising pretty good coin in a short period
- They hit "stretch" goals including a Kodi Plug without issue
- I don't see anything in what they want to do that I can not already do with MC and EOS using their HW (sure : the current MC eco system could be better refined/expanded than it currently is to push live transcoded TV around to all client OS but...... $370K seems like a lot of cheddar)

Did you (JR) have any discussion with SD on this (from memory I believe you have spoken on the HW side before)

Thanks
Nathan

[astromo]

A couple of things strike me on this:
- I don't see anything in what they want to do that I can not already do with MC and EOS using their HW (sure : the current MC eco system could be better refined/expanded than it currently is to push live transcoded TV around to all client OS but...... $370K seems like a lot of cheddar)

That's why I didn't see that there was any point in kicking anything into the tin. The other aspect of their deal is an option to integrate with a NAS vendor to record/stream to/from a storage device.


... oh, by the way, welcome back from your Italian Vespa Holiday. I hope you had a great time and didn't come unstuck on any wet, Roman cobblestone roads

[Hendrik]

MC will never be able to officially support/license encrypted recording or playback, unless we develop a entire new "secure" playback chain without using open-source components and use DRM to store and transmit video over the network (which would make MC as crippled as any other TV thing), which seems unlikely to ever happen. The TV industry is quite stubborn with their DRM requirements, and will not be shy to sue you if you screw up.

.. and people want to watch their encrypted TV channels.

Which is also where I think this SD PVR will cause a bunch of people to get annoyed later on when they notice that a whole lot of their promised functionality isn't going to be available for protected/encrypted content.
SD carefully worded their campaign in such a way that they can exclude any of the advanced functionality for protected content. Not sure everyone really caught on to that.

[Matt]

If you raise $370k, how does that translate to ownership?

I mean, do the people that pledged have a share of the company after that and are entitled to a share of any profits moving forward?  And if they're part owners, what happens to them if the company runs in the red?

[Hendrik]

They only get the rewards outlined on the Kickstarter page, depending on the amount they pledged. If the company goes under before delivering anything, then the money is potentially lost.
After they got their rewards, there are no further obligations.

Some Kickstarter projects never make it, and the money may be partially lost, partially refunded, an incomplete result delivered, or whatever, but thats a risk thats clearly communicated on Kickstarter, and every campaign usually has a section talking about the risks and challenges of the project (although many people probably don't realize that a project may not make it).

See here:
https://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter%20basics#Acco

[jmone]

These Kickstarter projects are really just pre-purchases, In SD's case the most popular were:
- $30 gets you 1 year sub to the SW 1 month early to public release
- $60 gets you 1 year sub to the SW + betas and ability to provide feedback during dev (aka the Beta Team)

They then had higher tiers bundling in the hardware.

A parallel in MC's world could be a kickstarter to see how much interest there would be for say an IOS/Andriod Client.  People would pledge an amount and if the target is made you would do the dev.  The upside is you will then see what level of suppor there is + the funds upfront to allow for the acquisition of resources.  The big downside is KickStarter takes 5% if your project is funded. 

[glynor]

These Kickstarter projects are really just pre-purchases

They're not even purchases. They're donations, effectively. There's no guarantee you'll get anything from the deal at all, and lots of Kickstarter projects, even those that get fully funded, never deliver anything.

It is a great deal for the "developers" because the rule is essentially:

Go on, take the money and run. (Ooh ooh ooh.)

[Hendrik]

You could sue them if they don't deliver anything at all, Kickstarter explicitly leaves that door open, not sure if anyone ever tried.

[jmone]

...any way, the point is there seems to be an appetite in the general user community to (successfully) fund sw dev in some cases ... though I still fail to see what hole the SD one fills!

I think it is an interesting model as you get to see what support a particular idea has, and if successful you get funding commitment up front.  An obvious example would be to test the market for a iOS/Andriod client as these are sold separately.  Thinking wider, you could even use it to test stuff like BD Menu dev, if you got enough commitment you would dev the feature (as a separate unlock feature in MC) that later users could then buy.   .... or DLNA V2 etc.

[astromo]

...any way, the point is there seems to be an appetite in the general user community to (successfully) fund sw dev in some cases ... though I still fail to see what hole the SD one fills!

I think it is an interesting model as you get to see what support a particular idea has, and if successful you get funding commitment up front.  An obvious example would be to test the market for a iOS/Andriod client as these are sold separately.  Thinking wider, you could even use it to test stuff like BD Menu dev, if you got enough commitment you would dev the feature (as a separate unlock feature in MC) that later users could then buy.   .... or DLNA V2 etc.

I've observed the methodology used by an Ozzie mob selling a bicycle video camera/light geared for capturing footage in the event of a crash. They delivered a rear unit first. Then levered off that KS to deliver MkII via standard methods and then KS a front vid cam/light. They went for a staged release giving the early adopters a $ benefit (pseudo discount) - they sort of auctioned off various, limited release, discount packages, in effect. In their case, they could point to a track record so there KS was well subscribed. The front facing unit hasn't made it to market yet but I wouldn't think it's a major risk.

My point is that if you're not a dodgy, fly by night concern then you can use your credibility and some reward strategies to get the paying user base to get enthusiastic. Done right, it can work well.

[glynor]

You could sue them if they don't deliver anything at all, Kickstarter explicitly leaves that door open, not sure if anyone ever tried.

Agreed, and there have been some attempts. The biggest problem is that, as a backer, you have no visibility into who the other backers are, or what they may or may not have received. So, it is incredibly difficult to form yourself into a "class" and take them to court. Plus, in most cases where projects collapse, by the time you get everything assembled to sue, there is no entity (or bank account) left to sue. The article on Ars I linked above goes into a bunch of the issues on that end.

I'm not suggesting Kickstarter is "bad" at all.  But, to answer this question:

I mean, do the people that pledged have a share of the company after than and are entitled to a share of any profits moving forward?

It does not. Just ask the people who backed Oculus. Backers should be entitled to some kind of product (as Nathan indicated, like a pre-purchase), but there is no guarantee, and it is very difficult to enforce this if the devs disappear or their company collapses. This can, and does happen.

[Hilton]

FTC sued this kickstarter scammer which kind of had a happy ending or sorts. Backers got most of their money back and a free version of the board game that was released by another company that took over the assets.
 
There are other cases out there too that don't end so well.

I think most people don't realise that kickstarter is no guarantee that a product will be completed even if the project meets its funding goals.
Many projects are over ambitious and under estimate the time and money required to complete a project.

"Caveat Emptor"  Buyer beware.

http://www.reaxxion.com/9650/ftc-sues-scammer-behind-failed-kickstarter

[Hilton]

PS. Im considering a modest kickstarter campaign for my Pi brick to fund the tooling and outsourcing some of the PCB and case design and construction but I haven't finished the design work and costs yet.
I've been occupied with other "life stuff" and just enjoying my prototype.

Plan to get back into it next month, as it's end of financial year and work is frantic at the moment.

[astromo]

Didn't Pono use some king of crowd funding mechanism?

In that case, I'm sure there were plenty of people who relied on Neil Young's reputation to underwrite their contribution.

[JimH]

It seems like a lot of money, but if you consider that they're pre-selling hardware and software, it isn't.  Spread out over a year, it's not much, although I do think it's a sign of significant interest.  Probably people who've been using WMC for years.  Maybe all of them.  

We've talked with Silicondust several times, but they never seemed engaged, and the last few times I contacted them, they didn't respond.  The Kickstarter campaign explains why.

One of their founders, Nick, is a very talented developer.  Given enough time, he'll produce results.

It's too bad we couldn't work with them.  I think they would have been a good partner.

I wish them well in their attempt to re-invent our wheel.  It will take a while.

[jmone]

I've engaged with Nick a few times on their forum and I do like their concept of a Network Based Tuner (just received the latest DBV-T tuner to replace the original model).  I was waiting for their DLNA/Transcode box but after several false starts it has been removed.  I'm guessing they could not get it to work reliably in firmware and hence decided to move to a SW soln (hence the kickstarter).  They should have talked to JR IMO as they will end up with a SW soln that just does Time / Place / Format shift for TV (FTA and Cable).   No matter how good it is, it is just TV.

[JimH]

I use their network tuner.  It works well.