Topic: (Buffering) Problems with Client & Server (Read 7757 times)

StuckMojo · « **on:** July 03, 2015, 07:19:03 am »

Hi,

is there somewhere a 'best setting for Client & Server'?
Already studied many 'Network' and 'weird things' thread. but no solution did help until now.
And installing the OS again should not be necessary, because i installed it a few days ago.
Client: Windows 8.1 Bing
Server: Windows 8.1 Pro x64
Using RED October Standard. HQ ist too heavy for this pc.

Until now i tried many things, but i still have buffering issues.
I know the Client is not a Power HTPC (Orbsmart AW-01), but should work.
Even with music files (flac) i have buffering issues every few seconds.

Tested the whole thing with Kodi 14.2 -> No problems, even a 1080p Movie (.mkv) with 30Gb played fine without buffering issues.

What's the problem here?

PS:
I made a test in Standard View (Before it was Theatre View). It is working better. There are only a few clicks, when the next song is starting every now and then.
But that shouldn't be the problem. In Theatre View the CPU is between 15-25% when playing a song. Not much difference as in standard view.
Theatre View hangs often when scrolling through Library in Theatre View. But CPU Load isn't that high in Theatre View.

For testing i deactivated all Windows Firewalls. No Antivirus software is running. Really nothing.
And i already increased buffering size to 1 second for my audio device. Didn't help.
Also tested files that are stored on a local drive with MC. They are playing fine. As i said, with Kodi i have no problems playing files over the network.
What could be the problem? ? Router is a Fritzbox 7390

Any help would be GREAT!!! Thanks.

JimH · « **Reply #1 on:** July 03, 2015, 07:43:55 am »

If you're getting buffering with FLAC files, something may be wrong at the network level. Antivirus is also a possibility.

Are you using 20.0.124?
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=98433.0

flac.rules · « **Reply #2 on:** July 03, 2015, 08:04:00 am »

Doesn't seem like its your network bandwidth directly, since it works fine in KODI, nor the AV since you have tried disabling that.

Have you tried "use local files if available" and mapping up the drive, and seeing if that makes a difference? Maybe also disabling qos in the router?

JimH · « **Reply #3 on:** July 03, 2015, 08:22:08 am »

Disabling antivirus software is often not enough. Uninstalling it is the only way to know whether antivirus software is the problem.

Here's a long list of problems caused by antivirus software.

StuckMojo · « **Reply #4 on:** July 03, 2015, 10:03:05 am »

As i wrote: 'No Antivirus software is running'. On Server and Client!

Bevore installing an AV i wanted to test it, if all is working normal.

@Elvis133:
Have you tried "use local files if available" and mapping up the drive

Yes i have. I have really tried a lot right now..... ? I tried both 'Client & Server' AND mapped all drives localy.
Same behaviour.

Sorry, i think i didn't describe it clear enough:
There is no buffering Message in MC 20.0.124 when it happens, but it looks like it doesn't get the files fast enough. Play,short stop (sec), clicks (distortion), playing again, and so on, sometimes more, sometimes less distortions.....
What is really strange is that Theatre View is reacting really slow and hangs sometimes when browsing through library when playing music.
But CPU load is not that high in this situation.

PS:
Tried it now with an older Version (MC 17) and it's working normal... ? Also Theater View Browsing works. Perhaps a littlebit slower than i know it before (Other HTPC), but without hanging.
Did something big change that i've not seen between this two versions that is about playing files over network.

Arindelle · « **Reply #5 on:** July 03, 2015, 10:15:05 am »

note was writing this but I see you responded already so some of it is not valid like the av stuff ... have to run don't have time to re-write .. just to clarify by mapping I'm referring to a network drive like Z:\Music and Y:\Video etc not UNC paths like \\server\\. So If you have a PC running as server you would have to repoint the library too. The reload the library from the client

Quote from: Elvis133 on July 03, 2015, 08:04:00 am

Have you tried "use local files if available" and mapping up the drive, and seeing if that makes a difference?

That helped me a lot back in the day ... I'd try that first. Rebuild thumbnails afterwards could give you more fluid behavior if you have lots of media files too.

Like Jim said, I'd guess it is probably a network bottleneck issue of some kind. Try and figure out what is taking up the most resources. Flac file playback shouldn't be a problem. But an AV scanning a network drive all the time could be ...

Another thing is to try and turn off all DSPs you might have running. Upsampling/parametric eq, and room effects especially ... some of them will really lag the program over a slow network. Maybe volume leveling if you are using a lot of playlists. Kodi etc; will not have the DSP options and could explain why they work but not JRiver That being said however, with flac files and lots of DSPs normally you'd have buffering lag between songs not in the middle of them.

I also would make an exclusion rule to your AV to not include scanning network drives especially for flac files (or other media files btw). "Disabling" an AV in my experience is often not enough. To really test you often have to uninstall ... but exclusion rules usually take care of the issues without having to go through that.

Powerline (plug) network connection can be dodgy and sometimes intermittent. So can WIFI for video files .. go hard wired 1gb if you can.

You might also want to toy with toggling off and on the memory option. This should't make much difference, but maybe if you have 4 gb or more of RAM on the client, might help with buffering in the middle of songs/films .. not sure.

Finally you could turn off the auto sync function to see if that helps.

In my experience it is the GPU usage more than the CPU usage that can indirectly hog the network and your clients resources. Doesn't matter if it is audio or video playback necessarily.

PS - Oh and make sure you display drivers are up to date (and all your drivers btw).

Arindelle · « **Reply #6 on:** July 03, 2015, 10:22:31 am »

PS just saw that theater view is causing some issues ... what you describe is often linked to old drivers -- especially if you have crashes or long pauses... fast scrolling through thousands of thumbnails on a slow network with an old or underpowered on board gpu is going ot be problematic at best. With old drivers it could be a real mess. Ever see an error message about 3D drawing btw??

StuckMojo · « **Reply #7 on:** July 03, 2015, 10:43:55 am »

I see i can try a few things more. Could it be that MC dioesn't 'like' the hardware, but seems to work with MC17?

Graphic: Intel HD Graphics (Bay Trail, 313 - 646 MHz) (Theatre View Problems?)

Sound: Intel SST Audio Device (WDM) (Audio interruptions)

Drivers are the latest ones.

JimH · « **Reply #8 on:** July 03, 2015, 10:45:08 am »

Try this thread for ideas:

http://tinyurl.com/ck9svg

JimH · « **Reply #9 on:** July 03, 2015, 10:53:32 am »

There's no such thing as "doesn't like the hardware". If the hardware runs Windows, it should work.

Maybe you could run a benchmark and post the results. It's under the Help menu in MC.

StuckMojo · « **Reply #10 on:** July 03, 2015, 11:06:58 am »

Now tried to switch from Direct Sound to Wasapi and it works nearly normal. Sometimes audio stops for really short a moment.
Not perfect, but much better than before. Theatre View is also working normal with this setting, why???

But now i can't control volume on the pc anymore. Only with TV or AV Receiver. Not the best solution until now...

Arindelle · « **Reply #11 on:** July 03, 2015, 11:15:30 am »

Quote from: StuckMojo on July 03, 2015, 10:43:55 am

I see i can try a few things more. Could it be that MC dioesn't 'like' the hardware, but seems to work with MC17?

Graphic: Intel HD Graphics (Bay Trail, 313 - 646 MHz) (Theatre View Problems?)

with the number of thumbnails I can put up in theater veiw I can crash Theater mode at will on an i5 an an HD 2500 graphics chip which is a lot faster than yours ... however, I don't think there are any drastic changes if you are using a standard skin) since version 17 except the re-sizing stuff added recently....

Quote

Sound: Intel SST Audio Device (WDM) (Audio interruptions)

when you say WDM do you mean that you have the "JRIver WDM" set as default for ALL playback not just local streaming?! If that is the case, you will have clicks and stuff as you probably adjusted the latency fro audio video syncing. I would create a zone switch rule and use another driver for local/network playback of flac and video files. Actually if you have really low settings configured this could be your primary problem ... euh of course if you are referring to the default Intel device this shouldn't be an issue

Quote

Now tried to switch from Direct Sound to Wasapi and it works nearly normal.

If you are using WASAPI with the MC WDM driver and the Direct Sound without this would make sense. If this is the case try another output still using Wasapi other than WDM like something like Realtek Opitcal Out HD or the equivalent? Also the JRiver driver didn't exist in version 17 ... just guessing still tho ....

muzicman0 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 03, 2015, 11:26:43 am »

I have seen something similar when I was using the MC20 WDM driver as my default sound device in Windows. Everything became very sluggish. Check The windows sound device, and if it is set to the JRiver device, change it and see if it makes a difference.

flac.rules · « **Reply #13 on:** July 03, 2015, 11:37:22 am »

Quote from: JimH on July 03, 2015, 10:53:32 am

There's no such thing as "doesn't like the hardware". If the hardware runs Windows, it should work.

Maybe you could run a benchmark and post the results. It's under the Help menu in MC.

A lot of the suggestions in the thread are about potential hardware-problems even though he has no problem with other software, or earlier versions of the software. I would guess that is what he means with "doesn't like the hardware".

flac.rules · « **Reply #14 on:** July 03, 2015, 11:46:39 am »

It is very interesting if its the WDM-driver, but only when it is over the network, could windows throttling network to keep audio realtime that is part of the problem?

Arindelle · « **Reply #15 on:** July 03, 2015, 12:06:38 pm »

Quote from: Elvis133 on July 03, 2015, 11:46:39 am

It is very interesting if its the WDM-driver, but only when it is over the network, could windows throttling network to keep audio realtime that is part of the problem?

maybe, probably ... euh don't know

Its logical that low settings are going to be exagerated over a LAN rather than from a local drive in the playback PC ... could definately be responsible cracks and pops -- not sure about buffering "lags"

As most people have to set buffering and latency very low for syncing, if you have qudio glitches you want to have much higher values network or local ... my understanding, and I'm open to correction here, but the WDM driver enables you to use the playback engine of JRiver without using the arduous loopback functionality that already existed. It shouldn't be used for audio playback other than from the internet.

People kept asking the same question over and over in the WDM thread - it shouldn't affect local and LAN playback because normally people shouldn't be using it for that anyways

muzicman0 · « **Reply #16 on:** July 03, 2015, 12:16:21 pm »

What proof do we have that it is actually a network problem? He says theater view is sluggish also...wouldn't that suggest that something else is going on? Or did I miss something...I admit I didn't ready every post...

If the network is working with other software (IE: Kodi), then it at least implies that this is not a network problem.

flac.rules · « **Reply #17 on:** July 03, 2015, 12:24:46 pm »

Quote from: muzicman0 on July 03, 2015, 12:16:21 pm

What proof do we have that it is actually a network problem? He says theater view is sluggish also...wouldn't that suggest that something else is going on? Or did I miss something...I admit I didn't ready every post...

If the network is working with other software (IE: Kodi), then it at least implies that this is not a network problem.

As far as I can see, not that much, because it works fine with other programs and earlier versions, maybe the network is somehow connected in a more complex way though, as local files work, but it doesn't seem to be a pure network performance problem.

muzicman0 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 03, 2015, 12:33:26 pm »

I just looked at the specs of the PC...interesting. Fairly light powered, and the GPU on the CPU is very underpowered. It may just not be able to handle everything that is being thrown at it.

I would normally probably blame that it is a WiFi connection, but since Kodi works streamed over the network, I can only assume that the wireless connection is fairly stable.

flac.rules · « **Reply #19 on:** July 03, 2015, 12:54:28 pm »

A quad core should be able handle playing music pretty easily, besides it works fine locally, also with video. If the CPU is the problem, seems like something is using more CPU power than it should.

muzicman0 · « **Reply #20 on:** July 03, 2015, 12:56:24 pm »

true enough.

Arindelle · « **Reply #21 on:** July 03, 2015, 01:01:05 pm »

Quote from: muzicman0 on July 03, 2015, 12:16:21 pm

What proof do we have that it is actually a network problem? He says theater view is sluggish also...wouldn't that suggest that something else is going on? Or did I miss something...I admit I didn't ready every post...

If the network is working with other software (IE: Kodi), then it at least implies that this is not a network problem.

hey euh no there is no "proof" of anything -- but saying because it works with other software you can't deduce it is NOT a network problem either. Most of these type of issues are either network related, or AV related (the av scanning all network drives.

IF there is a bottleneck in the network, or the network is really slow/intermittent, faster machines can sometimes cope with it ... depending on how JRiver is set up -- if you are using JRiver to upsample to 192k, using enhanced "arena" setting in DSP studio, then add a low latency config of the WDM driver being used as a standard playback driver on the client ... well JRiver is going to be more demanding than Kodi ... not going to say bloated in comparison, but more demanding. The CPU should be ok on red october standard and flac .. the GPU is very light

I suppose you can say it is not a network issue per se, but a configuration problem linked to a slow network ... whatever. if the OP only has the problem on the client and not on the server PC it becomes more semantic. Without input on clarifying the WDM driver, his DSP config, and maybe how he is accessing his network, w'ere just spinning our wheels here IMHO

on that note it is cocktail time !!!

flac.rules · « **Reply #22 on:** July 03, 2015, 01:10:45 pm »

Quote from: Arindelle on July 03, 2015, 01:01:05 pm

hey euh no there is no "proof" of anything -- but saying because it works with other software you can't deduce it is NOT a network problem either. Most of these type of issues are either network related, or AV related (the av scanning all network drives.

IF there is a bottleneck in the network, or the network is really slow/intermittent, faster machines can sometimes cope with it ... depending on how JRiver is set up -- if you are using JRiver to upsample to 192k, using enhanced "arena" setting in DSP studio, then add a low latency config of the WDM driver being used as a standard playback driver on the client ... well JRiver is going to be more demanding than Kodi ... not going to say bloated in comparison, but more demanding. The CPU should be ok on red october standard and flac .. the GPU is very light

I suppose you can say it is not a network issue per se, but a configuration problem linked to a slow network ... whatever. if the OP only has the problem on the client and not on the server PC it becomes more semantic. Without input on clarifying the WDM driver, his DSP config, and maybe how he is accessing his network, w'ere just spinning our wheels here IMHO

on that note it is cocktail time !!!

It could also quite probably be a combined problem, MC might handle some network thing poorer than other programs, network combines with the WDM-driver and so on (pure speculation at this point of course), the point is that no single thing might be the only culprit, even if it works without a network setup.

StuckMojo · « **Reply #23 on:** July 03, 2015, 05:22:57 pm »

Quote from: muzicman0 on July 03, 2015, 12:33:26 pm

I just looked at the specs of the PC...interesting. Fairly light powered, and the GPU on the CPU is very underpowered. It may just not be able to handle everything that is being thrown at it.

I would normally probably blame that it is a WiFi connection, but since Kodi works streamed over the network, I can only assume that the wireless connection is fairly stable.

Tried it with an USB-LAN Adapter and WIFI. Both have the same problems.
But with an external USB-WIFI adapter with 300Mbit. The internal wifi hardware works but is not fast at all.
With Kodi and Wifi adapter there was no problem with the 30Gb MKV Video file. Streamed fine.
The only DSP settings i use are volume related. Adaptive Volume and Normalize Audio.
On the server side runs an Dual Core AMD CPU with 2Ghz, 4Gb Ram and Onboard Graphic Card.
I watched the Sytem behaviour on both sides when streaming media, but didn't see any heavy load on both sides.

The HDMI Stick works really fantastic with Kodi (really fast). Even streaming music over network with Visualizations works fine.
Would be nice if i could achieve this with mc. Kodi can't compare with mc -> Managing Librarys, Tagging, Zones, Audio output,etc....

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Author Topic: (Buffering) Problems with Client & Server (Read 7757 times)