Topic: WASAPI and Windows sounds (Read 20343 times)

DocLotus · « **on:** August 11, 2015, 10:14:27 pm »

I changed my souid in MC form Default Audio Device [Direct Sound] to Realtek High Definition Audio [WASAPI].

It cured an audio echo problem I was having while changing MCTV channels but now a new problem has cropped up. As soon as MC loads all my other Windows audio dies... no YouTube sound, no C-Net video sound, no Windows dings, dongs etc. My THX software also has no effect under WASAPI but works perfectly under Direct Sound.

I have looked at Windows Sound in the Control Panel but see nothing wrong there.

How do I get Windows sound with WASAPI?

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #1 on:** August 11, 2015, 10:25:06 pm »

Quote from: DocLotus on August 11, 2015, 10:14:27 pm

How do I get Windows sound with WASAPI?

http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/WASAPI

Uncheck Open device for exclusive access and that should do it. Also, you should read this article in the Wiki about what happens when you disable exclusive access: http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Exclusive_access

You might be best off sticking with DirectSound.

RoderickGI · « **Reply #2 on:** August 12, 2015, 01:23:40 am »

Or leave the audio output in MC set to Realtek High Definition Audio [WASAPI] in exclusive mode, and set the JRiver WDM driver as the default audio device in Windows.

That isn't perfect, as shown by many threads on the topic. The WDM driver has a little bit of lag that prevents very short Windows sounds from playing properly, at least on my system, because by the time MC and my receiver have responded to the sound, it is over. I rarely hear Windows dings on my HTPC, and only if there are no other sounds playing. Direct sounds allows Windows to mix sound sources in real time, but also mucks around with your sound all it likes. If you noticed an improvement in sound quality with WASAPI, you may want to try to stay with it, and use the WDM driver.

You will get sound from YouTube, C-NET and other videos, etc., all processed through MC, so you will have all the control available in MC, when you use the WDM Audio Driver.

DocLotus · « **Reply #3 on:** August 12, 2015, 10:58:32 am »

Awesome Donkey; thanks, that did the trick.

Quote

Uncheck Open device for exclusive access and that should do it

I had unchecked "Open device for exclusive access" last night but it did not allow Windows sounds to be heard. This morning it does work correctly; don't know what has changed (I was a little tired last night so I might have messed up somewhere).

The links were great, I had already read the one on WASAPI but not the one on Exclusive Access. That answered a lot of questions I had about WASAPI in general.

Quote

You might be best off sticking with DirectSound.

Can't go back; the reason for going to WASAPI is to resolve the massive audio echoing & stuttering I have been having over many years with MCTV channel changing. For some reason WASAPI fixes that problem for me. It seems that DirectSound does not mute the sound when doing a MCTV channel change while WASAPI does mute the sound which completely eliminates the echoing & stuttering.

DocLotus · « **Reply #4 on:** August 12, 2015, 11:09:59 am »

Quote

When Exclusive Access is enabled, then:
When you start playback, Media Center sends an exclusive-mode stream. If another audio device is currently using the audio hardware, the request for exclusive access is rejected, and playback fails.

Not so in MC21. My experience is as soon as MC21 (with WASAPI) is loaded it kills all other audio even if MC21 is not playing any music. MC21 (with WASAPI) totally dominates & overrides all other sound sources.

Quote

While playback is active (including while paused) in Media Center, no other application on the system can use the specified audio device. Applications that attempt to play sound (such as system sounds or a web browser) will typically be automatically assigned to an alternate (perhaps disconnected) audio output on the computer, or playback will fail entirely.

That is true.

Quote

As soon as playback is stopped in Media Center, the audio device again becomes available to the system for use by other applications.

False; I wish that was so but it is not in MC21. My experience is as soon as MC21 (with WASAPI) is loaded it kills all other audio even if MC21 is not playing any music. MC21 (with WASAPI) totally dominates & overrides all other sound sources.

The WIKI for WASAPI needs updating.

mwillems · « **Reply #5 on:** August 12, 2015, 11:28:23 am »

Quote from: DocLotus on August 12, 2015, 11:09:59 am

Not so in MC21. My experience is as soon as MC21 (with WASAPI) is loaded it kills all other audio even if MC21 is not playing any music. MC21 (with WASAPI) totally dominates & overrides all other sound sources.

False; I wish that was so but it is not in MC21. My experience is as soon as MC21 (with WASAPI) is loaded it kills all other audio even if MC21 is not playing any music. MC21 (with WASAPI) totally dominates & overrides all other sound sources.

The WIKI for WASAPI needs updating.

Slow down a little; you probably have a configuration issue. I didn't write the wiki, but the wiki is correct for almost every device I've tested with WASAPI (literal dozens of sound devices). I think you might need to explain a little more about your test methodology.

Some "gotchas": pause is not the same as stop. Pause leaves MC in control of the audio stream (it is effectively "playing silence") and no external sound will play; stop relinquishes control of the device and other windows sounds can play. I only use exclusive audio (mostly WASAPI, some ASIO) in MC and use MC on several computers on a daily basis; MC gives up the device if you press stop and windows sounds work fine for me.

Additionally, check and make sure your windows default audio device is what you think it is. Are you using the JRiver WDM driver without realizing it? Is this something that wasn't an issue with WASAPI in MC20 but is an issue in MC21?

The only times I've ever encountered MC "blocking" system sounds when stopped (other than a misconfigured WDM driver) are:

1) Very occasionally when a browser is currently trying to play audio at the same time that MC relinquishes exclusive control of the device, sometimes sound won't "cut in" until the browser is reopened or the web content is restarted.
2) I had a particular sound device that would occasionally get "stuck" such that nothing could play to it once it was opened in exclusive mode. This included MC (i.e. if I played in exclusive, pressed stop, and tried to start playback again, MC wouldn't even play). That device was defective, and I've never seen another device react that way (including another instance of the same "model" of device).

DocLotus · « **Reply #6 on:** August 12, 2015, 12:50:13 pm »

Quote

When Exclusive Access is enabled, then:
When you start playback, Media Center sends an exclusive-mode stream. If another audio device is currently using the audio hardware, the request for exclusive access is rejected, and playback fails.

The above tells me that "If another audio device is currently using the audio hardware, the request for exclusive access is rejected, and playback fails." My experience is very simple... as soon as MC loads (Play, Pause, Stopped or no music ever played) just loading MC kills all other sounds in Windows.
EXAMPLE: YouTube, C-net, etc is playing (sound & video), I load MC, YouTube, C-net, etc goes to no sound.

Quote

As soon as playback is stopped in Media Center, the audio device again becomes available to the system for use by other applications.

My comment stands as before... The other audio device does not become available as soon as MC21 is stopped. I wish that was so but it is not in MC21. My experience is as soon as MC21 (with WASAPI) is loaded it kills all other audio even if MC21 is not playing any music. MC21 (with WASAPI) totally dominates & overrides all other sound sources.

Also I have noticed that as soon as MC21 loads (with WASAPI) any YouTube video not only ceases to play sound but locks up the video until MC21 is exited.

All Windows Sound settings were with Realtek High Definition Audio setting & not JRiver Mc21 WDM driver.

DocLotus · « **Reply #7 on:** August 12, 2015, 01:12:38 pm »

Quote

Or leave the audio output in MC set to Realtek High Definition Audio [WASAPI] in exclusive mode, and set the JRiver WDM driver as the default audio device in Windows.

I'm working on that now, if I can ever get it working it would be the best of both worlds.

I now have JRiver Media Center 21 selected in Windows Sound as the default device, shows the device is working properly, & that it is a JRiverWMDDRIVER.inf driver.

Problem is there is no sound from anything other then MC21 (music, TV, etc). All Windows sounds are missing in action. It makes no difference if MC21 is loaded or not or is playing music or not.

ferday · « **Reply #8 on:** August 12, 2015, 01:25:25 pm »

I use another audio device (different speakers) for Windows sound and if I ever want it on the big system I just change the default in Windows

All of my jriver stuff is either wasapi or Asio and I don't have issue with it locking out other sounds...

DocLotus · « **Reply #9 on:** August 12, 2015, 01:30:41 pm »

It's most likely some little overlooked setting that is causing my problems... I have confidence that the guys in this wonderful forum will figure it out sooner or later & I'll bonk myself on the head and say something unrepeatable here.

JimH · « **Reply #10 on:** August 12, 2015, 01:43:42 pm »

Quote from: DocLotus on August 12, 2015, 01:12:38 pm

Problem is there is no sound from anything other then MC21 (music, TV, etc). All Windows sounds are missing in action.

That's because you probably still have it set to Exclusive mode, because that's what exclusive means.

DocLotus · « **Reply #11 on:** August 12, 2015, 01:50:30 pm »

Quote

That's because you probably still have it set to Exclusive mode, because that's what exclusive means.

Tried it both ways... after exiting MC & reloading same no Windows sound under WDM.

JimH · « **Reply #12 on:** August 12, 2015, 01:53:59 pm »

WDM doesn't care what your MC sound output is set to.

Try rebooting.

DocLotus · « **Reply #13 on:** August 12, 2015, 01:57:30 pm »

What I'm trying to set up is what RoderickGI came up with...

Quote

Or leave the audio output in MC set to Realtek High Definition Audio [WASAPI] in exclusive mode, and set the JRiver WDM driver as the default audio device in Windows.

That isn't perfect, as shown by many threads on the topic. The WDM driver has a little bit of lag that prevents very short Windows sounds from playing properly, at least on my system, because by the time MC and my receiver have responded to the sound, it is over. I rarely hear Windows dings on my HTPC, and only if there are no other sounds playing. Direct sounds allows Windows to mix sound sources in real time, but also mucks around with your sound all it likes. If you noticed an improvement in sound quality with WASAPI, you may want to try to stay with it, and use the WDM driver.

You will get sound from YouTube, C-NET and other videos, etc., all processed through MC, so you will have all the control available in MC, when you use the WDM Audio Driver.

DocLotus · « **Reply #14 on:** August 12, 2015, 02:14:18 pm »

Quote

Try rebooting.

Done... several times. Still no windows sounds under WDM.

Switched back to Realtek High Definition Audio & Windows sounds returned (with Exclusive Access unchecked).

Any other ideas?

JimH · « **Reply #15 on:** August 12, 2015, 02:19:23 pm »

Try setting up WDM again. There should be no relationship between WDM and WASAPI. WDM is an input. WASAPI is an output.

DocLotus · « **Reply #16 on:** August 12, 2015, 02:24:47 pm »

When you say "Try setting up WDM again." is there anything I need to do other than select it from the Windows sound dialog? I have re-selected WDM three times all with no Windows sound.

Hendrik · « **Reply #17 on:** August 12, 2015, 02:47:48 pm »

Windows sounds may be too short for the WDM to catch them properly, its not designed for that.

DocLotus · « **Reply #18 on:** August 12, 2015, 02:54:27 pm »

Quote

Windows sounds may be too short for the WDM to catch them properly, its not designed for that.

I'm more concerned that YouTube, C-net, etc videos have no sound under WDM.

glynor · « **Reply #19 on:** August 12, 2015, 03:33:43 pm »

This all sounds like driver bugs, and if you are using onboard RealTek audio, I wouldn't be surprised. Their drivers, especially the Windows Update ones, are often troublesome.

I'd strongly suggest updating the driver from Realtek.

DocLotus · « **Reply #20 on:** August 12, 2015, 03:43:53 pm »

Quote

I'd strongly suggest updating the driver from Realtek.

They are the latest. Have been working well otherwise.

Jim, suggested this...

Quote

Try setting up WDM again.

Do you know if there is anything else I need to do here? Other than select it from the Windows sound dialog?

glynor · « **Reply #21 on:** August 12, 2015, 03:47:23 pm »

Maybe their current ones are buggy then. Might need to try some older ones.

When WASAPI Exclusive isn't releasing the lock like that, it is usually the driver. I've seen it myself with Realtek audio outputs.

It could also be that something is playing silent audio through the WDM driver....

DocLotus · « **Reply #22 on:** August 12, 2015, 03:54:47 pm »

Thanks for the feedback.

WASAPI plays fine with Exclusive Access unchecked if that makes any difference.

By the way, I've noticed that WASAPI Exclusive Access turned on plays loader than with it off; why is that?

What is the quality difference between Exclusive Access on vs. off?

RoderickGI · « **Reply #23 on:** August 12, 2015, 05:35:09 pm »

Now you are back to the Wiki article on Exclusive Access: http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Exclusive_access
See the section titled: "Issues with Disabling Exclusive Access in WASAPI"

In particular, this paragraph:
If you disable Exclusive Mode in WASAPI on Windows, then you must set Media Center's Output Format DSP to resample all audio to match the format you have selected as the Default Format for the audio device. In WASAPI non-Exclusive mode, the Windows Default Format setting now becomes the only output setting that MC can use, and you must resample all other formats to match this format.

That doesn't quite explain why you aren't getting sound out of YouTube etc., but it make the audio chain more complex, and there could be a problem in the configuration of MC DSP and/or the WDM or RealTek default audio settings. With non-exclusive mode the audio chain is something like:
YouTube > Windows Sound > WDM Driver > MC Audio incl. DSP > Windows Sound > RealTek Driver > Windows Sound > Speakers
I don't know how often or where Windows Sound actually kicks in, I'll leave that to the experts, but it could be as bad as that! I'm a little out of my depth in this area. Perhaps some expert in this area can advise.

Quote from: DocLotus on August 12, 2015, 03:54:47 pm

By the way, I've noticed that WASAPI Exclusive Access turned on plays loader than with it off; why is that?

Because with Exclusive Mode off, Windows Sound can change the audio as it sees fit. So it is at least reducing the volume, perhaps when down mixing, and probably changing the Bitrate and Sampling Frequency.

The disadvantages of non-exclusive mode were the reason I was happy to compromise and effectively lose short Windows sounds, like the Ding, etc. when using the WDM Driver.

DocLotus · « **Reply #24 on:** August 12, 2015, 05:52:08 pm »

Ah, thanks for the feedback.

Quote

Now you are back to the Wiki article on Exclusive Access: http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Exclusive_access
See the section titled: "Issues with Disabling Exclusive Access in WASAPI"

Read that yesterday... most interesting.

I'll re sample all my audio.

Right now I'm running with Exclusive Access off so I can get other windows sounds.

RoderickGI · « **Reply #25 on:** August 12, 2015, 07:37:49 pm »

Yeah, I assumed that you had. But sometimes it takes a second or third read to understand all the implications of what is written.

It still doesn't explain why you have no YouTube sound. But an understanding of the audio chain, and correction of settings, will get you well down that path.

BTW, the Audio Path tool may help in diagnosing the problem. If you are playing a YouTube video with MC in Standard View in the background, you should be able to switch to MC and see what is happening in the Audio Path.

If playing a video within MC, you can right click on the video, then select Player > Audio Path for the same display.

Compare the non-working YouTube and the working MC video Audio Path displays. You may see something amiss.

DocLotus · « **Reply #26 on:** August 12, 2015, 07:57:19 pm »

Ah, thanks. I had been wondering about Audio Path; will give it a try (maybe tomorrow).

DocLotus · « **Reply #27 on:** August 13, 2015, 06:28:01 am »

Quote

BTW, the Audio Path tool may help in diagnosing the problem. If you are playing a YouTube video with MC in Standard View in the background, you should be able to switch to MC and see what is happening in the Audio Path.

Just did that; ran it four ways...
1: Realtek HD Audio [WASAPI]... Exclusive Access OFF (no YouTube videos).
2: Realtek HD Audio [WASAPI]... Exclusive Access ON (no YouTube videos).
3: Realtek HD Audio [WASAPI]... Exclusive Access OFF (playing a YouTube video).
4: Realtek HD Audio [WASAPI]... Exclusive Access ON (playing a YouTube video).

I did a screen capture for all four test and compared them to each other.

Only three things changed for all tests...
1: Adjust volume by... +xx DB for small speaker mode.
2: Output... 48kHz, 32bit, 8 channel using WASAPI, (not a direct connection).
3: Output... 48kHz, 32bit, 8 channel using WASAPI, (direct connection)

DocLotus · « **Reply #28 on:** August 13, 2015, 06:58:33 pm »

Hi guys...

Guess what?

I GOT IT WORKING!!! Happy Days.

Jim (on another thread suggested that...

Quote

It's highly unlikely that a "clean" install would matter.

So I was staying away from another install of MC, but after almost giving up I decided what the heck "Let's go for it" & do an install of MC. IT WORKED!!! As soon as I booted up everything was working including JRiver WDM.

Now as soon as I stop MC from playing all my Windows sounds, including YouTube, plays correctly & that is with WASAPI Exclusive Access turned on.

Boy-oh-boy that is really neat. Now those annoying unwanted C-Net videos that keep blasting away whenever I click on an e-mail link are muted as long as MC is playing. THAT is one wonderful benefit of WASAPI Exclusive Access.

DocLotus · « **Reply #29 on:** August 13, 2015, 07:21:59 pm »

This is also now working correctly...

Quote

Or leave the audio output in MC set to Realtek High Definition Audio [WASAPI] in exclusive mode, and set the JRiver WDM driver as the default audio device in Windows.

That isn't perfect, as shown by many threads on the topic. The WDM driver has a little bit of lag that prevents very short Windows sounds from playing properly, at least on my system, because by the time MC and my receiver have responded to the sound, it is over. I rarely hear Windows dings on my HTPC, and only if there are no other sounds playing. Direct sounds allows Windows to mix sound sources in real time, but also mucks around with your sound all it likes. If you noticed an improvement in sound quality with WASAPI, you may want to try to stay with it, and use the WDM driver.

You will get sound from YouTube, C-NET and other videos, etc., all processed through MC, so you will have all the control available in MC, when you use the WDM Audio Driver.

Roderick mentions the lag time in WDM; I did see a sizable lag in YouTube videos in synchronization of peoples voice & their lip movement. MC TV however did not have that problem most likely due to the fact the TV is part of MC & hence is before WDM so is synchronized.

Either way it is nice to know everything is working correctly.

I want to give a BIG thanks to all who helped me resolve this sticky problem; I could not have done it without you.

INTERACT FORUM

Author Topic: WASAPI and Windows sounds (Read 20343 times)