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[zombie-wmd]

greetings -

Testing trial version of MC 20, under Yosemite on Mac Mini.  Program interrupts shutdown,whether by schedule or on demand.  if the 'Try again' button is pressed then shutdown continues.  Kind of defeats the purpose of scheduling a shutdown.  It becomes more vexing if MC is set to start up automagically.  I'm new to OS X, am I missing a setting either is OS X or MC, or is this a bug?  It's difficult to believe that at this stage in MC 20's life I'm the only one to experience this.

[blgentry]

I've been using MC20 for Mac for quite a while and haven't noticed this.  But there's a GOOD reason for that:  I never shut my Mac down unless it's necessary for system updates or the very rare system problem.  VERY rare.

It's a philosophy difference at work:  PCs need to be routinely shut down to start the OS new again, from a good working state so that everything works properly.  This is completely unnecessary on a Mac.  Macs will happily run for months with no problems.  Maybe you're trying to save power, or you have some other reason.  My philosophy on computers in general is that the fewer times you power them down, the longer they last.  This offsets the minimal cost of powering small machines continuously.  The power supply on my Mac consumes about the same power as a middle of the range light bulb.

I know I didn't address your question directly.  I wanted to explain why I haven't personally seen this issue, nor have I seen it reported here.

Brian.

[Wybe]

I'm using a crontab job for scheduling a forced shutdown. For example: "00 02 * * * /sbin/shutdown -h now" shuts down the Mac mini every morning at 0200 AM.

[avpman]

Same exact problem here. I have my Mac set to restart at various times (the reason is unimportant.) When the shutdown is interrupted it blocks me from remotely accessing the Mac. That creates a BIG problem for me.

[Thebiglebowski]

I do the same thing using power save, schedule it to shutdown at 0000 and restart at 0800 everyday, MC blocks the shutdown at least once a week and have to kill it with the power button.

[zombie-wmd]

Same exact problem here. I have my Mac set to restart at various times (the reason is unimportant.) When the shutdown is interrupted it blocks me from remotely accessing the Mac. That creates a BIG problem for me.

This needs to be addressed by support, rather than getting some discussion on whether to shut or not to shut down OS X.  I'm new here maybe this isn't the place to report bugs?

[zombie-wmd]

Same exact problem here. I have my Mac set to restart at various times (the reason is unimportant.) When the shutdown is interrupted it blocks me from remotely accessing the Mac. That creates a BIG problem for me.

I think others have this problem, or would have this problem if they tested it out.  Other OS X programs have the same flaw and it is a bug.  A Google turns up a discussion on how to fix the code to prevent this.  No longer being a software engineer I didn't bother to read it thru, maybe MC developers could research it further.

[blgentry]

I haven't done any real testing on this myself, as I have explained above.  But I know a bit about Macs and other computers.  The posting by Wybe above looks like a good workaround to me.

I'm using a crontab job for scheduling a forced shutdown. For example: "00 02 * * * /sbin/shutdown -h now" shuts down the Mac mini every morning at 0200 AM.

That line he wrote that starts with the 00 02 is a CRONTAB entry.  That's the native scheduler built in to OS X (and other flavors of Unix).  I would bet that would work just fine and not be stopped by JRiver or any other program being open.

It takes a bit of command line wizard work to make a crontab entry, but it's really not *that* hard.  Here's an article that tells how to make exactly this kind of entry:

http://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/25001/how-can-i-forcibly-shut-down-my-mac-at-an-appointed-time

If necessary I'll try to help anyone who wants to get this working on their system.  No guarantees; just a friendly offer from a fellow forum member.

Brian.

[avpman]

In my case I get a dialog box stating MediaCenter interrupted the shutdown and it offers me an option to "Retry." When I click Retry the Mac promptly shuts down. There may be some housekeeping MC is doing when it's terminated which is delaying the shutdown. The odd thing is I've been using this procedure for over a year and haven't had any problems until the last few builds of MC.

[zombie-wmd]

I haven't done any real testing on this myself, as I have explained above.  But I know a bit about Macs and other computers.  The posting by Wybe above looks like a good workaround to me.

That line he wrote that starts with the 00 02 is a CRONTAB entry.  That's the native scheduler built in to OS X (and other flavors of Unix).  I would bet that would work just fine and not be stopped by JRiver or any other program being open.

It takes a bit of command line wizard work to make a crontab entry, but it's really not *that* hard.  Here's an article that tells how to make exactly this kind of entry:

http://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/25001/how-can-i-forcibly-shut-down-my-mac-at-an-appointed-time

If necessary I'll try to help anyone who wants to get this working on their system.  No guarantees; just a friendly offer from a fellow forum member.

Brian.

Brian -

Thanks for your response, but you're missing, or rather, eluding the point.  MC has a bug that prevents OS X from shutting down.  It isn't a question of finding a work around (otherwise known as a kludge).  I see that you have the title of 'beta tester', I just assumed that you tested out MC releases.  If that's true, do me a solid and test out the problem I (and other posters) are complaining about.  As a 'beta tester' you word will carry more weight than mine, since I've seen no 'official' response to my, and others, complaint.  My apologies if I seemed strident about this, it's the frustration of not be listened to by the 'official' powers that be.

[zombie-wmd]

In my case I get a dialog box stating MediaCenter interrupted the shutdown and it offers me an option to "Retry." When I click Retry the Mac promptly shuts down. There may be some housekeeping MC is doing when it's terminated which is delaying the shutdown. The odd thing is I've been using this procedure for over a year and haven't had any problems until the last few builds of MC.

Exactly my experience.  If there's housekeeping being done by MC, it's taking all night to do it, since I shut down automagically at 11 p.m. and found the interrupt message the next morning.

[blgentry]

Thanks for your response, but you're missing, or rather, eluding the point.  MC has a bug that prevents OS X from shutting down.  It isn't a question of finding a work around (otherwise known as a kludge).

I'm just trying to help.  The shutdown -h now from the command line seems to bypass all of the dialog boxes and checks and things and *just* shuts it down.  I understand that this isn't the same as the built in Energy Saver schedule and doesn't seem like the "included normal thing to do".  But it seems to work.  Moving on...

I see that you have the title of 'beta tester', I just assumed that you tested out MC releases.  If that's true, do me a solid and test out the problem I (and other posters) are complaining about.

I'm very very new to being a beta tester.  I've only tested a couple of releases over about a week period.  As for doing testing on this particular issue:  I've just spent about 40 minutes doing shutdowns.

1.  I've done them manually.
  A.  I've pressed the button to shut down "right now".
  B.  I've waited for the one minute time out and let it shut down after the delay.
2.  I've scheduled shutdowns
  A.  I've pressed the button to shut down right now.
  B.  I've waited for the TEN (10) minute count down and let it shut itself down.
3.  I've done "restart" instead of shutdown with 1A and 1B.
4.  I've down a "sudo shutdown -h now" from Terminal (Applications > Utilities > Terminal).

I probably did 8 or 9 shutdowns and restarts total.  In one or two cases MC was running, but not playing.  In every other case MC was actively playing music when the shutdown happened.

I'm sorry to say that I was unable to reproduce the hang that prevents shutdown.  In every case, MC just closed along with the other applications with no manual intervention and the machine shut down.

Now I *do* know about this issue of an app that stops the shutdown process.  I use a program called iterm2.  Whenever iterm2 is running and I try to shut it down, iterm pops up a box asking me if it's ok to stop it.  If I don't press the OK button, the shutdown will never occur.

I'm going to launch iterm2 now and use the command line method and see if it bypasses iterm2's stop box.  I think it will.  I'll report back in a few minutes.

Brian.

[blgentry]

Ok, just tested "sudo shutdown -h now" twice with iterm2 running.  Once just normally and it shut down right away.  A second time, I tried to shut down using the Apple menu shutdown item.  Iterm2 complained and asked if it was ok.  While that box was up, I did a shutdown -h now, from terminal, and it (relatively) immediately shut the machine down without me clicking on iterm's "ok box".

So I'm pretty sure I've verified that the command line shutdown bypasses all of the checks and boxes and things and "just works".

Sorry I couldn't reproduce the original problem.  I'm not sure if it's due to machine configuration differences, a different version of MC, or both.  For the record I'm running the latest MC20 for Mac, build  20.0.132.

Brian.

[Awesome Donkey]

My apologies if I seemed strident about this, it's the frustration of not be listened to by the 'official' powers that be.

It's not that, it's just some of the developers have been on vacation lately and they're also working on releasing a build of Media Center 21 for the Mac, so these things take time. Even though there's no official response yet, Jim (JRiver's CEO) reads every post on these forums.

Now, I'm wondering if this issue might have something to do with the changes done lately in attempt to workaround the dropouts problem? Perhaps something that was added for that issue is causing this? Nonetheless, I've tried to reproduce this several times, and I was unable to.

[avpman]

If anybody is going to use the cron/shutdown workaround I'd suggest you include a couple of sync commands which cause (at least in the xnix world) the computer to flush it's disk buffers. "Shutdown" in the Unix world is a shell script in which many include the "sync" command. However, on the Mac "shutdown" is an executable binary so I don't know if it flushes disk buffers or not.

In any case, including the "sychs" like this won't hurt anything: (the example below is to restart the Mac)

sudo sync; sync; shutdown -r now

Better safe than sorry...

[zombie-wmd]

I'm just trying to help. 

Brian -

Thanks for your diligence in checking out the bug.  It seems it isn't as straight forward as I thought, as others have the same problem as I do, but you were unable to recreate it.  There is nothing very complicated about my set up, in fact I mostly use my Windows machine.  I was planning to use the Mini almost strictly as a media server.  Maybe the JRiver developers have further insight.

Have a good life.

[Mr ChriZ]

 My philosophy on computers in general is that the fewer times you power them down, the longer they last.  This offsets the minimal cost of powering small machines continuously.  The power supply on my Mac consumes about the same power as a middle of the range light bulb.

Brian.

Off topic but it is generally believed this is a myth nowadays. There's also theories that leaving them on is more likely to cause problems.  There's no easy way to prove it either way.  So it's quite possible you're just wasting energy.  That said most machines have pretty good deep sleep functions now that do turn most of the components off but retain the operational state of the system...so that's potentially a good halfway house. 

[zombie-wmd]

It's not that, it's just some of the developers have been on vacation lately and they're also working on releasing a build of Media Center 21 for the Mac, so these things take time. Even though there's no official response yet, Jim (JRiver's CEO) reads every post on these forums.

Thank your for your reply.  I feel more confident that my issues will eventually be addressed.  This problem occurs every time for me, and it looks like for others, as well.  There's nothing arcane about my Mini.  It was bought new March 2015 and is running the latest Yosemite.  I bought to use strictly as a media server.  There's hardly anything running on it, apart from MC, Firefox, and OS X mail.

While I have your ear - MC frequently crashes on my machine, even when MC is seemingly doing nothing.  E.g., it starts automagically when my machine comes up in the morning and I find the message box that MC crashed sometime during the day.  In the case where I haven't been on the machine but I know that MC was running successfully for a least awhile, because I peeked, it's especially mysterious.  I suspect TimeMachine may be implicated.

Also, I ripped 3 CDs in a row and MC crashed.  WTF?

This isn't my first rodeo.  I have a PC, a MAC mini, and a Raspberry Pi (running Debian Wheezy), all running  MC.  All connected to a Synology NAS, where my media files reside.  The Windows machine is, as one might expect, completely stable.  OS X has it's problems.  On the Pi, MC comes up and completely freezes, but that's a discussion for another time and forum.

I tried using PowerDVD on the PC and returned it for the 30 day money back guarantee once I discovered MC.  While PowerDVD did do the job, I found its interface very 1990's and its video scraper a joke.  Kudos to whoever conceived MC's video scraper.  For info and cover art, not only does it give one the choice of several like named movies with their respective years, but if that is not sufficient one can choose from different data bases.  Very cool.  It was the only scraper that could resolve the Korean movie 'Killers".  All others gave  me the Ashton Kuchin version.  To PowerDVD's credit they gave me a full refund.

For what its worth, I used to use Plex, with the server on my PC and the front end accessed through a Roku channel.  Completely free.  However Plex doesn't handle 1080 very well and I had my suspicions about its 7.1 support. 

For what it's worth, my media needs are currently being met by Kodi, running 24/7, headless on the Pi using OpenElec OS.  I use one of the many available iOS apps to control it.  Movies output to my Onyko through HDMI.  Music travels thru a HiFiBerry to RCA inputs on the Onkyo.  Kodi's front end is primitive, somewhat obscure and baffling, and completely frustrating, but its back end is rock solid.  It runs forever and plays everything I give it, all for free.

Having said all this MC is completely superior.  Interface, abilities, features, and sonic and visual reproduction are head and shoulders above all other offerings.  Definitely, the one to  purchase, in spite of a few warts.

Nice job.

[blgentry]

That said most machines have pretty good deep sleep functions now that do turn most of the components off but retain the operational state of the system...so that's potentially a good halfway house.

That's a very interesting point actually.  One of the things I really like about Mac laptops is that the sleep and wake are SO good.  Wake happens very quickly and has caused very few issues with my machines that I can personally remember. 

So I wonder if scheduling SLEEP instead of shutdown might be a really nice solution for Zombie and the other guys here?  Sleep is one of the selections that can be made in the Energy Saver schedule.  I sleep my Mac quite frequently and have usually had no problems with it at all.  As a BIG bonus, wake from sleep takes something like 20 seconds until full function is returned on my machine.  That's WAY faster than booting from a machine that's "off".

I think it's very much worth testing if Zombie or some of the other guys here are up for it.  What do you say Zombie?

Brian.

[zombie-wmd]

That's a very interesting point actually.  One of the things I really like about Mac laptops is that the sleep and wake are SO good.  Wake happens very quickly and has caused very few issues with my machines that I can personally remember. 

So I wonder if scheduling SLEEP instead of shutdown might be a really nice solution for Zombie and the other guys here?  Sleep is one of the selections that can be made in the Energy Saver schedule.  I sleep my Mac quite frequently and have usually had no problems with it at all.  As a BIG bonus, wake from sleep takes something like 20 seconds until full function is returned on my machine.  That's WAY faster than booting from a machine that's "off".

I think it's very much worth testing if Zombie or some of the other guys here are up for it.  What do you say Zombie?

Brian.

Brian -

All my media files are on a Synology NAS, which I shutdown, by schedule, at night to save wear and tear on the drives.  The reason I shut the Mini down is that I have found that OS X sometimes has trouble reconnecting to the NAS in the morning when the NAS automagically starts up and OS X is already running.  When that happens the Mini has to be restarted away.  It isn't so bad now since the latest OS X maintenance changed or reverted back to a different file sharing implementation.  You were originally right about it being a matter of shut down philosophy, but I think giving hard drives a rest, even though these are WD Reds, extends their life.

Still, I'll take your suggestion about under consideration and see what happens to the NAS connection when the NAS starts up in the morning.

Regards

[blgentry]

The conventional wisdom on powering drives up and down, is that the power cycling kills them way faster then just letting them run.  Assuming that they have adequate cooling.   I'm not trying to convince you or anything.  It's just my experience and research on the matter.

*Do* let us know how the Mac scheduled sleep experiment(s) work out. 

Brian.

[glynor]

The conventional wisdom on powering drives up and down, is that the power cycling kills them way faster then just letting them run.  Assuming that they have adequate cooling.   I'm not trying to convince you or anything.  It's just my experience and research on the matter.

Parking them definitely causes wear on the drive mechanisms (for spinning disks, none of this applies to SSDs).  But, that would apply to sleeping them too, so I think that's a wash.

Power savings from shutting down are usually VERY minimal, and sometimes the reverse is true, if you use the machine at least once per day. Booting up and shutting down are both pretty power hungry processes, and machines are very, very good at racing to sleep in the modern era (even doing it while I'm typing this message). I don't know for sure, but it absolutely has the "stink" of those people who shut their cars off at traffic lights or in line at a drive through. ProTip: Don't do that, it wastes an order-of-magnitude more gas to start the car up than it does to idle for a long while).

Not that you shouldn't be able to shut the machine down, naturally. I have a few apps that constantly block shutdown (I'm looking at you, Microsoft, particularly Lync), but I haven't seen it with MC.  I don't run the Library Server on any of my Macs, though, so perhaps it is limited to that functionality?

[zombie-wmd]

*Do* let us know how the Mac scheduled sleep experiment(s) work out. 

B. -

While all this was going on, my trial period ended.  When my extension comes thru I'll test out 'sleep'.

Z.

[JimH]

I don't know for sure, but it absolutely has the "stink" of those people who shut their cars off at traffic lights or in line at a drive through. ProTip: Don't do that, it wastes an order-of-magnitude more gas to start the car up than it does to idle for a long while).

It's called a Start Stop System.  My new car does that automatically.  Many new cars in Europe do it. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Start-stop_system

[glynor]

It's called a Start Stop System.  My new car does that automatically.  Many new cars in Europe do it. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Start-stop_system

I'm not talking about people who have those cars.

I'm talking about weird people who shut their big, Ford F350 trucks down and re-start them when they are waiting for two people to move in the drive-through lane at the coffee shop.

[zombie-wmd]

*Do* let us know how the Mac scheduled sleep experiment(s) work out. 
Brian.

My testing extension never came through; I guess it's just a cruel joke that that's offered on the trial startup splash. 

Doesn't matter.  I know from the past the MC does not prevent sleep.  However, the problem still remains, that OS X does not reacquire a network share when the NAS starts up in the morning after being pulled out from under OS X the night before, and OS X has not been shut down in the interim.  For that matter, Windows doesn't reacquire either, but at least one can force it without a reboot.  On OS X it's problematic.

Doesn't matter.  I've decided to apply the Alexandrian solution to the Gordian knot problem.  Rather than trying to untie a complicated knot, I will sever it with a sword.  The sword in this case being an ASRock BeeBox.  For $250, one can get a bare bones BeeBox, 8 gigs of DDR3L ram, and 120 GB mSATA drive.  Since I had a spare Win 8.1 hanging around I installed that and then upgraded to Windows 10, although I could have just as effectively used a Linux distro.  I plan to use that machine as a media server.

Currently, I use Kodi with an iOS remote control.  If satisfies the requirements, but I despise Kodi's primitive, obscure, and outright baffling interface.  As far as ripping goes, the Kodi Wiki talks a good game, but that's all.

The simplest and most powerful solution is to get a master license for MC and that's my plan.  However, in spite of the effectiveness of MC's beta testers. I think I will wait until the MC 21/Wndows 10 combo has been in the wild for awhile before I take the plunge.

Signing off (for now)

[blgentry]

Zombie,

Sorry to hear you're leaving JRiver.  There are solutions, but like you said, it sounds like you are wanting something that doesn't require a lot of configuration. ...and honestly, your requirements are somewhat unusual in wanting to shut down machines that depend on one-another and then auto resolve the issues that arise.  I'm not trying to be overly critical; just stating the facts.

If you decide to come back to JRiver at some point, we'll be here waiting for you.

Best of luck with your new system.

PS:  I loved your reference to the Gordian Knot and Alexander.  I learned this via Iron Maiden, as opposed to school! 

Brian.