Topic: EPG (Read 15482 times)

vomski · « **on:** August 22, 2015, 12:49:28 pm »

I have been using Windows media centre and wish to use JRiver instead for Win 10. it does not seem to be able to load a EPG for Australia. I have tried looking through the forum for an answer but the treads seem endless and there does not seem to be an easy answer as to how to load an EPG. As recording television is the main thing I wish to do a media centre without EPG it's useless. Whenever I try and double click to setup EPG it reports a data error. This all seems too hard surly there must be an easier way. I would be grateful for any help before my trail runs out.

Yaobing · « **Reply #1 on:** August 22, 2015, 01:00:14 pm »

I believe we can not directly get EPG data for Australia. We have many Australia users here who may confirm this. There are other options available, using a third-party program to obtain EPG data, and then import into MC.

Do a search on TV Card and TV board, you should get a lot of information.

I will move this thread to that board later.

astromo · « **Reply #2 on:** August 22, 2015, 04:28:08 pm »

vomski, did you check the Wiki?

There's a specific entry for Australia:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/EPG#EPG_for_Australia

There are a couple of us who've worked out that EPG Collector is a good bet for Windows systems. I'd recommend that you start there if you want to pick up the EPG that's broadcast free over the air. You can pay for an EPG that you download from icetv, which simplifies the process.

And there's not much anyone can do to avoid you having to do a fair bit of reading. That's par for the course because out here, we don't get the advantage of the mc2xml setup option that our mates in the US and other places get the advantage of.

Fortunately, MC has an option to import an XMLTV file. You'll have to get that nailed to have any chance of getting an Australian EPG into MC because both EPG Collector and icetv work with XMLTV files. This review offers a primer of the state of play (if not outdated in parts):
http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~willu/w/xmltv/grabbers/

I've got a plan to see if I can get Shepherd to work (the page referred to gives another good run down on the state of play). Recently in my area, the broadcast EPG picked up by EPG Collector was out of sync by a few days (very confusing). I'm thinking that I'll set up a Linux machine on my network to get Shepherd grabbing an EPG as another method of getting EPG data if (when) dodgy data gets transmitted again.

Plus, I'm thinking ahead for when Yaobing can get the TV functionality ported over to MC 4 Linux.

vomski · « **Reply #3 on:** August 23, 2015, 06:42:56 am »

Hi,
Yaobing and astromo ,
Thanks for your help. Yes I did check http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/EPG#EPG_for_Australia. It seemed to me that that that you have to download a program then run it manually or schedule it daily to download and import a file. I am happy to pay for a program or hardware to do the job but don't want to have to pay a monthly subscription. I think this should be an integrated part of MC as it was in MSMC. I think MC is a nice program and does many things but unfortunately does not easily to do the one thing I need in a MC without a significant amount of effort. Not sure if this is just an Australian problem

Regards,
Paul

TheDuke · « **Reply #4 on:** August 23, 2015, 06:51:31 am »

What is reason that MC cannot access EPG in Australia. Could it not use the same functionality as windows media center. I have tried xmltv importing. But quite frankly it is just too much of a pain.

Most of the links and suggestions on the forum are way out of date (by a number of years) and no longer work.

Jim's post states that OTA television is a priority for MC21, this would be a good start.

Yaobing · « **Reply #5 on:** August 23, 2015, 10:46:18 am »

Getting an EPG from OTA signals for DVB TV is on my list.

astromo · « **Reply #6 on:** August 23, 2015, 03:23:59 pm »

Quote from: vomski on August 23, 2015, 06:42:56 am

Hi,
Yaobing and astromo ,
Thanks for your help. Yes I did check http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/EPG#EPG_for_Australia. It seemed to me that that that you have to download a program then run it manually or schedule it daily to download and import a file. I am happy to pay for a program or hardware to do the job but don't want to have to pay a monthly subscription. I think this should be an integrated part of MC as it was in MSMC. I think MC is a nice program and does many things but unfortunately does not easily to do the one thing I need in a MC without a significant amount of effort. Not sure if this is just an Australian problem

Regards,
Paul

Be aware that I'm not in a position to implement change/improvement, that's one for Yaobing and the devs.

How I can help is offer up the benefit of prior experience, as can a couple of other Ozzies around here. For Australia (and a number of other countries around the world), downloading the EPG from the OTA broadcast or scraping it from internet sources using a stand alone piece of software and generating an XMLTV file, is the only free option that I'm aware of.

This is fairly standard for other TV software, so MC is not alone.

Great to hear that Yaobing is working at changing this. It's a "must do" really, especially if MC wants to fill the void left behind by M$'s withdrawal of MCE with Win10.

stewart_pk · « **Reply #7 on:** August 23, 2015, 08:11:52 pm »

Quote from: astromo on August 23, 2015, 03:23:59 pm

This is fairly standard for other TV software, so MC is not alone.

It might not be alone, but it's far from good.
Media Portal 1 and WMC are the shining light of TV viewing and recording for Windows based computers.
Especially as they both support DVB TV and are just generally much better.

RoderickGI · « **Reply #8 on:** August 23, 2015, 09:59:11 pm »

Quote from: stewart_pk on August 23, 2015, 08:11:52 pm

It might not be alone, but it's far from good.
Media Portal 1 and WMC are the shining light of TV viewing and recording for Windows based computers.
Especially as they both support DVB TV and are just generally much better.

Microsoft WMC never provided EPG data in Australia, which is where the OP resides, and needs assistance for.
Microsoft have dropped WMC.

Media Portal is free software (non-commercial) and is therefore allowed free access to EPG data from Schedules Direct in America. SD don't provide data for Australia.
JRiver Media Center is a commercial application, and therefore Schedules Direct does not allow JRiver or MC users to use their data. You won't convince SD to change that position, as they would lose the licence to their data source.

There have been some hardware and software providers that provided free EPG with their product. Where are those solutions now? BeyondTV is defunct, although the parent company still provide EPG data to user who had a licence from years back. But no new users. The software was retired in 2010 from memory.

So while no one is happy paying for separate EPG data, or finding and setting up another application to collect it, and maintaining that setup, there aren't may solutions that are better. XBox One perhaps? Kodi would require lots of setup and maintenance. What others are really out there, and provide the features of MC?

Access to EPG data in Australia has always been a problem, as the broadcasters have fought providing it for years. Now we have one commercial EPG provider: IceTV, for $99 per year. SD is $25 per year.
Zap2it, Schedules Direct, and Microsoft have made access to EPG in America easy for a long time. Now the market is changing, and tightening up. That isn't JRiver's fault.

stewart_pk · « **Reply #9 on:** August 23, 2015, 10:34:04 pm »

Quote from: RoderickGI on August 23, 2015, 09:59:11 pm

Microsoft WMC never provided EPG data in Australia, which is where the OP resides, and needs assistance for.
Microsoft have dropped WMC.

Media Portal is free software (non-commercial) and is therefore allowed free access to EPG data from Schedules Direct in America. SD don't provide data for Australia.

But, both WMC and Media Portal read the EPG off air for DVB TV for free which is what I was referring to.

RoderickGI · « **Reply #10 on:** August 24, 2015, 12:04:38 am »

Quote from: stewart_pk on August 23, 2015, 10:34:04 pm

But, both WMC and Media Portal read the EPG off air for DVB TV for free which is what I was referring to.

Fair enough. I didn't understand that. It is an area of weakness in MC at the moment. One of several in the TV functionality, but that area is getting a lot of attention by developers at the moment.

However, have you had a look at EPG Collector? I believe it is aimed mostly at Australia and New Zealand, but works for a few other locations. Even so it is pretty complex, covers a lot of different requirements, and requires a bit to set up. It also requires a bit of ongoing maintenance as the broadcasters keep tweaking or just changing the formats they broadcast in, for unknown reasons. That level of complexity, differences in different markets and locations, all mean that there is a reasonable amount of work required to establish EPG collection OTA. Also when changes happen, response time is very important to users, so that they get to keep their EPG. With MC serving the world, imagine the work required to keep the collection working for all locations. The American EPG environment is completely different, with not much EPG data sent OTA, if any, for many channels and locations.

I use MHEG5 data from OTA broadcasters here is Australia, because it is better quality data than the older EIT standard. I used WMC EPG data for a short while, but it was based on EIT data, which is pretty useless, so I converted to a local commercial EPG provider when using WMC. I don't think WMC was capable of collecting the better quality MHEG5 (used by Freeview Plus) data.

I haven't looked seriously at Mediaportal, but will note that EPG Collector was created by Mediaportal users back in 2010, and it seems like it is still used for MHEG5 collection. It does look like Mediaportal only collects EIT data, but that page isn't clear. The only mention of EIT and MHEG5 on the Mediaportal site is in relation to EPG Collector, except a for a page stating that Mediaportal can't use the extended MHEG5 Red Button information in the UK. It is clear that for advanced EPG collection, Mediaportal relies on the third party EPG Collector, which can be used in exactly the same way with JRiver MC.

So when looking for quality EPG data, all is not as simple as it seems.

stewart_pk · « **Reply #11 on:** August 24, 2015, 12:13:10 am »

The OP was happy with the "stock" EPG TV functionality of WMC so the "stock" EPG TV functionality of Media Portal will suffice.
JRiver MC does not.

RoderickGI · « **Reply #12 on:** August 24, 2015, 12:27:30 am »

That is probably true. Setting up and maintaining a better solution, whether EPG Collector or something else, can be time consuming and a pain. Though IceTV can be relatively painless when used to output XMLTV data. Incomplete in terms of channel supported though.

Are you using, or have you used, Mediaportal stock EPG functionality for your Australian EPG data? I found the EIT data frustratingly bad whenever I tried it.

stewart_pk · « **Reply #13 on:** August 24, 2015, 12:40:03 am »

Quote from: RoderickGI on August 24, 2015, 12:27:30 am

Are you using, or have you used, Mediaportal stock EPG functionality for your Australian EPG data? I found the EIT data frustratingly bad whenever I tried it.

Yes I've been using it since going to Windows 10. It all seems good to me so far. When you say "bad" do you mean it was wrong or incomplete or both?

RoderickGI · « **Reply #14 on:** August 24, 2015, 02:35:08 am »

Both. Most often it was incomplete, but it was also plain wrong on more than a few occasions.

By incomplete I mean there were gaps in the schedule, or there just wasn't much data for each program. That meant that automated recordings of series etc. were pretty unreliable. Movies weren't flagged as movies, programs rarely had the repeat flag (still don't, even in MHEG5, but I think that is deliberate), didn't include Episode names, just Series names, and then changed them around. Broadcasters schedule double Episodes of a series, and only include episode names, without the series name, or concatenate them together in inconsistent ways. Sports programs? Naming was all over the place, so it was hard to tell if what was scheduled was a repeat of a 1910 race (for example), or the current race happening live.

When it was wrong it often had the wrong program scheduled, or wrong start and end times. But sometimes it was just wrong because of the naming used for programs; either they had prefixes or suffixes in the name that messed up recordings, or they were VERY inconsistent in naming. i.e. N.C.I.S sometimes, and NCIS others, CSI and then Crime Scene Investigation. All sorts of prefixes and suffixes, but mostly promoting the program as new, or special, or something like that.

Timeliness of updates was also an issue, which was often the reason for the completely wrong program being scheduled. That is, a broadcaster changed their scheduled program, but the update didn't get into the EPG data stream. When I used to use a Topfield PVR I could see this as I was able to view the EPG data and compare it to the "Now & Next" data transmitted separately with the EIT.

Often the EIT EPG data looked like it had been collated by an intern in his first week in the job, but actually I think much of it was deliberate misinformation so that people couldn't use there PVRs to record and then later watch the programs, skipping advertisements.

The quality also varied a lot over time. Sometimes it would be good for a long while, and then it would be really bad. New intern I guess. But much of it looked like "I don't care" or deliberate errors.

Then along came Freeview, particularly the Plus version, with the promise of a better EPG system, when all they really delivered was better quality data in MHEG5 format. They have to keep the quality up, as that is the only reason for buying Freeview branded hardware, and hence, protect their advertising revenue stream, since Freeview branded products don't allow ad skipping. So EIT data is obfuscated while Freeview (MHEG5) data is curated, at least a little bit. I think some of the EPG improvement has flowed over to the EIT data stream, but not enough. When I swapped from IceTV to using EPG Collector last year I initially used EIT data. But it didn't take long to see it was still too bad, and I converted to using MHEG5 data.

Also, as the MHEG5 EPG is broadcast for all channels on each channel, it has to be collated and shared with all broadcasters. That seems to enforce a little more professionalism.

Mostly, MHEG5 data more often includes both the program Title and Sub-title fields, which means that I can automatically find Season and Episode numbers, and therefore MC can automatically find lots more information about the program from www.thetvdb.com. That is the major benefit of MHEG5 over EIT data. Not that it is perfect, and there have been some recent hiccups. But MHEG5 data is much better overall.

astromo · « **Reply #15 on:** August 24, 2015, 03:18:49 am »

Quote from: RoderickGI on August 24, 2015, 02:35:08 am

Then along came Freeview, particularly the Plus version, with the promise of a better EPG system, when all they really delivered was better quality data in MHEG5 format. They have to keep the quality up, as that is the only reason for buying Freeview branded hardware, and hence, protect their advertising revenue stream, since Freeview branded products don't allow ad skipping. So EIT data is obfuscated while Freeview (MHEG5) data is curated, at least a little bit. I think some of the EPG improvement has flowed over to the EIT data stream, but not enough. When I swapped from IceTV to using EPG Collector last year I initially used EIT data. But it didn't take long to see it was still too bad, and I converted to using MHEG5 data.

Also, as the MHEG5 EPG is broadcast for all channels on each channel, it has to be collated and shared with all broadcasters. That seems to enforce a little more professionalism.

Mostly, MHEG5 data more often includes both the program Title and Sub-title fields, which means that I can automatically find Season and Episode numbers, and therefore MC can automatically find lots more information about the program from www.thetvdb.com. That is the major benefit of MHEG5 over EIT data. Not that it is perfect, and there have been some recent hiccups. But MHEG5 data is much better overall.

Based on RoderickGI's advice, I switched from EIT to MHEG-5 using EPGC but last week in my region, the broadcast EPG (dialed in to the ABC, no less) went off (as in out of sync) by a couple of days (e.g. the previous Thursday's EPG data was being broadcast as Saturday). In desperation, I gave IceTV a go and it's not that much better than (in some cases worse in terms of accurately picking up shows / movies) EPG Collector with the TMDB/theTVDB scraping function switched on.

Bear in mind that this is a rundown of the standard the broadcasters have to comply with:
http://www.acma.gov.au/Industry/Broadcast/Television/TV-content-regulation/electronic-program-guides-tv-content-regulation-acma

Quote

Do broadcasters have to comply with the EPG principles?
No – there is no formal requirement for broadcasters to comply with the EPG principles.

The principles provide broadcasters with an opportunity to meet agreed EPG service standards without the introduction of regulations.

The ACMA will consider broadcaster performance against the principles when deciding to exercise its regulatory powers in relation to EPGs.

So, even after the IceTV court case and the improvements from MHEG-5 EPG, it's still a no commitment, best endeavours exercise. Yes, I know the broadcasters respond to complaints submitted to ACMA but there are no iron clad guarantees that I can see.

I'm interested to see how CRIDs and an MHEG-5 EPG can play ball together as far as software like EPGC is concerned:
http://www.freetv.com.au/media/Engineering/Free_TV_OP_72_Implementation_of_Content_Reference_IDs_by_Australian_Broadcasters_Issue_1_-_December_2014.pdf
http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/computers/blog/gadgets-on-the-go/freeview-launches-autoupdating-epg-20100628-zedy.html

Quote

With the new Freeview EPG the networks have finally agreed to offer a live EPG which is updated on the fly if a show runs late, so in theory you'll never miss the end of a show again.

The new system relies on the Content Reference Indicator (CRID) system, which is embedded in the broadcast signal to notify your PVR when shows actually start and finish, not when they're "scheduled" to start and finish. The CRID signals work via MHEG-5, which means only devices with the Freeview logo will be allowed to use the CRID data.

I'd think that this data wouldn't be encrypted, so if you've got the wherewithal you'd be able to grab it for use in a DIY EPG.

TheDuke · « **Reply #16 on:** August 24, 2015, 05:55:10 am »

Quote from: Yaobing on August 23, 2015, 10:46:18 am

Getting an EPG from OTA signals for DVB TV is on my list.

Thanks very much. That would be awesome. I have until now, just used WMC for TV and JRiver for everything else. It has been fine. But now with windows 10 upgrades, this becomes quite important. I really don't want to be installing other programs. The great thing about MC is it does pretty well everything.

I think it would be a smart business move to get on to this before competitors. A lot of DVB TV users are going to be looking for an alternative for WMC as they upgrade to Windows 10. MC is in a great position to get this market.

RoderickGI · « **Reply #17 on:** August 24, 2015, 06:35:41 am »

Quote from: astromo on August 24, 2015, 03:18:49 am

Based on RoderickGI's advice, I switched from EIT to MHEG-5 using EPGC but last week in my region, the broadcast EPG (dialed in to the ABC, no less) went off (as in out of sync) by a couple of days (e.g. the previous Thursday's EPG data was being broadcast as Saturday). In desperation, I gave IceTV a go and it's not that much better than (in some cases worse in terms of accurately picking up shows / movies) EPG Collector with the TMDB/theTVDB scraping function switched on.

You know that problem with the MHEG5 data should be fixable. The ABC data stream had some changes a while back, and a fix was put into the latest EPGC fixpack, but then I had issues after that, maybe a week or two ago, so I've switched to Channel 9 for MHEG5 EPG for now. That data stream is also a little dodgy by the look, so I may try another station.

Because of those problems above, I very nearly bought the five years of IceTV for $124 recently offered, but didn't pull the trigger, because they still only support the major channels, so I would still need EPGC to fill the MC Guide.

So did you sign up for IceTV, or are you just running the trial?

But then, as TheDuke, stewart_pk, et al are saying, all of the above are good reasons for MC having a simple DVB OTA EPG collection process in place.

astromo · « **Reply #18 on:** August 24, 2015, 07:08:03 am »

Quote from: RoderickGI on August 24, 2015, 06:35:41 am

So did you sign up for IceTV, or are you just running the trial?

But then, as TheDuke, stewart_pk, et al are saying, all of the above are good reasons for MC having a simple DVB OTA EPG collection process in place.

No, just the trial.

As mentioned above, I'm thinking of trying to get Shepherd to work. I had a go over the weekend with cygwin on my Windows machine but it wouldn't load up for me, so I uninstalled it. Next step, set up a Linux unit on the local network, load it with Shepherd, set up a cron job and save the xmltv file to a common folder that MC 4 Windows can upload on a task schedule.

I'd just like to check whether Shepherd is reliable and whether it offers up good Season/Episode data. At the very least, I'd like to have a fall back that I can rely upon if the OTA EPG is off again.

RoderickGI · « **Reply #19 on:** August 24, 2015, 07:13:01 pm »

I would be very interested to hear if Shepherd is still working, and what the quality of data was like.

I've never used it, but have read up about it many times, with the last time being in the last month. I just never wanted the technical challenges associated with it, which used to be extensive, but seems to have improved a bit. I don't need yet another PC running Linux in my house, and don't want to run Cygwin on my HTPC, which would be the best option. I have used Cygwin a long time ago and it worked fine back then. It doesn't sound good if you couldn't get it to work though. I could repurpose an old laptop and put Linux on it, but it is just more to maintain.

However, if the data is very good, and always includes Season and Episode numbers, plus Repeat flags and consistent naming of programs, genres, ratings, and all such metadata, I would certainly consider using it and putting up with the extra work.

The main Shepherd page hasn't been updated in nearly two years though, so I am hesitant. I should join the mailing list again and see what is going on. When I did that years ago there was very little chatter about anything, which could mean it all just works, or not many people, and only experienced diehards, were using it.

So, please report progress. Perhaps in a separate thread just for Shepherd.

astromo · « **Reply #20 on:** August 25, 2015, 02:35:48 am »

Quote from: RoderickGI on August 24, 2015, 07:13:01 pm

So, please report progress. Perhaps in a separate thread just for Shepherd.

Copy that. Will do ... when I get time ... whenever that is ...

OverTheAir · « **Reply #21 on:** August 28, 2015, 01:38:24 am »

I wonder if JR wouldn't better serve its users by actually licensing EPG data as I believe Sage and certainly BeyondTV did/Snapstream do, rather than relying solely on what seems to be scraping/informal type solutions? At least in major markets that support the availability of such data. If JR are serious about becoming a [the?] leader in computer based DTV recording, then a reliable, robust, accurate, dependable EPG would seem to be a key ingredient/valuable benefit to attract and retain users.

I am currently using MC for TV recording because I really want one application to do everything in the home theater, the integration was after all the main reason I purchased MC originally, along with the potential for more powerful DSP. However, continuing EPG issues such as years instead of seasons in metadata and changing program descriptions that would have caused me to miss recording the World Championships last weekend had I not caught it in time, do have me questioning if there isn't a better solution for me, at least as far as TV recording.

I am the user Roderick referenced above who still has BeyondTV which I have kept installed as a backup solution after the MC EPG meltdown last month. Nearly a decade after purchasing it and even after official support stopped it still provides a rock solid 2 weeks of EPG data (by the good graces of Snapstream). I really should get around to documenting in the forum a number of other BTV aspects too, as even after all this time there are still things that in my view it does better than or in addition to either WMC or MC, such as better 10 foot TV guide interface, the option for remote web control of all TV attributes including recording and more perspectives for viewing EPG data and future recordings that make it easier to check out program's of interest scheduled for the next two weeks.

jmone · « **Reply #22 on:** August 28, 2015, 01:59:17 am »

Inbuilt OTA MHEG5 EPG support (that Yaobing has indicated he has on his list of stuff he is working on) to me is the answer for Std MC users. It is free to get, and is pretty good.

For now, I too use MC to run EPG Collector to get this info into XMLTV and it is then imported. Trouble is EPG Collector is not user friendly by a long shot. I've just relived this setting it backup on a new Win10 build.....

Those who what something "better/different" than OTA EPG can always pony up the $'s for an external XMLTV provider (like Ice TV in Oz).

Thanks
Nathan

GoggleBox · « **Reply #23 on:** August 28, 2015, 09:20:05 pm »

Hi, everyone, and greetings from Sydney, Australia!

Quote from: Yaobing on August 23, 2015, 10:46:18 am

Getting an EPG from OTA signals for DVB TV is on my list.

I'm very glad to hear it, because WMC gets the program data OTA, which is probably best for Australia, because Australian commercial TV networks are notorious for allowing broadcasts to run overtime.

Although I'm a registered JRiver user, I'm still using WMC and I don't want to upgrade to Windows 10 unless I can find a replacement for WMC that has the same capabilities.

I've also been using EPG Collector to get the XMLTV EPG data, but then I found that I had to set the JRiver recording defaults to start at least 10 minutes before and end at least 30 minutes after the scheduled broadcast times, which, of course, results in recordings which take up far more disk space than should be necessary.

In my own case, Friday nights in Sydney are the worst during the Rugby League season, because there are usually two games; one is broadcast live and the other is delayed until the end of the first game. The delayed broadcast is packed chock-full of commercials and regularly runs at least 30 minutes longer than the EPG indicates. Not only that, I also like to watch whatever British "whodunit" is being broadcast on the ABC, and their programs almost always start and end on time.

Now, I'm using a dual DVB-T2 tuner card, and I can set WMC to record the first game on one tuner while the ABC program records on the second tuner, and when the second game starts, WMC automatically starts the recording on the first tuner, because the second tuner is still recording the ABC program. My WMC recording defaults are set to start 5 minutes before and end 5 minutes after the times shown in the EPG schedule, but I have noticed that WMC will continue recording each program until 5 minutes after it ACTUALLY ends, except when there is a conflict in the times, but, in the case of Friday Night Football, it doesn't matter so much, because the two games are broadcast without a break between them and it doesn't matter if the first game goes overtime, because it will still be recorded as if it was the "beginning" of the second game broadcast. (I have set WMC to favour the starting time over the ending time to resolve recording conflicts).

For example, a typical Friday night recording schedule for me would be:

Scheduled Time	Program	Tuner No.
19:30 - 21:30	Footy Game 1	Tuner 1
20:30 - 22:30	ABC Murder Mystery Show	Tuner 2
21:30 - 23:30	Footy Game 2	Tuner 1

WMC records all of this with no problems and no part of any broadcast is missed. Also, Football Game 2 will also continue until it ACTUALLY ends, which can occasionally be after midnight(!), (plus the extra 5 minutes, which takes the viewer into the beginning of the Friday Night Late Movie - usually a repeat of some action movie from the 80s or 90s).

At the moment, I can't get JRiver to do that, because it relies entirely on the information in the XMLTV file supplied by EPG Collector, so I'm hoping against hope that this functionality will soon be available to JRiver users.

Thanks and regards
Christopher (Chris) Souter
(Sydney, Australia)

RoderickGI · « **Reply #24 on:** August 28, 2015, 09:45:50 pm »

Quote from: GoggleBox on August 28, 2015, 09:20:05 pm

WMC will continue recording each program until 5 minutes after it ACTUALLY ends

JRiver MC can't do that, as it requires using the MHEG5 CRID data in real time. MC has no mechanism to do that. It would be nice if it did.

However, pre and post padding can be defined at the default level, and at the individual recording rule level. So for the football games just add more padding. If you use the JTV TV recording format, MC is TV program aware and will record both the games, each with their own record in MC so you can watch either one, and MC will apply the pre and post padding to each recording independently, even though they overlap. MC will use the one tuner to record both games, and will share the component files of the recording between the two programs, where they overlap, to support the pre and post padding.

The is an area where MC does are very good job, and is much better than previous solutions, software and hardware, that I have used.

I'm not sure if you get that level of sharing if you chose the TS TV recording format. I think you do, but someone who uses it can confirm. The disadvantage of using the better JTV format is that it can't be converted to any other format, at least not with the full audio of the original. It down converts audio to stereo. The TS TV recording format can of course be converted by MC and many other applications.

GoggleBox · « **Reply #25 on:** August 28, 2015, 09:54:15 pm »

Hi, everyone!

Quote from: stewart_pk on August 23, 2015, 08:11:52 pm

It might not be alone, but it's far from good.
Media Portal 1 and WMC are the shining light of TV viewing and recording for Windows based computers.
Especially as they both support DVB TV and are just generally much better.

Maybe I was doing something wrong, but I couldn't get Media Portal even to find any channels.
JRiver was the only WMC replacement that I could find which was capable of working with my tuner card.

However, I have to add that, although WMC setup is non-trivial, compared with all the other WMC replacements I tried, the setup was far easier for me to accomplish, and I'm including JRiver in that assessment.

Thanks and regards
Christopher (Chris) Souter
(Sydney, Australia)

GoggleBox · « **Reply #26 on:** August 28, 2015, 10:08:46 pm »

Quote from: RoderickGI on August 28, 2015, 09:45:50 pm

JRiver MC can't do that, as it requires using the MHEG5 CRID data in real time. MC has no mechanism to do that. It would be nice if it did.

So for the football games just add more padding. If you use the JTV TV recording format, MC is TV program aware and will record both the games, each with their own record in MC so you can watch either one, and MC will apply the pre and post padding to each recording independently, even though they overlap. MC will use the one tuner to record both games, and will share the component files of the recording between the two programs, where they overlap, to support the pre and post padding.

Well, yes, "adding the padding" is what I did, but, as I say, the two resulting recordings create much larger files than would be necessary if JRiver did have the real-time MHEG5 CRID mechanism of which you speak.

Thanks and regards
Christopher (Chris) Souter
(Sydney, Australia)

vomski · « **Reply #27 on:** September 14, 2015, 10:48:41 am »

I Have received an email from JRiver "JRiver Media Center 21 -- Ready To GoChanges So Far". In the email it states "On Windows, you will find a new built-in EPG for TV, ". This seems to suggest there is now a working program guide.

I have installed the latest version 21.0.6 and tried double clicking to setup the program guide but get the same results as I have had previously. A dos screen trying to install mc2xml, a window which seems to request a Pay Pal donation and eventually a window stating "The guide data is not valid" This cycles through several times and the whole thing repeats if I try again. This is exactly the same as I have found in other versions of MC.

I did get a window this time stating "Getting EPG data. MC2XMLprovider token" this had a busy icon that seemed to go on forever. I only have a few days left of my trial and would be happy to donate or pay for MC if this worked but can't see much point in it's current state I have found trying to get MC working very frustrating and not very user friendly.

JimH · « **Reply #28 on:** September 14, 2015, 10:58:25 am »

What country are you in?

vomski · « **Reply #29 on:** September 17, 2015, 10:28:58 am »

Australia

JimH · « **Reply #30 on:** September 17, 2015, 11:13:18 am »

Maybe someone from Australia could start an "Australia TV Setup" thread. ?

Yaobing · « **Reply #31 on:** September 17, 2015, 11:16:40 am »

Our recently integrated mc2xml EPG method does not include Australia in its country list. So unfortunately, the EPG situation in Australia has not changed. You will still need to run an external program to get EPG data.

vomski · « **Reply #32 on:** September 19, 2015, 03:11:15 pm »

Thanks for your help Admin's. Hope you are able to include Aus at some point. Very disappointing that I will not be able to use MC without a lot of effort. We just had a change in Prime Minister, the ex Telecommunications minister is now PM perhaps that will help

Regards,

Paul

GoggleBox · « **Reply #33 on:** September 20, 2018, 07:41:41 pm »

Quote from: Yaobing on August 23, 2015, 10:46:18 am

Getting an EPG from OTA signals for DVB TV is on my list.

Any progress on this, yet?
If JRiver could support EIT EPG for Australia, I'll finally be able to ditch Windows 7 and WMC, and upgrade to Windows 10!
I've been waiting for this for over 3 years, and if you can finally implement this, I'll be very happy to pay for a full Windows licence.

RoderickGI · « **Reply #34 on:** September 20, 2018, 08:26:51 pm »

Actually, the EIT EPG in Australia is pretty bad. I'm still using it, because I don't watch lots of recorded TV, but even with the stuff I record now, the EIT EPG lets me down pretty often.

Also, I'm using "EPG Collector" on Windows 10 to collect the Australian EIT EPG. It works extremely well and can recommend it, if you don't want to wait for MC to support DVB EPG collection.

But if you really want a good EPG in Australia, a subscription to IceTV is the best idea.

GoggleBox · « **Reply #35 on:** September 20, 2018, 10:07:33 pm »

Quote from: RoderickGI on September 20, 2018, 08:26:51 pm

Actually, the EIT EPG in Australia is pretty bad. I'm still using it, because I don't watch lots of recorded TV, but even with the stuff I record now, the EIT EPG lets me down pretty often.

It is working OK with WMC, (most of the time), at least on my Win7 x64 Ult SP2 machine. I do have the occasional problem with a recording stopping about half-way through the broadcast, but most of the time it works OK.

Quote from: RoderickGI on September 20, 2018, 08:26:51 pm

Also, I'm using "EPG Collector" on Windows 10 to collect the Australian EIT EPG. It works extremely well and can recommend it, if you don't want to wait for MC to support DVB EPG collection.

I have used EPG Collector before, but only with JRiver. It's quite a task to get EPGC to work properly with WMC!

Quote from: RoderickGI on September 20, 2018, 08:26:51 pm

But if you really want a good EPG in Australia, a subscription to IceTV is the best idea.

I've been investigating that this morning. I think it might be worth another look. My only problem with it is having to pay for a program guide.

Many thanks for your suggestions, anyway!

Thanks and regards
Christopher (Chris) Souter
(Sydney, Australia)

RoderickGI · « **Reply #36 on:** September 20, 2018, 10:51:50 pm »

Oh the Australian EIT EPG works fine, technically, it is just missing data lots of the time so MC (or WMC) can't make good decisions about Repeats, whether a program has been recorded before, and so on.

For example, the Repeat Flag is rarely, if ever, present. In fact, the opposite is often true. When a repeat is scheduled, TV stations often remove the Season and Episode numbers from the EPG, and replace the episode name with the Series name. So it is impossible to tell if it is a repeat, or in fact what the program even is, other than the Series name. Broadcasters deliberately obfuscate the program information, and because they are self-regulating, they can get away with anything they want. Freeview has a lot to answer for all that, because they are pushing their own barrow and trying to force everyone to use compliant hardware so we can't watch what we want, when we want it, without watching LOTS of ads.

I used to use the MHEG5 data that was also available OTA, and was pretty good. But Freeview shut that down and went to an internet-based model, linked to their hardware.

Yaobing · « **Reply #37 on:** September 21, 2018, 08:20:05 am »

Quote from: GoggleBox on September 20, 2018, 07:41:41 pm

Any progress on this, yet?
If JRiver could support EIT EPG for Australia, I'll finally be able to ditch Windows 7 and WMC, and upgrade to Windows 10!
I've been waiting for this for over 3 years, and if you can finally implement this, I'll be very happy to pay for a full Windows licence.

Getting EIT EPG for DVB-T tuners has been working for a while (since MC22). I recently fixed a bug that prevented the same from working with DVB-C (possibly DVB-S too) tuners.

GoggleBox · « **Reply #38 on:** September 21, 2018, 04:45:18 pm »

Quote from: Yaobing on September 21, 2018, 08:20:05 am

Getting EIT EPG for DVB-T tuners has been working for a while (since MC22). I recently fixed a bug that prevented the same from working with DVB-C (possibly DVB-S too) tuners.

Thank you so much for the heads-up!

Even though I haven't yet upgraded from MC21, I have still kept abreast of JRiver's regular email MC update advisories, but, as I didn't see any SPECIFIC mention of updates to MC's EIT EPG suitable for Australia's rather unusual configurations, I didn't feel inclined to spend money on an update when I was unsure whether or not it was going to deliver a feature that I was seeking.

Thanks and regards
Christopher (Chris) Souter
(Sydney, Australia)

RoderickGI · « **Reply #39 on:** September 21, 2018, 08:05:19 pm »

Quote from: Yaobing on September 21, 2018, 08:20:05 am

Getting EIT EPG for DVB-T tuners has been working for a while (since MC22).

Oops. I keep forgetting that, because I use EPG Collector which enables me to enhance the EPG with more data before I give it to MC.

Sorry Yaobing. I'll try to remember in the future.

PS: Chris, there have been a lot of improvements in TV functionality since MC21. An upgrade would be worthwhile. Check out the Release Notes Wiki and search for TV improvements.

GoggleBox · « **Reply #40 on:** September 21, 2018, 08:43:56 pm »

Quote from: RoderickGI on September 21, 2018, 08:05:19 pm

Chris, there have been a lot of improvements in TV functionality since MC21. An upgrade would be worthwhile. Check out the Release Notes Wiki and search for TV improvements.

Thanks for the info. I'll do that.

Thanks and regards to all
Christopher (Chris) Souter
(Sydney, Australia)

imugli · « **Reply #41 on:** September 22, 2018, 02:46:49 am »

FWIW I have IceTV setup and for $5 a month I can't complain.

GoggleBox · « **Reply #42 on:** September 22, 2018, 06:34:45 pm »

Quote from: imugli on September 22, 2018, 02:46:49 am

FWIW I have IceTV setup and for $5 a month I can't complain.

It's not, the money: it's the principle of the thing.
I don't believe that TV scheduling information should be treated in any way as intellectual property, and therefore, I don't agree that an entity should have the right to charge for that information, which, in my opinion, should always be regarded as being in the public domain.

You can read a brief summary of decisions of the Australian Federal Court and the Australian High Court here: https://www.bartier.com.au/insights/articles/copyright-in-tv-schedules-the-high-court-decision-in-icetv-and-nine-network/

RoderickGI · « **Reply #43 on:** September 22, 2018, 09:54:22 pm »

Didn't we all watch that court case, and the preceding actions?!

Bottom line though, IceTV is adding value to the free Public Domain information, and providing a technical solution to deliver the EPG. That is what users are paying for.

I used to use IceTV with my Topfield PVRs and was happy to pay the small price. It costs a little more now, but that isn't why I'm not currently using it. The fact is, our broadcast TV is pretty much rubbish... But I should look at IceTV again myself, as it may help me find some gems amongst the trash!

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