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[DocLotus]

For various reasons I have done several TV Resets which deletes many of my "Recording Rules" & "To Be Recorded" settings even though I scan the same exact channels back into MCTV.

This should not be happening; the only time they should be deleted is when I manually delete them. They should be there forever as simply scanning the channels again does not change what I want to record.

The weird thing is that some of the "Recording Rules" & "To Be Recorded" settings remain. I have not looked closely at exactly which ones remain but have noticed that one (Charlie Brown; Recording Rule) is always one of the remaining. It has no current air time as it is a future end of year holiday show (Thanksgiving & Christmas).

What I'm thinking is that just maybe recordings that are in the current EPG are being deleted while future shows not in the current EPG remain.

I have had to Re-set up the same recordings several times because of this problem

Any ideas on how to fix this?

[CountryBumkin]

That's not happening to me. I have cleared/reset and reinstalled the TV feature at least half a dozen times recently (trying to figure out the best combination to get Season "numbers").
I have not lost any Recording Rules during these reinstalls.

My Recording rules are for TV Series and set to "search all channels and for all times" for the TV shows (but not those episodes previously recorded).

Is there anything unusual with your setup (MC files on NAS or such)?

Perhaps the problem/behavior is different for those that have OTA tuners versus those with Cable setups.

[DocLotus]

My Recording rules are for TV Series and set to "search all channels and for all times" for the TV shows (but not those episodes previously recorded).

I'm set up for...
1: Subscribe.
2: Some... All channels.
3: Some... Specific channels.
4: Some... All Showings.
5: Some... Specific times.
4: Delete after two days.

Is there anything unusual with your setup (MC files on NAS or such)?

Nothing weird in the setup; no NAS, no remote use, no server. Just a single Desktop PC with MC on the same PC.

Perhaps the problem/behavior is different for those that have OTA tuners versus those with Cable setups.

OTA tuner (Hauppauge 2255 dual tuner).

[DocLotus]

CountryBumkin;

I just noticed that I posted this thread in the wrong location; do you have the power to move it to TV Cards & TV section?

Thanks

[CountryBumkin]

CountryBumkin;

I just noticed that I posted this thread in the wrong location; do you have the power to move it to TV Cards & TV section?

Thanks

I have no power    I'm just a user like you. If one of the Admins/moderators wants to move they will/can.


It looks like our TV setups are very similar. I can't explain why your losing recording settings. Maybe someone with an answer will respond on Monday.

BTW - just tried to watch some Live TV on the client machine in the bedroom. Says I have no Tuners available.

[DocLotus]

BTW - just tried to watch some Live TV on the client machine in the bedroom. Says I have no Tuners available.

I too have been having some problems freeing up TV tuners after use.

Am starting a new thread on that topic.

See you there 

[DocLotus]

WOW... Now THAT's real POWER 

Thanks for the "Power move".

[Yaobing]

I have not checked carefully, but doing a reset (of channels, programs, and settings) should not remove recording rules.  However, it is likely that after a reset, the channels and programs that are referenced in your old recording rules are no longer valid (new scans could create new database entries instead of recovering the old deleted entries - well, that is what resetting should do anyway).  So it is advisable to recreate all your recording rules.

[DocLotus]

So why is it not happening to CountryBumkin when he does a reset?

The Recording Rules & settings should be independent of channels or EPG data.

An example...
I have some Recording Rules (such as Charlie Brown) set to record whenever the show comes up in the future. The rule is for All Channels, Any Time. It has no idea when or on what channel the show will appear. The channel (let's say channel 13.4) may not even be on my current OTA scan but as soon as 13.4 is scanned in AND an episode of Charlie Brown is in the current EPG it will record.

Having to recreate most of my Recording Rules each time a Reset is done is not an option as it takes a lot of time & is almost impossible to remember all the items I wanted to record.

I have used various TV Tuners & EPG data since the mid 80's & most hold onto their data very well. Digiguide for example has retained in it's EPG data shows that I want to watch for years, Charlie Brown always comes up during the Thanksgiving & Christmas season no matter how many times I have done a reset or channel scan.

[Yaobing]

Some recording rules do depend on channel and guide data.

Reset is not something you do everyday.  Resetting means start-over.  There is really no reason why recording rules should be held sacred.

[CountryBumkin]

@Doc,
You said that the Charlie Brown subscription is one that does Not get erased, and that it is set to look at all channels and all times.
And I set my recordings up to look for the  subscriptions/Shows on all channels at all times, so it looks like it does not delete my recording subscriptions (just like your Charlie Brown) because it is not "tied" to any specific channel. Therefore when the TV settings are cleared, reset and reinstalled, during of which the current channels are deleted, there is nothing tied to those deleted channels (i.e. if you had Star Trek set to record on channel 6.1 at 8pm every Friday, then you deleted channel 6.1 it would make sense that the subscription would then get deleted too).

Does this about right to you?

Well, that's my explanation and I'm sticking with it. 

[DocLotus]

Some recording rules do depend on channel and guide data.

That may explain why some of my Rules were not deleted while others were. I will take a long, hard look at each one to try to determine what the difference is. But even if that is so why delete the Rule? Just keep it until a channel that fits the rule shows up (like Charlie Brown).

Reset is not something you do everyday.  Resetting means start-over.  There is really no reason why recording rules should be held sacred.

Recording rules SHOULD be held sacred as that is all we have. A lot of work (by the user) goes into creating them & over time they can build into a rather large list that is impossible to "start over". The only time (in my humble opinion) that the Rules should be deleted is when the user manually deletes them. The program should never just automatically delete any Rules.

If I can't depend on the Rules staying put then MCTV may not be a viable option for me other than casual viewing.

[DocLotus]

@Doc,
You said that the Charlie Brown subscription is one that does Not get erased, and that it is set to look at all channels and all times.
And I set my recordings up to look for the  subscriptions/Shows on all channels at all times, so it looks like it does not delete my recording subscriptions (just like your Charlie Brown) because it is not "tied" to any specific channel. Therefore when the TV settings are cleared, reset and reinstalled, during of which the current channels are deleted, there is nothing tied to those deleted channels (i.e. if you had Star Trek set to record on channel 6.1 at 8pm every Friday, then you deleted channel 6.1 it would make sense that the subscription would then get deleted too).

Does this about right to you?

Well, that's my explanation and I'm sticking with it.  Grin

I think you are on to something here. I'm going to check each & every one of my Rules as what you say makes a lot sense.

[CountryBumkin]

I see your point/frustration. Maybe you can just set all your subscription to look at all channels for now to keep them from deleting if you need to reinstall again.

Also, you should know that the TV stuff worked fine for a long time - it wasn't until Microsoft changed from Zap2it to Rovi (last month) that things got messy. I think in a little while [fingers crossed] it will all get straightened out and you won't need to do another refresh/reinstall for many years afterwards. You just jumped in during the transition phase.

[DocLotus]

Therefore when the TV settings are cleared, reset and reinstalled, during of which the current channels are deleted, there is nothing tied to those deleted channels (i.e. if you had Star Trek set to record on channel 6.1 at 8pm every Friday, then you deleted channel 6.1 it would make sense that the subscription would then get deleted too).

For me deleting the subscription that is tied to a certain channel does not make sense as 95% of the time when I do a Reset I scan in exactly the same channels & it would be most helpful not to have to set up the same Rules again for the same exact channels.

I just think is would be less hassle for the user that the only time a Rule is deleted is when the user does it himself (manually & intentionally).

That way we never have to wonder why so & so program did not record as I thought I had set up a Rule for it (oh, yes I did but it got automatically deleted during one of those Resets).

[DocLotus]

I see your point/frustration. Maybe you can just set all your subscription to look at all channels for now to keep them from deleting if you need to reinstall again.

Also, you should know that the TV stuff worked fine for a long time - it wasn't until Microsoft changed from Zap2it to Rovi (last month) that things got messy. I think in a little while [fingers crossed] it will all get straightened out and you won't need to do another refresh/reinstall for many years afterwards. You just jumped in during the transition phase.

LOL  : Frustration; yes. Giving up; hell no.  I LOVE MC & will never give up on it. Yes, I did jump in at a less then stellar time but hey, that's how we learn new things. Hard fought lessons are always the best & most meaningful.

Long Live MC

[DocLotus]

Just took a long look at all my Recording Rules & now know why many, but not all, were being deleted in a Reset (for me but not for CountryBumkin).

It was the All Channels option that kept some from being deleted. The ones without the All Channels were getting deleted. A great BIG THANKS, CountryBumkin for the suggestion.

I'm in the process for the time being (until a fix is in place) of changing all Rules to All Channels.

The user should never have to worry that one little setting like this may wipe out 80% of their hard-earned Rules setup during a Reset. Just look at the time & frustration it's caused me tying to figure it out. Hope a fix for this can be implemented.

I did notice that when a new Rule is set up for let's say This Old House on channel 8.1 that in addition to 8.1 KUHT-HD it will also say All Channels by default. As This Old House is on so many Houston channels several times a day I removed the All Channels option as I did not want my hard drive filling up with episodes of TOH. I have similar problems with a few other programs (mostly originating on Public TV & airing on PBS plus other Houston channels).

[Yaobing]

It is possible that the rules are not really deleted at all.  They do not show up under "To be recorded" because the old channels can not match the new channels.  You can go to Recording Rules and see if all your old rules are there.  If they are there, you can edit them and set channels correctly.

[DocLotus]

You can go to Recording Rules and see if all your old rules are there.

That's the problem, it's the Recording Rules that are gone. That's why I started this thread.

[RoderickGI]

This should not be happening; the only time they should be deleted is when I manually delete them. They should be there forever as simply scanning the channels again does not change what I want to record.

I have used various TV Tuners & EPG data since the mid 80's & most hold onto their data very well.

I agree. I used one piece of software with my Topfield PVR for years, and had dozens of rules that were finely honed over time. They were never deleted if I rescanned or updated channels, which I had to do at least once a year due to changes from analogue to digital broadcasts, and changes to digital frequencies as they were rationalised.

This is another reason why I think the recording rules area in MC needs to be overhauled. The rules should be completely independent entities in the database, and should be used to match against the EPG, rather than being tightly linked to the EPG or dependent on it.

Of course, MC would require the capability to recognise when a rule existed but the channels do not. However, that could be as simple as the rule no longer finds a match in the EPG. It shouldn't need to delete the rule if the channel it references no longer exists. I also agree that a reset shouldn't removed rules.

[DocLotus]

I'm running three test, the first of which I just got done doing. Before starting I changed all 24 of my Recording Rules to All Channels.  I than changed 3 of them from All Channels to specific channels 8.1, 26.1, 39.1.

I did a "Cleanup Channels" & "Cleanup Guide data" (the first two check boxes in the "Clean up old settings?" dialog).
 
After scanning for channels & running mc2xml & re-matching channels & setting up favorites again, I found all 24 Recording Rules were still there while the three that were set up with specific channels 8.1, 26.1, 39.1 were also there but as expected had no channel data. As Yaobing suggested they could be re-assigned again to specific channels. Even this should not be required as they should automatically recognize that the 8.1, 26.1, 39.1 channels are back.

Next, I'm doing the same thing as above plus a Reset.

Then a Reset only.

Stay tuned folks, the results are just around the corner .

[DocLotus]

Oh, by the way, Yaobing... the Scanning for ATSC Channels number is way off. It show 68 total channels while an actual visual count shows 119 in my Houston area. That is the same number that MC Rovi reports as it is downloading EPG data.

[DocLotus]

Just completed a "Reset all television settings" in the "Clean up old settings?" dialog box. This is the bottom check box only (does not include the "Cleanup Channels" & "Cleanup Guide data" (the first two check boxes).

As expected, only TV settings were changed to defaults (Recording Rules were not touched) but it did run a new channel scan.

Next I'll run all three check boxes in the "Clean up old settings?" dialog box.

[DocLotus]

Ran all three check boxes in the "Clean up old settings?" dialog box.

Much to my surprise the Recording rules were not effected except for the three specific channels 8.1, 26.1 & 39.1 which were changed to no channels but were still there.

This is now very weird as I have had to re-do many of the channels several times.

Next...  All three check boxes in the "Clean up old settings?" dialog box plus "Reset mc2xml Settings Files so it ask for configuration information again".

[DocLotus]

Just ran... All three check boxes in the "Clean up old settings?" dialog box plus "Reset mc2xml Settings Files so it ask for configuration information again".

Again, much to my surprise the Recording rules were not effected except for the three specific channels 8.1, 26.1 & 39.1 which were changed to All Channels but were still there.

All of the lost Recording Rules were with the previous 21.0.2. I thought there were no TV changes in 21.0.3 as there was no mention of a TV Change-a-log in the 21.0.3 posting.

Maybe Yaobing could elaborate about any TV changes to 21.0.3 that may have effected this.

[JimH]

Some recording rules do depend on channel and guide data.

Reset is not something you do everyday.  Resetting means start-over.  There is really no reason why recording rules should be held sacred.

I agree with Yaobing here.  Reset is reset.  It's a start-over.

We should add a warning about what it will do.

Doc, why reset?  Don't you just need to rescan? 

Except for the misunderstanding about what reset does, I think all of the problems you're having are related to the change in the EPG area, which is a change with the source, and not an MC problem.

The channel guide in the signal is very limited, as you found.

I'll give you a chance to reply and then lock this.  If you have EPG problems, use one of the existing EPG threads.

[RoderickGI]

Jim I don't think this discussion is an EPG issue. Nor is it in any way a poor reflection on Yaobing, or even MC. It is just an area that could be improved.

Even though in this instance the issue has been highlighted by problems with the EPG, I do believe that it is a separate issue. After all, this issue could arise if I had to re-setup my TV stations again. Am I sure that no recording rules would be removed if I just rescanned channels? No. Is it documented or even understood by most users what circumstances would cause recording rules to be lost? No. In fact I will need to either rescan or do some manual editing of my channels in the near future, as there are some more changes coming up. I will now be reluctant to do that until I have separately documented my recording rules, just in case.

A start over of TV station setup doesn't mean a change in the programs that a user wants to record. Only that something has changed, and it needs to be fixed.

As I said earlier, I used to use an application that stored complex rules for years, and I improved them over all that time using the built in Boolean expression support. To loose those rules would have meant a lot of work to recover my setup, but the rules were never deleted, unless I deleted them manually. I think that is the correct process.

That is the issue in this thread, rather than EPG configuration or any other situation that required reconfiguration or even reset of TV channels.

[JimH]

I don't believe you lose recording rules if you rescan.  The reset that Doc says he did repeatedly is the problem.  And a reset is not a modest operation.  It is a "do over".  It's a necessary operation if you move from Houston to Australia.

And I believe his problems began because of the EPG change.  He started trying things to fix it.    

[CountryBumkin]

Oh, by the way, Yaobing... the Scanning for ATSC Channels number is way off. It show 68 total channels while an actual visual count shows 119 in my Houston area. That is the same number that MC Rovi reports as it is downloading EPG data.

This part is correct. Just confusing.  There are only 68 ATSC channels, but each channel can transmit more than 1 signal. For example, you can get 4 separate programs from the local PBS channel such as channels designated as 107-1, 107-2, 107-3, 107-4. http://www.interfacebus.com/digital-frequency-bands-channels.html

[RoderickGI]

And I believe his problems began because of the EPG change.  He started trying things to fix it.    

Yes I agree with that. I guess I'm just thinking about future improvements I would like to see in recording rules, which would make complete separation of the rules and EPG data a requirement . . . But that is for another thread at some other time.

Although, I would probably want to keep my recording rules if I moved from Houston to Australia, since I would probably still be recording the same programs. However, a PC probably wouldn't make the move with me, so I don't need to worry about that. 

[Yaobing]

We do not delete rules after a reset.  For good or for bad, it was actually an oversight.  However, MC runs a cleanup routine that removes rules that no longer make sense.  The reason you do not always lose them is that the routine is not immediately executed.  If you leave those rules without fixing them, they will eventually be deleted.  When you do reset of channels and/or EPG data, some rules become unusable unless you fix them.

As it is now, it is not possible for MC to automatically fix such broken rules.  It is not as simple as you think.  When you choose to record on a particular channel, say 26.1, MC saves the channel's database ID, not the string "26.1", nor major-minor channel set (26, 1) in the rule.  When you do a reset, the channel ID is gone.  There is no way to reference it.

Future improvement, maybe. 

[DocLotus]

As it is now, it is not possible for MC to automatically fix such broken rules.  It is not as simple as you think.  When you choose to record on a particular channel, say 26.1, MC saves the channel's database ID, not the string "26.1", nor major-minor channel set (26, 1) in the rule.  When you do a reset, the channel ID is gone.  There is no way to reference it.

Have been giving that a lot of thought.

What I've noticed during all my Reset & Cleanup tests is Rules that are set to record on specific channels such as 8.1 are changed from 8.1 to All Channels upon any of the various Reset or Cleanups. That sounds like an OK thing except even though the Rule says All Channels a recording is never made on 8.1 (or any other channel) until I go into the Rule, make any change & press the Finish button. Then & only then does a to be recorded icon show up next to the channel on the All Programs screen. At this point a recording will be made at the right time.

What I'm wondering if all that is needed to "kick start" the Rule into recording is me simply "refreshing" the screen by pressing the Finish button would it be possible to during a Reset or Cleanup...
1: Not delete (or change to All Channels) specific channels numbers like 8.1.
2: Do a Rules "refresh" after any Reset or Cleanup.

In other words never actually touch or modify any Rule during a Reset or Cleanup & do a Rules refresh after the Reset or Cleanup to reapply the recording icon to 8.1.

What do you guys think?

 

[DocLotus]

One other thing, yes this all started because of earlier EPG problems but that is no longer the case. It is now strictly a Recording Rules problem. See my suggestion (above).

[DocLotus]

I agree 100% with Roderick's last two posts; right on man 

[RoderickGI]

Thanks for the explanation Yaobing. That is pretty much what I expected, in that it is a channel's database ID that is used for recording, and not a channel number. It is good to hear it confirmed.

I didn't know that broken rules were deleted by the regular TV rules processing, or that the plan was to delete the rules, but it was missed. It all helps me understand how MC works in the background. Thinking about it though, I knew that "once off" rules were deleted when they were no longer relevant, as I have seen that happen, and it could only have been the TV rules process that did that.

Perhaps a "Too Easy II" change would be to suspend those rules that no longer make sense, rather than delete them. Or better still, Disable the rules and make a note in the remarks to that effect, so that users can see the rule has been disabled, and would know MC did it rather than a user.

What do you guys think?

An automatic refresh of the rules might work, if it invoked all the edits and checks that a normal rule edit did, and the channel number was identical to the number prior to the reset. It wouldn't be straight forward though, if there wasn't a match for a channel referenced in a rule. MC would still have to do something like Disable the rule and highlight it for human correction. With the current design though, that links the rule to the channel's database ID, and not to its number or name, the process may be complex.

I would be happy if the rules that didn't make sense were just suspended/disabled, with a remark, so that a user could go through them, fix them, and re-enable them. At least for now.

[DocLotus]

An automatic refresh of the rules might work, if it invoked all the edits and checks that a normal rule edit did, and the channel number was identical to the number prior to the reset. It wouldn't be straight forward though, if there wasn't a match for a channel referenced in a rule. MC would still have to do something like Disable the rule and highlight it for human correction. With the current design though, that links the rule to the channel's database ID, and not to its number or name, the process may be complex.

All the ones I've lost used the same exact channel number & are still in the current EPG. They only become usable again when I manually re-enter the same channel number & click Finish. As I suggested in my previous post if the channel number could be left alone & a Rules refresh carried out after any Reset or Cleanup process then that specific channel like the 8.1 example would continue to record after a Reset or Cleanup.

That one change would completely resolve the missing Recordings problem for me.