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[richard-ec2]

I have two PCs in my home  - both with Windows 10 and MC20 - and both are set up to be accessed by JRemote on my iPad. Each PC has its own access key, of course. Normally things work OK but if I tell JRemote to access one PC and it isn't available, JRemote simply wipes out the access key of that PC from my server settings, replaces it with the access key of the other PC, and loads the library from that PC instead! This happens every time a PC isn't available. It's very irritating because the changes it makes are permanent, so that means I now have two lots of server settings for the one PC and none for the other and I have to correct all the server settings before I can access the other PC again.

Another example of this is, for one of the PCs, I actually have two sets of settings - one lot of settings for accessing the PC on my home Wi-Fi network and another lot of settings for accessing it through the internet when I'm travelling. Again, both work fine in normal circumstances but if I'm at home and I accidentally attempt to use the internet settings for this PC, and my mobile data isn't switched on so direct internet access is denied, JRemote simply wipes out the internet settings and replaces them with the local Wi-Fi settings and loads the library via my home network instead! You might thing this doesn't matter because I still end up with the same library loaded, but the point is, JRemote has now permanently deleted the internet settings without telling me and unless I realise what's going on, I won't have any internet access to my music next time I'm travelling because all the settings have gone.

Can anyone tell me why this is happening?

[Arindelle]

Hi Richard

Before I even attempt and not wanting to steer you the wrong way, I'm confused

Each PC has its own access key, of course.

actually this is pretty rare, IMO -- why do they? is one under a Mac/Linux license and the other under a PC one?  If you have multiple computers, usually, the authentication code is the same. You can install multiple PCs using the same license.

Also, normally (but not always), you will have one machine acting as the "media server". The other PCs and JRemote devices are clients of this and load the servers library. You can have "local" or multiple libraries, but normally (again not always) you wouldn't want to do that. There would not need to be separate "internet connections".

eg for me its simple PC1 media server using authentication (has to be on or able to be via WoL) feeds to clients locally which load its library. JRemote can act as the controller locally or as an external renderer via the web.

Now your needs might be more complex ... multiple libraries, multiple instances of media server running. Maybe you can explain your set-up and what you want to accomplish. (there are a bunch of different ways to access your network - authentication, IP direct, VPN). JRemote can control and memorize multiple server settings. So either you can simplify or perhaps set up an additional server via JRemote (you would have to configure this locally, prior to going on a business trip though).

Maybe you can give some more details?

[richard-ec2]

Thank you very much indeed for answering. From what you say, I have everything set up wrong so it will be interesting to find out how to do it right!

Here's the setup.

In my home I have two PCs in different rooms (both with Windows 10 and MC20).

In one room, a sort of home office, sits my main desktop PC. This carries my main music library and I use this PC to add more music to the library and maintain the collection generally. But I also use this PC to listen to my main music library when I'm in this room, either using headphones or computer speakers, and it is sometimes useful to be able to control it using my iPad. Also, because this is where my main music library resides, and because it is the only PC in my home with Wake On Lan, it is the PC I need to access if I want to use JRemote over the internet.

In another room, I have a smaller satellite PC which plays a crucial role because it's attached to my hi-fi system. This PC is used to provide all music playback through my hi-fi system. It is currently set up to load my main music library from the main desktop PC in my home office.

My iPad is mainly used to control the satellite PC when I'm sitting down listening to music through my hi-fi system, so I have an access key that allows me to control the satellite PC.

However, I also have an access key that allows me to control the main desktop PC for when I'm in my home office and want to play back through that PC.

And I have also entered some separate settings with my "real" internet address so that I can access the main desktop PC when away from home.

I can now see that this third lot of settings (for the internet) is almost certainly redundant because as long as JRemote has the access key for my main PC, it will find it whether I'm in my own home or on the other side of the world. So I should probably delete those settings.

But it still seems to me that I need two lots of settings:

One for the satellite PC when I want to play back music through my hi-hi system

And the other for the main PC, a) for when I want to play back music from that PC and b) for when I want to access my music library over the internet.

Am I wrong? Is there a better way of doing it, using only one access key?

[JimH]

... I'm confused
 actually this is pretty rare, IMO -- why do they? is one under a Mac/Linux license and the other under a PC one?  If you have multiple computers, usually, the authentication code is the same. You can install multiple PCs using the same license.

I think he means the Access Key for Media Network, and I think you mean the Registration Code (the license).

[richard-ec2]

Ah yes, JimH is right, I think there may be some confusion here. In my OP I'm talking about the access key for media network - in other words, when you're on an iPad, and you open JRemote, it's the key that JRemote asks you for when you want to add a new server ("Connect with access key"). This has nothing to do with the registration code or licence for JRiver MC20 - I only have one of those.

What I was saying in my OP is that whenever I try to access a PC on my network that's unavailable, JRemote arbitrarily (and permanently) overwrites that PC's access key and other settings with the access key and settings of any other PC on my network that IS available and connects me with that PC instead! It's really quite extraordinary.

[Arindelle]

I think he means the Access Key for Media Network, and I think you mean the Registration Code (the license).

No I meant the access key

Your right though I should have been clearer, when using the authentification method, why are the access codes different

... all of my clients and server use the same access key. Do you mean my set-up after all this time is the one that is strange and not the other way around, Jim?

@Richard -- I have to run but I'll get back later today if none else chimes in. But basically your playback and control settings, audio set-up etc., are "zone-based" and separate from the diiferent machines on your network so not to worry. Normally when I set up a new client, I just restore a library backup which ports all my views and settings form the server's (including the access code .. it appears, following Jim's comment, to be confirmed ). I thee adapt/change the audio setting for playback for the client and clear the local library that is created. I just find this faster to redo the audio options than all of my views and things.

Regardless, your office machine IMO should be the only machine running media server. You would then just use the access key from this PC to use as your server (one and only) on JRemote. If you are only using JRemote I wouldn't bother with IPadressing other than the router config unless you had another client PC externally. Other than DHCP settings and port 52199 forwarding which you have already done in your router I'm sure, you really don't have to do much more and you don't have to use a secondary access. To control client playback you can do it by choosing the hifi playback zone(s) -- usually theya will apear as There - zone a there-zone b.

I do the same thing as you except I prefer that my HTCP acts as the media server and my other devices are clients/renderers .. but its really the same thing

[Arindelle]

was typing while you were replying Richard, now I really have to go Are you running media server on both machines? I don't believe JRemote can see other machines excpet via the server, unless you are routing to them via direct IP access (no access code). But I see maybe why you are trying do so now --you want to control both server and the client PC in your office via JRemote locally?  On the client you can show and control the server's playback zones, as well as the local ones. But you can't control one client's zones from another client (JRemote in this case is a client too)

I only control my hifi with JRemote locally not my office PC that I'm sitting in front of. So, I  only have one server configured on JRemote. But now that I think about it, you might need to run two version of media server to accomplish this. Which can get a bit sticky sometimes. I'll try to check this later tonight or maybe someone else could confirm in the meantime?

[Hendrik]

When running multiple Media Servers on the same network, it can sometimes help to avoid a bunch of confusion when using different ports for the systems, so say 52199 for your main server, 52198 for the other one.
The reason it gets confused sometimes is when it tries to use your external network address, and your router usually forwards to your one system - but if that system is down, it may for some reason decide to forward to the other one - and this happens.

If you use two different ports, this situation is impossible. Or disable automatic forwarding in the router (ie. through UPnP), and instead hardcode a forwarding path.

[richard-ec2]

Many thanks indeed for all this help.

Let's keep this really simple and leave the internet out of it for the moment.

As I said, I have two PCs, one in my home office (with my music library installed on it) and the other in the living room attached to the hi-fi.

Both these PCs have MC20 installed. And this is surely essential, because I want to be able to play music on both these PCs at different times. Obviously I can't play music on a PC unless it has JRiver MC installed on it (or some other media player). I'm sure I'm right about this at least but if I'm not please tell me right now!

So, I have MC on both PCs. But I agree, I only need a music library on one of them because the other PC can share the same library. In my case I have the music library installed on the home office PC because that's where I work on it, constantly making additions and other changes. So the home office PC is set up as the server and the hi-fi PC is set up as a client, and the hi-fi PC gets its library from the home office server.

All this is fine and works well and is set up optimally as far as I know.

Now, where I get confused is with this question of zones and JRemote. If I set up JRemote to access my home office PC server, and then hit the "zones" button on JRemote, I only get two playback options: "Player", meaning the home office PC server itself, or "This device", meaning the iPad that I'm using for JRemote. The client PC attached to my hi-fi does not appear as an option. So as far as I can see, the only way I can use JRemote to control playback from the hi-fi PC is to enter the hi-fi PC separately as another server, using its own (different) access key.

Now, have I got this setup wrong? Am I missing something and is there a better way of setting things up, using only one access key but controlling playback in two different zones as well on the iPad itself?

[richard-ec2]

Having done some searching on the question of zones I think I can at least begin to answer my own question. On my main home office PC I went to Player > Zones > Add zone and added an imaginary zone called "Living room", then opened JRemote and connected to my main home office PC. To my amazement, "Living room" showed up as an additional zone! So if I can just find out how to turn that imaginary zone into a real one connected to my hi-fi PC, I guess I will only ever need to access my main desktop PC with JRemote to access all areas and all the other problems I've been having will disappear.

But the information on setting up zones seems very scant. I ought to say that my hi-fi PC is several rooms away from my main home office PC and is connected by Ethernet cable. Can anyone give me any advice on setting up the hi-fi PC as a zone, bearing in mind that it's already set up as a DLNA renderer?

[mwillems]

But the information on setting up zones seems very scant. I ought to say that my hi-fi PC is several rooms away from my main home office PC and is connected by Ethernet cable. Can anyone give me any advice on setting up the hi-fi PC as a zone, bearing in mind that it's already set up as a DLNA renderer?

This is the answer to your problem.  How did you set up the client PC as a DLNA renderer?  Using JRiver or something else?  Is Media network enabled and the DLNA renderer box checked on the client?

If it's already setup as a DLNA renderer, you just need to make sure that your server is setup as a DLNA controller.  You do that by enabling media network on your server (which is already probably true) and making sure the DLNA controller box is checked under media network.  At that point DLNA renderers on your network should show up as zones on the server, and in JRemote when logged into the server.  

If you have media network and the DLNA options enabled on both machines, and you can't see zones from one on the other, something in the network (a firewall or the router) is preventing the DLNA "devices" from communicating with each other.

[richard-ec2]

I'm very sorry, I made a mistake. I'm not set up for DLNA at all. In my ignorance I was using the wrong terminology and in fact my server and client PCs are set up only in a library server/library client relationship, not in any DLNA relationship. So what would be my best way forward bearing this in mind? Sorry again for misleading.

[mwillems]

Make sure media network is activated on both machines, and then make sure that the server has DLNA controller checked and the client has DLNA renderer checked.  The client will now appear as a zone on the server, and in JRemote.

[richard-ec2]

Unfortunately that doesn't work for me. I only see two "Zones" in JRemote. One is "Player" (meaning the PC) and the other is "This device" (meaning my iPad). The other PC doesn't appear as a zone.

Could it be that I have to configure the server as a DLNA server before this will work? As I said in my last post, it's only configured as a library server at the moment, not as a DLNA server, so perhaps that's why nothing happens when I check the DLNA controller box (and the renderer box on the client PC).

[mwillems]

Unfortunately that doesn't work for me. I only see two "Zones" in JRemote. One is "Player" (meaning the PC) and the other is "This device" (meaning my iPad). The other PC doesn't appear as a zone.

Could it be that I have to configure the server as a DLNA server before this will work? As I said in my last post, it's only configured as a library server at the moment, not as a DLNA server, so perhaps that's why nothing happens when I check the DLNA controller box (and the renderer box on the client PC).

That shouldn't matter. I can confirm that just those boxes should do it. If you have the boxes checked and you don't see the client as a zone on the server, there's almost certainly a firewall or router problem preventing them from communicating.

[richard-ec2]

It's very odd. Each can see the other's library and stream from it and I'm having no other network problems between the two PCs yet for some reason the DLNA function seems to be blocked. I'll have to look into this but if anyone has any ideas in the meantime, I'd be delighted to hear them.

[Arindelle]

ok seems to be some confusion about zones.

Every installation has a local library (empty or not) - this is called MAIN which is confusing in my opinion as it is not necessarily the principal library in your network but the default local library  - whatever, it is what it is. Each local installation client or server (or, rarer, both) has at least one zone that usually defaults to Player.

From version 20 on, your audio playback configuration config is done per zone. Zones are administered per install. So if you have not created new zones "Player" is the only one to show up. (sounds like your case.)

On the client options you can configure it to show the zones also on the server. Usually this default to There: "zonename". A zone is not necessarily a location, but it can be in that you can control remote server zones from clients. Eg. My server PC for my stereo has  5 zones -- one for "bit-perfect" no DSPs and disabled system volume; another one for remote volume control using JRiver's internal digital volume; one using the volume leveling for play lists and shuffled playback; one with a lot of DSPs and latency correction using the WDM driver for web streaming. In my office I only have 3 zones, one for the web, one with volume leveling and one without but I can see and control/link the servers zones on my Hi-Fi from the client.

It's very odd. Each can see the others library and stream from it and I'm having no other network problems between the two PCs yet for some reason the DLNA function seems to be blocked. I'll have to look into this but if anyone has any ideas in the meantime, I'd be delighted to hear them.

Forget the DLNA stuff for now. JRemote can only connect to 1 media server at a time. If you haven't set up multiple zones ... you will only see the default zone (usually called Player) and this Device (call this JRemote's local zone maybe) – you only see 1pc because you are connected to one media server.

Start simple with JRemote controlling one PC, not two – Again, if I haven't been clear, you can't control two at once (except maybe by linking zones but that something else)

SO ... The client can control zones located on the server its is  connected to. But the server can't control the client.

If you have multiple zones configured, this is something like what you would see from the client PC (if you only have one zone configured you will only see Player and There:Player)



JRemote would see the server zones and This Device. The server PC shows ONLY its local zones, k? JRemote, again, acting as a sort of client, is either a control point or a renderer

here is the simple config for the client PC



and here is the server PC (note: just load the generic DLNA, nothing else and don't tweak it)



Now the question is really do you NEED JRemote to control your office PC that you are sitting in front of or not. If so, follow Hendricks advice above using two ports (it can work with one but you could/will have issues). You will have to do the same server config on the 2nd PC, running media server from what is now the client.   Now you have to choose which server to load in JRemote. I'm guessing it would probably be a good idea to only auto-load media server from the machine with the local files … loading the other media server when needing JRemote as a controller only.

[Arindelle]

ok feeling inspired ... a bit more to really build a wall-of-text

Now I do all administration (tagging especially) from the client; what you can't do you can easily do via remote access (I use Teamviewer, its free). You can rip locally and move files via you network or rip on the server PC. No biggie. So the HTPC connected to my Hi-Fi is really acting as my NAS. You are doing it the other way around. The choice is up to you, but generally, I'd think it would be handier for most to have the media server where the principal playback area is (and also the files if not connected to a real NAS.) Often people want to run this headless, which is where JRemote comes in. This choice probably depends on  how the machines are used in your family. I'm the only one using my office computer so there is no need to have it on all the time. Maybe your office is also your billiard room with a bar in it though and you spend most of your time hanging out there  

Regardless, I wouldn't make the main media server PC your office just because you want to maintain your media collection and add music from there - you can do that with it being a simple client. Seems like you are adding a layer of complexity that might be unnecessary, but maybe you are using a NUC or other small PC as the renderer and can't have a lot of storage attached near your stereo?

[richard-ec2]

First of all, a huge thank you for going to so much trouble to explain. With pictures, even!

I think I understand most of what you're saying but it's not good news for me.

Just to recap, I have two PCs in different rooms, each running MC20.

In my home office I have a big, powerful desktop PC containing my music collection. This is where I do all the work on the collection and I do an awful lot of work on it, comparing masterings in software, remastering, all kinds of things. This PC is also used for many other purposes.

In the living room I have a small headless PC attached to the hi-fi via a high quality DAC. This small hi-fi PC is attached to the main PC by Ethernet cable. The only reason I have this small hi-fi PC is to play music through the hi-fi system.

When listening to the hi-fi, I want to control music playback from the small hi-fi PC using JRemote.

But another consideration is that, when travelling away from home, I want to use JRemote to access my music collection via the internet.

Ideally I would want to control everything from my main office PC. So I would have my entire music collection on the main office PC and the small hi-fi PC would just be a client, loading its library from the main office PC. Since JRemote can only connect to one PC, I would have it connected to the main office PC and whenever I wanted to listen to my hi-fi, I'd simply tell it to play back my music through the small hi-fi PC.

But if I understand you right, I cannot do that because JRemote will not tell the main PC to use the small hi-fi PC as a zone.

Is that really right? If I understand you correctly, JRemote will show "This device" as a zone (in my case, my iPad); it will also show one PC called "Player" as a zone, which is the PC it's connected to; and it will also show any number of LOCAL zones that you've configured on that particular PC; but it will not under any circumstances show any other PC on your home network as a zone even if it's configured as a zone on the PC you're connected to.

If that's right, then I'm going to have to re-think the whole thing again. I can't really use my small hi-fi PC to house the music collection because it will soon run out of space and although I can work on it remotely, it's not nearly as convenient as having it on my main PC.  I guess I could have JRemote connected only to the small hi-fi PC, loading its library from main office PC, but I would worry then about being able to access it through the internet since it doesn't have Wake On Lan - I'd have to remember to leave it permanently switched on, but then I'd have to remember to disconnect all the hi-fi equipment from the mains because I wouldn't want to leave that switched on as well.

Alternatively, there's always the idea of using different ports.

Anyway, something for me to ponder. Many thanks again for all your help and please let me know if I've misunderstood anything.

[Arindelle]

you did misunderstand a few things and it should work out for you so don't lose hope.

"Player" is a local zone too; it just the default one. You can rename it to HI-FI if you want. You probably should set-up at least 2 zones unless you never listen to playlist or shuffle your albums around. That way you can configure volume leveling by just switching zones in JRemote for example.

Again, forget the maintenance -- thats not a plus - you can do just about everything using JRIver remotely, and what you can't,  you can using free third party software and windows networked. I would be surprised if you tag or monkey around with veiws and things more than I do .. I'm a sick puppy (not only to I want to know the soloist, but what instrument they play/if they are singing soprano, what role they might be singing, or what other bands they might be playing with ... not to mention my categories, genres and styles ... I'm real OCD )

So getting back to the topic at hand .. sorry I ramble  

1) you want external access via internet/JRemote -- no problem your office PC runs media server-1 (using port 52199); office PC must be on/or WOL

2) you want control via JRemote to the office PC -- no problem idem above

3) you want control via JRemote to the hifiPC -- it seems to be better to launch another media server2 (use port 52198 as Hendrick suggested; make sure the router allows this in port forwarding) -- the potential issue of JRemote wiping out the settings is mute because there will be two servers stored in your phone/ipad.. it loads the last server loaded if memory serves. EDITED for stupidityMake sure you have followed mwillems advice about checking the correct renderer controller boxes -- I didn't put a screenshot of this. I just assumed you would have done this already

As I've never tried this there could be an issue having two versions of media server running due to the fact that your Hi-FI PC is running as a client always by loading the office's PC's library; it in turn is acting as a server to your ipad/iphone which is either acting just as a control point or control+renderer. I think this should work though (especially as you said you have been able to control the HiFi PC with JRemote already

I can't test this easily at my place without loading media files on my current client.   Your set-up is why people buy a NAS or use a third old/cheapo PC as one as mwillems does and put it in a closet not too far from your stereo htpc. ... if someone else who's a bit more knowledgeable wants to correct me or clarify that would be cool  

[richard-ec2]

Many thanks again. Unless I've misunderstood, it does seem to me you're confirming that there's no way of using JRemote to control two different PCs in two different rooms except, possibly, by setting up two different servers using two different ports as suggested by Hendrik. I think that's the key point to have emerged from what you've said because it does mean abandoning any idea of using zones to achieve a two-room setup via JRemote.

So, if we've abandoned all hope of using zones to achieve this, I'm not quite sure about this bit

Make sure you have followed mwillems advice about checking the correct renderer controller boxes -- I didn't put a screenshot of this. I just assumed you would have done this already

because I won't be using DLNA whatever setup I choose. Even if I share libraries, I won't be using DLNA to do it - I'll just be using simple library sharing over my home network, which doesn't require a DLNA setup.

I see what you're saying about using zones for other, non-related, purposes but I don't do playlists or shuffles or anything like that so I don't feel any need for them. I do see though that if I ever started setting up zones for such purposes, I would then need DLNA for other PCs to see them.

For now I've gone for a very simple approach. JRemote is now connected to my small hi-fi PC and nothing else. My small hi-fi PC gets its library from my main office PC. When I want to connect via the internet, I'll connect to the small hi-fi PC and will just have to remember to leave it permanently switched on  - as well as the main office PC otherwise the small hi-fi PC won't have access to its library! Darn, I only just thought of that - another complication. Thinking out loud, maybe the answer is, whenever I go away, I'll have to delete the small hi-fi PC from JRemote and add the main office PC instead, then revert to the previous setup when I return. Not a very elegant solution at all but this seems to be one of those situations where the seemingly simple turns out to be anything but.

There's still the two-port option of course so maybe I'll try that one day. Another approach, as you say, would be to put my main collection on the small hi-fi PC but as I said before, it probably won't fit and anyway I like to have where I can work on it. See - control freak as well as OCD!

[Arindelle]

Many thanks again. Unless I've misunderstood, it does seem to me you're confirming that there's no way of using JRemote to control two different PCs in two different rooms except, possibly, by setting up two different servers using two different ports as suggested by Hendrik. I think that's the key point to have emerged from what you've said because it does mean abandoning any idea of using zones to achieve a two-room setup via JRemote.

 ....

There's still the two-port option of course so maybe I'll try that one day. Another approach, as you say, would be to put my main collection on the small hi-fi PC but as I said before, it probably won't fit and anyway I like to have where I can work on it. See - control freak as well as OCD!

I think Richard it will work without the two port as mwillems said ... he knows:) The server options have to be set as he said though and to get to the options on both machines you are going to have to run media server on both so you can see the remote zones. The issue is what you described about JRiver getting confused and you blowing out the connection. The two ports, would in my understanding, make it clear in JRemote and would permit a separate server profile to be saved to your telephone/ipad. So when you go out you just choose the other one. I'd try it without the two ports -- that takes 2 secs to click media server on and check the boxes. When you have the time just port forward another port number and enter that in one of the two machines.

Don't get too hung up on the use of the term dlna, I know you don't have any dlna renderers I don't use them either right now. Don't like 'em 

just follow mwillems instructions anyways, there are no anti-audiophile consequences. And you really aren't controlling two machines at once -- you control one of them at a time while accessing the library of the office PC right? at least try it, k?

[mwillems]

I promise that your original goal is possible.  I do it every day.  I currently can control four client pcs from one central PC using the DLNA controller and renderer functionality built in to MC.  Those client PCs all appear as zones on the server PC (you don't have to manually create those zones, when MC detects a DLNA renderer it adds it as a zone).  

Additionally, all of those client PCs are also library clients of the one library server using JRiver's native library server system, and do not use DLNA server functionality.  You don't have to share the library via DLNA to use the DLNA controller/renderer functionality.  You can use JRiver's native non-DLNA library sharing and use the DLNA controller/renderer system at the same time: they are mutually reinforcing.  However, DLNA devices communicate differently than the library server (on different ports) so just because one is working correctly does not mean the other necessarily will.  

As I said above, if your client device has the DLNA renderer option checked and your server has the DLNA controller box checked and your client does not appear as a playback zone on your server, something on your network is preventing them from communicating.  Probably a firewall or your router.  If you haven't checked those boxes, you will have no way of controlling the client from the server and will need to log into each computer separately from JRemote.

If I turn on the DLNA controller option on a PC on my network, all the PCs that have the DLNA renderer option enabled on my network appear almost immediately as playback zones on that PC (whether or not they're sharing a library at all), and if I log into the server PC with Gizmo or JRemote I see those remote locations as playback zones.  If you are not seeing that, something in your home network configuration is preventing that from happening, or there is some other confusion about the settings.

You can control your Hi-Fi client from your main server PC; you just need to use the DLNA functions of JRiver to do it.  Note again that using DLNA this way is irrelevant to how you are sharing the library (you don't need to use a DLNA server, you can use JRiver's library server, you actually don't even need to share the library at all for this to work).

[richard-ec2]

Many thanks again, Arindelle.

Mwillems, turning to your post, this is extremely encouraging and thank you very much for explaining it so clearly.

Now, if I can just get it to work!

Because I think there must certainly be a fault on my home network. I can't see any DLNA stuff at all  - for example, I should be able to see my Samsung Smart TV but it's simply not there on the network - and although I can see other PCs on the network, I can't see them as media servers or clients in any view, never mind JRiver. I think this is something that happened when I upgraded to Windows 10 because I remember that I used to be able to see lots of media servers or renderers in my network view. So I think I have a lot of work ahead of me trying to solve this problem. It's something others have suffered through the Windows 10 upgrade, to judge by Googling it.

So, first priority is to get DLNA working and then I will test the "mwillems" setup and report back. I am full of hope and optimism!

[mwillems]

Because I think there must certainly be a fault on my home network. I can't see any DLNA stuff at all  - for example, I should be able to see my Samsung Smart TV but it's simply not there on the network - and although I can see other PCs on the network, I can't see them as media servers or clients in any view, never mind JRiver. I think this is something that happened when I upgraded to Windows 10 because I remember that I used to be able to see lots of media servers or renderers in my network view. So I think I have a lot of work ahead of me trying to solve this problem. It's something others have suffered through the Windows 10 upgrade, to judge by Googling it.

When you upgrade windows resets your firewall (the same thing happened to me), so what's probably happening is that JRiver is blocked by the windows firewall.  Check your firewall settings to make sure JRiver has permission.

[AndrewFG]

When you upgrade windows resets your firewall (the same thing happened to me), so what's probably happening is that JRiver is blocked by the windows firewall.  Check your firewall settings to make sure JRiver has permission.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/enable-disable-network-discovery

[Arindelle]

well, I just set-up my system like the OP's to check  ....

When I do as mwillems says I immediately get all the zones from all the PCs on the network.

However, I still have to add a server "connection" before JRemote can actually control the client machine using the servers library ... I can't get my network and JRemote (on IOS) to control the both the client and server PC with one login even if I can choose the zone nothing actually plays.

EDIT => OMG -- I know why I had to do it that way ... my zone switch rules were always pushing playback back to the playback zones on my server PC!! That's why I was so sure about the second server connection. It would never work unless I took off those rules ...

oooh this is very awkward .... I have to find a hole to crawl in -- a deep one    

Well, my heart was in right place, very embarrassing, so sorry for the confusion    

[richard-ec2]

Edit: this was written before the post immediately above which I haven't read yet.

Many thanks, guys. I'm sure DLNA is now working because in Explorer, under Network, I now have a fine array of Media Devices. (I'm sitting at my main office PC). Among these media devices there are TWO icons for the small hi-fi-PC in the other room. One has a little green arrow on it and if I doubleclick on this device, my internet browser opens up and I see this:



Then, if I click on "Audio Device" at the top right of that box, I see this:



The first three are playback devices in or attached to the hi-fi PC.

This looks to me quite encouraging. And yet I am still seeing no zones in JRiver on either PC or in JRemote.

What I see on my main office PC is "Player" and underneath no zones but a whole string of available libraries on various PCs on my home network.

Sitting here on my main office PC, if I mouse over the small hi-fi PC in the list of libraries, it invites me to load or configure the library and tells me it is a "DLNA library from a device on the network". But it refuses to appear as a zone!

On my main office PC, I have JRiver checked as a DLNA Server and DLNA Controller but unchecked as a DLNA Renderer. On the small hi-fi PC I have JRiver checked as a DLNA Renderer and the other two boxes unchecked.

Any thoughts?

[richard-ec2]

It's getting late here in London but I'll look forward to pursuing it tomorrow. Goodnight!

[mwillems]

Did you check your windows firewall to make sure that JRiver is added as an exception as I mentioned above?  That would explain why you can see it in explorer but not JRiver.  Check on both machines.

[richard-ec2]

Arindelle, many thanks indeed for posting your findings. There's no call for embarrassment at all  - I'm just very happy that another little mystery has been cleared up!

Mwillems, yes, I did check the firewall on both machines and both have MC20 cleared for private network (but not public network). In spite of what I said above I think the problem is still DLNA which for some reason that I haven't yet determined doesn't seem to be functioning on my network. For example, I still can't see my Samsung Smart TV and indeed the TV doesn't seem to have a network connection even though it's wired to the network. So I have to sort that out first and then I think the zones will be revealed.

[hoyt]

The discussion at hand is quite valuable, but I do think there's a problem with JRemote in this setup (two different media servers on one network).  I had posted on this shortly after installing JRemote and the issue still persists.

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=96348.msg668803#msg668803

In my case, I do not want my HTPC to just be a DLNA render.  I want to use it in Theatre View mode and control that, so it really should be a different MC Server instance (as I understand it).  However, if I'm on my phone, in JRemote, but not on my home wifi and select my HTPC as a device - the phone connects to the other server that is available to the outside world.  That is clearly wrong.  JRemote should not tell me that it's connected to a server that is not available.  I believe JRemote just uses the access key to lookup the internal and external address of the server, vs validating against the key when attempted to connect to the server.

Gizmo didn't do this.  JRemote shouldn't.

[richard-ec2]

Right, here's the latest update. I'm not even going to talk about JRemote for the moment because it's pointless until JRiver is showing the zones correctly on my PC.

I'm now confident that I have DLNA running on my network. I say that because I have a Samsung Smart TV that depends on DLNA for communication with the network and I can not only see that TV from all points in my network but I can also use it to play back music from the music folder of my main PC and to view pictures in the picture folder of my main PC. I'm almost certain I wouldn't be able to do that if DLNA wasn't functioning.

However, in JRiver, I still cannot see one PC as a zone in another PC.

I can show you quite neatly what I am seeing.

This first snapshot is taken from the main desktop PC in my home office. As you can see, in the overview, JRiver is seeing my TV as a zone  - it's called [TV]UE37ES6300. So that kinda supports the idea that my DLNA is indeed functioning. However, my small hi-fi PC in the other room isn't showing there as a player. It is, however, showing as a library - it's called Sentinel-PC and it's there underneath all the different users' libraries on the main office PC. Also, I've shown you the options I've checked and you can see that I've checked Controller.



The next snapshot is from the small hi-fi pc in the other room.

This time, in options, only the Renderer box is checked. The same libraries are showing but the TV has disappeared. However, if I check the controller box, the TV appears as a zone on this PC as well, so both PCs are functioning in exactly the same manner.



The big problem here of course is that the small hi-fi PC (Sentinel-PC) will not show up as a zone on my main PC.

So what am I doing wrong?

[Arindelle]

Hi Richard

I really hesitate misleading you again but when I set-up my system finally to more or less match your own (I have since undone this and just have an external connection right now), but as we are on similar time-zones (I'm in Paris), you might want to try this until I get home for a screen shot or mwillems is back online

this is what I did that worked (euh finally after I removed some zoneswitch rules as I said before which was why I was so adamant about the 2 servers  )

try this on the serverPC (office) - check all 3 DLNA options - server, renderer, controller

on clientPC (HTPC or Hi-Fi) - renderer+controller (at the very least renderer, I checked both when I tested)

you did not post a screen-shot for client options:  show server zones on client (or something like that) has to be checked. Did you do this?

you probably need/want media server to auto-load with windows? - set this in options=>start-up on only the serverPC. Exit MC on both machines, restart JRiver (make sure mediaserver.exe ran on the serverPC, should be in the notification are in windows)

I'll check back later in the day to see how you are getting on

[richard-ec2]

Many thanks indeed, Arindelle, I really appreciate your kindness and help.

You wouldn't believe how many hours I've spent trying to crack this!

But I have finally made some progress. After exhausting all other avenues I installed a new copy of MC20 on a family member's Windows 10 laptop just to see what happened. And at last, I am seeing something. The laptop can see everything and everything can see the laptop. BUT, as previously, the main office PC and the hi-fi PC STILL cannot see other at all. And, although the laptop can see both of them, it cannot see both at the same time - it can only see either one or the other! So there is obviously some kind of conflict between the main office PC and the hi-fi PC.

I have followed all your instructions by the way but I think the answer to this riddle lies in a conflict which I now have to resolve.

[Arindelle]

ok, good luck then ... probably a firewall/router config issue then or network discovery problem; I used authentification, but shouldn't think that matters.

just 2 things though,

- you said you followed the instructions (client options included), so you just changed these? Your screenshots do not indicate you have, btw. and can't see if you have set zones to show or not. I hope it is as simple as a simple check box you forgot !

- I see you have so many libraries ... you probably have your reasons, but unless you are trying to censor/protect stuff from prying eyes, there are other ways via tagging/views to separate this out. I mention this because (and I'm fishing here) you load another library the settings could change  -- as long as only the one your "Main" library is being used this shouldn't affect anything I suppose but could all those other ones be accessing something at the same time?? not sure;

[richard-ec2]

It's fixed!

Just quickly, though, the reason for all those libraries is because there are many users on the Main Office PC and they all have music folders etc and since MC20 is available to all users, it shows all their folders. However most of them are empty and one of these days I'll get around to finding a way of not showing them.

Now, the fix.

I finally decided it was most likely to be a conflict between MC20 on the one PC and MC20 on the other. I remembered that I'd cloned my settings for MC20 on the one PC from the MC20 settings on the other so I wondered if maybe the DLNA network was seeing them as exactly the same thing yet in two different places and couldn't resolve the anomaly. So after backing up MC20 on the main office PC, I uninstalled it and installed a fresh copy. Sure enough - problem solved. Now all versions on all PCs see each other.

I then had a look at the backup file and this is what I found:



See right at the top there? There's a DLNA file with a number - and exactly the same file with exactly the same number appears in the backup folder of MC20 on the other PC. (Not shown, there's another duplicate DLNA file further down the list, too.) So I reckon that's the conflict.

Anyway I now have to rebuild MC20 on the main office PC and after that, maybe I can get back on-topic at last and see if I can control the whole setup from JRemote!

[Arindelle]

WELL good news !! glad to here this one is finally sorted. It drove me crazy, but I learned something at least.

Strange about the file, though. If you have imported the settings, normally they would have reset themselves to the new local ones, but hey who cares right 

[AndrewFG]

There's a DLNA file with a number - and exactly the same file with exactly the same number appears in the backup folder of MC20 on the other PC. (Not shown, there's another duplicate DLNA file further down the list, too.) So I reckon that's the conflict.

Every UPnP device (i.e. media server or renderer) advertises itself with a UUID (Universally Unique ID), and if two instances of servers or renderers advertise themselves using the same (not so) UUID, that certainly causes major confusion all round.

Nevertheless I don't think that the file that you mention is the actual problem; it is rather the entries in the Windows registry. MC has a "Player Zone - ID (UUID)" value in the Windows registry for each of its renderers, and a "Server UUID" for each of its media servers. So if your two PCs had cloned the same registry entries for any of these UUIDs then there certainly would be trouble.

Putting aside any general network confusion caused by multiple advertisements on the LAN, MC filters out from its libraries display tree any servers "on itself", and it filters out from its players display tree any renderers "on itself". So if a server or renderer existed with duplicate UUIDs on two instances of MC then neither would show up on either instance due to this "on itself" filtering. (Leading to bizarre counter intuitive observations where e.g. if you disable the server or renderer on instance A, then the server or renderer on instance B will suddenly re-appear on instance A).

[richard-ec2]

That's a really interesting explanation, AndrewFG, and seems to be what happened here. Hopefully it's a fairly rare occurrence or a lot of people would be having the same problem as me. Heaven knows how I got myself into that particular mess.

Anyway, with that resolved, setting up JRemote is a breeze. JRemote is now connected only to my main office PC, which is where the main music collection resides. The hi-fi PC in the other room now appears as a zone on the main PC and similarly appears as a zone on JRemote. So I can listen to music wherever I want just by flipping from one zone to the other, always streaming music from my main collection. Hopefully it will also be easy enough to access my main office PC over the internet when I'm away from home, using the same access key on JRemote.

The only thing to watch, I found, is that you're truly getting your music through at full resolution. You have to be very careful to get the settings right not only on the client PC but also on the server PC. But my hi res tracks are now coming through in all their glory at 24/96.

It did feel ever so slightly clunky - meaning a bit slow and unresponsive - at first but I'll stay with it a week or two and see how it shapes up.

Many thanks indeed to all who've contributed here.

[richard-ec2]

Just a quick update:

1. I really do have problems in cloning an MC library and settings from one PC to another. In my experience, and I've tried doing more than once now, if you do this by performing a library backup on the first PC, and then installing that backup on your new PC, you will not have the zone function because the two servers will not see each other as DLNA servers. I believe this is because they are identical twins and they produce a conflict on your home network.

In my experience you can copy your library with all its fields to another PC, but you cannot copy your user settings if you want to use DLNA because you will have a conflict. So you can copy the library but you cannot copy your user settings - you have to re-enter them all manually.

If someone has found a better way, I would love to hear it!

Maybe the only reason we haven't heard more about this problem is because few people use zones for different PCs.

2. On the zones themselves, my verdict is, when it works, it works very well, but it's not stable or reliable enough for everyday use and so I've decided to give up on it. The trouble is, there are too many things to go wrong and, DLNA being a little wobbly and unstable, they too often do. I find that if you leave your PCS on 24 hours a day and don't touch anything, it's fine, but as soon as PCs start going to sleep or shutting down, you start getting problems with dropped connections and things not seeing each other, etc. So it's all too easy to get into a situation where you make yourself a cup of coffee and sit down to listen to an album and then spend so long trying to get the thing fired up that by the time any music starts coming out of the system, your coffee's gone cold!

Even when it's working properly, there are two problems. One is that the hi-fi zone can take an age to appear on the iPad because for some reason it takes the DLNA servers a long time to spot each other. (Again, the coffee going cold scenario.) The other big problem is that, when playing back an album, everything is fine as long as you don't interrupt play but everything goes haywire if you try to do anything like replaying a section or skipping a track or repeating a track. The player loses track of where you are and doesn't even know which track you're listening to any more and it's virtually impossible to retrieve the situation  - at the very least, you end up with the player skipping a track.

Most of the time the setup works OK but I find that every time I want to listen to some music, I'm wondering whether it's actually going to work or not  - and sometimes it doesn't. I don't want that uncertainty. So I'm going right back to basics - I'm going to keep a synced copy of my music library on my hi-fi PC and will control that PC directly with JRemote. That should be as near as possible to rock solid. I'll still maintain my music collection on my main office PC but I'll just have to remember to do a sync every day. And any time I go out traveling, I'll either just have to leave the hi-fi PC permanently switched on or delete it from JRemote and enter the access code for the main office PC instead.

[AndrewFG]

Following are some tips in order to keep UPnP / DLNA bindings as stable as possible..

• Connect all media devices via wired Ethernet rather than WiFi wherever possible
• Ensure that all media devices have fixed IP addresses (either via DHCP with DHCP server IP address reservations, or alternatively set Static addresses on each device)
• Keep all media devices connected to power (use sleep/standby instead of power off)
• Ensure that your network router supports routing of UDP multicast and UDP unicast datagrams
• Ensure that your firewall and/or anti- virus software is not blocking any TCP or UDP traffic to/from MC.exe

[richard-ec2]

I think I had all those boxes checked but good advice all the same.

[richard-ec2]

Oh no! I don't believe it!

I thought I'd made my setup bomb-proof by going back to the simplest, most basic setup available - JRemote connected to one PC only on my home network. But no. It's still happening, just as I described in the opening post of this thread. If JRemote can't find my PC, because it's shut down, it doesn't just give me a "can't connect" message. Instead, it goes into my settings without my permission, deletes the access code of my PC, replaces it with the (completely different) access code of another PC it can see on my home network, and tries to connect to that PC instead! What's more, the overwrite is permanent, meaning it doesn't revert back to the original PC when it becomes available. If I try to restore my original settings JRemote just goes haywire and starts calling PCs by the wrong names and doing all kinds of crazy things and the only way you can restore sanity is by uninstalling JRemote completely and starting all over again.

This is driving me nuts. Can anyone replicate this? You need a home network with two PCs, each with MC with its own separate access code. You connect JRemote to one PC only. Then, after closing JRemote and the PC, reopen JRemote and see if it switches access codes and tries to connect to the other PC instead, without your permission.

[mwillems]

If you want to solve your problem permanently my advice is to either follow Hendrik's advice at the start of this thread (have different PC's listen on different ports) or skip using the access code and use the PC's IP addresses to connect directly instead of the access code (which is my preferred solution).  Just pick IP address instead of access code when setting up the servers and you'll be set.  

The IP method requires static IP addresses to work well, but you've indicated that you've already done that above anyway.

[richard-ec2]

I can certainly see the point of two different ports if you have two different PCs listed on your JRemote. But if you only have one PC on your JRemote, you'd be talking about adding another PC to your JRemote for no other purpose than to give it a different port number, which seems a bit odd!

I think the second suggestion is more appealing and in fact I've already set this up to see whether it overcomes the problem. (As you say, I already have static IPs, otherwise it wouldn't work.) The trouble is, without an access key, you can't access MC from outside your home network so you have to change the settings every time you leave home and every time you come back, which could be a problem for some people. I'm guessing you'll say you can just enter your internet IP address in the settings but most people have a dynamic internet IP address as far as I know, so that wouldn't work either.

I'm still puzzled as to whether this is the same for everyone or whether it's just me (and if so, why). I'd have thought anyone with MC on two different PCs in their home would be having the same problems but if they are, they're keeping very quiet about it!

Edit: many thanks for changing the thread title - it's far better than it was.

[mwillems]

I can certainly see the point of two different ports if you have two different PCs listed on your JRemote. But if you only have one PC on your JRemote, you'd be talking about adding another PC to your JRemote for no other purpose than to give it a different port number, which seems a bit odd!

I think the second suggestion is more appealing and in fact I've already set this up to see whether it overcomes the problem. (As you say, I already have static IPs, otherwise it wouldn't work.) The trouble is, without an access key, you can't access MC from outside your home network so you have to change the settings every time you leave home and every time you come back, which could be a problem for some people. I'm guessing you'll say you can just enter your internet IP address in the settings but most people have a dynamic internet IP address as far as I know, so that wouldn't work either.

I'm still puzzled as to whether this is the same for everyone or whether it's just me (and if so, why). I'd have thought anyone with MC on two different PCs in their home would be having the same problems but if they are, they're keeping very quiet about it!

Edit: many thanks for changing the thread title - it's far better than it was.

If you want access from outside of your network, there are two easy ways to fix your problem (and a few harder ones, but I'll leave those out).

Either:
1) take Hendrik's advice and change the port on the second PC (I think you may be misunderstanding what Hendrik is suggesting, see below)
2) Keep using the access code for your server and setup your router to only forward 52199 packets to the server's internal IP address (the one you want to access from outside your LAN) instead of indiscriminately forwarding all packets sent to 52199.  If you want to add a second computer to JRemote, use it's local IP address instead of its access code.  If you want external access to more than one computer, you'll need to use method 1) instead.

The first method is probably the easiest (it takes two clicks and some typing) and I think you might be confused about what Hendrik is suggesting.  He's advising you to change the port that Media Center is listening for on your computer not in JRemote.  The problem is that when JRemote fails to connect to the internal IP address of your server, it tries to access it from the WAN address.  But you have two computers listening on port 52199, so when a packet comes in from the WAN your router apparently isn't configured to only send the packets to one computer, so either computer can scoop the packet up and reply, which confuses JRemote (it's only expecting one computer to be answering).  

You need to fix this routing problem one way or another (either by fixing your router configuration or your MC configuration).  The easiest way to do it is to change the port setting in the media network settings on the secondary computer, not in JRemote.  That way only one computer is listening on 52199, so only one computer can answer no matter what.  Part of what may be confusing you is that JRemote can't actually control which ports the PC is listening on, that's a setting you have to change on the PC itself. JRemote just tries to connect to whatever port you tell it to (right or wrong), and if you give it information that could lead to two different computers you will get unpredictable results. Following Hendrik's advice doesn't require adding a second computer to JRemote, but if you did want to have both computers in JRemote you'd need to account for the different port setting obviously.  

Seriously, if you take his advice it should take less than five minutes and will almost certainly solve this part of your problem.  I've tried to explain the whys and wherefores, but if you still have doubts, it may be worth your while to just try it on faith and see.

The second method I mention is almost as easy and attacks the problem from the other side (fixing your router config).  It's also probably a good idea to do this approach as well from a general security perspective (why would you want to forward all the 52199 packets from the internet at large to any LAN computers that might be listening instead of just to your server?).

[richard-ec2]

That's an incredibly good & clear explanation. So good I think even I understand it!

So all it comes down to really is changing the port number in MC so that the two PCs have different port numbers.

Presumably I will then have to delete the settings on JRemote and reload them, using the appropriate access code for the PC I want to access, and JRemote will automatically enter the new port number. I will then never get the wrong PC again!

Surely option 2 isn't so much an alternative to option 1, but rather an additional step? Obviously, if I want to access a PC on my home network from somewhere else, I will have to set up port forwarding on my router, so the port numbers I use will have to match the port numbers I chose in option 1.

I think all you're saying there is that, since I'm changing port numbers anyway, it would be a good idea to avoid choosing 52199 altogether when setting up port forwarding and have my own numbers instead of the generic one.

Or maybe I've misunderstood that bit and you weren't talking about port forwarding at all.

The only downside I can see in all of this is that anytime I reset a router or MC or a PC there's a risk I'll lose the port number if I'm not fully backed up so the connection will be lost unless or until I remember how I set it up. I'd better bookmark this thread!

[mwillems]

That's an incredibly good & clear explanation. So good I think even I understand it!

So all it comes down to really is changing the port number in MC so that the two PCs have different port numbers.

Presumably I will then have to delete the settings on JRemote and reload them, using the appropriate access code for the PC I want to access, and JRemote will automatically enter the new port number. I will then never get the wrong PC again!

Yes!

Surely option 2 isn't so much an alternative to option 1, but rather an additional step? Obviously, if I want to access a PC on my home network from somewhere else, I will have to set up port forwarding on my router, so the port numbers I use will have to match the port numbers I chose in option 1.

Sorry, I assumed you had already set up port forwarding, as the packets are passing through your router from the outside (or you wouldn't have this problem to begin with).  If you haven't, you should.

I think all you're saying there is that, since I'm changing port numbers anyway, it would be a good idea to avoid choosing 52199 altogether when setting up port forwarding and have my own numbers instead of the generic one.

Or maybe I've misunderstood that bit and you weren't talking about port forwarding at all.

No, that's not what I was suggesting.  There are a number of ways to handle router port-forwarding, but the way I was suggesting was that you make sure that the router only forwards packets on 52199 to one specific computer (i.e. the computer that you want to access from outside the LAN).  It's not about choosing a different port number, it's about ensuring that only one computer gets the packets for a specific port number (whatever it is).  Currently your router is just sending the external 52199 packets to any computer that's listening on that port, which is the source of your problem.

Keep using the default port (52199) on one of your computers (ideally the one you want external access on).  Just make sure the other computer is listening on a different port and/or your router is only routing 52199 packets to one PC.

[richard-ec2]

No, that's not what I was suggesting.  There are a number of ways to handle router port-forwarding, but the way I was suggesting was that you make sure that the router only forwards packets on 52199 to one specific computer (i.e. the computer that you want to access from outside the LAN).  It's not about choosing a different port number, it's about ensuring that only one computer gets the packets for a specific port number (whatever it is).  Currently your router is just sending the external 52199 packets to any computer that's listening on that port, which is the source of your problem.

Keep using the default port (52199) on one of your computers (ideally the one you want external access on).  Just make sure the other computer is listening on a different port and/or your router is only routing 52199 packets to one PC.

Although I do have port forwarding set up at the moment, for port 52199, in actual fact it's already set up so that all traffic is routed to only one IP address on my network. That address is the address of my main office PC - and I'm wondering if that's the source of my problem.

Let's say JRemote is only linked by access code to my small hi-fi PC. I try to reach the small PC with JRemote but the PC is switched off. So JRemote's next step is to try to locate it via the internet. On doing this, it reaches my home network via the internet and is directed via port 52199 to the only PC it can find, which is the main office PC. So it connects with that, and that's where all the confusion sets in.

Regardless, different port numbers is clearly the answer. Are you saying that one of the numbers MUST be 52199? Or can I use any numbers I like? Or are they in a range?