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More => Old Versions => JRiver Media Center 29 for Windows => Topic started by: murray on March 30, 2022, 01:23:16 am
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I know JR always says to use LPCM rather than Bitstream and I do that, but Ive always wondered what happens to the Atmos tracks I play from time to time, what is removed, cut out etc etc in the sound?
I have an Atmos setup but hate setting JR to bitstream as I can see the frames dropping in a movie as the video clock is disabled when we set JR to bitstream. I know Im not missing anything using LPCM for all film soundtracks, just Atmos, am I loosing anything much on those titles?
When Ive tested Atmos tracks with JR set to bitstream I really dont notice the sound to be any better than when I have JR set to LPCM, but I must be loosing something :(
Frame drops in bitstreaming are just the most horrid thing and totally spoil a movie for me!.......Being an X cinema projectionist of 35+ years its like watching 35mm with lots of film splices, jumps in the frame :o
JR using LPCM is as smooth as butter!
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If you don't bitstream, I think the Atmos substreams are just ignored.
Atmos is not something you can hear 100% of the time. It's mostly used for overhead sound effects (think rain, thunderstorm, helicopter...) or to create ambiant "bubbles" of sound with "atmospheric" effects (think horror movies, deep dark caves, rainforest...). IMO it's not as essential as surround but when it's (smartly) used it's pretty neat. I also think overhead speakers are pretty much mandatory. So-called "Atmos" soundbars or speakers that rely on bouncing sound waves on the ceiling are placebo.
I totally get why you would prefer perfectly smooth playback over Atmos. But usually (and especially with 4K and newest drivers) bitstreaming doesn't lead to many dropped/repeated frames...
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I know JR always says to use LPCM rather than Bitstream and I do that, but Ive always wondered what happens to the Atmos tracks I play from time to time, what is removed, cut out etc etc in the sound?
I have an Atmos setup but hate setting JR to bitstream as I can see the frames dropping in a movie as the video clock is disabled when we set JR to bitstream. I know Im not missing anything using LPCM for all film soundtracks, just Atmos, am I loosing anything much on those titles?
When Ive tested Atmos tracks with JR set to bitstream I really dont notice the sound to be any better than when I have JR set to LPCM, but I must be loosing something :(
Frame drops in bitstreaming are just the most horrid thing and totally spoil a movie for me!.......Being an X cinema projectionist of 35+ years its like watching 35mm with lots of film splices, jumps in the frame :o
JR using LPCM is as smooth as butter!
To be clear: Atmos is only important if you have a speaker setup with ceiling or height speakers and a receiver or pre/pro that handles it.
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I have a full Atmos setup with in ceiling speakers.
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If you don't bitstream, I think the Atmos substreams are just ignored.
Atmos is not something you can hear 100% of the time. It's mostly used for overhead sound effects (think rain, thunderstorm, helicopter...) or to create ambiant "bubbles" of sound with "atmospheric" effects (think horror movies, deep dark caves, rainforest...). IMO it's not as essential as surround but when it's (smartly) used it's pretty neat. I also think overhead speakers are pretty much mandatory. So-called "Atmos" soundbars or speakers that rely on bouncing sound waves on the ceiling are placebo.
I totally get why you would prefer perfectly smooth playback over Atmos. But usually (and especially with 4K and newest drivers) bitstreaming doesn't lead to many dropped/repeated frames...
I have the 180Ti card, are there some special drivers there that stop the dropped frames when JR is bitstreaming?
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Videoclock is one of the best features of MC but as you point out, does not work when Bitstreaming. I've several HTPC, one of which feeds a 7.2.4 setup and on this setup I bitstream to get ATMOS/DTS-X (the rest I use decoding and videoclock). I used to fine tune the timings in CRU to get a profile that would minimise (well eliminate) drops/repeats on this one HTPC for a normal runtime of a movie. It took hours to fine tune this and also get a signal that my JVC would accept.
Now the good news, is that I've upgraded all my HTPC to Windows 11. I don't know what changes they have made but frame drops/repeats from drifting clocks seems to have been addressed! Apart from the start up (and maybe one in the first minute), I now get excellent results without frame drops or repeats using the std nvidia drivers, and MC's auto frame rate switching. I've tested this on both a 1660Ti (this is one one driving the 7.2.4 setup) and a 3090 (my main PC but only 3.1) using UHD 23.976fps material. I'm running Dune UHD BD 23.796fps with ATMOS right now as a test, so far 0 dropped/repeated frames (after say 45min). Will repost the end results.
For me Win11 has been a great upgrade for HTPC users, as I find:
1: HDR ON all the time works well (it tonemaps SDR (including the desktop and apps) --> HDR) so none of that annoying switching between HDR/SDR modes, and SDR looks fine.
2: Sync of the GPU's frequency with the desired media frame rate is much better, leading to much fewer (if any) frame drops/repeats when bitstreaming.
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Videoclock is one of the best features of MC but as you point out, does not work when Bitstreaming. I've several HTPC, one of which feeds a 7.2.4 setup and on this setup I bitstream to get ATMOS/DTS-X (the rest I use decoding and videoclock). I used to fine tune the timings in CRU to get a profile that would minimise (well eliminate) drops/repeats on this one HTPC for a normal runtime of a movie. It took hours to fine tune this and also get a signal that my JVC would accept.
Now the good news, is that I've upgraded all my HTPC to Windows 11. I don't know what changes they have made but frame drops/repeats from drifting clocks seems to have been addressed! Apart from the start up (and maybe one in the first minute), I now get excellent results without frame drops or repeats using the std nvidia drivers, and MC's auto frame rate switching. I've tested this on both a 1660Ti (this is one one driving the 7.2.4 setup) and a 3090 (my main PC but only 3.1) using UHD 23.976fps material. I'm running Dune UHD BD 23.796fps with ATMOS right now as a test, so far 0 dropped/repeated frames (after say 45min). Will repost the end results.
For me Win11 has been a great upgrade for HTPC users, as I find:
1: HDR ON all the time works well (it tonemaps SDR (including the desktop and apps) --> HDR) so none of that annoying switching between HDR/SDR modes, and SDR looks fine.
2: Sync of the GPU's frequency with the desired media frame rate is much better, leading to much fewer (if any) frame drops/repeats when bitstreaming.
Thank you so much jmone for your reply its much appreciated!
As Im a bit green on this side of things, may I ask for more details from you please....
Is the 1660Ti card better than the 1080Ti card?
Do you think I should move to the 1660Ti card if I want to have very few dropped frames with bitstreaming?
I have the JVC NX9 on a 145" curved Stewart STG4 microperf screen, dropped frames when bitstreaming is horrid so I can only use JR LPCM with the JR video clock which is AMAZING! I use madvr HDR to SDR for all my 4K HDR films and it works a treat....
Do you need Windows 11 with the 1660Ti card to stop the dropped frames when bitstreaming? My PC guy just told me windows 11 is SHOCKING! He says its loaded with ads and pop-ups and is afraid they may appear in the middle of a movie which would be horrid!
if I just moved to Windows 11 and stayed with the 1080Ti card would the frame dropes on bitstreaming go away?
Ive had a proper Atmos setup ever since it first came out but never ever used it as I cant live with the dropped frames!
You say sync times are faster but the JVC is slow anyway so surely this wouldnt speed up going from say a 60 film to a 24fps film?
Thank you so much for your help....Looks like I need some further investigating here....
I also years ago tried to fine tune the timings but it was an impossible journey Im sad to say :(
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Hi Murray, my test is still running but I'll post some screen shots and details of how I have MC and the JVC X7500 setup later today, but a couple of quick comments for now:
- Your 1080Ti is fine for now (later 3000 series cards may offer the ability to run better / more intensive scaling algo's but I don't think it will change the frame drops)
- I was using madVR HDR to SDR (and in the test I'm using madVR so I can see some clock info) but now I'm using JRVR as the results are excellent and the GPU overhead is less (but note: madVR still offer some features that you may need/want)
- The time it takes for the JVC to sync to a change in the HDMI signal is no better or worse on different OS (eg, it is the JVC that is slow when changing resolutions/frame rates). I meant that the sync between the desired / selected GPU Refresh Rate and that of the media being played seems better = lower # of dropped / repeated frames once the JVC has locked on.
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OK, So Dune finished with a total of 2 dropped frames while bit streaming the Atmos Audio (I'd guess it was about a frame drop every 50min or so).
- The first thing to try is to make sure that the in Tools--> Options--> Video--> Display Settings is setup correctly (See Pic). This should put your GPU into the closest matching Frequency for the Frame Rate of your movie, eg 23.976hz (ish) for a 23.976 film. Play a movie and see how well (or not well) you go with frame drops / repeats and post a screen shot of the the OSD (cntrl+J when the movie is playing).
- I've also put in the settings I use from JRVR. I don't expect it would change the frame drop/repeat over madVR but FWIW I think JRVR is the way forward (unless you have a specific feature requirement that is only in madVR).
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I see you have Display Settings to custom in JR, are those settings exactly the same if one just sets Display Settings to ON?
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"Wait after change" used to be nested under Custom and I had to make that 3sec to avoid issues with the audio not syncing. You should be able to just use "On" (and get the same as what I've set for each frame rate) and be able to set "Wait after change"
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So if you are using "ON" and have set "Wait after change" to say 3 sec, you should be good to go. Play a video and let us know how your frame drops/repeats are going, I'd be interested in how often you get them.....
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Im just testing now and will report back soon. How many repeats did you get, you only mention 2 frame drops no repeats? Do repeats actually show as a jump or are they nothing to worry about?
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I had 2 drops and 0 repeats. These will be due to the difference in the clocks display frequence vs fps. If you are getting both drops and repeats (after the first 10sec) then there are other issues to solve first.
Edit - you will notice a repeat as much as a drop.
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I had 2 drops and 0 repeats. These will be due to the difference in the clocks display frequence vs fps. If you are getting both drops and repeats (after the first 10sec) then there are other issues to solve first.
Edit - you will notice a repeat as much as a drop.
Yes Ive realised now that its repeats Im always getting not dropped frames when I bitstream. When I use JR LPCM there are no repeats or dropped frames, just the usual couple at the start up of a film.
Take a look here I played "Death on the Nile" for 52 mins and had 14 repeats, these are the jumps Im seeing in the picture. My settings are the same as yours.
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Ive just checked again and Im also getting dropped frames with the same display settings as you. 50mins and 11 dropped frames and 14 repeated frames, this isnt good.
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I've done a quick test with my 3090 on Win 11 Bitstreaming Audio. When playback madVR says the starts clock deviation is fairly high and that I'll drop a frame every minute. As playback continues the expect time for a frame drop increases, from minutes to hours, to days then none at all (over a 10min playback period in the attached screen shot). The real measure is how many is actually dropped or repeated (rather than expected or the measured clock deviation). I'd also seen previously these measures change (as apparatnly the chip used for this timing on the audio clock can vary with heat etc).
Anyway, all I can say is that on Win 11 I've got results with stock setup that I had to fine tune on Win 10. No idea why but it is the same on both my 3090 and 1660Ti. I've not found any downside to upgrading to Win 11 for HTPC use.... only positives.
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How long have you used windows 11 and have you ever had any popups or ads appear when playing a film. When I use JR LPCM mine then shows after 10 mins or so no frame drops/repeated frames expected.....
So with all this testing it looks like its windows 11 that fixes the problem is that what you think too?
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I've used Win11 since the insider builds on the 3090 PC (so a year ish I guess) and Win 11 on all my HTPC since when it went RTM late last year. Never seen (or even heard of) popups or ads?!?!?!
My Win 11 --> 1660Ti --> Yami 3070 / Axiom 3ch Power Amp (7.2.4) --> JVC x7500 --> 125" perf screen setup is the one I bitstream on and is many years old (270 chipset). This is exactly the same gear I had to setup the tuned custom res and "maybe" something is left over from the upgrade from Win10 to Win11 but I doubt it. I'll probably upgrade the 1660Ti at some point on this system in line with JRVR development to get access to the extra GPU horsepower that may be needed.... but for now I can live with 2 dropped/repeated frames on this setup Vs similar results to what you were seeing. I'd at one point even setup MC Zones on this HTPC to only bitstream if the Audio track was ATMOS or DTS:X but I've now stopped that as well. In actually veiwing (without the OSD up), I've not noticed any repeated / dropped frames.... but originally found myself counting down from 50 odd seconds that I originally had when bistreaming.
The 3090 build has a pretty modern MOBO in comparison so it may have a "better" clock. I should say, I decode on all HTPCs except for the Win 11 --> 1660Ti --> Yami 3070 / Axiom 3ch Power Amp (7.2.4) --> JVC x7500 --> 125" perf screen as this is the only setup above 5.1 speakers.
So.... I'd suggest:
- Take a backup of your PC
- Upgrade to Win 11 and see if it makes a difference
- Restore your backup if it is a POS, or hopefully do a happy dance!
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One other thing to check - https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,130657.msg910638.html#msg910638
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...also Hendrik may have a better insight if there is actually a win10 to win11 difference with this or if it is just a "fluke".
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I'm not aware of any changes they made to Win11, but I haven't used it yet myself, so who knows.
If I wanted to bitstream personally, I would tune the refresh rate to be as close as possible, it seems complicated at first but its really not so bad. With TVs its also not so hard to find a mode that works, projectors tend to be a bit more finnicky.
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It looks like we have to try Windows 11 then even if my PC guy doesn't like it. Good to know you have never seen any pop ups or ads in the last year, I'm not sure why he said that was the problem with 11.
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One other thing to check - https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,130657.msg910638.html#msg910638
Ok I've made those changes. My vertical sync wasn't ON and Power Management was on Adaptive as they always used to say that's where it should be, I remember that. I've just changed it to Prefer Max Performance but nothing has changed.
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I'm not aware of any changes they made to Win11, but I haven't used it yet myself, so who knows.
If I wanted to bitstream personally, I would tune the refresh rate to be as close as possible, it seems complicated at first but its really not so bad. With TVs its also not so hard to find a mode that works, projectors tend to be a bit more finnicky.
Hendrik, so maybe Windows 11 doesnt fix the problem, it might just be a fluke for jmone???
Do you only use LPCM for everything with video clock?
I tried to do the timings many many years ago but I thought it was a nightmare with my JVCs ?
Is there a simple tutorial if Im to try it again please?
If one could just get it right for 23.97fps do you then have to do all the rest, 24, 50, 60 etc etc?
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Re Win 10 vs Win 11. Only one way to see if it is just my setup!
- Back up
- Upgrade
- Test
FYI - I only tuned 23.976 as that was the majority of the content. I doubt you can just copy someone else's setting as it is about tuning your particular setup. I also found the JVC was very picky and you had to make small changes (or else it would fail to display an image).... but I did manage to get it dialled in using CRU.
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Re Win 10 vs Win 11. Only one way to see if it is just my setup!
- Back up
- Upgrade
- Test
FYI - I only tuned 23.976 as that was the majority of the content. I doubt you can just copy someone else's setting as it is about tuning your particular setup. I also found the JVC was very picky and you had to make small changes (or else it would fail to display an image).... but I did manage to get it dialled in using CRU.
Yes Im going to ask my PC guy to try 11 for me and I will report back. Do you have to buy 11 to test it?
Is there a tutorial you can point me to that I can test the timings for 23.97 while I wait please?
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Win 11 is a free upgrade and should appear in Windows Update (note: this is pending if your PC has the required HW & Config - here is a Win 11 compatibility checker - https://github.com/rcmaehl/WhyNotWin11 )
There is this guide on how to use madVR to change some timing that may help - http://madvr.com/crt/CustomResTutorial.html which I did use at some point and it certainly got closer. I'm not sure I had a Guide to CRU but I'll check.
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Win 11 is a free upgrade and should appear in Windows Update (note: this is pending if your PC has the required HW & Config - here is a Win 11 compatibility checker - https://github.com/rcmaehl/WhyNotWin11 )
There is this guide on how to use madVR to change some timing that may help - http://madvr.com/crt/CustomResTutorial.html which I did use at some point and it certainly got closer. I'm not sure I had a Guide to CRU but I'll check.
Thanks for that re 11.
Im going to try a 23 timing today until we can try 11. I dont use the madvr side of things for display mode these days so when one does you wouuld have to make sure display modes in JR are set to OFF, is that correct?
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I never used display rate switching in madVR as it is better to use MC as it switches before playback starts - so leave it as is. I'm running on years old memory here, so just had a look at this option in the madVR diag on two different MC29 setup and the "Custom Modes Tab" option does not appear (well the TAB flashes quickly then disappears). So I'm out of luck being able to help on testing. I did find an old print out from a screen shot of my settings however if that helps (but yours will no doubt be different).
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...and don't get too excited about the claims of being drop/repeat free for 7.79hours in that screenshot.... it was about 40-50min in reality.
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...and don't get too excited about the claims of being drop/repeat free for 7.79hours in that screenshot.... it was about 40-50min in reality.
Ive just tried to do the timings again and I now remember from a long time ago it was a nightmare way back then, Ive stopped and given up!
All I have left is to try windows 11 :(
Thank you for all your help jmone, I just wish it had been alot easier....
I really dont know what all the guys who use JR actually do if they want HD audio and need to bitstream, surely they dont live with lots of dropped and repeated frames??
I wish one of the experts on here that love JR would create something better for bitstreaming, that seems to be a forgotten area in JR :(
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Yup it
is was a PITA.
FYI - I just tried bitstreaming on another HTPC (older Shuttle Gen 7 CPU with another 1660Ti --> 5.1) also running Win11. After 30min no dropped or repeated frames on this one either (as playback continued the expect time for a frame drop increased from sec to about 15-min before I stopped it)
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So I don't know if it is Win11, the latest nvidia drivers, or a combination of the two.... but Bitstreaming works pretty well across 3 different setups for me now.
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So I don't know if it is Win11, the latest nvidia drivers, or a combination of the two.... but Bitstreaming works pretty well across 3 different setups for me now.
Ok thank you so much for all your time you have been extremely helpful. I just have to try windows 11 and see if I can finally bitstream without massive frame drops/repeats.
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No probs - It's been intriguing!
Just tested a NUC7 iGPU (Win 11) bitstreaming and it too had 0 dropped/repeated frames after 30min. This one I had to run using JRVR as it really does not have the horsepower for madVR but is perfect under JRVR.
It would be interesting to see if other Win11 users are seeing the same thing.
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No probs - It's been intriguing!
Just tested a NUC7 iGPU (Win 11) bitstreaming and it too had 0 dropped/repeated frames after 30min. This one I had to run using JRVR as it really does not have the horsepower for madVR but is perfect under JRVR.
It would be interesting to see if other Win11 users are seeing the same thing.
Well it certainly looks like you have nailed the dropped/repeated frames when bitstreaming on many PCs. If it isnt Wndows 11 that fixed the issues then what is it!!!
Ive hung off using JRVR even though I bought 29 as Im too afraid it wont match the amazing image I have from madvr. As I was a projectionist for more than 35+ years in Auckland and Sydney im real fussy about my image on the screen. I would move to JRVR if it matched my madvr image but even so it still cant fix the bitstreaming problems......
Your thoughts?
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It's great that we have lots of options in MC for what renderer to use. The good news is that JRVR is at the beginning of it's development cycle and already has some advantages over madVR. The prime one for me is that it can produce a very good quality image far more efficiently and hence run on a range of HW platforms (and over multiple OS). It is also much easier to configure than madVR (especially for newcommers). The big advantage that madVR has is the multitude of options, settings, and tweaks you can play with to "dial" it in as you like. My biggest screen is a 125" 16:9 (JVC x7500) with a seating distance of about 3meters and I find the image very pleasing being tone mapped by JRVR (but my setup is very straight forward) and we mostly watch high quality UHD sources on this (aka "movie night"). Most of the others are 60" OLED's and HDR Passthrough looks good on these for more casual viewing.
I'd expect that as JRVR continue to develop and add features fairly rapidly as it is in the early stages of life. madVR on the other hand is what it is and we may not see much development officially released (though there is the endless testing thread). So to me it is a simple choice, if there is a particular feature that you need that is not in JRVR, then the madVR option is the one to use. I don't expect JRiver will be removing the option anytime soon. I'm not sure how many people will need to use the RO STD (EVR) based profile going forward and suspect that JRVR will become the default in MC.
Another good thing with MC, is you can configure a JRVR profile without it making any changes in madVR or vice versa. So it is easy to test. I imagine that JRiver would like feedback from users like yourself on the good, bad, ugly etc of JRVR as it may help inform the current development cycle.
I live in Sydney so if you are ever in our neck of the woods, give me a bell.
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Well it certainly looks like you have nailed the dropped/repeated frames when bitstreaming on many PCs. If it isnt Wndows 11 that fixed the issues then what is it!!!
I too hate frame drops/repeats so had been in the habit of always decoding and using VideoClock since its inception (and prior to that reclock). I've only started bitstreaming on the 7.2.4 setup to get Atmos/DTS:X etc, so I don't know if the others would have been fine or not prior to the testing over the last few days. All I can confirm is that I had to manually tune the 7.2.4 setup to get drops/repeats down to something acceptable prior to Win11, but now all systems seems to be pretty good (well I'm guessing there will be 1 or 2 drops/repeats over a typical movie).
The good side effect, is that I used to sit in movie nights looking and waiting for the stutter. Now I actually don't even think about it and just watch the actual movie.... which is kind of nice!
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I'm not sure if it matters but what is your 7.2.4 setup?
GPU: 1080ti and are you on recent drivers?
CPU:
RAM:
AVR/Pre/Amp:
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I'm not sure if it matters but what is your 7.2.4 setup?
GPU: 1080ti and are you on recent drivers?
CPU:
RAM:
AVR/Pre/Amp:
I dont know if Im on recent drivers or not. Ive never updated that sort of stuff as everytime I hear someone on the doom forum do so they seem to break something else....
Take a look here my setup, scroll more to the end to see the current setup. The projector is wrong in the thread as I havent updated everything. Currently JVC NX9 but I have ordered the NZ9 but its a very long wait to get any since the factory has moved back to Japan.
https://www.blu-ray.com/community/gallery.php?member=RapalloAV
I dont mind if I had 2 dropped or repeated frames in a whole movie, but I cant live with them every 5 mins or so!
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Mate great setup! You are keeping NZ economy pumping all on your own.
I'd seriously suggest trying the latest driver. I found in my testing (all those years ago) that they made a big difference. I've got scribbled notes of that page I scanned with wild variations between them on frame drops/repeats - some were 15sec, others 5min, 15min etc. From memory the 5min drops was "fixed" and pushed out to 50min with a later driver.... again this was all years ago. Touch wood, but it may be that simple???
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Mate great setup! You are keeping NZ economy pumping all on your own.
I'd seriously suggest trying the latest driver. I found in my testing (all those years ago) that they made a big difference. I've got scribbled notes of that page I scanned with wild variations between them on frame drops/repeats - some were 15sec, others 5min, 15min etc. From memory the 5min drops was "fixed" and pushed out to 50min with a later driver.... again this was all years ago. Touch wood, but it may be that simple???
Ok I will do it! can you tell me how to do it please?
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On the HTPC, go to https://www.nvidia.com/Download/index.aspx and fill in the details for your card which I presume would be as follows
Product Type: GeForce
Product Series: GeForce 10 Series
Product: GeForce GTX 1080 Ti
Operating System: Windows 10 64-bit (? or are you 32-Bit Windows ?)
Download Type: Game Ready Driver (GRD)
Language: English (US)
It will download the latest driver and you just install it. When it asks you to "Agree and Continue" change the option above the button from "NVIDIA Graphics Driver and GeForce Experience" to "NVIDIA Graphics Driver". Click through the next screen (it will keep your settings). Reboot and test. If weird stuff happens then we can do a "clean" install next.
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On the HTPC, go to https://www.nvidia.com/Download/index.aspx and fill in the details for your card which I presume would be as follows
Product Type: GeForce
Product Series: GeForce 10 Series
Product: GeForce GTX 1080 Ti
Operating System: Windows 10 64-bit (? or are you 32-Bit Windows ?)
Download Type: Game Ready Driver (GRD)
Language: English (US)
It will download the latest driver and you just install it. When it asks if you to "Agree and Continue" change the option above the button from "NVIDIA Graphics Driver and GeForce Experience" to "NVIDIA Graphics Driver". Click through the next screen (it will keep your settings). Reboot and test. If weird stuff happens then we can do a "clean" install next.
Ok Ive asked my pc guy to update the drivers for me as Im too afraid to mess something up :(
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Fair enough!
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...and also get him to do all the latest Windows 10 updates!
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You guys have me curious. My HTPC is almost exclusively bitstreaming UHD/Atmos these days and I don't notice frame drops or repeats and wondering if I'm not sensitive to it or not having a problem. My rig is old and using a 1060 GPU. I'll run it for a while and check my stats.
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I just checked and after the first few seconds I had 0 dropped or repeated frames during a 30 min test.
Win 10 up to date.
Probably not the latest Nvidia drivers but fairly recent.
It has been a long time since I set it up but I can look up specific settings if it would help.
Could the difference be that I use a TV? HTPC-> HTP-1 (pre/pro)-> C1 (TV)
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Murray,
Give jmone's instructions a try. I'd bet on him over most PC guys.
On the HTPC, go to https://www.nvidia.com/Download/index.aspx and fill in the details for your card which I presume would be as follows
Product Type: GeForce
Product Series: GeForce 10 Series
Product: GeForce GTX 1080 Ti
Operating System: Windows 10 64-bit (? or are you 32-Bit Windows ?)
Download Type: Game Ready Driver (GRD)
Language: English (US)
It will download the latest driver and you just install it. When it asks you to "Agree and Continue" change the option above the button from "NVIDIA Graphics Driver and GeForce Experience" to "NVIDIA Graphics Driver". Click through the next screen (it will keep your settings). Reboot and test. If weird stuff happens then we can do a "clean" install next.
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Murray,
Give jmone's instructions a try. I'd bet on him over most PC guys.
We are just updating the 1080ti drivers now, they go back to about to 1 1/2 years ago. Plus Windows 10 is also being updated, will report back in an hour or so after testing. Lets hope and pray this fixes the dropped/repeated frames when bitstreaming :)
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...and also get him to do all the latest Windows 10 updates!
Ok we have updated the drivers and windows 10 and I've started to test.
The results are very different and better but some things are worse.
At the moment I'm up to 28 mins and it has only dropped 1 frame, no repeats. There were the usual many dropped frames right on startup eight, but we know that's normal.
The odd thing thats never happened before is the presentation glitches, they started off as 12 and after 28min they are now on 55, what is this and is this something we notice on the screen?
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One step forward, one back. Couple of things to check:
See if these are still set
- nvidia control panel --> manage 3D Settings --> Vertical Sync --> On
- nvidia control panel --> manage 3D Settings --> Power Management Mode --> Prefer Maximum Performance
In madVR's setup:
- rendering -> general settings, and uncheck 'enable automatic fullscreen exclusive mode'
- rendering -> windowed mode settings, and set 'how many video frames shall be presented in advance' to 1 or a maximum of 3
@Rec Head. Good to hear. I can't remember the date but at some point a nvidia driver release mostly fixed the 23.976 timing issue. I've tested now to JVC PJ, Sony OLED TV, LG OLED TV, and Philips LCD Monitor. All were acceptable (eg no frame drops / repeats in 30min).
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One step forward, one back. Couple of things to check:
See if these are stills set
- nvidia control panel --> manage 3D Settings --> Vertical Sync --> On
- nvidia control panel --> manage 3D Settings --> Power Management Mode --> Prefer Maximum Performance
In madVR's setup:
- rendering -> general settings, and uncheck 'enable automatic fullscreen exclusive mode'
- rendering -> windowed mode settings, and set 'how many video frames shall be presented in advance' to 1 or a maximum of 3
@Rec Head. Good to hear. I can't remember the date but at some point a nvidia driver release mostly fixed the 23.976 timing issue. I've tested now to JVC PJ, Sony OLED TV, LG OLED TV, and Philips LCD Monitor. All were acceptable (eg no frame drops / repeats in 30min).
ok the two settings on the card remained saved from yesterday
I only use window mode so exclusive was off.
Frames present in advance was on 8 so Im now testing with it on 2 and I will report back in 30 mins.
Things are looking up!
And again a very big thank you for all your time you have spent helping me, I really appreciate it :)
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Present 2 is no good, testing on 1 and its dropped 20 frames in 5mins and repeated 1. The renderer queue is jumping around also, its not good. Glitches have stopped which is good. I will try 3.
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Here are my madVR render settings for the JVC.
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ok 3 by itself was no good, just trying this one you sent.
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Its not great on 3 or the sliders changed to yours. Stuff is jumping round in the stats.
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OK - if your IT guy is still there, try the following:
- Do a "clean" install of the new Graphics Driver (it is in the "Custom" button when doing the upgrade). Reboot and test
- If that does still not work try DDU which will wipe all traces of the old driver so you can do a fresh install https://www.wagnardsoft.com/content/ddu-guide-tutorial
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FYI - any time you bring up that Top MC menu you WILL get drops/glitches. If you use the Video OSD (say arrow keys on the RC/Keyboard it should not cause issues).
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FYI - any time you bring up that Top MC menu you WILL get drops/glitches. If you use the Video OSD (say arrow keys on the RC/Keyboard it should not cause issues).
ok very good to know thank you.
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Other interactions, even wiggling the mouse around or doing something on a 2nd screen (if you have one attached) can also cause issues. For testing, just hit play and leave it.
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Other interactions, even wiggling the mouse around or doing something on a 2nd screen (if you have one attached) can also cause issues. For testing, just hit play and leave it.
Ok all that is very good to know, this round of tests I have present Q on 4 and things are looking more stable. Ive been running 10mins and only had 7 fropped frames at the start and nothing else so far. The frame drop stats are now up to one frame drop every 40mins so that is looking very nice, fingers crossed.
I have told my pc man to just wait before doing anything else. So far so good!
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Don't touch it now. Watch a movie. Well done both Murray and jmone.
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1 per 40min sounds about right.
This is also one of the reason I really like JRVR vs madVR. No more endless tweaking, black magic, 1,000 different suggestions on random settings no one really understands. JRVR "Just Works".
Jim's right..... at some point, if it is "good enough" leave it be and enjoy the movie. I'm soooo over pixel peeping with this stuff and I just want it to work.
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Well Ive had to start the film again.
I kept going back and thinking everything was amazing and only had 1 dropped frame after 1.5 hrs, but I realised that the frame of film had frozen, I had to restart the PC to free it all up. However the stats were saying only one dropped frame every 58mins, excellent so far!.....Maybe with all the changes the PC really needed a restart.
So another test has just now started and I will report back.
If we now have this finally nailed I will in start to watch some Atmos films bitstreaming....
Then when all is good I will test JRVR as that was the only reason I bought 29 for.
Fingers crossed the PC doesnt freeze again, it never does unless lots of changes are being made... Do you also notice that?
And thank you also Jim.
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Yeah, when in doubt reboot... esp after changes to drivers etc (should not need it when just playing with settings inside madVR).
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Yeah, when in doubt reboot... esp after changes to drivers etc (should not need it when just playing with settings inside madVR).
Ok Ive done exactly one hour and only had 1 frame drop so far, this is "Out of this World" !!!!!!!!
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I cant believe it, 1hr 20mins and still only 1 dropped frame OMG!
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Sounds good! How the ATMOS?
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Yeah, when in doubt reboot... esp after changes to drivers etc (should not need it when just playing with settings inside madVR).
jmone this is looking like finally a very good outcome, wow!
I played all of the new Death on the Nile 2hr 7mins. 1080p upscaled with madvr to 4K.
I started the film at 1.51pm.
At start 8 dropped frames, all normal there.
At 35 mins 1 dropped frame up until 3.30pm then I had the second dropped frame.
So I got 1hr and 10mins before a second dropped frame.
This means I played an 2hr 7min film with just 2 dropped frames!
This is unheard of here!!!!
I just cant believe what Im seeing OMG!
Im now testing the same film UHD 4K version and see what results are. Will report back....
I suppose I dont need my IT guy to do this for me now do I?
OK - if your IT guy is still there, try the following:
- Do a "clean" install of the new Graphics Driver (it is in the "Custom" button when doing the upgrade). Reboot and test
- If that does still not work try DDU which will wipe all traces of the old driver so you can do a fresh install https://www.wagnardsoft.com/content/ddu-guide-tutorial
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Nope - sounds like you are all set.
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Nope - sounds like you are all set.
I think Ive just had a very early Christmas and thanks to you for hanging in with me on all this, you never gave up and thats amazing!
So will the timings be good on all other content, 24, 50, 60 etc etc?
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No probs - it's all comes around and the community here is great.
I'm not sure, as we only use the theatre for movie nights ... and most movies are 23.976fps (I've a couple of Euro 24fps releases). I've heaps of 50fps material and never noticed any issue but then again they tend to be much short in duration. I'll run up Gemini Man (UHD @ 59.94) and see how that one goes.
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No probs - it's all comes around and the community here is great.
I'm not sure, as we only use the theatre for movie nights ... and most movies are 23.976fps (I've a couple of Euro 24fps releases). I've heaps of 50fps material and never noticed any issue but then again they tend to be much short in duration. I'll run up Gemini Man (UHD @ 59.94) and see how that one goes.
Ive never been able to run Gemini Man 4K without it dropping frames like crazy, I wonder now if it might be ok...
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No issues with JRVR (as it is more efficient), but on madVR I had to setup a profile for such high frame rate material, as the 1660Ti could not handle it either. I can post some screen shots that show the key differences.
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Ive never been able to run Gemini Man 4K without it dropping frames like crazy, I wonder now if it might be ok...
Do me a favour? For fun, change to JRVR and see if you can play Gemini Man UHD.
.... under madVR, all I needed to do was create a profile as follows for such content to play well (but this is on my 1660Ti and your 1080Ti will/may have a different performance threshold). TIJ created a post about madvr profiles - https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=124136.0
edit - I may be offline for a bit..... I was explaining in another post how to use the "Rename / Move" tool in MC and managed to stuff up my library! Time to unstuff it :(
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ok everything is running fine but Ive come across one issue. I have used JR for many many years to run a small film club here at home, we screen once a week. I make up playlists on JR, maybe three or four trailers and some logos Ive made up all mkv and all screen in order on the playlist before the feature. They work seemlessly and are fantastic for running a professional show just as we once did by joining up 35mm shorts/trailers in the cinema. The playlist section on JR is great for this.
Ive just been testing one of my playlists I used a week ago and all has run through on the trailers fine being DD, but one of my made logos is PCM, when it reached this mkv file it stuttered, frames dropped and repeated and then froze. I stopped it and restarted it to run a second time, when the playlist reached the PCM MKV the same thing again. This has never happened when I use JR LPCM, it looks like bitstreaming it doesnt like any PCM material in the playlist, do you think this is right or not?
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Do me a favour? For fun, change to JRVR and see if you can play Gemini Man UHD.
.... under madVR, all I needed to do was create a profile as follows for such content to play well (but this is on my 1660Ti and your 1080Ti will/may have a different performance threshold). TIJ created a post about madvr profiles - https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=124136.0
edit - I may be offline for a bit..... I was explaining in another post how to use the "Rename / Move" tool in MC and managed to stuff up my library! Time to unstuff it :(
I cant do this to test as yet, although I have bought 29 we still havent installed it, but now we will since this stuff seems to be fixed. I just tested it again and it wont play but might try your profile. But first I need to sort this pcm file when bitstreaming problem ?
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PCM should be fine. Can you post a link to the file somewhere?
EDIT: PCM is never bit streamed anyway (regardless of the setting in MC). To test, change back to decoding and try the file again to see if the issue is still there.
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If you mostly bitstream now, I would recommend to turn off VideoClock, as it doesnt work with bitstreaming anyway, and you won't get any surprises if a PCM file is played in between, just to rule out additional factors.
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If it's a playlist of various individual files (assumption) why would VideoClock matter as wouldn't each file would get it's own filter graph?
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PCM should be fine. Can you post a link to the file somewhere?
EDIT: PCM is never bit streamed anyway (regardless of the setting in MC). To test, change back to decoding and try the file again to see if the issue is still there.
I've restarted the PC again and the PCM file seems to play ok now. I have just turned off video clock as I really think I will just stay with bitstreaming from now on.
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If you mostly bitstream now, I would recommend to turn off VideoClock, as it doesnt work with bitstreaming anyway, and you won't get any surprises if a PCM file is played in between, just to rule out additional factors.
Thanks for that Ive turned it off.
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With the update of the card and windows today I noticed the image was alot blacker, gamma or something was off. Looks like the card must have reverted to some default settings, there was no tick in the box on the adjust desktop color settings, I ticked the box and then 16/235 came back. I take it that this box must be ticked to turn everything off, correct?
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I've no idea on that.
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I cant do this to test as yet, although I have bought 29 we still havent installed it, but now we will since this stuff seems to be fixed.
Why are you posting on the MC29 board?
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Why are you posting on the MC29 board?
Good question, I thought I was on 29!
I bought 29 sometime ago just for JRVR and asked my It guy to install it, I only learnt yesterday when he was updating my drivers and Windows that he hadn't ?
Im hoping he will update me today as Im eager to start testing JRVR.
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Leave MC28 in place. Install MC29. It will find your library and leave your MC28 settings as they are so you can always go backward. You don't need an IT person to install it.
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Leave MC28 in place. Install MC29. It will find your library and leave your MC28 settings as they are so you can always go backward. You don't need an IT person to install it.
Thank you so much for that info Jim.
I seem to be back with troubles though again today. Ive been testing again this morning and the same film that only had two dropped frames after 2 hours yesterday has today dropped 1500 frames in less than 1 hour, Im just about ready to cry :(
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Before you do, please install MC29. The JRVR changes alone are worth the trouble.
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Before you do, please install MC29. The JRVR changes alone are worth the trouble.
Jim my email says to do a backup first of 28 is that important?
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File > Backup > Library Manager > Backup
Always a good idea.
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Thank you so much for that info Jim.
I seem to be back with troubles though again today. Ive been testing again this morning and the same film that only had two dropped frames after 2 hours yesterday has today dropped 1500 frames in less than 1 hour, Im just about ready to cry :(
That is odd. Reboot, play the video again and post a screen shot of the stats.
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That is odd. Reboot, play the video again and post a screen shot of the stats.
Ok Im on 9 now but new problems after the changeover. When I try to bitstream I get a terrible screeching noise, Ive restarted JR a few times but it just wont bitstream correctly. I cant do anymore for a few hours as I have friends arriving for lunch very soon. Ive turned everything off and will test after they leave.
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Im back testing and still cant get audio on MC9 with bitstreaming, just a loud clatter screach. It was perfect on MC28. I think it has something to do with DSP as sometimes a message come up for thta, however i never use that on my McIntosh pre pro. What can I try please?....
10mins later finally fixed it, wasapi was off, infact many things ever came across from MC28 to MC29, lots of "my" old settings were not saved, still sorting some stuff out. My setup isnt conventional, I have Event Ghost plus the madvr with the UHD patch, and a fairly complex operating system on the ipad for controling everything in the cinema. Lots of things have changed, scaling, desktop going to sleep etc etc... its taking time to sort out. Im almost there and need to start testing that the droped frames are still ok, when everything is 100% working again its time to start trying JRVR.
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Keep plugging away and let us know how it all goes.
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Keep plugging away and let us know how it all goes.
Thanks for that Im doing so and sorting the last bits.
How do you get rid of the blue volumew bar that pops upo at the bottom of the screen between each mkv file in a playlist?
Also the menu is going to sleep if Im not playing anything, I want it to remain on?
I thinks thats the last stuff Im trying to sort....
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Ahhhhh, someone else would need to chip in as I don't know about these two items (as In I've not noticed them to be able to comment).
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Couple of hints when having both MC28 and MC29 on installed at the same time:
- Tools--> Options--> Startup--> Windows Startup--> Run on Windows Startup--> At least one should be "Nothing"
- Any changes you make to settings or importing media will only impact that instance of MC, so keep a track of which one you are playing with.
Once you are OK with MC29, I'd uninstall MC28 but check the option to leave the library behind so you have a copy of the old MC28 data just in case.
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Couple of hints when having both MC28 and MC29 on installed at the same time:
- Tools--> Options--> Startup--> Windows Startup--> Run on Windows Startup--> At least one should be "Nothing"
- Any changes you make to settings or importing media will only impact that instance of MC, so keep a track of which one you are playing with.
Once you are OK with MC29, I'd uninstall MC28 but check the option to leave the library behind so you have a copy of the old MC28 data just in case.
I had to get my IT guy involved in the end as the whole story with my unconventional setup became just too much. We arent even touching 28 anymore, everything has been setup now for just 29.
All seems to have been resolved but Im still having problems playing a PCM file in a playlist, it jumps and stutters all over the place, they always used to work using JR without bitstreaming. Something isnt right, this also was happening on 28 yesterday. What might be wrong here. I have video clock turned off but Ill turn it back on and try again. :(
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Ok I seem to have resolved the stuttering on the PCM files when bitstreaming :)
I think everything is fine now, fingers crossed ;)
Can you tell me if anything needs to be ticked on this page please for madvr and bitstreaming, I cant remember what this page used to be like?
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- Turn on "Hardware accelerate video decoding when possible" (so it uses the 1080ti not the CPU.... else you will get massive frame drops on some content)
- Config up madVR to what you had
- If you have BD Folder Rips (or play BD) and what the option of using the BD Menus, then change "Play Blu-ray discs using Menus" to either ON or Ask (I use ask)
- Change Blu-ray region to: Region B
- Change "Default Subtitle Language" and "Default Audio Language" to English
- Turn Display Settings automatic change mode: On
- Wait after change (use if display changes slowly): 3 Sec (play with what works, it is to prevent MC Complaining that it can't start the audio connection as it is dropped by the JVC/AVR when the frame rate change is starting).
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Ok I will sort that page and tidy it up. Im just running a film at the moment to check the drops so I need to wait at least another hour before I make the changes.
I dont use any BDs only ripped mkvs and I use Tiny Media Manager then JR loads the rips and folders made in Tiny when it starts up.
I dont use any menus, just the feature in the folder, so I probably should keep this on OFF, correct? I will change region to B for us but that probably doesnt matter either for me.
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Yup - no need for half the settings as you don't play Blu-rays.
The key one is turning on HW Acceleration.
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Yup - no need for half the settings is you don't play Blu-rays.
The key one is turning on HW Acceleration.
Ok looks like things are going pretty good even though I dont have hardware acceleration turned on just yet, when i do it might even be better.
Done 1hr 40min so far on this film and still only had 2 frames drop, the results look good!
I will setup HW acceleration when the film finishes then run again and see if it remains the same or is better.
I dont want to move off madvr just yet..... ;)
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Traitor! ;D
I don't expect turning on HW Accel will make any difference to the 2 frame drops.... it moves the Video Decoding from the CPU to the GPU (and depending on what CPU you have you now may be able to play a wider range of media without those massive frame drops).
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Traitor! ;D
I don't expect turning on HW Accel will make any difference to the 2 frame drops.... it moves the Video Decoding from the CPU to the GPU (and depending on what CPU you have you now may be able to play a wider range of media without those massive frame drops).
Ok that 2hr 7min film went through perfect, just 2 frame drops only.
Just turned HW on and subtitles fixed going to do another run through now but will probably fall asleep.
looking forward to JRVR testing maybe tomorrow :)
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Sounds good!
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When you are bitstreaming does it turn off JR DSP?
Some of my mkv files have wav audio, when they come up are they playing through bitstream or does JR then jump back to LPCM?
How can we visually see if JR is bitstreaming or jumping back to LPCM for certain files, I cant tell on my McIntosh MX160?
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When Bitstreaming, the audio is sent directly out.... so no DSP. Keep in mind that only some formats are bitstreamable (see the list in Tools --> Options --> Audio --> Settings --> Bistreaming --> Custom). The others (like PCM) will still be decoded and use any DSP settings that you have.
The easiest way to "see" if you are bitstreaming or not when media is playing (and without interuption) is use the Up / Down Arrow keys to scroll through the OSD and when you are on Audio it will either say Bitstreaming or show what the Vol level is set at.
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Thank you for that, I seem to have everything working nicely on the new setup MC29 now. Dropped frames are a none issue now on 23.97 mkvs, however I havent tested 24fps material or DVDs etc etc...
Pretty soon Im ready to start on JRVR testing but havent even opened it in JR to take a look. Is there a tutorial for using the very highest settings in JRVR, I want to use the best as my madvr is handling NGU highest settings with ease....
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Sounds good!
On JRVR Settings: There are 2 parts to think about in your setup
Performance Setting are under the "Scaling" and "Advanced Tabs" to which I've attached a screen shot of the "Highest". The key on here is the Scaling. You get Sigmodial Light, SuperRes, and and for advanced scaling FSRCNNX in both 8 and 16 options. I can run FSRCNNX16 on all but high frame rate stuff like BillyLynn on my 1660Ti and no issues at all on the 3090. You may need to see how you go on the 1080Ti.
Output contains all the config items related to HDR Passthrough or Tonemapping (and if tonemapping what curves to use, brightness, etc etc) and you will need to set this to suit your HW. The only feature in here I make sure is Unchecked is "Dynamic Peak Detection" as per the note it "can result in shifting brightness").
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ok thanks for that I might give it a go tomorrow. And how do you bring up the stats for dropped frames etc etc on the screen?
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Same as madVR,
Ctrl+J to turn on/off
Ctrl+R to reset
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Same as madVR,
Ctrl+J to turn on/off
Ctrl+R to reset
Gee it all sounds real easy after madvr :)
I hope it plays everything nicely and the qaulity is there on our large 145" screen.
Is it the same HDR to SDR tonemapping that madvr uses?
The other thing I need to know, will the subtitles work the same as in madvr, I can resizes them and raise and lower them if need be? I play alot of foreign films and the subs work great on madvr.
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Subtitling is handled by MC so I presume it will be the same regardless of what renderer is used (but I did see that Hendrik made some improvments to Subtitle Handling as part of the JRVR development recently in both quality and positional flexibility). The rest you are going to have to have a look at! Have fun :)