INTERACT FORUM
More => Old Versions => Media Center 12 (Development Ended) => Topic started by: lalittle on July 05, 2006, 03:59:23 am
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I may just be missing something, I can't get the new "tag info" AW screen to show all the fields I want. In the MC12 tag info screen, only certain fields are shown, and if a field is blank, it does not appear at all. This makes editing tags in the AW (which is where I prefer to edit tags) much more difficult for me.
In 11.1, on the other hand, I can set tag info screen to show ALL the fields I want, INCLUDING the fields that are empty. This makes it MUCH easier to quickly check the value of a field and see if a tag is blank since it's much easier to look for a blank field than it is to figure out if a field is "missing" completely (which requires scanning up and down the list and deciding that the field is not there at all.) I appologize if I simply missed this setting someplace -- please let me know if this is the case.
I see that there is a "tag dump," which is useful for some things, but I want to be able to edit many of the tags that are only seem to appear in the dump (like the date.) Since 1) the "dump" is not editable, and 2) many of the fields are not on the tag info screen, tag editing is much less user friendly than it is in MC11. Once again, please let me know if I'm simply missing some settings someplace.
Ideally, I'll like to be able to 1) see ALL of the fields that are important to me in one window (scrolling if needed), 2) be able to EDIT these fields directly in the AW, and 3) see a blank field for a field that is empty rather than just not seeing this field at all.
MC12's approach to tag editing in the AW is much more limited than MC11.1 -- i.e. MC11.1 offers more customizable options and therefore more power in this regard.
Thanks,
Larry
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Agreed with the above observations.
I think this is one area that is getting a lot of attention currently, let's see what the following week will bring.
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Tag Window Stuff:
- If I click to edit [people], place a tick in a couple of boxes, then use the <back> button in the top right corner of the AW to go back, the tag changes are discarded
- While clicking around trying to work out what's going on, I've added quite a few empty fields that only show up when the media type is image. I don't want them there. How do I now remove them?
- Comparing the tags that MC makes available, it would appear that MC is trying to be 'media specific' regarding the available tags it offers up. Am I correct in thinking that all custom fields will show up for all media types, or is the category choice now more important?
- It's quite cramped in there, don't you think? Could it perhaps expand upwards if there's space available?
- The 'Image' view does nothing but show the image. there's a 'clicky-hand' but it doesn't do anything. There are no image related tools/commands available.
- when dealing with list type fields, wasted space and ugliness spring to mind, especially when hovered over...
(http://www.theganghut.co.uk/pics/ia/12/uglyinfo.jpg)
I don't think the way the tag title and the tag contents are joined by an underline on mouse over looks right somehow.
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In v.11.1, I used the tag info window quite extensively. It was good to be that close to the coalface, so to speak. I kind of get the feeling here that MC12 wants to place a protective layer between me and the coalface. This might turn out to be a good thing, but right now, I'm not so sure, and I'm hoping there will still be a way to get up-close to the database fields should we feel the need.
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Thanks Marko.
The goal is to provide a tag window that's less hidden and more flexible. A few of the advantages from our eyes:
1) list-type fields have a nice interface (instead of requiring typing in a combobox)
2) lyrics, notes, and other long fields have a more integrated editor (no popup)
3) tagging is top-level in the Action Window instead of being nested
4) more space is available for in-place editing (uses full width of window)
5) some basic information can be pooled intsead of giving every field its own line
6) fields shown / available are better filtered per media type
We'll continue to refine the tag window in the coming builds.
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AFAICT the new tag (formerly known as "tag info") no onger displays lyrics. Also it seems to limit the universe of tag fields to those currently in use. Okay, that takes away a potential funtionality, adding a new tag field and populating it through the tag place. I think you've got plenty of room there and it's a great place to introduce a new tag and edit it.
Also, although it limits tags to those in use, it doesn't order them by media type, as I'd hoped. So "replay gain", etc, will show when viewing an image tag, and custom image tags unused in audio are all there.
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Also, although it limits tags to those in use, it doesn't order them by media type, as I'd hoped. So "replay gain", etc, will show when viewing an image tag, and custom image tags unused in audio are all there.
Selective filtering of tags depending on the media has been a long time request.
A potential gotcha with filtering tho, is if you create any custom tags, you have to be careful to include them in the right media category otherwise they may not display at all.
Is this extra step welcome or adding more complexity ?
Otherwise how does MC know whether x is the right tag to display for media y ?
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6) fields shown / available are better filtered per media type
This is the only major thing in your list Matt that I'm "afraid" of. I want to decide what tags to use on what media types, not have someone else decide for me.
A big part of the draw for MC was that it unified how I could filter and view my media. That I could have a "people" tag for both images, audio, and video for example (or an artist, album, or place). You might not think of videos in "albums," but I do. I use the Place and Events tags extensively with video and audio (while many people might think of those only for images).
The other goals you listed seemed like great ideas (though I'm not sure what is inherantly wrong with the combobox control). I'd tend to lean towards what Marko suggested. Perhaps we should have the new tag editor system, but still have an "advanced" pop-up tag editor that allows you to view all of the possible tags.
It may have been a long time request, but I think you need to be very careful as to which tags get excluded. Yes, there's no reason to use replay gain for an image, but who's to say I don't want to assign it an intensity?
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This is the only major thing in your list Matt that I'm "afraid" of. I want to decide what tags to use on what media types, not have someone else decide for me.
A big part of the draw for MC was that it unified how I could filter and view my media. That I could have a "people" tag for both images, audio, and video for example (or an artist, album, or place). You might not think of videos in "albums," but I do. I use the Place and Events tags extensively with video and audio (while many people might think of those only for images).
I agree with Glynor in this issue.
About a couple of months ago I started to rip all my DVD concerts collection. Although the video clips that I'm getting are "technically" videos, and this is how Media Center treats them, the tagging part of them is almost the same as if they were actually "music"... they have "Artist", "Album", "Track Number". "Genre", etc.
I'm having issues with tagging those files in the Action Window since most of those tags (Artist, as an example) are not available for video files. I explained those issues in this this thread (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=34479.msg235219#msg235219)
Thank you.
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Read your video tagging thread with interest Deivit, went to have a look-see for myself as I have more than a few music videos here too, and you're right.
At first, I wondered if it might be some cloaked form of the "use visible columns" options that was available in the old tag info window, but it was not. MC is filtering the tags available under the 'add tag' button based on media type. Incidentally, the only view options I ever used in the old tag info window were 'show all' and 'show read only'
Now, if I select a music video that already has an [artist] tag, that tag still does not show in the new tag window. The only way I can edit the [artist] tag is to use either panes+tagging mode, or details view and an inline edit.
I'm thinking that the net result of this current trend will be to push me away from the AW altogether. I'll make tagging viewschemes, hide the tree and just get on with it from there. This might be fine, but then I will feel a real burning need for more options with regards to unhiding the tree, and, of course, the return of the bookmarking feature.
Having said all that, it must be remembered that the tag window is still being worked on, so we may yet be pleasantly surprised. only time will tell...
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Incidentally, the only view options I ever used in the old tag info window were 'show all' and 'show read only'
This is exactly how I used/use the tag info screen in MC10 and MC11 as well -- I just set it to show me ALL the tags, INCLUDING the ones that I wasn't using or that I couldn't change anyway (i.e. "read only.") In my opinion, this gave me the BEST system for editing tags since I could see EVERYTHING in one window (which grew vertically). I could easily see if a tag was blank since they were still there, I could minimize entire "categories" that I didn't use that often, and I could view and edit ANY tag in the AW. Also, the same tag was always in the same spot, so they were easy to find.
I really like the tag editing capabilities of the AW in MC11, and feel that while the changes in MC12 might make some sense on the surface, they currently feel like a step back from the layout of MC11. Oddly enough, I find MC11's tag info screen to actually be "cleaner" than MC12. I really miss things like the use of lines to seperate the fields, and the use of shades to denote editable vs. non-editable fields. MC12's layout may seem "less complex" at first glance, but it turns out that this makes it more difficult to actually use.
In my honest opinion, MC12 seems to be trying to fix something that wasn't broken, and in doing so, it seems like we're losing more than we're gaining. (Please note that I'm not trying to be "insulting" or "negative" with these comments -- I'm simply giving my honest reaction.)
The bottom line is that editing tags in MC11 is still simpler and easier than it is in MC12.
Thanks,
Larry
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In my honest opinion, MC12 seems to be trying to fix something that wasn't broken, and in doing so, it seems like we're losing more than we're gaining. (Please note that I'm not trying to be "insulting" or "negative" with these comments -- I'm simply giving my honest reaction.)
The bottom line is that editing tags in MC11 is still simpler and easier than it is in MC12.
That is exactly how I feel. As Marko pointed out though, it isn't done yet...
I would probably take some time to carefully evaluate these changes though in light of some of the usability concerns and ask: will our plan address this? If not, what do we do to address these issues? If you can't address them, then I'd re-evaluate changing the Tag Editing dialog, because usability is pretty essential to the application's success.
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That is exactly how I feel. As Marko pointed out though, it isn't done yet...
I would probably take some time to carefully evaluate these changes though in light of some of the usability concerns and ask: will our plan address this? If not, what do we do to address these issues? If you can't address them, then I'd re-evaluate changing the Tag Editing dialog, because usability is pretty essential to the application's success.
Although we've all been complaining about the new Tag window, I was just thinking that most of us are pretty nimble power users. It's possible that many people would like the Tag window as it is going along, so I'm thinking as long as there are some options to get "all" tags, it might be fine. Which by the way is also the way I typically used it.
So at the moment I'm voting with Glynor and taking a wait-and-see attitude.
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So at the moment I'm voting with Glynor and taking a wait-and-see attitude.
I'm confused by the idea of "waiting and seeing," which seems to imply that we should "hold our comments" on this particular subject. Isn't the whole point of this beta team to test the program, and isn't the idea to find bugs and comment on what we do and don't like about this version?
It seems to me that "waiting and seeing" potentially does a disservice to the program. Doesn't the developement team WANT to know what we think about the new layout, inlcuding the things that we don't necessarily like? In my experience, this is the whole point of a beta program such as this. I understand that the tag info window is in developement, but wouldn't this be the BEST time to make comments on the directions it's taking?
Although we've all been complaining about the new Tag window...
I think this is at the root of this issue -- i.e. the idea that these comments are "complaining." I feel that there is a big difference between "complaining" and "commenting" on something that you don't like. When somebody says "what's your honest opinion about this," it's not complaining to tell them if you don't like something about it. I understand that it's never fun to hear negative comments about something you've worked hard on creating, but we are the actual end users of this product, so our reactions -- including negative ones -- can be very valuable to the developers.
It's clear that we all love the program -- we wouldn't be here otherwise -- and like everyone else here, I'm very thankful that I was one of the people selected to be on the beta team. As long as people continue to be polite, I feel that we should continue to comment on anything that we think is important, and that we shoudln't feel that this is "complaining," but rather that it's simply being "honest" and perhaps helping the program to be a better product in the end. The developers are free to decide how they'll react to any given comment.
I was just thinking that most of us are pretty nimble power users.
I'm thinking as long as there are some options to get "all" tags, it might be fine.
Keep in mind, however, that it's the more powerful features of MC that set it apart from the competition. I don't use other programs because MC lets me do things that I couldn't do in other programs.
That said, I agree that keeping things "simple" for less powerful users is a very valid consideration. This, however, should not come at the expense of making the more powerful features more difficult to use. I'm simply saying that in MY use, the current layout makes tagging more difficult than it was in MC11, and I don't think this needs to be the case.
Thanks,
Larry
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I'm in support of what others have commented on AW, in the sense it keep the ability to show all tags. This is defnitely a very key area and its ease of use is of paramount importance.
I did not have probs with AW in previous versions, it was responsive and showed everything desired. Was under the impression that this version would be more cosmetic rather than subtracting anything.
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There needs to be 2 display options for the new tag info system.
1) displays any song that is highlited.
2) displays the current song playing and switches automatically to the next song playing.
It becomes diffficult to post ratings, moods, etc.. of the cuurent song when you have to hit the 'tag' option in the diaplay menu TWICE (once to close it, once to open it to the current song). Very annoying and difficult to tag a playlist of songs as you are listening to them.
All that needs to done is alink in the tag info window that says either current song, or highlited song. Please add this feature.
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Isn't the whole point of this beta team to test the program, and isn't the idea to find bugs and comment on what we do and don't like about this version?
Yes, you're correct.
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Perhaps the answer is to be able to toggle between a "simple" and an "advanced" tag info window. This way, one could set MC to their particular liking and just leave it that way. Advanced users would likely leave it on the "Advanced" setting, which would give them the same access and power as before without having to go through any extra steps. Casual users, on the other hand, could leave it set to the "simple" interface, which would keep the complexity and the percieved "clutter" down to a minimum.
Just a thought.
Larry
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I'm confused by the idea of "waiting and seeing," which seems to imply that we should "hold our comments" on this particular subject. Isn't the whole point of this beta team...
I completely agree with Larry on this entire post. In fact, I did before (that's why I posted my second paragraph). My entire point was that while I agreed that there were serious issues with the current direction of the Tag Action Window, it was time now to figure out a way forward and to evaluate these issues before continuing (because it's Not Done YetTM). That's so that a) the problems get solved and b) the programmers don't waste time developing it without a plan that will correct the problems (leading to the possibility of extra work in the long run).
I just think that a large enough contingent of us are concerned about these changes that a "stop, think" is in order. That was my point.
Oh, and the Advanced toggling? That, or the separate "edit all tags" dialog would suffice to solve our concerns I suspect.
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I haven't had much time yet to really dig into the Tag AW, but from what little I've done with it so far, here are my observations (sorry if I repeat some)
- I like the clean look
- I think that, if my interpretation of where it's headed is correct, then once the kinks are worked out, it should work ok
- I too, think we need some level of control over what fields appear for what media types - I love the idea of being able to filter out tag values that make no sense to me for various media types - but there are obviously some that I and others have made use for - HOWEVER - Is that more a function of the tag values making sense to us, or our need (in the past) to find someway to cram our media into the pre-defined fields? For instance I wouldn't have originally thought of a TV Show in terms of Artist/Album/Track #, but more in terms of Series/Season/Episode, but considering how crowded MCs tagging was with tags already, I crammed all of my videos into the Artist/Album/Track # mold. Now, if I can tell MC to NOT show me Artist/Album/Track # for video files, but to show me Series/Season/Episode, then that would be a huge benefit. On the same note, though... some videos WILL have an Artist (music videos for instance). And I think when viewing the Tags for these video files, then Artist should show up. So some kind of "Only show these fields by default - but always show fields that have data in them" kind of scheme would be preferable. And then give us the ability in Library Options to select which fields belong to which media types by default. In either case, we should be able to add data to any tag in any media type whenever we want. MC's filtering shouldn't completely eliminate this ability. What would be nice is if the list of available tags would show the default values, then at the bottom of the list, add the "Advanced" menu option that cascades off the list of all of the other fields. So we could add any tag we wanted, but at the top level, only the default fields are presented.
(http://www.dooftoo.com/Interact/Screenshots/AWTag.png)
- On a slightly related note - I really miss Library Options's ability to quickly show us only the user fields. Any chance you could add a seperate User Fields list so we can quickly access and edit the user fields - while still including user fields in the main list? Like this?
(http://www.dooftoo.com/Interact/Screenshots/UserFieldsOptions.png)
- And I also think that the AW can sometimes be a very cramped area to try and get some tagging done. I pretty much do all of my tagging in the Panes. If the AW is ever going to be the place to do your tag editing, then it's going to need to be able to grow, both horizontally AND vertically.
- And it would be really nice to get back to view that displays all tags, regardless if they're empty or filtered based on their media type. I love displaying my tags the way that MC12 is displaying them now, and for quick edits, it works well, but for some serious tagging chores, a much larger, fully populated interface would be greatly appreciated.
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big problem for me atm is that when working with image files, viewed as thumbnails, there's no quick way for me to determine the filename or filepath.
Also, I find the editable [filename (...)] field entries in v11.1's tag info window invaluable at times. This is the kind of 'closeness' to the files that I was referring to above, and I do hope we are not going to lose it.
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I just tried build 33, and I still have some issues with the new system.
1) MC11 was able to show me "categories" of tags, one of which -- the top one -- was "Visible Columns." This was a FANTASTIC feature since it showed whatever tags I had selected for the current view IN THE ORDER than they were in the current view. This meant that when I selected one of my "iPod" views for any given iPod user, their unique "iPod" tag was the very TOP field in the AW tag info screen. Each user's view would show THEIR personal "iPod" tag at the top of the tag info screen, which made editing this tag for large groups of files VERY easy. There was no confusion over which tag to edit since whoever's view was selected, their corresponding personal tag was at the top of the tag info screen.
There are a few problems in this regard with MC12. The tag screen no longer has the "visible columns" category, which means that the window will always shows me the SAME set of tags regardless of the view selected. This means that "John," for example, will no longer see "John iPod" at the top of the list when he has his iPod view selected, and "Mary" will no longer see "Mary iPod" at the top of the tag screen when she has HER iPod view selected.
Since the "iPod" tags cannot be moved to the top of the list, it's always necessary to "search" for these fields in the list, and each user will have to be sure to find and select their personal tag from the list. This is much more difficult that it was in MC11.
2) Another comment on the "categories" in MC11's tag info screen: They allowed me to mininize my "less used" groups of tags. This meant that an entire group would only take up a single line, but that I could still quickly expand it if I needed to access these tags. In MC12, you only have a single, long list of tags, all of which show in the same order for every view.
3) The method of selecting which tags you want to see in MC12 is cumbersome. If I want to select 15 tags to display, I have to hit the "tags" button 15 seperate times, and navigate to each tag individually, which includes opening the "more" tags group several times. It would be MUCH easier if I could open a list, select all the tags I wanted to see, then close the list. There are just too many tags to use the "one at a time" approach to selecting them.
4) No seperator lines, no "read only" tags with different shading, and a more "crowded" feel.
The bottom line is that for my personal use, MC12 is offering no advantages to the tag screen compared to MC11, yet it has several DISadvantages compared to MC11. I REALLY miss things like the ability to have the tag info screen change depending on the view (see "1" above), which is the type of feature that made previous versions of MC really stand out against the competition. If the new approach is going to work, I think it needs to bring back some of the features and capabilities that made MC11's tag screen work so well (and it DID work really well.) Perhaps some more "configuration" options that would allow us to set it up as we desire.
I feel that the tag info screen has become as much of (if not MORE so) a "personal" item as other aspects of the interface. After all, the tag info screen is where many of us actually do the "work" in MC. Therefore, maybe the answer is a way of personalizing the tag info screen in a similar manner to the way we can personalize the view schemes. Maybe the tag info screen should have a configuration category in the "Options" menu, where we could 1) select the various options we need, 2) select which tags we do or don't want to see, 3) select the order that the tags display with 4) some way of linking this to the individual view schemes. This sort of configuration power is what we've come to love about MC.
Thanks for reading,
Larry
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For major tagging work, I'd agree that the window would not be good to work in.
For 'on-the-fly' changes it is quite workable.
I'd rather see a different term than "Format" though.
Format always scares me.
Plus, when you click it, the window then says "Tag Dump".
Maybe go back to "File Info" or show different text accoring to the file type, like MP3 Details, APE Details, etc.
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So is MC not hiding empty fields anymore? Is that coming back in some form? Even a checkbox to "Hide Empty Fields"?
For the display of tags, I like it as uncluttered as possible. Earlier builds of MC12 did that perfectly. When it comes down to actually doing some serious tagging jobs, though, being able to display all or a subset of the tags (even if they're empty) is beneficial.
Maybe a few "Views" are in order...
[] Fields in current View
[] Media Specific fields
[] All Fields
[] Specific Fields
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[] Hide empty fields <- and this option would be hidden for the "All Fields" view?
Something like that?
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Maybe a few "Views" are in order...
[] Fields in current View
[] Media Specific fields
[] All Fields
[] Specific Fields
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[] Hide empty fields <- and this option would be hidden for the "All Fields" view?
Something like that?
This is the kind of thing I'm hoping for, but I wouldn't want to have to choose only "one" of the options you've given. I'd like the "Fields in current view" to show up at the top of the list, and then ALL the fields to show up below it. I really don't mind if some of the fields are "repeated" in the AW -- this never bothered me in MC10 or MC11, where the "Visible Columns" category was selectable for display at the top of the list. This way, all my "most used" tags would be in a group at the top of the list, making them very easy to find quickly.
Column View (MC11) vs. Column-less view (MC12).
On a related note, how do people feel about the new "column-less" view in MC12? I personally like the "columns" view from MC11 better. When you look at a longer list of items, I find that it's much easier if the information is arranged in columns, where all the "values" are left justified against the same margin. In MC12, the values butt up against the field names, which in my opinion makes looking through a long list much more difficult since as you scan down the list, you have to scan back and forth repeatedly to read the items. With MC11's "column" type view, it's a lot easier to quickly scan down the list.
Larry
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The latest build is certainly getting there.
I am with Larry 100% regarding the column/no columns comments.
Those square boxes seen in list type fields have gotta go.
In all of this, I still wonder what relevance a fields given category has for us now. Is this something that MC will only use internally now?
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Thanks for the input Marko. I'm confused about what you're asking here:
In all of this, I still wonder what relevance a fields given category has for us now. Is this something that MC will only use internally now?
I'm not clear if you're referring to the comments I made above about the "categories," or if you're talking about something else. Please let me know if any of my comments above need clarification.
Thanks,
Larry
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was just musing in general...
When setting up or editing a library field, we can specify which category it should be placed in, then, with previous versions, we would know where to find the given tag in the AW.
Perhaps I'm just not getting it, but as things stand atm, I don't see what difference choosing one category over another makes, and if the answer is none, it feels like a waste. I've so far got zero thoughts on how they should/could be used, those may come later once I've played around with it a bit more.
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The latest build is certainly getting there.
I am with Larry 100% regarding the column/no columns comments.
Those square boxes seen in list type fields have gotta go.
In all of this, I still wonder what relevance a fields given category has for us now. Is this something that MC will only use internally now?
Could you send me a library backup that has those boxes? I'm not sure what it is.
Thanks.
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Email sent.
There hard return boxes...
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I get the boxes, too.
(http://www.dooftoo.com/Interact/Screenshots/lyrics.png)
Anywhere there's a hard return in lyrics (which for a while made me wonder if it wasn't something funky my Lyrics Editor plugin was doing), but then I noticed them in the People field everywhere there would be a semicolon.
(http://www.dooftoo.com/Interact/Screenshots/people.png)
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Hi Matt,
I just sent you another email.
Try any AC/DC track...
M:\mp3 Library\Artist A-B\AC_DC\Back In Black\05-Let Me Put My Love Into You.mp3
Thanks,
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was just musing in general...
When setting up or editing a library field, we can specify which category it should be placed in, then, with previous versions, we would know where to find the given tag in the AW.
Perhaps I'm just not getting it, but as things stand atm, I don't see what difference choosing one category over another makes, and if the answer is none, it feels like a waste. I've so far got zero thoughts on how they should/could be used, those may come later once I've played around with it a bit more.
I get what you're saying now.
I'd like to see the return of the ability to display "categories" in the AW, which would bring back the ability to have the AW tag screen change depending on which view scheme is displayed (i.e. the "Visible Columns" category.) I don't think there is any problem with "repeating" tags in the AW since it can make the job of tagging easier.
The best scenario for everybody would be an MC12 AW tag screen that offered a great deal of customization, similar to the way the REST of the MC interface does. The AW is the "workhorse" section of the layout for a lot of people, so it follows that it should be highly configurable. This would allow people to set up the AW tag screen the way THEY liked it, and wouldn't force the compromise between "clean" and "powerful," which seems to be happening at the moment. Rather than trying to find a balance that will please everybody (which I don't think is possible), I feel that the Tag screen should just let the user decide what they like. This, to me, would reflect the "tradition" of MC, which has always been about giving users the power to set up MC to their own personal liking.
Thanks,
Larry
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Action window > tag > keywords > add new tag:
Up to this point, everything is happening in the action window. It draws the focus of your attention down into that small square in the bottom left corner of the program. Clicking on 'add new tag' pops a text entry box with a dropdown list right in the middle of the screen. I was fully expecting it to appear inside the action window, and for some reason, was irked when it didn't.
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Still seveal things that bug me about the new system. Overall I like it much better than before, great job.
1) In the action window - edit playing now list, if I right click on a specific song and click tag, the tag window pops up, BUT NOT FOR THAT SONG. Another reason why there needs to be fully functional playing now list on the left hand side.
2) If I click on the top display, for the current songs tags, I have to hit it TWICE, once to open, and once to close. THIS IS BAD.
3) Ratings are too easy to change, particularly when multpile songs are highlited and becomes very DANGEROUS , as the rating can be changed for all of them.
4) When clicking on add new tag, there needs to be a cancel button rather than just an 'ok'.
5) There should be a 'taging while playing mode' so that the tag screen is auto switches to the newest playing song.
6) Each line/field in the window should be fully hot linked and not just where there is text. This would make tagging that much swifter.
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Overall I like it much better than before, great job.
My feeling (as you might have guessed from my posts) is exactly the opposite. I feel that in putting so much emphasis in trying to "simplify" things and please everybody with one layout, the AW Tag screen has been greatly weakened. I realize that whether one "likes" it or not is subjective, but as I see it, the fact of the matter is simply that it used to have more power than it does now -- i.e. I am able to "do" a lot more with the tag info screen in MC11.1 than I can with MC12. If you didn't happen to use the features that were eliminated, then this won't matter to you. If, however, you were someone who DID use the added features of MC11.1 (like the categories and the abilty to alter the tag info view depending on the selected view scheme) and if you happen to find the previous "columns" easier to work with than the current view, than this version is a step down.
I'm still hoping that MC12 will offer us the abilty to customize the tag screen such that we can have access to some of the things that made MC11's tag info screen work so well for me.
Thanks again,
Larry
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I think I've also made my feelings fairly well known on this, but just to confirm....
What Larry said says it well.
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My needs are simple. For me, as it is right now in .036, it works.
I kind of miss the "Add Tag" part of it, though. It's kind of a pain to tell it to display a specific tag first, just to be able to fill that tag in. If they left it as is right now, but brought back the Add Tag part, I'd be happy.
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I'm still not fully sold on this new action window you know, but I'm warming to it...
I absolutely love this...
(http://www.theganghut.co.uk/pics/ia/12/bios.jpg)
It needs finishing though. As it is, it's pretty pointless because it's not there long enough to read any more than a line or two... If the mouse were moved over the popup, perhaps it could stay on view untill the moused is removed or clicked? Needs to be scrollable or bigger by default too.
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My feeling (as you might have guessed from my posts) is exactly the opposite. I feel that in putting so much emphasis in trying to "simplify" things and please everybody with one layout, the AW Tag screen has been greatly weakened. I realize that whether one "likes" it or not is subjective, but as I see it, the fact of the matter is simply that it used to have more power than it does now -- i.e. I am able to "do" a lot more with the tag info screen in MC11.1 than I can with MC12. If you didn't happen to use the features that were eliminated, then this won't matter to you. If, however, you were someone who DID use the added features of MC11.1 (like the categories and the abilty to alter the tag info view depending on the selected view scheme) and if you happen to find the previous "columns" easier to work with than the current view, than this version is a step down.
I'm still hoping that MC12 will offer us the abilty to customize the tag screen such that we can have access to some of the things that made MC11's tag info screen work so well for me.
Thanks again,
Larry
As a non-power user here, I agree with Larry and some of the others on this. I still feel more comfortable with 11.1's AW. As a matter of fact, last night I imported a dozen albums and found tagging in 12 confusing, it was hard to find certain fields and I ended up going back to 11.1 to do my tagging and then going back to 12 and used Otto to update the db. For me the workflow is smoother in 11.1.
Just an average (computer) user's opinion.
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I agree it's not quite as powerful. And I miss that.
I do sort of like the new window, but only as an addition to or an option to the more powerful direct-access way.
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Thanks for all the feedback and opinions on this. It's nice to see that there are othes who have similar feelings to mine on this issue, and I appreciate any discussion on this from others, whether they agree with my feelings or not.
I still feel that the answer to this is a more "configurable" Tag editing section of the AW that offers the ability to configure the Tag screen in a way the suits each user. It's "default" state could be as it is now in MC12, which would make it simpler and therefore more accessible for the new users, but for the people that require more power, the options would be there to customize it to one's specific needs, which would make everybody happy. I'd personally most likely set it up much like the MC11.1 Tag Info screen.
As I mentioned earlier, the Tag window is the "workhorse" section of MC for many people (like myself) so it follows that it deserves to have a high level of configurabilty, which has always been one of MC's strong points.
Larry
PS. I'm unusually busy and will continue to be over the next few weeks, so I may not be able to read and post to this forum as much as I'd like for a little while. I'll still try to offer feedback as much as I can, but if you don't see many posts from me, it's only temporary.
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Here is another fix that should be made to my list:
If there is no date for a song how are you supposed to tag it in the tag info screen? See, there is no link for it.
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Here is another fix that should be made to my list:
If there is no date for a song how are you supposed to tag it in the tag info screen? See, there is no link for it.
Good catch. Even the "show empty fields" option does not allow editing this field in the tag window.
Larry
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A couple SPECIFIC ideas for the Tag sceen:
It seems time that the Tag screen options, like the "Handheld" options or "Theater View" options, etc., should get it's own seperate page on the main Options page. This way, there could be an "Advanced" section where "power users" could access some of the features we're currently missing, while the "non power users" would only see the "basic" options in the main section.
Continuing with this idea, in the "Tag Window" section of the main "Options" page, there could be an "Advanced" section that is not visible unless you click it. In this section, there could be a list of ALL available tags, where we could:
1) Re-order the list (a "default button could return the list to alphabetical order)
2) Individually edit various DISPLAY options of the tags. Available options could be things like:
"Display if empty"
"Display ONLY if in current view scheme"
etc.
The window could be set up similarly to the current "View Scheme" creation/editing window.
This would allow configuration options for power users (in the "Advanced" section), WITHOUT cluttering up the actual tag window or making things more "complex looking" for those that don't need advanced options. The non "power users" would simply not go to the "Advanced" section of options.
Just an idea.
Thanks,
Larry
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This would allow configuration options for power users (in the "Advanced" section), WITHOUT cluttering up the actual tag window or making things more "complex looking" for those that don't need advanced options. The non "power users" would simply not go to the "Advanced" section of options.
As a non-power user, (but I'm a pretty good speller! ;D), I like this idea very much.
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The new system is missing a possibility to remove ratings as I already reported in one of the build threads. A "clear ratings" button or similar is needed.
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I'd like to see a button in the tagging window for adding new fields. I thought that this had already been done when reading other's posts about the "add tag" button, but actually "add tag" only creates a new value for an existing field.
I really like the simplicity of the new tagging window though. I generally use the same set of fields based on media type, and so it feels really intuitive to me to be able to limit the fields use see based on media type.
An advanced mode, showing the fields in groupings like MC11.1 wouldnt go amiss for power users though I suppose.
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1) Re-order the list (a "default button could return the list to alphabetical order)
This is the single most wanted feature of mine!
This way we can logically group similar fields. I have a lot of classical music fields and at the moment they appear all over the Tag Info screen. It would be nice to group them all together.
2) Individually edit various DISPLAY options of the tags. Available options could be things like:
"Display if empty"
"Display ONLY if in current view scheme"
etc.
You read my mind :) This seems like the best way to show only tags that are relevant to the media you're tagging.
Having similar tags for all audio or all video etc is a step in the right direction, but still falls apart when you're dealing with different forms of media within the same media type (eg Video may be TV shows, music videos, personal videos etc)
To choose which tags are available for individual vew schemes would leave me in tagging heaven...
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You can add my vote.
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I realize I may be starting to sound like a broken record on this issue, but this is VERY important to me since it directly effects my everyday MC workflow.
To choose which tags are available for individual vew schemes would leave me in tagging heaven...
Exactly. MC11 had a group called "Visible Fields" that showed up at the top of the list, and which ordered the tags in the same order that the view scheme used. This was a TERRIFIC feature and made tagging a LOT easier since it was customizable, and since it contained all of my "most used" tags right at the top of the list, and ONLY the tags that applied to the current media type since it only showed the tags in the currently selected view scheme. This was simply a REALLY great idea. The rest of the tags (some repeated, which was FINE) showed up below in other groups, which could be collapsed/expanded as desired (another nice feature.)
The MC11 Tag Info screen also showed read only tags as a different color (another nice feature) and showed grid lines. I also prefered the "column" layout, where all the values were left justified against the same margin, as were the field names. This made it MUCH easier to find the tag you were looking for.
I REALLY miss the MC11 tag info layout, and am still hoping that MC12 will bring back these features since they have a large, DIRECT effect on my workflow. I still feel like the changes made to this window gave up "usability" in order to try to make it "look" simpler, which ended up having the OPPOSITE effect for users like myself (i.e. it made it harder to view and use since everything looks mixed together.)
I also still feel that the extra features could be added to a page in the "Options" window where we could customize the Tag window EXACTLY as we want it while still offering the "simpler" window to the less advanced users.
Is this something that's still being worked on, or am I out of luck?
Larry
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The MC11 Tag Info screen also showed read only tags as a different color (another nice feature) and showed grid lines. I also prefered the "column" layout, where all the values were left justified against the same margin, as were the field names. This made it MUCH easier to find the tag you were looking for.
I REALLY miss the MC11 tag info layout, and am still hoping that MC12 will bring back these features since they have a large, DIRECT effect on my workflow. I still feel like the changes made to this window gave up "usability" in order to try to make it "look" simpler, which ended up having the OPPOSITE effect for users like myself (i.e. it made it harder to view and use since everything looks mixed together.)
I strongly agree with this. I think the meandering labels and data fields make it hard to pick things out.
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Found a couple more problems with the new tag editing that I don't recall seeing mentioned. I selected an entire CD's songs and some of them had dates and some didn't. I couldn't tell which field in the Tag window was the date field since I haven't memorized every location yet. I saw "varies" and took a chance that it was the date field and luckily guessed right. No label makes it difficult.
MC 11 let you be in a editing field and hit PgDn to go to the next song to edit. I haven't found a way to do that yet without grabbing the mouse, clicking on the next song, and then back again to the same editing field in the Tag window.
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Another issue I found is that some of the tags that were available with the MC11 Tag Info screen are no longer available in MC12. For example, there is no longer any "Image" (i.e. Album Art) field, so it's no longer to quickly look and see if a song has album are embedded in the file, or saved as a seperate file on the drive. If the album art IS stored seperately, there is no way of quickly telling WHERE it's stored. Just because the Options has a path defined doesn't mean that this was the path used when the file was ripped.
UPDATE: I found that if you use the AW to view the cover art, hovering over the image will show you where the cover art is. This, however, is a far cry from MC11's method of showing a field in the tag info window that says "Inside file" or shows a path.
Larry
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Does the MC design team still want suggestions and discussion in this regard? The Tag AW screen has been receiving only minor changes for a little while now, and I haven't seen any "official" response to the suggestions in this thread, so I'm not sure if these requests are just beating a dead horse at this point.
These issues are still VERY important to me since tagging is a main part of my MC usage. If MC12 continues it's approach to the AW Tag screen layout, I'll consider continuing to use MC11.1 for my tagging work. MC12 offers OTHER advantages, but it's AW Tag window has taken a big step backwards in my opinion. Given my specific needs and preferences, MC11.1 really is "that much" better than MC12 in this regard. I'm not trying to pick on MC12 -- I'm just pointing out that to ME, MC12 currently has too many limitations compared to MC11.1 when it comes to the AW Tag screen, which is one of my most used sections of MC.
If other people feel the way I do, please continue to post your opinions here.
Thanks,
Larry
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It would be helpful to hear from JR what they see as the top 4-6 things they are working on or want more feedback on.
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Some changes were made to the AW in the 90 release so it looks like they're still working on it. But I agree that it's the area where I am in most of the time when using MC and it needs to be as usable as 11 if not better.
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Does the MC design team still want suggestions and discussion in this regard? The Tag AW screen has been receiving only minor changes for a little while now, and I haven't seen any "official" response to the suggestions in this thread, so I'm not sure if these requests are just beating a dead horse at this point.
Again. Just to reiterate a third time, Larry and I are in complete agreement. On my machine that has MC12 installed, I am still using MC11.1 to do basically all of my tagging. It is still far to unweildy to use MC12 for it.
Powerful tagging and organization is the primary reason that I use MC. Everything else, while important, is secondary to this. I'm concerned because basically... Every single other new thing about MC12 I like (other than the fact that it is sometimes unstable, but it's beta so that's okay), but this change impacts my main use of the application negatively. What am I to do?
I too, would like to hear some response from the J River folks on this. Even a "too bad that's how were going to do it this time, folks" would be preferable to the current response (nothing at all). It seems to me that enough of us beta testers all have serious concerns about it that little tweaks here and there to the new tag window aren't going to cut it. What is the plan?
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Powerful tagging and organization is the primary reason that I use MC.
Same here, and having read through this thread, I agree with the sentiment that the AW tag system has lost power and usability in favour of looking simple.
The thing is, the AW tagger is a powerful tool, and the tags for a file can be extensive. V11.1 did a great job of giving access to tags in a logical, ordered manner, making it easy to ignore stuff you didn't need, while allowing you to access everything if you wanted. And it was easy to change this quickly on the fly.
I find v12's system of picking fields from the huge, uncategorized list really unwieldy and inelegant. To then have to go back to that in order to remove fields again just grates every time! Using v11.1, I find myself constantly hopping between tag info sections for all types of media - both as a tagging tool and as an information tool. V12's system just does not compare.
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I have started using MC 12 exclusively but had to go back to MC 11 yesterday to verify something because I was in the 11 forums and was going to answer a question. Wow, what a difference. I have to agree with most people that MC 11's tagging is so much easier. The only thing I like better in MC 12 is the little cover art in the tagging window but that could be accomplished easily enough with the MC 11 format by adding it to the top of the fields.
I applaud JRiver for trying to improve the program but in this case "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
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Thanks for all the discussion on this topic, which is an important one since it effects one of the core uses of the program for many of us. Since this thread has become rather long, I wanted to reiterate and add to something I said earlier, which I feel is an idea worth discussing further.
I feel that the tag info screen has become as much of (if not MORE so) a "personal" item as other aspects of the interface. After all, the tag info screen is where many of us actually do the "work" in MC. Therefore, maybe the answer is a way of personalizing the tag info screen in a similar manner to the way we can personalize the view schemes. Maybe the tag info screen should have a configuration category in the "Options" menu, where we could:
1) Select the various display options we prefer (such as use of columns, different color for read-only, etc.)
2) Select which tags we do or don't want to see.
3) Select the order that the tags display (with a "default" choice of "alphabetical.")
4) Offer the ability to "link" the tag screen to individual view schemes, so that bringing up any given view scheme could change the Tag window display. (MC11 accomplished this by offering a "Currently displayed" category in the Tag Info window, where all the items in the current View scheme would display at the TOP of the Tag Info window.)
This sort of configuration power is what we've come to love about MC.
Thanks again,
Larry
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To reiterate another potential solution that I think would make all of us very happy (and would avoid having to add yet another set of Options to the Options dialog -- never a popular choice)...
Keep the "Tag" Action Window exactly as it now is in MC12 (with any improvements you see fit of course but generally the same style as it is). However, add an "Advanced Tag Editor" button to it that brings up a separate, resizable dialog window (modeless please, so we can still interact with the rest of MC) that works exactly like MC11.1's Tag Editor Action Window. Make sure to have this window be able to "Always Stay On Top" and remember it's window size and position.
This one small change (which BTW, should let you simply re-use the code from MC11) would take the current situation from MC12 from being much worse than it was in MC11.1 to being much, much better than it was in 11.1. It alone would have been enough of a reason for me to upgrade to MC12. The benefits would be:
1. Those who want to use the clean, simple "new" AW for Tagging can do so. The rest of us get the benefit of a nice clean "info palatte" type display (which I do actually quite like for info purposes, even if I don't like to try to use it for tagging).
2. We (those who need it) can still access all of the quick, painless, and advanced tagging capabilities of MC11.1's system. However, we get the added bonus of being able to do so in a separate, resizable window that isn't confined to the small Action Window sized pane. (One of the reasons the new Tag window "feels" cleaner is that the style of the MC11.1 Tag Editor didn't "mesh" well with the restrictive sizing of the Action Window.)
3. You (JRiver) get the best of both worlds (happy users on both sides of the fence) with no additional options needed and with relatively little additional coding needed.
4. Those few multi-monitor freaks out there (like me) will love it. I could put the Advanced Tag Editor on one screen and the main MC interface on the other. Tagging heaven!
I should say.... Looking through the posts here, it is obvious that something needs to be done. Among even the "expanded" Beta crew, I'd guess that at least 50% of us (if not more like 70%) strongly feel that the new system is less workable than the old. That's not a good score from your power user core. And frankly, with Interact as the primary support mechanism, it is us who spend a lot of time educating and training new users. If you lose us, you lose a big battle...
Not saying that my idea is the only workable solution... Just saying that you need some solution, as this isn't seeming to cut it.
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What Lalittle and Glynor said in their last 2 post expresses better than anything I could say on this issue. I must admit that I still revert back to MC 11 to do most of my tagging at this point.
I think what glynor said about an advanced tagging mode would be excellent.
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add an "Advanced Tag Editor" button to it that brings up a separate, resizable dialog window (modeless please, so we can still interact with the rest of MC) that works exactly like MC11.1's Tag Editor Action Window. Make sure to have this window be able to "Always Stay On Top" and remember it's window size and position.
I think this would work best if it was a "toggle" and NOT a button that we'd have to press every time. It would get tiresome to have to contantly be hitting an "advanced" button since, in my use, I'd ALWAYS want it in "advanced mode." I'd much rather be able to PERMANENTLY set the AW Tag screen to "Advanced" mode.
That said, I'm not sure why it's "not popular" to add another set of options to the option dialogue -- I guess this is simply a subjective issue. Personally, I like having a single place where I can go to change all my options, and would find an "AW Tag Window" options page a welcome addition that would simply make sense. This would be the first place I'd look for such options if I wasn't familiar with the program. As I mentioned above, I think the AW Tag screen "deserves" it's own section on the "Options" page since it clearly is something that people WANT to configure as they desire. In my opinion, this is is precisely what the Options page is meant for, and it just makes sense to me to give it it's own Options set.
That said, anything that gave us the MC11 AW "Tag Info" features back again would be welcome.
Thanks again for all the feedback and discussion here,
Larry
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I think this would work best if it was a "toggle" and NOT a button that we'd have to press every time. It would get tiresome to have to contantly be hitting an "advanced" button since, in my use, I'd ALWAYS want it in "advanced mode." I'd much rather be able to PERMANENTLY set the AW Tag screen to "Advanced" mode.
The way I envision it, it would sort of be a toggle... Since it would open a separate, resizable dialog window (distinct from the current Tag Action window which could actually stay open at the same time), you could just leave it open and do all your tagging. What I mean by this is an actual separate window "floating above" the rest of MC's interface, similar to the "Add Folder" dialog, or the "Options" dialog. Close it only when you're done to make it go away.
It would take one extra click to get into it (select a file or files, click "Tag" to open the Action Window, then hit "Advanced" to open the Advanced Tag Dialog). I think that's a fair compromise though, as long as you could still interact with the rest of MC while the dialog was open. So, for example:
You select a file (or files) and open the Advanced Tag Editor. Keep it open. Do the tagging on those files. Still keep it open. Select some different files. Do your tagging. Select some more. Tag some more. Oh, I'm all done? Now, close the dialog.
So, it would take an extra click, but only one per Tag Editing "Session". That's not a huge deal...
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That said, I'm not sure why it's "not popular" to add another set of options to the option dialogue -- I guess this is simply a subjective issue. Personally, I like having a single place where I can go to change all my options... [snip]
To clarify.... When I said "not popular", I meant not popular with JRiver (on the contrary, adding options is a quite popular request from us users). ;) I can understand where they are coming from. Every time you add an option to the Options dialog it increases the complexity of that dialog, and makes it harder (a little at a time) to find the options that you want. Frankly, I think it's amazing that MC does offer the breadth of options that it does, without becoming impossible to use (and a testament to their careful design).
In programmer's parlance, it's known as feeping creaturism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeping_creaturism). IE: The tendancy to add options that let you do/use "everything including the kitchen sink" which eventually (at some very difficult to determine point) makes the application impossible to use... Take a look at the set of options for FFDSHOW (http://sourceforge.net/dbimage.php?id=6904) (or VLC with the "advanced" checkbox checked (http://files.myopera.com/chaimav/files/vlc.jpg), or MS Word with all it's toolbars turned on (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/33/MSWord.PNG)) for an example of applications that have (debatably) gotten out of control.
It is certainly a matter of opinion. Generally, power users (like most of us) would prefer more options rather than less. We have the benefit of already intuitively understanding what is already there, including the inevitable quirks of the particular program. For example: Why is the "double-click" behavior option found under "General" rather than "Playback"? The skinning options are all configured under the view menu... well, except for Theater View, which is in the Options dialog. Etc, etc, etc... We all already know all of that stuff (without even thinking about it much), so when they add just one more little thing, it's easy to learn. However, for a new user, each new "little thing" puts them further "in the hole"...
The problem is one of "overwhelming" new users. People like my mom (or my boss) would open up VLC's options dialog (even with Advanced unchecked) and just freak out. Too much to wade through. Too much to remember (what did I check while I was in there that screwed it up? how am I ever going to find it again to fix it?)....
The JRiver folks at some point decided to take a "hard line view" on adding new options. The benefit had to clearly outweigh the "cost" of added complexity. I think it's an admirable goal. Maintaining the proper balance between "complexity" and "usefulness" is a delicate dance. I don't always agree with the decisions, but at least I understand the reasoning. Hopefully this helps others do so as well...
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In conclusion.... ;D
That's why I think the separate Advanced Editor could be a better solution. It wouldn't add any additional options, which could confuse a novice who might accidentally check the "Advanced Style Tag Editor" option and then never be able to figure out how to put it back to the way it was. And (even better in my opinion) it would let us use both of the styles of tag editors (and let us resize the cramped MC11.1 style dialog to a much larger size if we want).
If you just need to go in to fix one track's name or genre, just do it right in the Tag AW. If you're "rolling up your sleeves" for a few hours of intensive tagging though, you'd want to pull up the big guns...
I actually like the new style Tag window for viewing tag information. It's "clean" and simple to read. I just don't like it for changing information that's there...
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I understand your points, but I really think MC should stick with the current approach of keeping this sort of task in the AW rather than openning another window. Another window might work well for people with multiple monitors, but for people with single monitors (especially those with smaller monitors) it will just crowd and confuse the interface. The point of the AW is to simplify the interface and provide a SINGLE place for actions such as this -- it's the spot you go for for all the "actions" you want to take. This approach has already been proven to work well in MC11 and 10, so I think it should be continued.
That said, if you're going to offer an "Advanced mode" button ANYWAY (as in your suggestion), why not just use it to toggle the existing Tag window, at which point the same button could now say "Simple" or "Basic" mode? This way, we could still use the AW for tagging -- which is precisely the kind of "action" that the "Action" Window is for in the first place.
Thanks again for continuing the discussion and ideas,
Larry
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I understand your points, but I really think MC should stick with the current approach of keeping this sort of task in the AW rather than openning another window. Another window might work well for people with multiple monitors, but for people with single monitors (especially those with smaller monitors) it will just crowd and confuse the interface.
That is certainly the down side to my idea. My thinking was that the "advanced" nature of the "Advanced Tag Editor" dialog would allow it to move away from the action window area. Plus, you would still have full access to the regular Tag AW if you are very low on screen real estate (and you could always use the Advanced dialog on a particular set of preselected files and click "OK" to close it if you needed to access it's features without using it in the method I described earlier). Also, keep in mind that you could still easily use windows' "Tile" feature (right click on task bar and choose Tile Horizontally or Tile Vertically) to make the two windows take up the whole of the available screen space.
What do other people think? Is the "bigness" of having an Advanced dialog (separate from the AW) a good enough trade off to potentially impact those with limited screen real estate?
And more importantly, what do the JRiver people think? As both Larry and I said before... Are we barking up a blind-deaf tree?
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In some regards in MC 11, some of the fields like Lyrics that were big fields would move off of the tag window. I see no reason why glynor's suggestion wouldn't then work for the entire editing process for an Advanced Tag Editor. Like a lot of tools, it would simply be a detached window.
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I guess I just don't see any real reason for the "seperate window" approach. If an Advanced mode is going to be offered, I don't see any reason to not just put it in the normal AW -- i.e. I don't think that a "seperate window" approach would given any extra incentive to the MC designers to offer the extra features. If they're going to offer it, it might as well be in the AW since this meshes with the overall MC design approach. I think an "Advanced/Basic" button would suffice to keep the interface "simple," although I still think the most logical approach is to offer these settings in the Options. You may be correct, however, about JR not wanting to add to the existing options.
I'm really curious what JRiver thinks about this as well. It seems that there is sufficient interest in it to at least warrant consideration.
Thanks,
Larry
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I see no reason why glynor's suggestion wouldn't then work for the entire editing process for an Advanced Tag Editor. Like a lot of tools, it would simply be a detached window.
I don't understand what the point of seperating the window would be. We already agree that the MC11 Tag screen worked well for this task, so why complicate things more by adding a window "on top" of other things? This is what the AW was made for, and why it works so well. Why not just utilize the AW as it was designed, and put the "Advanced" mode in this space?
There seems to be an idea here that by making the Advanced Tag window "seperate," JR will be more likely to offer it, but I don't see why this would be the case when they already designed the AW to be used for this specific type of thing. I think the thing to push for is the option to get what we had in MC11, which is a much more advanced tag editing screen USING the AW.
Thanks again for the discussion here, which will keep this request alive,
Larry
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I don't understand what the point of seperating the window would be. We already agree that the MC11 Tag screen worked well for this task, so why complicate things more by adding a window "on top" of other things?
For one thing as I mentioned, in MC 11 big field items like Lyrics moved out of the tag window. In MC 12 they stay in the tag window and makes editing pretty much useless. Try easily editing some Lyrics with MC 12 now. Unless you resize the tree side where the tag window is, everything starts wrapping, not to mention we lost the Copy to Clipboard function. At least if there was a separate window with the advanced tagging, that would remember its sizing, you wouldn't have that problem.
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I don't understand what the point of seperating the window would be. We already agree that the MC11 Tag screen worked well for this task, so why complicate things more by adding a window "on top" of other things?
I'd just like it better that way. Because large fields often make it difficult to work within the confines of the Action Window. For example, editing this "Album Name" from one of my live GD shows in the Action Window is very difficult (especially if you need to change what's already there rather than just replace it):
1972-08-27 - Old Renaissance Faire Grounds, Veneta OR (braverman dank source)
A much wider window would help. Modifying long field entries is one of my constant irritations about MC11's Tag Editor, you spend more time fighting with selecting the proper text and getting your cursor where it needs to go than is necessary...
My suggestion wasn't only about replicating the functionality of MC11. Putting it back to the way it was in MC11 would certainly be, for me, a better solution than the current situation (or doing what you suggest and adding an Option to enable/disable "Advanced Style Tag Edting" right in the AW). We certainly agree on that! I was just trying to come up with something that would enhance the functionality in MC12 over what we had in MC11.
A bigger, resizable, separately-floating Tag Editing window would be a Very Good ThingTM as far as I'm concerned, and would make MC12 better than MC11 was. Others may certainly disagree (though it looks like at least one person doesn't)...
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Back in the old times of MJ 8 and MC 9.0, before the Action Window was introduced, tagging already had a floating window... it was not that bad, i.m.o... you right-clicked the file(s) or pressed F2 (?) and a floating window for editing the tags appeared.
I agree with Glynor in the fact that the current "tag" action window is great for displaying the tags, much better than it was in MC 11.1, but something else is needed for editing. I like his idea of an "advanced mode" to combine the best of both worlds.
Just my 2 cents.
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My objection to the "floating" Tag editor would be that it would not be conducive to the way I personally work -- I'd have to be constantly moving it around to get to what was underneath it. I personally prefer simply having the existing AW used for this, as it was in 11. I understand that the floating window would obviously be preferable on a 2 monitor setup, but I'm not using a 2 monitor setup. This is of course a subjective issue, and one's preference depends on the type of work one does. I don't utilize lyrics, so this isn't an issue for me. A floating window would therefore add complexity to a setup that already worked well in MC11.
In other words, a floating window, in MY work, would not be an "enhanced" solution over what MC11 had. I'm the first one to say we need MUCH better tag editing capabilities than MC12 currently offers (this is something I've been pushing for from the beginning) but given the choice, I'd still prefer a fixed window that was ALWAYS visible in the MC layout without having to "activate" it every time I wanted to use it. The problem with MC12, in my personal opinion, is not "where" it is, but rather the layout approach it uses and the lack of features if offers compared to MC11.
We all definitely agree, however, that current Tag editing capabilities in MC12 are not sufficient, that MC11 was vastly superior in this regard, and that SOMETHING therefore needs to be added or changed in MC12.
Once again, thanks for all the discussion on this topic,
Larry
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I have been relatively quiet on this issue, because I use mostly only the file format info in AW when I tag.
Since I started using MJ8 I have always edited tags in "spreadsheet style" in the Content Pane. I have a selection of files and all tags visible simultaneously. The column amount in my "tagging" details view has increased slowly. I think I have currently about 50 columns visible. I scroll the display back and forth all the time during tagging. I think that an ideal display for that would be about 5000 pixels wide. :)
Edit: I checked the column amount. It's 53.
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Most programs that have "floating" windows also have the ability to dock them. So that could be the same with the way it currently works in tiny action window mode docked and having the ability to undock the advanced tagging editor to make it floating and more usable.
But unfortunately this seems like another of those topics where we all discuss how things should work and it falls on deaf ears. Would be nice to hear something like "yeah, we know it's a problem and we're looking into a solution" or "nope, that's the way it's going to stay."
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In programmer's parlance, it's known as feeping creaturism. IE: The tendancy to add options that let you do/use "everything including the kitchen sink" which eventually (at some very difficult to determine point) makes the application impossible to use...
I totally understand this, but the opposite can also be a problem -- i.e. the fear that you'll add "too much" to the options can prevent you from adding options that really SHOULD be included. In the case of the Tag AW, were dealing with a very popular part of the MC layout that is something that different people use in different ways. It's clearly something that people feel strongly about, and it's layout effects the "everyday" usage of MC. It's also clear that there is no "one size fits all" approach that will please everybody -- on the contrary, many people are very disappointed with the new developements. Doesn't this make it the perfect candidate for more configuration options?
It seems like the only reason it doesn't have an options page is because it got to the game a bit late, after the options page already had a lot of entries on it and there were already a lot of configuration settings available.
Larry
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I totally understand this, but the opposite can also be a problem -- i.e. the fear that you'll add "too much" to the options can prevent you from adding options that really SHOULD be included ... Doesn't this make it the perfect candidate for more configuration options?
I agree. And yes.
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Wow, I finally got the tag window I needed!!
(http://www.copesonline.com/tagwindow.gif)
P.S. Don't freak out, it's a mock-up.
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See now... That looks fantastical! ;)
(Thanks for the PS... I was beginning to freak out until I scrolled down.)
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As I am now at the point where I have to purchase MC12 or continue on with 11.1, I'd have to say that this AW issue may end up being critical in my decision: The uncategorised sprawl of the tags in the AW is so frustrating compared to v11.1's system, which I really rely on, that I may not make the move, especially if the option to add or remove ALL fields is not included.
This may seem a bit extreme, and it kind-of is, which is why I say that it only might stop me from buying v12. The major advantage of v12 which really makes me want to upgrade is the faster response in viewschemes which rely heavily on advanced expressions, so that's the nub - if it wasn't for the AW issues, I'd upgrade tonight, though I'd really like some more time with the program to get into some of the image capabilities and other improvements to get a better feel for the new version.
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We recognize that some people won't find it worthwhile to go forward. We respect that decision.
(Trying hard not to be cheeky.)
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The uncategorised sprawl of the tags in the AW is so frustrating compared to v11.1's system, which I really rely on, that I may not make the move, especially if the option to add or remove ALL fields is not included.
Though I really love just about all the other changes in MC12 so far, I too feel exactly this way.
I'm still using MC12, but only on a "test" basis on one of my machines. Unless something with this is improved (I get so hopeful with every new build) I too probably won't make the permanent jump to MC12. (Which I hate, because all the other features are so much better...)
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We recognize that some people won't find it worthwhile to go forward. We respect that decision.
(Trying hard not to be cheeky.)
Is this our answer to this?
I'm really curious what JRiver thinks about this as well. It seems that there is sufficient interest in it to at least warrant consideration.
/me hopes not...
If so, could you be more clear? Do we need to move-on, are you working on it, or are you just undecided on what to do? Perhaps we could come up with better and more workable suggestions if we had some idea of what your boundaries and requirements are. As it is, I feel like we're wishing and hoping and talking but no one is home...
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We recognize that some people won't find it worthwhile to go forward.
Does this mean that J River is fully committed to keeping the existing AW tag system in place, with no refinements which could address the two issues I mentioned in my earlier post?
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Do we need to move-on, are you working on it, or are you just undecided on what to do?
The way I see it, it's never "set in stone." No matter how JR feels at any given moment, there is ALWAYS the possibility that they'll decide to change it. After all, the program is for the users who purchase the program, which means us. If enough users want a Tag screen with more features -- a Tag screen more like the one in MC11 -- I think JR will consider changing it. We just have to keep this subject alive, and hopefully enough people will respond in support of these ideas.
As I said in another thread, It seems like the design decisions surrounding the MC12 Tag window are being made by someone who feels fundamentally different about how it should be used compared to the MC11 approach to this window. MC11's approach to the tag window was that is was a place to do WORK -- i.e. it's design approach centered on functionality. MC11 created a place conducive to editing tags -- ALL tags -- that, depending on your approach to tagging, offered some clear advantages over using the main track window. MC12's approach to the Tag window (so far) is very different.
MC12 seems to see the Tag window as a place to get a very quick, basic view of common tags. One can of course edit the tags here, but the focus seems to be on keeping it small and "unobtrusive" rather than creating a robust "workspace" conducive to the job of tag editing. You can add tags to it, but only in alphabetical order, and with no grid lines it becomes "busy" feeling. It does not offer many of the features that MC11 did like a "Visible Columns" section, gridlines, different color for "read only," etc. It's just not layed out in a way that lends itself to "working" in it, which is immediately apparent to anyone who used MC11's Tag window as a "work" environment. I fully see the point in keeping it "clean" and "unintimidating," but not at the expense of usage, and there is no reason it couldn't offer BOTH approaches via configuration options (i.e. another page on the Options menu.)
Perhaps we could come up with better and more workable suggestions if we had some idea of what your boundaries and requirements are. As it is, I feel like we're wishing and hoping and talking but no one is home...
They're definitely reading these threads (why wouldn't they?), but I'm not sure why they're electing to not be part of the discussion. I too am VERY curious to hear their reaction to these requests is -- i.e. do they simply disagree with us, or are there design considerations we're not aware of, or are they simply busy with other stuff at the moment? It seems odd that a program famous for being incredibly customizable and for offering features that you can't find in other programs would simply disregard such strong requests for more power in this particular area, especially when you consider that the last version already DID offer it.
Any reaction for JR on this would be very helpful.
Thanks -- and sorry for the long post,
Larry
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Wow, I finally got the tag window I needed!!
(http://www.copesonline.com/tagwindow.gif)
P.S. Don't freak out, it's a mock-up.
I'm not sure if any of those fields are read-only (I'd think the "format" row would be), but I'd like it if the mock-up showed a read-only field having the "darker gray" color all the way accross to indicate that it was not editable -- i.e. so that only "editable" fields in the value column use the lighter gray background.
Well... at least the mock-up will look good ;)
Larry
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I fired up v11.1 yesterday for the first time in months.
In all the areas I visited, MC 12 was streets ahead already. All areas that is, except, the tag info window.
The speed was instantly noticeable, with 11.1 being so much slower practically everywhere, thumbnail image quality was dire in comparison to v12, the library browser menu changes? much better in v12...
That tag info window though....
Such a pivotal area, you know?, and after spending a lot of time trying to get my head around v12's tag window, v11.1's was like a breath of fresh air!!
I need, for example, to be able to reset the playcounts on some images, tag some music using the people tag, set the artist tag on my music videos......
My understanding is that these work-shy tags are being tracked down, and hopefully, the net is closing in on them.
There's things about v12's tag window I really like, such as the new tooltips for things like lyrics, and Bios, but, what's the point of them if they're gone by the time you've read two lines? Couldn't they be made to stay so long as the mouse is over them?
Am I the only one experiencing massive lag when I click on 'playlists' in the new tag window?
Which brings me to another downside of the 11.1 --> 12 changes... namely, the 'playlists' tree no longer remembers where you were last time, and now, always opens fully collapsed, which is a little cumbersome to say the least.
dcwebman, love that mock-up. very neat indeed :)
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I'm not sure if any of those fields are read-only (I'd think the "format" row would be), but I'd like it if the mock-up showed a read-only field having the "darker gray" color all the way accross to indicate that it was not editable -- i.e. so that only "editable" fields in the value column use the lighter gray background.
I agree, just didn't want to put the effort (more than I already did) into trying to get that Format background a different color. There has been a lot of talk and I guess I was hoping maybe a picture is worth a thousand words as to what, at least I, would like to see.
I do like MC 12's ability to select the fields I want displayed because in MC 11 I would sometimes search through the different sections to finally find the one I wanted. And I really like the image in the window instead of having to go to another window to see what the image, if any, looks like. The popup checkbox selection for items like Styles is great. So there are some nice MC 12 improvements. The two version's best features just need to be combined now.
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We recognize that some people won't find it worthwhile to go forward. We respect that decision.
(Trying hard not to be cheeky.)
Could you at least explain your rationale around the design? What are you thinking about that is making you change something that was working great? Maybe that would help us understand where you are headed with this.
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How do you guys handle tagging TV Series and Episodes ? I usually name the shows:
01. Episodename.avi
I would then like to group these by TV Series Name - Season - Episode Name
I'd like to have those available in the Panes area but cannot figure out how to get this to Stick.
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I'm confused... The option to "Show Tags In Current View" in the action window ssems to have a mind of it's own. It's certainly not showing me things like "Name" which is definately part of my current view scheme. I find I need to include this item seperately to show it.
What is the purpose of "Show Tags In Current View" ?
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I'm confused... The option to "Show Tags In Current View" in the action window ssems to have a mind of it's own. It's certainly not showing me things like "Name" which is definately part of my current view scheme. I find I need to include this item seperately to show it.
What is the purpose of "Show Tags In Current View" ?
The "Name" always shows at the top of the window which is why it doesn't show at the top of the list even though you have the "Current View" option selected. The addition of "Name" in the "Also Show" list is to ALSO list this field in the main field list, which can be handy depending on your tagging preferences.
The purpose of the "Show Tags in Current View" is to display the tags from the current view scheme FIRST (i.e. at the top of the list) in the same order as these columns display in the View Scheme. This is EXTREMELY useful since it allows you to have your "most used" tags at the top of the list rather than having to hunt for them in the body of the tag window. When using "Show Tags in Current View," the "Also Show" tags will display in alphabetical order AFTER all the fields from the current view scheme.
The reason that the "Current View" options does not show "Name" at the top of the "list" is because it's already listed at the VERY top of the Tag Window.
Larry
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I wrote this somewhere else, but figure it's relevant here.
I like the categories idea (from MC11) for tags. It would be really nice if we could make our own field categories, and have it so fields could belong to more than one category.
The tag AW could have the following options:
- show all tags
- show tags in current view
- show tags with values
- show tag categories
The last one could work similar to how MC11 handled tagging, with dropdowns for each category created.
So I could create a field category called "Classical" and when I want to tag classical music, all I have to do is click on the "Classical" category and all the relevant fields would display.
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The "Name" always shows at the top of the window which is why it doesn't show at the top of the list even though you have the "Current View" option selected. The addition of "Name" in the "Also Show" list is to ALSO list this field in the main field list, which can be handy depending on your tagging preferences.
The purpose of the "Show Tags in Current View" is to display the tags from the current view scheme FIRST (i.e. at the top of the list) in the same order as these columns display in the View Scheme. This is EXTREMELY useful since it allows you to have your "most used" tags at the top of the list rather than having to hunt for them in the body of the tag window. When using "Show Tags in Current View," the "Also Show" tags will display in alphabetical order AFTER all the fields from the current view scheme.
The reason that the "Current View" options does not show "Name" at the top of the "list" is because it's already listed at the VERY top of the Tag Window.
Larry
Thanks. I get it now.