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Author Topic: TV recording and HDD use  (Read 9765 times)

adlelare

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TV recording and HDD use
« on: September 28, 2014, 09:08:46 am »


gents i posted this on the main JRiver 20 thread but only got 1 response from glyn that only addressed a very limited amount of my issue, and this is something that is of value to anyone PVR'ing here is my post:
gents, i have no idea what is going on but...yesterday as my 3tb HDD went in "red" (ie very little space left) i looked at my JRiver recorded TV directory.. and rather surprisingly found two files of supposed 1/2 hour TV recordings, 1 was 45gb in size and the other was 41 gb in size and they also showed "times" that i don't record these shows at (and somewhat surprisingly my ram memory 16gb is often now chugging at near 100% as is the HDD) then as i further investigated i found sub-directories all over this directory (to the tune of over 200gb in space)  most seemed to have been of recorded shows but others just seemed to have been of specific tv stations and times.. most are a few hundred megabits in size and all seem to have .cnk files in them.. so my questions are, cause seeing this is kinda surprising but... the one 41gb file i was able to delete the other one (Cat in the Hat) will not delete (using regular Windows) and so how do i delete it and is this some sort of "buffer" related to "time shifting" capability or Huh and what of all those other directories, which as i often delete or convert recorded TV files (sometimes inside and sometimes outside of JRiver) should i conduct maintenance clean up... TIA

glyn, indicated that i should Save on stop (i believe) and what i what to that option there is a significant number of choices... but here is last night, i recorded "the bourne conspiracy" it was 16gb in size, but than also had a "bourne conspiracy" file folder that is 5.9gb in size...now interestingly not every recording has a file, and may be related to a PVR that has been stopped someone mid-stream then restarted or...  so i would like an explanation of what is happening and how i could delete that big honking file (not only won't it delete but at times the HDD and ram are operating at 100% (which has not happened before ever).. an understanding of this will be helpful to all relatively new TV PVR users like me.

PS if it is related to JRiver shutdowns (which as i suspect many have found this never happened with any audio or pictures), i am finding that doing TVfile conversion inside JRiver is causing ongoing shutdowns (many JRiver files will simply not convert using JRiver) and i wonder if this becomes a self-fulfilled prophecy as i do a lot of PVR'ing, so anytime i am converting i am also likely PVR'ing...

PPS if i understand correctly it seems JRiver keeps a "buffer copy" when you PVR and if you set the timeshifting to four hours and if you are PVR'ing 3 movies at once, i gather you can consume a lot of HDD space.. but who knows for sure as i have yet to receive any definitive answer, which i would still like
 

 
 
 
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CountryBumkin

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2014, 09:50:05 am »

There's something broken. I am also seeing large amounts of disk space being used up by MC for shows that I did not request to be recorded. It may be that MC is buffering/saving the show in case I want to keep it, and I'm not ending the process properly (maybe closing MC without stopping the viewing of the TV station first). I don't know. I only record to ts format and I have time-shifting set to "one hour" and do not save on stop.
Here's an example of two recordings that I did not setup. I have no recordings scheduled for this channel.

Note it says "currently recording" - which it is not, and that date is yesterday.
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mwillems

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2014, 10:13:34 am »

I routinely get "orphans" in the TV directory that seem to be time0shifting temp files that aren't cleaned up after use.  I only record two shows, so it's easy for me to see when items I'm not recording show up. I do not save on stop and have timeshifting set to one hour.  Usually the orphans show up with a title that's just a channel and a date e.g. "4 WRC 2014-09-24 7-20," which is how the directories are named when time-shifting is active.  It's just that MC usually deletes the timeshifted folders when I stop watching, but sometimes it doesn't do cleanup for whatever reason.

I haven't been able to figure out what causes the orphans, but, depending on my TV usage, I'll often wind up with a new "orphan" every day or two.  They vary in size, but they're usually about 1.5G or 2G.  This has been happening pretty consistently since I started using JRiver for TV, even when I'm the only one using TV (so I know they are not accidental records).  The first time I noticed it, I had a hundred or so Gigs in orphans in there, now I manually keep the directory clean.

I assumed it was probably related to the issue with my HDHomerun where MC doesn't cleanly turn off the tuner, but unless you all have HDHomerun tuners, this is probably a separate issue.
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CountryBumkin

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2014, 10:27:06 am »

That orphaned show is using up 6.9GB (109 files) of disk space. It's no problem deleting the folder/files (I consider it part of the "maintenance of the software") but it could eat up a lot of disk space if you're not paying attention to it.
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rudyrednose

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2014, 10:30:39 am »

Same here.  I regularly have to clean up the time shift folder.  I am using 3 HDHR3 dual OTA tuners HDHomeruns.  Not saving on exit and always stopping the streams before I exit MC.
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adlelare

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2014, 10:55:53 am »

hmmm, thanks for the responses to date, to further one comment does 200gb of "orphan" space qualify as "interesting" when two files accounted for 86gb..any idea how to delete a 41gb file that seems to always now be saying "in use by system" (100% ram use (16gb) and 100% HDD use  (3 tb)...next anyone ever got a full and properly useful description from JRiver as to the in, outs and other issues related to "time shifting" (if this in fact is the root cause and/or only cause to this problem)... like does it only happen to shows/movies being PVR'ed, does it happen say once you view a show and then make a buffer file for that channel or...again its one of these many TV issues that again i suggest JRiver try and do a much better job of providing proactive help (in my case i don't think i ever touched "timeshifting" whatever the defaults were as i had no real idea as to its purpose). cause here is a "something" when you go into timeshifting you can timeshift for upto 24hours and both those huge files were started to record at exactly the same time...but at least i can now delete a huge amount of orphans.  like many of you, i used JRiver for many near completely trouble free years with audio/pictures...life on the TV side has become a challenge and quite frankly this issue is disappointing..PS never had these issues when i was using WMC to PVR (a simpler, more limited but more reliable approach)...cheers, thanks for the help.  PS i have both Hauppauge (950Q) and HDHR, with the 950Q set as the preferred tuner for my HTPC, but i do PVR multiple shows at once
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kensn

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2014, 11:01:34 am »

Just mentioning this, only relevant if you are using EOS for TV viewing.

Quote
One word of caution.  MC will continue to buffer the TV Show till you leave the Video Screen in eos by using the back button.  If you lose connection you will need to reconnect in eos, go back to the TV Show and exit the Video Screen, or you can also stop the buffering of the TV Show by simply closing MC and MC Server.  Once you have finshed viewing the TV Show, MC will delete the buffered file.

Thanks
Nathan
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adlelare

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2014, 12:09:21 pm »

so to keep a record of my problems  i went to delete these "orphan" directories and all but one deleted (said it was in use by the system).....so upon opening it wowsie that same huge honking file was also in this directory...so i had two big honking 45gb files (both the same file) and one big 41gb honking file (that i could delete)...i look forward to JRiver's help in this issue, as ram is still at 100% use and so is my 3tb hdd... HTPC is kinda unusable at present.
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adlelare

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2014, 02:57:06 pm »

for the record, my solution to the huge file issue was to uninstall the entire drive from the HTPC, cycle start shutdown, reinstall HDD and then restart... then i was able to delete those offending files.
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JimH

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2014, 03:17:07 pm »

A drive failing to delete files could explain the problem.

Please say what your drive setup looks like.
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CountryBumkin

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2014, 03:18:04 pm »

I see the "orphan" file(s) in Standard View>Video>Files. It shows as one file (the jtv) even though there are other files (cnk or such in the folder) then I right click on it and select "delete (remove from MC and permanently removes the files and folder from disk). That's all it takes on my system. I get no message about protected system files or such. Maybe you have something else going on.
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Yaobing

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2014, 03:22:18 pm »

Orphaned folders with a few files in each are the result of a known issue the cause of which I have not been able to pinpoint.  Sorry about that.  You will have to check the folder once in a while and delete those.  If the folders contain more than just a few files (like it is the whole time-shifting session), there must be some other reason.  Check your "Save on stop" option under Time-shifting.  Is it set to Always save?  Normally you would want to set it to "Do not save".

As for the 41 GB or 45 gb files, I do not know.  What is the file extension?  MC only writes recordings in TS format in the "TV Recordings" folder.  All other files that MC writes during a TV recording or viewing session are in subfolders.  Are you able to delete these files after a reboot of the computer?  It looks to me like a hard disk issue.  Recordings of HD MPEG-2 video should be around 4 - 5 GB per hour.
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Yaobing

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2014, 07:39:12 pm »

glyn, indicated that i should Save on stop (i believe) and what i what to that option there is a significant number of choices... but here is last night, i recorded "the bourne conspiracy" it was 16gb in size, but than also had a "bourne conspiracy" file folder that is 5.9gb in size...now interestingly not every recording has a file, and may be related to a PVR that has been stopped someone mid-stream then restarted or...  so i would like an explanation of what is happening and how i could delete that big honking file (not only won't it delete but at times the HDD and ram are operating at 100% (which has not happened before ever).. an understanding of this will be helpful to all relatively new TV PVR users like me.

glyn - was this glynor?  or somebody else?

I don't think he would advice you to turn "save on stop" option to "Always save".  He must meant occasional use, or let the program ask you each time.  There are indeed many choices for "Save on stop".  You can pick one choice in the Options, and still be able to override it in each individual time-shifting session.  However, imagine you choose "Always save", unless you always override it in each session, all of your live tv sessions will be saved.  That will eat up your hard disk space really fast.  So the best thing to do is to set the option to "Do not save", but occasionally use right-click menu while you watch a particular show, to save the session when you want to.

Now regarding recording, you can record in jtv format, which in a sense is just a saved time-shifting session, with the following exception:  recording in jtv format gives you a recording with a definite start and end time, along with properly tagged program information, while ad hoc "save on stop" saves whatever the current buffer is (which may include multiple programs, or only part of a single program, depending on how much buffering window you choose).

The second recording format is TS, transport stream format.  It is available for all digital TV devices, but only available for some analog TV devices.  When you record in TS format, MC keeps a "copy" of the video in its time-shifting buffer, so that you can go watching the show before recording finishes.  This buffer should be deleted when all recording on a particular device ended.  However, in some cases the deletion is not complete and some files are left in the folder in question.  This is what other people referred to when they said "orphaned" files.

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Yaobing Deng, JRiver Media Center

Yaobing

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2014, 07:45:37 pm »

I found the other thread on MC20 board. http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=92179.msg634440#msg634440

What glynor suggested was that you investigate whether you have set the "Save on stop" option to "Always save".  As I said above, doing so would use up you hard disk really fast.
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CountryBumkin

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2014, 07:10:53 am »

I figured out was was going on with my system.
If I am watching TV (say channel 2.1) MC starts to save files (cnk, jtv, etc.) on my drive. If I hit the "stop" button to end viewing or before changing channels, those files are deleted. But if I change to a different TV Channel (say 6.1) (using up/down channel button. Not hitting stop) the files from 2.1 don't get deleted. I looks like the "stop" command is what causes the files to be deleted.

Edit: To add - sometimes my family just turns off MC (remote>off) when they're done watching TV and they don't hit the "stop button" on the remote. This also leaves files behind. It would be better for me if MC had a setting to never save any files (unless I select "record" prior to the show starting).



It would be desirable to delete these files/folders on "Stop" and on "Channel Change"
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adlelare

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2014, 09:02:18 am »

jim, re. failing drive - not very likely i give that about a 1% chance, as yesterday i put another HDD into my HTPC and pointed JRiver to record to it and same problem.  re. setup, not sure what you mean but all os and app on a SSD and (until yesterday) all media to/from/store on a 3tb HDD, 7200 rpm 64md cache(as i stated i only became aware of issue as HDD went into "red" running out of storage space; yesterday i added a 2tb 7200rpm 64mb of cache.... i actually believe it is related to JRiver software and "handling" of things (not sure what those things are but the "orphan" file situation is IMO a hint of things...
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JimH

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2014, 09:18:26 am »

I didn't mean that the drive hardware was failing.  Only that permissions didn't allow a delete.

Any special software in use that manages the drives?
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adlelare

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2014, 09:23:46 am »

yao posted this:

<<What glynor suggested was that you investigate whether you have set the "Save on stop" option to "Always save".  As I said above, doing so would use up you hard disk really fast.>>

 a couple of things: a) as i understand and the way i would understand given how it is written "pause and rewind live TV"...is well only related to live TV...those hugo files were from PVR'ing (i believe as they were TV shows that i PVR at that time) and the 45gb file is about 6 hours of PVR, so i would guess the PVR time stop just never happened and it kept PVR'ing until something bad happened b) i've used JRiver for many years with no problems (audio, pictures, playing ripped DVD's) with absolutely no freezing of JRiver ever (that i can remember) but... since my journey into using JRiver for live OTA TV, PVR'ing, transcoding (to Gizmo) and file conversion JRiver freezes multiple times per day and so i just shut it down and restart it.  i suspect the problem of these things is related to the freezing and that is what i suspect is the problem. but who knows.. for instance, last nite i re-PVRed the bourne consp.  (started at 8:00pm), i was also watching a movie via JRiver and switching betwen various channels and my granddaughter was watching a movie via Gizmo on a tablet... at 8:30 pm (based on the big bourne orphan file of 3.6gb) JRiver froze and i just shut down JRiver and restarted.   but another poster just id'ed an issue when using "live tv" and needing to hit "stop" before going to another channel...i however think of JRiver TV (live, PVR, store, replay, timeshift, etc.) exactly as i do my Rogers cable service and cable box...fyi as i've posted multiple times i use an Hauppauge 950Q and an HDHR (ver4), with the HP set as the priority, but as i often PVR two shows while watching another they all get used regularly... hope this helps.  PS re. timeshifting a 24 timeshift per station would be what 120+gb on my machine, on Live TV i would prefer say 30 min vs. 24hours (actually i use buffer at times if audio gets gittery (quick pause for 2-5 secs and then restart)  but at present i got bigger issues than that.
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adlelare

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2014, 09:47:24 am »

jim, i use that very, very special software Win 8.1 ;D, re permissions, i doubt it as i had two hugo files (both file typed as Media Center files) one 41 gb deleted as i expected the other simply won't: i physically took out the drive did reboot etc. then it deleted (or so i thought) and then i found another copy in another directory "Movies" (which i found out about when i installed a 2nd drive and moved all movies over to it) so ... even when i earlier i cut/paste it to another drive it showed up on the other drive but stayed on the 3tb drive... anyways i will be cancelling that PVR job today to see if that allows me to get rid of it... PS a note on PVR'ing i will try to PVR on marginal stations (the huge file was on a core/good station) but last nite i wanted to PVR the full monty...and it didn't PVR and i got 14 orphan directories (looks like it kept trying for an hour)...i am trying to delete the honker as i type and ram is 100% in use and HDD is 100% in use, expected i guess given the size..PPS i am most interested in trying to figure out how to get seamless high quality use of MCTV than complaining about this specific issue, i suspect it relates to JRiver freezing and why does it freeze (i recently did a full memory test and memory test was OK, HDD's are all good, CPU is AMD 8302, 16 gb ram and GPU is AMD 7770) so it could be hardware but it may be JRiver conflicts.. but EOD i'm a user not a techy and the fact my 3 year old granddaughter can touch Gizmo, touch Shows and touch (Arthur or dino day or...) (and she is more competent than my wife) is why i prefer JRiver to XBMC or WMC or ....three touch for wireless great quality tablet video is exactly what i and most of the viewing public likely want.
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JimH

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2014, 09:51:48 am »

Freezes aren't normal.  What are you using for antivirus?  Try disabling it.  If that doesn't work, uninstall it.  It's the only way to be certain it isn't causing trouble.

My signature has a link to a thread called "Weird Problems".  You might find something there.

An underpowered machine is a possibility.  Run the benchmark under Help in MC, and paste the results here.

Set video to Red October Standard, if you haven't.
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adlelare

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2014, 10:28:15 am »

jim,  by memory JMark result was 3255 (old betsy was about 900), so i believe more than enough power (and if not well ...).  i use Webroot and Malwarebytes (but i've used many others before and will use others in future).  i've had on Red October HQ for sometime but will try Standard...
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JimH

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2014, 10:29:48 am »

Antivirus programs have caused a lot of problems.  There is a link at the top of the Weird Problems thread.

3200 is a good machine.
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Yaobing

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2014, 10:48:22 am »

We are trying to help you, and help ourselves identify problems.


jim, re. failing drive - not very likely i give that about a 1% chance, as yesterday i put another HDD into my HTPC and pointed JRiver to record to it and same problem.  

When you say "same problem", do you meant you still get those huge files (such as those 41 GB, and 45 GB files)?  Or just folders of files?

Did you check your "Save on stop" settings as glynor suggested?  What was your setting?

Also, I am trying to understand somethings you said in your posts and need clarification.  For example, when you said,
Quote
so to keep a record of my problems  i went to delete these "orphan" directories and all but one deleted (said it was in use by the system).....so upon opening it wowsie that same huge honking file was also in this directory...

Did you delete a file from the folder, and it came back?  When you did it, was MC running?

Quote
for the record, my solution to the huge file issue was to uninstall the entire drive from the HTPC, cycle start shutdown, reinstall HDD and then restart... then i was able to delete those offending files.

And these files, after you deleting them this way, did not come back?  

Also, I asked the following question before, but I have not seen your answer.  If you answered it already, please forgive me for not reading carefully.

What was the file extension of these huge files?

Quote
i physically took out the drive did reboot etc. then it deleted (or so i thought) and then i found another copy in another directory "Movies" (which i found out about when i installed a 2nd drive and moved all movies over to it)


Another copy of the same 45 GB file? 
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Yaobing

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2014, 11:17:07 am »

a) as i understand and the way i would understand given how it is written "pause and rewind live TV"...is well only related to live TV...those hugo files were from PVR'ing (i believe as they were TV shows that i PVR at that time) and the 45gb file is about 6 hours of PVR, so i would guess the PVR time stop just never happened and it kept PVR'ing until something bad happened
Indeed, the 45 GB file is not related to "Save on stop", but the files in subfolders that are left on the hard drive maybe related to it.


Quote
b) i've used JRiver for many years with no problems (audio, pictures, playing ripped DVD's) with absolutely no freezing of JRiver ever (that i can remember) but... since my journey into using JRiver for live OTA TV, PVR'ing, transcoding (to Gizmo) and file conversion JRiver freezes multiple times per day and so i just shut it down and restart it.  i suspect the problem of these things is related to the freezing and that is what i suspect is the problem. but who knows.. for instance, last nite i re-PVRed the bourne consp.  (started at 8:00pm), i was also watching a movie via JRiver and switching betwen various channels and my granddaughter was watching a movie via Gizmo on a tablet... at 8:30 pm (based on the big bourne orphan file of 3.6gb) JRiver froze and i just shut down JRiver and restarted.


If you were running a few TV channels at the time when MC froze, and you shut it down by force, then all the time-shifting buffer files are orphaned.  Could that explain all of your orphaned files?  Obviously we need to find out why MC froze.


Quote
but another poster just id'ed an issue when using "live tv" and needing to hit "stop" before going to another channel...

I thank CountryBumkin for providing concrete information like this.  I will definitely investigate if there is something that I overlooked.

Quote
i however think of JRiver TV (live, PVR, store, replay, timeshift, etc.) exactly as i do my Rogers cable service and cable box...fyi as i've posted multiple times i use an Hauppauge 950Q and an HDHR (ver4), with the HP set as the priority, but as i often PVR two shows while watching another they all get used regularly... hope this helps.  PS re. timeshifting a 24 timeshift per station would be what 120+gb on my machine, on Live TV i would prefer say 30 min vs. 24hours (actually i use buffer at times if audio gets gittery (quick pause for 2-5 secs and then restart)  but at present i got bigger issues than that.

You can set your time-shifting window to a minimum value of 1 hour.  The default is 4 hours which seems to be good for most people.  Setting it to anything higher is not advisable.
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adlelare

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2014, 12:51:20 pm »

yao, first off please understand i came to know of this problem not in "real time" but after the fact only because my HTPC was id'ing i was almost out of space but the hugo files were record subscriptions (e.g one from 8:30 am to 9:00 am) that apparently never stopped recording at 9:00 am (my conclusion) and then just kept going until 1:56 pm.  why did they not stop recording at proper time (i have been PVR'ing these shows for a number of weeks) is IMO the key issue.  it may have been that i was also channel surfing on those stations while it was recording (record and watch) and may have as countryb id'ed never "stopped" watching, which may have caused the failure to stop recording...
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Yaobing

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2014, 05:00:50 pm »

It may as well be true that MC kept recording when it should have stopped, but I am trying to figure out why it is happening, and I hope you can help me.  You seem to have draw conclusion on this matter, which may or may not be correct.  At least you can answer my questions.  Will you?
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RoderickGI

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2014, 05:40:48 pm »

Please don't take offense Adlelare, but it would be much easier to follow your points if you used sentences, paragraphs, and didn't let one thought flow into another. Large blocks of text are very hard to read and work through the issues. I suggest a little formatting and a read through of your posts before hitting the Post button. Again, I don't mean to offend, just help.

Yaobing is on the job, but I think the first thing you need to do is free up at least 20% of your recording disk space, by deleting programs you don't want and deleting all orphaned time shift and other files you can find. It sounds like part of the problem could be that you are using 100% disk space regularly while recording, and that certainly will cause many problems.

If you could analyse the problems you are having without filling the disk, Yaobing may be able to identify the problem.

Note also: I too have some orphaned time shift files, and some probably caused by not hitting stop when I finish watching TV for the day. But my HTPC stays on 24/7, and goes to sleep when it isn't in use, so I don't get files created by forcing MC to close when the HTPC is shut down. To give you an idea of the size of my problem though, I have a 2.7TiB disk (3TB unformatted space) with about 600GiB free. I deleted all my orphaned files last night and only freed 6GiB of space. Your issues are obviously far greater.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

adlelare

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2014, 08:05:33 pm »

yao, you posted this:
It may as well be true that MC kept recording when it should have stopped, but I am trying to figure out why it is happening, and I hope you can help me.  You seem to have draw conclusion on this matter, which may or may not be correct.  At least you can answer my questions.  Will you?

What questions???  as best i can track through your questions:
a) i deleted all the "orphan files" related to the hugo files problem, pretty much as soon as i figured out i could delete them so only the one hugo file remains (and as i posted before it is a Media Centre file); FYI as i posted earlier i since added another 2tb hdd to more easily track this issue with MCTV

b)When you say "same problem", do you meant you still get those huge files (such as those 41 GB, and 45 GB files)?  Or just folders of files? no no more hugo files but i still have orphans and one is 3.7gb for a stopped (JRiver freeze) and then restarted PVR of Bourne supremacy the others are what seems to be the typical "orphan directories" from watching live tv

c) Did you check your "Save on stop" settings as glynor suggested?  What was your setting? Right now it is set to always save, but i changed the hours from 4 to 1.

d) Did you delete a file from the folder, and it came back?  When you did it, was MC running?  the only one was/is that hugo file and i was able to once after taking out the HDD that it was on and then reinstalling i deleted it and i can't remember if MC was running or not, but my guess is that it wasn't... but it then did reappear and then i moved it to an easier to get at directory but it is still there

e) And these files, after you deleting them this way, did not come back?  see above

Also, I asked the following question before, but I have not seen your answer.  If you answered it already, please forgive me for not reading carefully.

f) What was the file extension of these huge files? well i answered originally and correctly in windows it id'ed as a Media Center file... then strangely as i was listening to some "recent music" it showed up as an audio file (go figure) but it is a .ts file (which BTW is what i record in)

and finally drawing a conclusion, well it seems logical to me that the hugo files were shows i was PVRing and i conclude if i didn't PVR them they wouldn't exist  ;D.. but a couple of issues are a) PVR not shutting off when it should've b) it kept on PVRing for likely 4 hours and then when c) JRiver likely froze the file crashed hard....but as i first posted this wasn't a real time seeing of what happened that was more the HDD went red and i discovered this trying to find out why so much HDD got used up so fast.

PS so long as i don't try to do anything with hugo file it doesn't take over my HTPC and i am trying to help you folks out as i suspect this whole MCTV thing needs work (although this forum thing is becoming time consuming).  Read my response to Rod. for some of my general take on things.
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adlelare

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2014, 08:40:50 pm »

Rod my responses to you:

<<Please don't take offense Adlelare, but it would be much easier to follow your points if you used sentences, paragraphs, and didn't let one thought flow into another. Large blocks of text are very hard to read and work through the issues. I suggest a little formatting and a read through of your posts before hitting the Post button. Again, I don't mean to offend, just help.>>

i'm not offended, i'm trying to help the JRiver folks (once i figured out how to stop those hugo files from taking over my HTPC, which was quite annoying)

<<Yaobing is on the job, but I think the first thing you need to do is free up at least 20% of your recording disk space, by deleting programs you don't want and deleting all orphaned time shift and other files you can find. It sounds like part of the problem could be that you are using 100% disk space regularly while recording, and that certainly will cause many problems.>>

acknowledged but here is my comment back, as i posted before i simply added another 2tb drive and repointed MCTV to that drive so in part i could better understand... but and here is the big but and of value to JRiver customer service folks...
a) i was 100% unaware of "orphan files/directories, etc, etc." and only became aware of it when my HDD went Red.. so now put yourself in my shoes or other "new shoes".. HTPC taken over, not knowing this "systemic problem" and then complicated with not being able to simply delete one 45 gb file.. this issue added 175gb in files to my HDD before i even knew of the issue
b) I was 100% unaware of the supposed need not to just "channel surf" but need to stop and whatever else when changing channels ( i use MCTV as i would my cable box) and IMO use of MCTV should be exactly like the cable box
c) this entire IMO poorly explained and maybe poorly executed "time shifting" thing..as follows when i started using MCTV i saw "time-shifting" in options but had no specific understanding of what it did or why it did it (I don't time shift if i want to watch later i simply PVR) and so just ignored it, which is 100% appropriate..and now into more specific issues, is "time shifting" for all channels that i receive OTA or just the ones that i surf too (even if i'm just surfing for whatever reason) and why is there no option to not time shift (a couple of second buffer to help with OTA is generally good) and if i PVR and watch the same channel while PVRing for some period of time, when the PVR is supposed to end but i have "time shifting" at say 4 hours (which i suspect caused my hugo files) what actually happens (does the PVR end with a file and then time-shifting create another). orphan files likely just shouldn't be.. and now that i am aware of the issue i have taken my own steps to not get caught again but i would've preferred to have been informed upfront of proper use
d) my reference frame for OTA PVR was WMC, which while very undesirable as a Msoft product ( i still miss Lotus) it was "new shoes" easy to use reliably (Msoft don't inform you they just completely restrict you)
e) this goes back to my earlier comment someone of IMO JRiver need to provide better more proactive help or guides or something... on just this one issue which in large part i will suggest was not me but JRiver not providing good upfront guides or something (and i will still suggest video how too's)
f) i chose JRiver (many years user of the audio) over others for OTA TV, etc. as IMO it is more capable (except it don't do Inet TV)  but as a non-techy but reasonable user i see a lot of avoidables when "new shoes" have trouble... i suspect many just walk away eventually in frustration
ps i am pretty knowledgeable on customer service.. and a couple of points: customers are rarely wrong (and best companies know that) and customer problems/resolutions are great ways for companies to improve and last thing any company wants is silent unsatisfied customers who just walk away.  cheers,
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Yaobing

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2014, 08:42:56 am »

Quote
(and as i posted before it is a Media Centre file)

What I really wanted to know is whether it was a "ts" file.  You answered that in f).  Thanks.


Quote
no no more hugo files but i still have orphans and one is 3.7gb for a stopped (JRiver freeze) and then restarted PVR of Bourne supremacy the others are what seems to be the typical "orphan directories" from watching live tv

So this 3.7 GB orphan is a folder, containing many files?  I just need to make sure I understand you correctly.  And there are other smaller orphaned folders.

This is typical of a TV recording that was interrupted by a crash, or forced close of MC.  We need to figure out why MC keeps freezing up.


Quote
c) Did you check your "Save on stop" settings as glynor suggested?  What was your setting? Right now it is set to always save,

This can leave a lot of files/folders on your disk.  Whenever you watch a TV show, it is saved.  This includes watching a show "live" (not recording), or watching a show that is currently being recorded.  It will not happen when you watch a recorded show that has finished recording.

Quote
d) Did you delete a file from the folder, and it came back?  When you did it, was MC running?  the only one was/is that hugo file and i was able to once after taking out the HDD that it was on and then reinstalling i deleted it and i can't remember if MC was running or not, but my guess is that it wasn't... but it then did reappear and then i moved it to an easier to get at directory but it is still there

If you took out the hard drive and re-installed it, MC would no longer be controlling that file.  If it came back after you delete it, there might be something else going on on your system.   One possible explanation is that, as RoderickGI hinted, when you fill your hard drive to close to 100%, hardware issues begin to surface.

Quote
f) What was the file extension of these huge files? well i answered originally and correctly in windows it id'ed as a Media Center file... then strangely as i was listening to some "recent music" it showed up as an audio file (go figure) but it is a .ts file (which BTW is what i record in)

It appears that this file is a corrupt file.  One explanation why it shows up as audio in MC is that MC tried importing it and only found audio stream on it (because the file was corrupt).  

Quote
and finally drawing a conclusion, well it seems logical to me that the hugo files were shows i was PVRing and i conclude if i didn't PVR them they wouldn't exist  Grin.. but a couple of issues are a) PVR not shutting off when it should've b) it kept on PVRing for likely 4 hours and then when c) JRiver likely froze the file crashed hard....but as i first posted this wasn't a real time seeing of what happened that was more the HDD went red and i discovered this trying to find out why so much HDD got used up so fast.

Yes, it is a possibility.  I would like to find out why MC did not stop recording if that is the case.  The next time this happens (on your new drive that is not filled to the rim), please email me a log file, along with your TV recording database file (C:\Users\[your user name]\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 20\Library\tvrecording.xml).

Thank you for your patience.
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adlelare

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2014, 10:21:35 am »

morning Yao,

<<If you took out the hard drive and re-installed it, MC would no longer be controlling that file.  If it came back after you delete it, there might be something else going on on your system.   One possible explanation is that, as RoderickGI hinted, when you fill your hard drive to close to 100%, hardware issues begin to surface.>>

FYI i did not fill up my HDD close to 100%, JRiver software and your orphan files totaling +175gb (before i became aware of the problem) filled up my HDD.  Re. controlling the file, as i id'ed yesterday maybe maybe not... but end of discussion re. my HDD..

<<Yes, it is a possibility.  I would like to find out why MC did not stop recording if that is the case.  The next time this happens (on your new drive that is not filled to the rim), please email me a log file, along with your TV recording database file (C:\Users\[your user name]\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 20\Library\tvrecording.xml).>>

Last nite The Tonight Show had this issue (and with all these failures i am now becoming more aware of it) 29 minutes showed up and played and then ended (it is an hour long show)...and so now being aware of the failings and having now set up a 2nd HDD to fully track these failings...i checked the directory and guess what a 3.6gb "orphan directory" with 56 files in it the last one being timestamped at 12:04 am a .cnk file with 0 KB.  FYI i PVR via OTA from one of two separate TV cards (which i've id'ed many times) and FYI, as i posted up once before to Jim, my HTPC which is programed to shut down via Windows Tasks at 1:30 am never turned off (so no crash this time).  Which if i understood Jim correctly can happen if JRiver doesn't "release" the TV..  re. a log file i will send it when i get a chance, but will last nites failed PVR still be in the log.

and FYI i am continuously "playing" with MCTV to try and get it working the way i want... so last nite for instance i was adjusting various MadVR attributes (fabulous DVD video) and i noticed after that that OTA stations opened up (i saw video) a little slower than before (as i was hopping around trying to see the impact of the changes).

lastly i will again request that an option to turn off time-shifting (unless there is a specific reason why that can't happen) be provided (and if a small buffering capability be provided that would be good), i don't use "time-shifting" and doubt i ever will and so turning it off may make some things simpler.  cheers.
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Yaobing

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2014, 11:14:33 am »

FYI i did not fill up my HDD close to 100%, JRiver software and your orphan files totaling +175gb (before i became aware of the problem) filled up my HDD.  Re. controlling the file, as i id'ed yesterday maybe maybe not... but end of discussion re. my HDD..

Please understand that I did not mean that MC was not partially responsible for filling up the disk.  The pronoun "you" did not strictly mean "you did it, not me".  What I meant to say was "when the disk was filled to near 100% of its capacity, it is more likely to fail".  That was all.  There were two issues.  One was the folders of files that fill up your disk the other was a 45 GB file that refused to be deleted.  I was saying that the latter could be caused by hard disk failure, regardless of who actually filled up the disk.
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Yaobing

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2014, 11:19:32 am »

Quote
re. a log file i will send it when i get a chance, but will last nites failed PVR still be in the log.

The log file package will contain log files of current session and previous session.  If you have restarted MC more than once since last night, the log would be lost.  Grab the log immediately after you see a problem next time.
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Yaobing

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2014, 05:30:11 pm »

I figured out was was going on with my system.
If I am watching TV (say channel 2.1) MC starts to save files (cnk, jtv, etc.) on my drive. If I hit the "stop" button to end viewing or before changing channels, those files are deleted. But if I change to a different TV Channel (say 6.1) (using up/down channel button. Not hitting stop) the files from 2.1 don't get deleted. I looks like the "stop" command is what causes the files to be deleted.

Edit: To add - sometimes my family just turns off MC (remote>off) when they're done watching TV and they don't hit the "stop button" on the remote. This also leaves files behind. It would be better for me if MC had a setting to never save any files (unless I select "record" prior to the show starting).



It would be desirable to delete these files/folders on "Stop" and on "Channel Change"

CountryBumkin et al,

Did you view TV programs on a client?  I have a suspicion that this is related to viewing a show on a client.  When the client fails to issue a stop command, the recording on the server can go on and on.  Please confirm whether this is the situation.
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RoderickGI

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2014, 10:08:53 pm »

I'm not going to try to respond to everything because that would probably just muddy the waters. I think we can acknowledge, and JRiver has via Yaobing, that it is possible to get orphaned directories containing TV recording files. That needs to be understood and fixed.

However, I gave an example of the quantity of orphaned files that I have experienced. It was 6GB of files, accumulated over one year of pretty consistent TV use, lots of PVRing, and lots of Time Shifted TV watching. I had never cleaned up the orphaned files and directories before you started this thread.

Your issues, Adlelare, are way bigger that that, I understand, so why is your installation so different to mine?

Well, first and foremost to me is that you have your "Save on stop" setting set to "Always save". When you do that, every time you watch TV or channel surf, MC will save what you were watching. The saved files are not associated with TV programs, because they were not "PVRed". They are just saved broadcast time. I think the directory names do not even reflect program names, just channel, date and time, or similar. A recording of a two hour program broadcast at 1080i (1440x1080) will consume about 6.2GB of space for the stations I receive. That is going to quickly add up.

You don't like Time Shifting, and yet you save what it does, every time you use MC for watching TV. The default setting is "Do not save", so you have turned it on at some stage, possibly when you misunderstood Glynor's advice.

If you only changed that setting in the last few days, then it couldn't be the cause of the 175GB of "orphaned files" that you observed, but it will be filling your 2TB drive now. MC is doing what you asked it to do. Saving every time.

So please, please, change the "Save on stop" setting to "Do not save", and eliminate one confusing part of the problem.

Now, you don't like Time Shifting, and PVR everything that you may want to watch, now or later. I PVR a lot as well. But I love time shifting, especially when I do not want to record a program, but I want to watch it more or less as it is broadcast. You see if I PVR a program, I need to manage that recording. At some stage I will have to go into MC and delete the recording, once I have finished with it. Of course I could have MC delete it after X days, or if it is a series, have it keep Y episodes and delete older episodes. But I have no idea when I may get around to watching recordings, so I usually set MC to "Keep Forever". Therefore it needs manual deletion later.

However, if I am watching something more or less as it is broadcast, and don't care to save it for later viewing, Time Shifting is great. I can pause the program at any time to go and get a coffee, or perhaps even have dinner, and come back to watch the rest of it when I am ready. If I do need to walk away from the TV for a few minutes, and pause the program, when I come back I have a buffer of recorded TV so I can skip forward over commercials, in just the same way I can if I PVR the program. I can also skip back if I miss a bit of the dialogue, or just want to view a section again. I use this a lot watching the MotoGP broadcasts.

So I personally think Time Shifting is fantastic, and makes watching TV so much better! I have used it ever since I bought my first PVR, many years ago. I set my Time Shift buffer to 4 hours, which means that I can time shift a whole movie if I need to. If I decide I am not going to watch it then, I have the option in MC to save the Time Shift buffer anyway, for later viewing, using the OSD menu (arrow up to see the option).

Time Shifting only records the current channel that you are watching, and not all available channels. My understanding of the MC design is that it is Time Shifting that allows you to watch a program while you are also PVRing that program. Let's not go into details, but you need it if you want to watch programs while you record them. This is particularly true as you record in TS format. I record in JTV format, which behaves slightly differently. This thread is worth reading: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=68402.msg460818#msg460818

So in addition to setting the "Save on stop" setting to "Do not save", I recommend that you change the amount of Time Shifting MC manages back to 4 hours. You will then be able to PVR fewer programs, and also get all the advantages that PVRing gave you, without the maintenance overhead.

Now, the huge 41 and 45GB files. It appears that they were created on your original disk, which was running at 100% some of the time. You said the RAM use also went up to 100% at the time you noticed the hard disk usage. I think Windows was trying to save the files that MC was creating, either due to recordings or time shifting. Windows couldn't save the files, but probably did write some data to the disk. Something went wrong and the files were corrupted. The File Allocation Tables of the disk were probably also corrupted, or at least had errors in it, as it indicated that a 1/2 recording was 45GB in size. The fact that you had to uninstall the disk from the PC in order to have Windows release the file, and allow its deletion, is a very strong indicator that this is what happened. Windows (or MC I guess) may even have tried to write the file to a second, temporary location, rather than lose it altogether, which may be why what appeared to be a second copy of the file reappeared elsewhere on the disk.

Whatever happened, the cause was almost certainly the fact that your disk was 100% full. There may still be some errors on your first disk. I advise that you run Chkdsk or another good disk utility over it when MC is not running and repair any errors.

I'm not sure if you still have one of the huge files, but if you do, you should be able to delete it after running Chkdsk. Before you do though, could you post the full name of the file? That may help Yaobing understand if it was a Time Shifting file, or a PVR file. Or at least if Windows thought it was part of such a file.

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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

CountryBumkin

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2014, 07:08:35 am »

CountryBumkin et al,

Did you view TV programs on a client?  I have a suspicion that this is related to viewing a show on a client.  When the client fails to issue a stop command, the recording on the server can go on and on.  Please confirm whether this is the situation.

Yes, I do all my viewing on Clients.
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Yaobing

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2014, 11:09:51 am »

Typically, do you have multiple clients requesting the same channel from the server?

Do you have multiple channel types that require different tuners (for example ATSC vs. CableCARD, or STB)?  If so, does it make any difference if the channel you switch to is the same type of different type of channels?

When there is no change in channel type, and only one client is using the tuner, we try not to stop the tuner, but to directly change channel on it.  Does this fit your usage pattern?
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rudyrednose

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2014, 01:18:09 pm »

Yaobing, I think a sticky poll thread might be useful for all to get to know better the different usage patterns.

In my case:
- JR version: 20
- JR standalone computers: 1 (work laptop, no TV watching)
- JR Server: 1 (always on)
- JR clients : 7 (HTPC on every TV in the house + computers and Windows tablet)
- TV system region: North America
- TV country: Canada
- storing as .jtv: Yes
- storing as .ts: No
- "save on stop": No
- USB OTA tuners: 0
- Internal OTA tuners: 0
- Networked OTA tuners: 3 (3 dual tuners, HDHomerun HDHR3-US)
- Cablecard tuners: 0
- Satellite tuners: 0
- Watching TV on JR server: Yes
- Watching TV through cabled Ethernet: Yes
- Watching TV through WiFi: No (apart from occasional tablet use)
- Streaming TV to Internet: No
- Watching same live program on different clients at same time: Yes

That's a starting point, my items are biased by what I know.  I suggest you setup a proper poll thread ;-)
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CountryBumkin

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2014, 01:46:21 pm »

Typically, do you have multiple clients requesting the same channel from the server?

Do you have multiple channel types that require different tuners (for example ATSC vs. CableCARD, or STB)?  If so, does it make any difference if the channel you switch to is the same type of different type of channels?

When there is no change in channel type, and only one client is using the tuner, we try not to stop the tuner, but to directly change channel on it.  Does this fit your usage pattern?

If you're asking me - the answer is No, I just use ATSC. I have a couple of client machines in the bedrooms but I only use one at a time.
My Server has the tuner card (a Hauppauge Colossus, which as two built-in tuners. The Server does all the scheduled recording. 
One of the client machines also has a tuner card (Hauppauge 950-Q USB stick/tuner).
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Yaobing

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2014, 01:54:17 pm »

Thanks guys.

I was not trying to get general usage patterns.  I was just trying to get a sense of what maybe causing the problem of server not cleaning up the time-shifting files.  That is why I asked the questions only in this thread.
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Yaobing

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Re: TV recording and HDD use
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2014, 05:51:26 pm »

Build 21 is available now.  Please test it.  Two issues (both are related to leaving unwanted time-shifting folders on hard drive, and both related to playing on a client) were fixed.  With this fix, MC will not leave an entire folder of unwanted time-shifting data when user switches channels on a client.  The problem of occasionally leaving a few files in a folder is still not fixed.
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