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[Daydream]

Maybe this was discussed many moons ago and I missed it. How did the Theater View navigation got to be the way it is now, and what reasoning was behind it?

Why do I ask? A few issues, with a movie view shown below



- the selection highlight, can only move 50% of the vertical size of the screen (arrows, faded area), after that the screen moves (scrolls), (unwanted) navigational jump happens (all the way to left left), or nothing happens (all the way to right). I would make the argument that this is distracting; if I'd like to go above or below what I see I would go to the top or last row and push up or down. Furthermore, if I scroll high-speed, the sensation is that the screen scrolls by itself not because I'm doing anything with my selection (since my highlight selection, will maintain, visually, a position close to the center of the screen).
- about that far left navigation. If I go left while navigating and for whatever (but predictable) reason I overshoot, the screen will jump to top roller which is nowhere near where I was navigating. If I really overshoot the movement ("really overshoot", meh... just 2 more than it should), I may find myself in a total different section of Theater View (Top roller -> Back to wherever, etc).
- If I go far right, on whatever row I may be, everything stops dead. It doesn't even jump to right scroller (should I chose to show it; just an idea.)

Note: there may be other navigational choices in Theaterview that I consider awkward; for Audio, when choosing "More" from the top roller and go for "Toggle style", the "Toggle style" buttons remains the active button as you change styles. Except when choosing the 3D wall style, and the focus suddenly jumps... above if I'm not mistaken. What if I wanted to keep browsing the styles? I have to look around where my focus/selection is to get back.

I don't see how all these can be good.  Why isn't the highlight allowed to go absolute-top and absolute-bottom? Why isn't the left-right navigation given some meaning to actually stay on page? Was there some logic for this that escapes me?

[rick.ca]

Why isn't the highlight allowed to go absolute-top and absolute-bottom?

I like it this way. It indicates whether the top/bottom row shown is the beginning/end of the list (if it is, the cursor moves to it from the middle).

Why isn't the left-right navigation given some meaning to actually stay on page?

I understand the need for left to be consistently used for navigating back, but I don't think that's a good reason to have right do nothing at the end of a row. It should scroll to the first item on the next row. The way it is, it's very cumbersome to scroll through a list one-at-a-time. I've completely abandoned this list style because of this. It may not be as pretty, but it's much more effective to scroll through a simple list. In a "large" file info view, right should advance to the next file (i.e., showing the same view).

Except when choosing the 3D wall style, and the focus suddenly jumps... above if I'm not mistaken.

Yes, this is annoying.

[Sandy B Ridge]

I *really* like the way theaterview works. Once you get your head around the fact that left (to the edge of the screen) is a quick shortcut back to the menu roller then it is very easy to navigate. I think it is very well thought out, both aesthetically and functionally.

I used one of the XBMC forks on the Mac before I built my HTPC and that was a nightmare to navigate. Menus seemed to pop up all over the place in a pretty inconsistent fashion, sometimes by a right arrow, sometimes by an up or down arrow. Just confusing unless you use it all the time and familiar with each different view configuration. Useless for WAF.

My other half (Ivy!  ) is so not tech savvy, but the theaterview interface is *so* straightforward and consistent that she loves it! This is what programs should be like - looking good and functional.
 
Don't get me wrong, I think there are improvements that can be
made. The TV section could be made to look superb. If you could scroll through Live TV channels as easily and aesthetically as movies, that would be great. Getting icons for the Worldwide channels is probably a minor issue.  Also a grid EPG would be functinally and aesthetically great. (there are threads asking for this going back as long as TV integration appeared in MC!).
SBR

[Daydream]

I understand the need for left to be consistently used for navigating back,

I though Backspace has that purpose. That's why I have a keyboard, the whole keyboard in front of me. For a remote, I'll program keys to do my bidding anyway.

I *really* like the way theaterview works. Once you get your head around the fact that left (to the edge of the screen) is a quick shortcut back to the menu roller then it is very easy to navigate.

I do not ever foresee being able to make that adjustment, hence this thread. It is unlike any other navigation in any other program I know of. Feel free to take this as original and innovative, I choose to express my reservations.

My other half (Ivy!  ) is so not tech savvy, but the theaterview interface is *so* straightforward and consistent that she loves it! This is what programs should be like - looking good and functional.

But the lack of choices doesn't bother you? I find that funny.

[MrHaugen]

I though Backspace has that purpose. That's why I have a keyboard, the whole keyboard in front of me. For a remote, I'll program keys to do my bidding anyway.

I don't know of many persons that want a whole keyboard next to the couch. That's why Theater View is designed to work only with arrows and ok/enter button. So it can work on any remote. To limit this to remotes with specific buttons only would be less good imo.

I do agree however that there is several things to fix here. The navigation works for most parts, but some improvements is possible. I'll present a more or less complete suggestion of a new theater view approach within the next week, I hope. This will fix many of your issues, and add lots of functionality. It might be added to the Beta boards first though.

[Daydream]

I don't know of many persons that want a whole keyboard next to the couch. That's why Theater View is designed to work only with arrows and ok/enter button. So it can work on any remote. To limit this to remotes with specific buttons only would be less good imo.

I'd say on any keyboard suited for HTPC -

there are more than 4 buttons (refrained from making jokes about 4-keys keyboards ). Any remote worth its name has more keys and most are programmable. I understand the minimalist concept but it got a bit too far in my opinion on this one (left to go top? hmm).

Also, another thing that came to mind - while I can't make this argument across the board (it may be dependent how one configures the views), it takes 3 clicks to see a movie (ENTER on a movie in, say, the above screenshot, ENTER again from the "details" view, ENTER again on the "Watch" button). Too much.

I'll present a more or less complete suggestion of a new theater view approach within the next week, I hope.

That's cool. Any further work is appreciated.

[JimH]

The navigation works for most parts, but some improvements is possible. I'll present a more or less complete suggestion of a new theater view approach within the next week, I hope.

Two or three specific suggestions would be more useful than a plan for a re-design. 

We're happy with Theater View's navigation now and have no plans to overhaul it.

daydream:

left to go top? hmm

The left arrow goes back.  Seems logical to me.

[Daydream]

daydream:
The left arrow goes back.  Seems logical to me.

Not in the situation described in the screenshot I posted. Say you are on raw 53 of listed movies, on the furthest left item. If you press left one more time, the selection jumps to the top roller, 53 rows up and there is no way to return where you where. 2 Lefts moves you off the current page (since it goes Up and then Back).  It's easy to make a mistake like that.

[JimH]

Not in the situation described in the screenshot I posted. Say you are on raw 53 of listed movies, on the furthest left item. If you press left one more time, the selection jumps to the top roller, 53 rows up

So don't do that. 

and there is no way to return where you where.

Two down arrows will do it.

I know you may think this navigation subject should be easy, but .... uh .... it's not.  It took a long time to work out what we have.  It works for mouse, keyboard, touch screen, and remote, and that was tough to do.

[Daydream]

So don't do that. 

Am I holding it wrong?

Two down arrows will do it.

True. It just depicts how far apart we are in seeing this - I just don't see that as normal navigation.

[JimH]

I'm reminded of how even perfect logic can sometimes be confusing.

You know the expression "Two wrongs don't make a right"?

When I said that once to my brother-in-law, he came right back with "True, but three rights make a left."

[rick.ca]

I do not ever foresee being able to make that adjustment, hence this thread. It is unlike any other navigation in any other program I know of. Feel free to take this as original and innovative, I choose to express my reservations.

It takes a lot of resistance to not learn something this simple and perfectly consistent. Sometimes being the best requires being different.

It seems to me this behaviour is essential for the overall design to work. Yes, adapting to the fact "left" means "back" but not always "back to previous item" is a compromise. But with that compromise, we get a navigation control that doesn't require fumbling for a different key. That's essential in an environment where so much is done by selecting different views and most actions require a selection from a menu. These things are clearly more common and more important than a minor inconsistency in navigating to previous item that only occurs in one view style that's not particularly effective anyway. Use only list styles, and the problem goes away.

Or program your remote ("any remote worth its name has more keys and most are programmable") so "back" moves to the last item in the previous row. I'm not being facetious. I solve several "problems" this way...

• Navigate to next item from (and remaining in) detailed info pane: {Down}{Left}{Down}{Enter}
  It would be better if {Right} did it, but this works fine (but only for a list style view).
  
  
• Navigate to previous item from detailed info pane: {Down}{Left}{Up}{Enter}
  Needless to say, I don't want {Left} to do this anyway.
  
  
• Delete file: {Enter}{Right, 5}{Down, 2}{Enter}
  I download, watch and delete TV Shows, so I need an easier way to delete.
  This confirms the delete; drop the last {Enter} to require a confirmation.

[lhwidget]

Daydream,
I had the same problem when I started with MC15.  MC 15/16 navigates differently, I had been using XBMC, I was used to it, and I didn't like how MC 15 acted in Theater View.

Now, I'm completely comfortable with MC15/16's behavior, select a main category, press the "center" select button, then down arrow or page down to the row with the artist I want, then right to the artist.  Then either center button to enter the artist for a specific album, or play button to play all the artist's albums.

The cool thing is left "past the edge" always navigates up one level.  That is, left once while in playing now gets me back to the album, left again gets me back to my artists listing, left again gets me back to the main screen.  The left arrow quickly becomes synonymous with the "back" (or escape) command, and you quickly get used to navigating this way.

Now it's as natural as XBMC was...

[Daydream]

Jim, I appreciate your words of wisdom.

In the grand scheme of things I will keep this for myself as a suggestion that may help improve Theater View, and hopefully, you can add it to the pile of things that, upon a good shake up, might provide cool ideas in the future. If that's Ok with you I will keep on shooting suggestions at Theater View in the next few days.

As for your reply Rick, I'm afraid we are one more time at opposite ends. While you may consider this between simple/perfect and minor inconsistency, I will beg to differ and point that because of the very particular way your handle your media, you are not exactly in a good position to explain it to me what view is effective and how. And I really liked the part with "sometimes being the best requires being different". Prepare some argument for when I will show you different and you will want to stay with the current views.

[Daydream]

Daydream,
I had the same problem when I started with MC15. 

I'm not sure how this was implied but let me set the record straight: I was talking mainly about keyboard navigation. My aim at remotes was that I can program everything I want and that will be more than 4 keys, so why this 4-key craze. Secondly I'm focused 90% on video content, its views and navigation. I leave music in general to the other 100.000 people around here that talk music exclusively.

As for XBMC, please don't start me, you're playing with fire (joking!) . Jim will have to approve an all-out fight in a thread somewhere to get me to talk comparison between the two.

[JimH]

In the grand scheme of things I will keep this for myself as a suggestion that may help improve Theater View, and hopefully, you can add it to the pile of things that, upon a good shake up, might provide cool ideas in the future. If that's Ok with you I will keep on shooting suggestions at Theater View in the next few days.

We always like suggestions.  We just don't like it when people get up on the table and jump up and down until they get their "suggestion".

[lhwidget]

I'm not sure how this was implied but let me set the record straight: I was talking mainly about keyboard navigation. My aim at remotes was that I can program everything I want and that will be more than 4 keys, so why this 4-key craze. Secondly I'm focused 90% on video content, its views and navigation. I leave music in general to the other 100.000 people around here that talk music exclusively.

I guess because the five primary navigation keys on a remote function exactly the same as the direction keys and enter key on a keyboard.  The default behavior in MC maps them with the same functions.  I also use most of the 48 key presses available to me on my MCE remote interface in EventGhost.

It was easier for me to learn how to navigate MC than re-program EventGhost and my Harmony to get MC to behave exactly as XBMC did.

Also, the basic navigation keys in movies and music behave the same.

As for XBMC, please don't start me, you're playing with fire (joking!) . Jim will have to approve an all-out fight in a thread somewhere to get me to talk comparison between the two.

I didn't mean anything good or bad about XBMC compared to MC, just that they navigate differently.

[rick.ca]

...I will beg to differ and point that because of the very particular way your handle your media, you are not exactly in a good position to explain it to me what view is effective and how...

My comments had nothing to do with "the very particular way (I) handle (my) media." You had asked...

I don't see how all these can be good. Why isn't the highlight allowed to go absolute-top and absolute-bottom? Why isn't the left-right navigation given some meaning to actually stay on page? Was there some logic for this that escapes me?

I'm confident the design is good it won't be changed in a way that ignores its essential qualities.

[Daydream]

Rick, to quote somebody smart around here - you don't use my views, U don't have the problem. As it happens me and other people use them or want to use them.

You said use list views.
So you wanna see more text info in a 10-foot interface. How is that right? I am thinking lavish graphics, shadows, reflections and highlights and you aim for list style. Will we ever see things the same way?


Talking about the absolute top and bottom thing. The current way (preventing abs. top & bottom) that is a kind of navigation aimed at tablets where you move the screen and not an element (the selection) on the screen. On a normal screen you trigger action by reaching a limit, an edge, etc. Triggering action from near middle of the screen - I'd like to hear more details about that school of designing interfaces.

[Daydream]

lhwidget, I generally agree with the remote situation.

In keyboards land however I see the same effects as I describe it at the top, for music just as with movies.

I didn't mean anything good or bad about XBMC compared to MC, just that they navigate differently.

Unfortunately there is no exact metric, what makes a good navigation. Number of keystrokes from A to B may give some hints, but in the end it's subjective, depending on the layout, type of content, etc.

[rick.ca]

Will we ever see things the same way?

Certainly not if you assume you know how I see things and don't bother reading what I actually say. I answered your direct questions as to why the design is the way it is. My main reason for abandoning the thumbnail list style (which should indicate clearly to you I was using it) was because there is no way to advance one item at a time with one key. This could be remedied by allowing {Right} key to do continuous "next item" navigation. I would not want the current behaviour of {Left} to be sacrificed simply so there would be a consistent "previous item" navigation.

Unfortunately there is no exact metric, what makes a good navigation. Number of keystrokes from A to B may give some hints, but in the end it's subjective, depending on the layout, type of content, etc.

Of course it's mainly subjective, but it doesn't have much to do with layout or content. The need to navigate "back" to menus and previous views is important and universal. Just because the decision is subjective doesn't necessarily mean it's difficult to make. You're certainly not going to change it by declaring only those who do or want things exactly as you do can speak to the matter. On the contrary, good design requires the ability to understand and weigh the merits of conflicting objectives.

So now that you understand why these things are the way they are, can you suggest any changes that might be worthy of consideration? Things that would be helpful to some without being detrimental to others?

How about this. If we ask nicely, maybe JRiver would consider adding the MCC's we both require. PreviousItem and NextItem commands that would do as their name implies (in a cursor navigation context) regardless of the list style. You could program your remote so the left button did PreviousItem. I would leave my {Left} and {Right} as they are and program these to other buttons. The change wouldn't affect anyone not wanting to take advantage of the addition commands. Best of all, it wouldn't require any agreement on which navigation method is better.

[Daydream]

Certainly not if you assume you know how I see things and don't bother reading what I actually say.

Believe I can make my own choices, read and weight answers as I see fit.

I answered your direct questions as to why the design is the way it is.

Did you designed it??? Your rationalization may suggests that you have a personal stake in the geometry of it.

I'm tired to debate anything with you over n posts. Your final point above it's probably valid for remotes but like I said I was talking keyboards. As far as I'm concerned what I said was well said and pointed, and where I left it with Jim was good enough.
Let me spare you any further grief: we do not see Theater View with the same eyes, and at the rate it's going, will never do. Your arguments are well and nice with lots of stuff around but they just don't apply to the way I see things. Our views are axiomatically different. I will do my best to explain mine but I won't see to engage in like-now debates. I'm sure this can be called in a number of ways. I don't care. If what I see is something good that can be done, so much more happy I'll be. If not - the world is large and there are many choices.

[Sandy B Ridge]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and healthy debate is always a good thing. Being made to see things from  another person's perspective can only serve to make us more rounder characters and less egocentric.

The first rule of politics (and software development) is that you can't please all the people all of the time. If you try and do this you are setting yourself up to fail. As long as you please most of the people most of the time, then you are probably doing an excellent job!

My view is that JRiver is doing a great job with this product. It doesn't please me all the time, because there are things that do not suit me or my setup. JRiver is almost unique as a development company in the developers (and CEO) actively participating in forums. Most companies would have used a lowly PR person to interface with the forum (or even not participate at all).  We are lucky as users that we have a direct link into the development team, both for problem solving and floating new suggestions and ideas. Some good ideas get implemented and some get ignored. That is Matt/Jim's perogative. If we feel they have missed a thread with a 'killer' feature, then they have in the past suggested that we politely repost a little while later when there may be more time for consideration.

If enough people politely request the same feature, then perhaps we as users may be lucky!

SBR