INTERACT FORUM

udeups,

Try a reinitialize and make sure the data is correct in MC for some of the files with funky data.

Ok, I reinitialized and synced my playlists with iPod. Like Phil's last post in the other thread, I received the same results. The tag information on the files affected was good to begin with. To make sure, I backed up my library, cleared all last played and number plays information for all files. I then initialized the iPod, synched, played a few songs and then reimported to MC. All the files except the ones that got played had wildly erroneous values for the two fields. The ones that got played had correct information giving number plays of "1" and last played of "3 minutes ago" "7.3 minutes ago" etc.

It seems like a simple filter could be implemented (i know, I've said it before) that does the following:

IF Number Plays from iPod > 20 (or some arbitrary number that's sufficiently high enough to not be a realistic value) THEN skip update of MC tags.

IF Last Played from iPod < 0 or > (again a very very large number) THEN skip update of MC tags.

While that's not really solving the underlying problem, this would prevent people from jacking up their tags.

If I understand right, people see this same problem when they don't set the clock on the iPod. That's not the problem in my situation but, the above filter would keep those people from messing things up for themselves.

Anyway, that's my $0.02. Great work on the plugin, Steve. It's really come a long ways!

In the old support thread, SteveG wrote:

The rating on iPod will overwrite MC only if you have the 'Sync iPod info to MC' checkbox enabled.

>> Only if I've listened to a song on the iPod should its rating be updated (assuming I listened to it prior to changing the rating).   

I disagree. One can change ratings without listening to a song.  Because it is possible that a user has the same song on iPod and in MC with different ratings, I think it is important to have the checkbox to give the user control over which rating should sync.

If I understand this correctly, it means I can rate songs on MC, or on my iPod, but not both (according to how I've set the synch checkbox).  Indeed, today I changed some ratings in MC, and after I synched my pod the new ratings were gone.  This doesn't seem like the right thing to do.  Besides, in any case, I want to get the last played & nplays data from the iPod, so I have to have the box checked, which means I can never rate in MC.   (I assume those two fields aren't problematic -- you should only update last played if it got newer, or nplays if it got bigger, right?)

So what's the right way to synch a rating?  At the very least, I'd say a zero (absent) rating in one place should not overwrite a non-zero rating in the other.  I could probably live with that.  But I'm also inclined to agree with the other guy, that I only want the rating updated if I listened to the song since the last synch.  On the iPod, unlike MC, the only way to get to the ratings widget is by playing the song.  So the only way I can change a rating without the song showing up as having been played is if I play it, rate it, then switch tracks before it finishes playing (I'm assuming that's how it works, correct me if wrong).  I am completely willing to have it be a requirement that I finish playing the song (even if just by fast-forwarding it) in order for its new rating to be seen.

How does iTunes manage this?

bvm:

I'm "that other guy" and I'm with you.

Steve is going to tell us that this is why the "sync iPod info w/MC9 is a checkbox.

What you would in the situation you described above, is rate songs in MC9, uncheck this box, to get the rating info onto the iPod and then for any changes you make on the iPod, you make sure this is checked.

This to me at least is somewhat awkward.  I have to then remember, "did I change any ratings in MC9?" before each sync.  Also, if I did, I have to first remember to sync the iPod to MC9 so I don't lose my playcounts and last played data that may be on their.

Get it?  It gets really complicated.  That's why if we could somehow manage this buy a "last modified" field in MC9's database and match that w/a similar field in the iPod's database--things would be golden.

I haven't tested how this works in iTunes, but since you don't have the option of unchecking "sync iPod info w/iTunes" then they must do something like this....

Adam

<snip!>
That's why if we could somehow manage this buy a "last modified" field in MC9's database and match that w/a similar field in the iPod's database--things would be golden.
<snip!>

A 'Last Modified Data Wins' rule, tested on each entry, during data synch.  Perfect.

bvm:

I'm "that other guy" and I'm with you.
<snip!>

.bvm has been assimilated
.the collective grows
.you, too will be assimilated
.resistance is futile, yo  

I also am having some "issues" with .286 ...

I bought a handful of tunes from the store - created a smartlist in MC9. First sync only checked that smartlist - it showed up on the pod, but all other lists were gone, thought everything was still there. The .aac tunes would not play

So - ran the Apple updater & reinitialized in MC9 - synced the .aac list and one other. Both showed up on ipod but again .aac tunes don't play. On the computer they play both from within itunes and MC9.

Reading another post, I then tried to see if they would play from the ipod, from MC9. But - MC9 locks up when I connect the ipod to the computer. I've tried it three times - computer 'notices' that ipod is connected, itunes opens & I tell it to 'go away' (are there things I should do in itunes?), it sounds like MC9 is reading the ipod, but the little blue "reading ..." (or whatever it says) never appears & nothing else happens from that point on. The hourglass and cursor arrow locked up the first time, just now I could move them, but couldn't do anything - not even use Ctrl+Alt+Delete to shut MC9 down.

Appreciate all the work going on to enable MC9 and .aac to play nicely. Hope I haven't left anything out. (20GB G2 ipod, XP sp1) - can't copy the details from MC9 as I'm on another machine.

All,

As a test (just to confirm), I resigned myself to the fact that I'm going to have to Restore my iPod, and loaded my iTMS songs using iTunes. They work fine, which seems to suggest that the DRM is the issue. MC can move the files, but iTunes must somehow authorize the songs for play, which MC doesn't do (yet  ). Hopefully this will change at some point, and I can go back to using iTunes solely for the music store....

Just thought I'd post my experience.

crow

All,

As a test (just to confirm), I resigned myself to the fact that I'm going to have to Restore my iPod, and loaded my iTMS songs using iTunes. They work fine, which seems to suggest that the DRM is the issue. MC can move the files, but iTunes must somehow authorize the songs for play, which MC doesn't do (yet  ). Hopefully this will change at some point, and I can go back to using iTunes solely for the music store....

Just thought I'd post my experience.

crow

Crowfan:

Once they're authorized in Itunes, can you  remove them from the ipod, then can you get them to synch/play on the ipod by using MC9 to transfer?  Have you tried this by any chance?  Just a shot in the dark...

cct1,

No, haven't tried that yet, but I will when I get home from work.  I hadn't thought of that.

Thanks

crow

cct-

I figured there must be a way to tell iTunes to "sit down & shut up!" but I'm clearly overlooking something - I don't see anything that tells itunes not to open when ipod is connected except in the dialogue box that comes up upon connecting ipod with place for its name & box (which I unchecked) for auto sync at connection. And now that I've named it (but didn't register - do I need to?) the box doesn't come up when i plug ipod in.

When I look at options & preferences (Edit menu) nothing jumps out at me and nothing under Help menu seems relevant ... I'm obviously missing something since iTunes keeps coming back!

Any further guidance will be appreciated - thanks

cct-

thanks. I thought I was being careful, (having read of others' difficulties) I know that the box was unchecked each time it came up - but it kept coming back anyway. I had it co-existing w/MC9 for a while.

Hmm ... I'll work on it, uninstall, start all over and see what happens.

crowfan-

That options button on bottom right corner of iTunes was what I hadn't seen - that's the missing piece! Will file that little nugget of knowledge away in the memory bank.

Just did that & restored - now onward to reinitializing & reloading.

thanks-

Markp99,

No plans for AAC visualizations at this time.

udeups and Phil,

I think I have this fixed but I don't think it made it to today's build. It will be in tomorrow.

Crow and cct1, and bdjohns1, Kadish

This may work it 9.1.287, if not, in tomorrow's build. The problem was a mistake in the duration tag during import.


Adam and bvm,

Let me revisit this tomorrow.


Phil,

Let me check back tomorrow.


I have to run.

Steve

That's if you get it to work at all  

No playing ofmusic, no handheld plugins with 287

Looking forward to 288!  

crow

Everyone,

When MC 9.1.289 becomes available, the AAC playback on iPod should be all worked out. You will need to reimport files AAC files that are in MC back into MC. The problem was that the Duration was listed as 0 which caused the files not to play on iPod. Keep in mind that if you reimport these files you should either reinitialize iPod or at least delete these files from iPod.

In addition, I found a bug based on Adam's post regarding playlists being deleted. His example pointed towards an error when the maximum space on iPod was exceeded. For anyone who was having a problem of disappearing playlists after exceeding the maximum space on iPod, I think this should be better now.

Also, the checking for valid data is improved when synching from iPod to PC.

Phil,

The '5' error means access denied. Check the permissions on those files. The fix that is included in build 289 may also resolve the files listed on a drive that you are seeing.


Adam, bvm and Kurt,

I am not crazy about the Date Last played filter on Ratings, because one can change Ratings without playing files all the way through which is the requirement for Date Last played to modify.  With this solution users who modify ratings while not playing will have an incorrect result.  The checkbox allows the flexibility for the user to either have MC control tag info on iPod (box unchecked) or to have iPod info control Rating and Date Last played in MC (box checked).  I like the flexibility (but am on my last breath of fighting before assimilation ).

Steve


PS Can anyone tell me how you are getting the On The Go playlist to appear in iTunes?

Pls leave the checkbox for choosing whether to sync iPod data back to MC or not. The current functionality works fine for me. Maybe re-label it to make it clearer.

Hope this helps you hold your breath a little longer...

Aye, Steve,

I agree that it's not possible to leverage the already-existing "date last played" field as a test to see which rating wins in an iPod vs MC contest -- for all the reasons that you've mentioned.

I think, and Adam can correct me if I'm wrong, that we're suggesting checking the last modified date of the file in MC vs the date/time that the rating was changed on the iPod.

Of course... ratings changes don't get saved to the .mp3 on the iPod, it's appended to a separate file.  Does that file put time/date stamps on its appends?  If not, or if there's no other way to get a "date/time rating was changed on the iPod" then we could use "date/time of last synch" to use as a test instead.

.kurt the unclear (having a bad day today)

Repost from October 01, 2003:

I have a feature request associated with that:

I personally use MC at home to listen to music and rate songs, and I also use the iPOD. Right now, if I rate things on both MC and the iPOD and then sync I lose one or the other (usually the MC ratings because I want the Playcounts & Last Played to apply).   So I'd propose Ratings Optioms for synching so that you can keep get the Playcounts & Last played, PLUS keep all your ratings.

I think there should be a set of three to five options for how you want to handle ratings and iPOD Synching.  It could be another right click option similar so select artist field or in the sync options.

The ratings options should be (similar to a palm sync):
1. iPOD Overwrites MC
2. MC Overwrites iPOD
3. Highest Rating is Kept
4. Lowest Rating is Kept (Maybe)
5. Don't Transfer Ratings (Maybe)
And if your feeling ultra motivated add a feature like the palm to do an option once and then go back to your default (ie. if you normally keep your highest ratings, but this time wanted to overwrite all MC ratings with iPOD, it would do it once then revert back to highest for future syncs)

A Palm Sync Options Screenshot:


I think with those options, you could make everyone happy with the ratings.

Anyone else think it's a good idea?

Snuffy2,

Thanks for the suggestion. I do am not totally opposed but I wonder if it is necessary. We already have these options. Perhaps I should just try to make the options clearer.

1) iPod Overwrites MC (check 'Sync data to MC')
2) MC overwrites iPod (uncheck 'Sync data to MC')

"Do nothing" (regarding tags) used to be possible with the 'Update Tags' option deselected in the dialogue which would prevent Tag info from overwriting iPod. I could put this back (but Adam would be pissed   )In your example "Synchronize the files" is ambiguous. I would still need to decide which tags to use.

The "Synchronize the files" is a graphic from the Palm sync. I know it would need changes it was just a graphical example of what I was referring to.

I understand that
1) iPod Overwrites MC (check 'Sync data to MC')
2) MC overwrites iPod (uncheck 'Sync data to MC')
Exists, but the best one i think would be:
3. Highest Rating is Kept
I would use this a lot!

So I guess maybe just changing the Sync data to MC checkbox to a 3 option radio with:
1. iPOD Overwrites MC
2. MC Overwrites iPOD
3. Highest Rating is Kept
Would satisfy most users.

Possibly adding these would take care of everyone:
4. Lowest Rating is Kept (Maybe)
5. Don't Transfer Ratings (Maybe)

I know that unchecking the Update Tags (When it existed) option would have prevented the ratings from being transferred at all, BUT it would also have prevented the Last Played & Playcounts from transferring.  I can see no reason why you wouldn' t want to transfer those over. However in order to transfer those over, you need to overwrite all of your ratings on MC with those of the iPOD.  

So if you listed to 300 songs on your iPOD and rated 150 songs on MC and wanted to Sync and get the playcounts & last played from the iPOD and the ratings from MC, you couldn't do it. You could get 1 or the other. I'd like both!

If I use the time of last sync, I will know when the Rating was sent to iPod, but still do not know which one to assign when synching data to MC.

For example..

Rating on iPod is different for file AAA on iPod compared to MC. Sync time is earlier than Modification time in MC. How do I know that iPod Rating should not be chosen?

Can you tell when the rating (or anything?) was changed in MC?  If so, then if it was changed in MC since the last synch, use the rating from MC.  Sure, it's possible that the rating was changed in both places since the last synch, but if so, then you're worrying about a very low-frequency occurrence (assuming people synch relatively frequently), and besides, it's a case where you can't know what the right thing to do is (on the Palm, the software duplicates the record and tells you you need to pick which one to keep, but you don't have that option here :-)).

As for elaborate Palm-synch-like checkboxes, that's not the answer.  It might give you lots of control, but no ease of use.  I don't want to have to think hard about whether I've changed ratings on the iPod or MC (and remember that I can't do both!).  And I still always want to synch the last played and #plays data back to MC, since they're not problematic.

For a short-term solution, I'll repeat my earlier suggestion that a zero (no-stars) rating on the iPod should never overwrite the MC rating.  That would take care of 99.95% of my current objections.  Once I have much more of my library rated, then I'll need a better solution, and hopefully you'll have come up with one by then :-).

(And since iTunes must have a way to do this right, surely there must be a solution.)

Steve,

I see where you're comin' from.  I can dig that.

To tell you the truth, I'm perfectly content with 2.0.1 and 9.1.280.  And the MediaOne skin,

Same thing for me on the AAC as Crowfan--this was on a freshly restored/initialized Ipod....

Steve (and everybody else that cares)

I did the test in iTunes:

I rated a song in iTunes, gave the same song a different rating on the iPod.  Sync'd.  iTunes rating one (i.e. it was applied to the iPod).

This happened regardless of the timestamp.  Meaning, if I changed the rating on the song on the iPod after I changed the rating on the song in iTunes, iTunes still won.

So, the results are: iTunes wins when the rating is changed on the same song.

I personally think this is a good implementation...what say you folks?

RE: AAC.  I've been able to upload and play AAC (M4A) songs on the iPod no problem.  For what it's worth.  These are tunes I ripped in iTunes.

Adam

Everything works for me except the iTunes AAC files on the iPod (the ACC files do work on MC).  Is it b/c I don't hold Galactic Citizenry?  

When you guys are playing with your AAC files, do the tags appear properly in MC?

If they don't, do they appear properly in the iPod after you've synced with MC?  If yuo change the tags in MC, does the iPod choose the MC tags or the iTunes tags?

kiwi