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[jdegann]

New user here.  I want to create an Artist Sort field and have it autopopulate when I Rip a CD.  I created the field.  I went into the Library options, selected the field and got the "Tag" window.  I entered two lines:

Clean([Artist],3)  (to remove "the")
Swap([Artist])     (to put last name first.  I'll worry about distinguishing between "Bob Dylan" and "Gentle Giant" later.)

I rip a CD, but the field does not automatically populate.

I don't fully understand the whole folder thing, but under folders to watch I put both the folder that holds my FLAC files (F:\Jon Music) and the CD drive (D:\), having it look at child folders as well.  Nothing.

What's the essential thing I'm missing?

[JimH]

Welcome to the forum.  When you rip, the files are automatically imported and appear in a playlist called "Recently Ripped".

MC has an option to "ignore articles" like "the".

Take a look at the Album Artist tag.  It might work for you.

[jdegann]

I think your response is addressing something simpler than what I'm getting at.

I can rip CDs with no problem.  Many fields such as Artist get filled automatically... with no problem.  I understand what the Album Artist tag is, and it works well enough.

However, I import a Dylan CD, and the [Artist] appears as "Bob Dylan".  I'd want to see him filed under Dylan, Bob.  So I created a user defined field [Artist Sort].  Now, rather than manually enter "Dylan, Bob", I want JRiver to populate this field automatically when I rip.  Similarly, I'd like "The Stone Roses" to have the value "Stone Roses" in the [Artist Sort] field.

I *think* that the basic code needed would be the two lines I showed below:

Clean([Artist],3)  (to remove "the")
Swap([Artist])

I entered in the formula box for the [Artist Sort] field. 

Now I want the magic to happen - so when I rip those CD's these fields populate automatically based on the code.

However, there appear to be more prerequisites.  I'm looking to see if my code does what it needs to, but also what other steps need to be taken to set it up.  It seems as though all the instructions refer to the folder one is "Importing" from, but I'm not technically Importing.

[blgentry]

It looks like you are trying to create a Calculated Data field.  These are awesome.  Are you entering your expression into the Calculated Data area in the Manage Library Fields dialog?  That's where the expression needs to be.

Next, expressions don't evaluate line by line.  Instead they become one big blob of text that gets manipulated by the various functions that you enter.  Using your case as an example is probably better than me trying to spell it out.  You probably want something like this for your expression:

Code: [Select]

Swap(Clean([Artist],3))
The inner clean expression does the cleaning.  Then it's output becomes the argument to Swap(), which does your swap.

However, you bring up a good point that not all artists are going to work the same way.  If you put "The Stone Roses" into this, you're going to get "Roses, Stone", which you probably don't want.

Once you get the calculated field working, if you're interested in a solution to the problem I just described, I can type it up for your consideration.

Good luck.

Brian.

[jdegann]

Thank you.  Certainly, I see how I need to nest my functions rather than list them.  The problem though is that - these fields just aren't being created.  I will return home and see if there is some field descriptor that I may have left out, which is causing them to not be created.  It may be an easy fix - or I may need to return.

BTW, for those following - I realize that I could also use a Calculated Field.  However, this can't be edited.  So I end up with Dylan, Bob but also Roses, Stone.  So if I choose the default, at least this way I can later edit the field if it doesn't work the way intended. 

I SWEAR that iTunes does this automatically and has pretty good intelligence to determine whether names need to be swapped or not.  I don't know if they use a giant database or have some big IF formula that looks for the two hundred most common first names.  So IF (Bob or John or Jerome...) then Swap, ELSE Don't.  But I sure wish JRiver had greater functionality in this regard.

However, as a Classical music fan, I will be adding a field called "Composition", so that I can group several movements into a single "Beethoven Symphony #2", but also preserve the Album.  On iTunes, I use the Album field to group movements of a larger composition.

[blgentry]

If you're using this in an auto tagging expression, you might need an = before the expression.  I'm not 100% sure.  I personally think that this particular task is the wrong one for tag on import.  I think a calculated field would be much better.  As long as you are willing to do a tiny bit of work each time you import albums with artists that are exceptions.  Again, I can describe the process for you at some point if you are interested.

Brian.

[jdegann]

Let me see if this and other tweaks work.  Thank you.  However, you prefer Calculated Fields - with a little more work when I import.  Now I would think that the Auto Tag is what requires the extra work (when the names are reversed and shouldn't be, eg) and has to be corrected.  But I'd think that the Calculated Field is less work, but also less flexible.  What is your tweak?  I am thinking that maybe you have a flag field that you set to tell the Calculated Field whether to reverse the names or not?

[blgentry]

"The Tweak" is to have an override field.  The override field takes precedence.  You can put anything you want in the override field and that is what's used to sort.  By default it uses the calculated field to sort.  But whenever you want, you just put a value in the override field and it sorts on that instead.  It's pretty easy to set up.

Brian.

[jdegann]

For now I am back to square one with the Tag on Import using a formula.  I corrected the syntax.  I added "=" signs.  I checked the fields to see if there was any field parameter which needed changing, and found none.

So the question remains: how do I get fields with Tag on Import formulas to work? I'd like it if someone laid out all the steps because I am missing SOMETHING.

[marko]

Hopefully, I'm not adding to confusion here, but...

"Tag On Import" rules... for clarity, located at "Tools > Options > Library & Folders > Configure Auto-import"
Pick a folder, click the "Edit" button, in the bottom half "Apply these tags (optional)"...

Right?

If I'm right, these only apply to auto import.
Ripping a CD is not the same as Auto-import, Ripping a CD is "import via ripping"

To rip a CD and have auto import rules applied to it, you need to rip to the folder watched by MC, using a third party ripper. MC will then see these files for the first time, import them, applying the 'tag on import' rules.
 
Possibly a better approach... rip using MC, and apply some of Brian's workflow/tips that best fit your case.

[jdegann]

Thanks Marko.  I suspected, based on the way Tag on Import procedure is described, that these rules only apply when you use a third party ripper and import from another folder.

Which is just so stupid it seemed impossible.  Why would MC be set up to make third party rippers be more powerful than its native ripper?  Why would it not be very easy to enable these rules to work with the native ripper?

So perhaps I'll get yet another program to rip.  Seems like a needless nuisance.

I did play with the Calculated Field feature and that did work smoothly.  However, the simplistic "Swap" function does require much overriding.  For example "Elvis Costello and the Attractions" comes out as "Attractions, Elvis Costello and the"

So how do you set up the override?  My guess is that each Sort fields needs an Override field.  Then the formula says something like "If [Override] is not Null then use [Override], Else use default rules"  This is klugy - you need an Artist field, a calculated Sort Artist field, and a manual Override Sort Artist field.  Bleh - but it may be the best solution.

What I was going for was just an Artist field and an auto populated Sort Artist field - which could then be overwritten.

[blgentry]

You're pretty much going to have to make manual changes unless you can craft some really clever or really complex (and long) expression to handle how to do swaps when you want them and no swaps when you don't.  The manual override seems easiest to me; though I realize it's not perfect.  It's not as ugly as you might think.

Here's how it would work:

[Artist] :  Normal field with normal artist values in it.
[Artist Sort Calc] :  Calculated field with your expression in it that does the swap and article removal.
[Artist Sort Manual] :  This is your override field where you type (or cut and paste) your manual sort values.
[Artist Sort]:  This one automatically picks either the calculated or manual value.  An easy expression to accomplish this is:

Code: [Select]

FirstNotEmpty([Artist Sort Manual], [Artist Sort Calc])
The Bonus with this method is, it works on all of your music right now.  You don't have to wait for import.  Plus, you can change it any time you want by changing the calculated field.

From a workflow perspective, here's something that might not be obvious:  Any time you rip or import an artist that you already have, but that needs a manual override, you won't have to type anything.  All you have to do is select the Artist from any view (all files), then open the Tagging Window and click on [Artist Sort Manual].  You'll see something that says "Varies".  But when you click on it, it will give you a menu that includes the override value that's already there for all of the other files.  You just click that value and BOOM, it sets it for all of the new files too.

Yes, it's manual work, but it's not error prone and it's not too hard to do.

Good luck.

Brian.

[jdegann]

Thank you, Brian.  I will use something like this.  It seems that one could skip a step...

[Artist] :  Normal field with normal artist values in it.
[Artist Sort Manual] :  This is your override field where you type (or cut and paste) your manual sort values.
[Artist Sort] :  Calculated field with your expression in it that does the swap and article removal *and then compares to the Manual field*

FirstNotEmpty([Artist Sort Manual], Swap(Clean([Artist],1)))

[blgentry]

I think your method will work.  Give it a try and see.

I don't personally rip with MC, and I don't have any tag on import rules.  But I certainly see your point.

Good luck.

Brian.

[jdegann]

Brian, what do you use to rip?  Why do you choose it over MC?

[blgentry]

I use MC on a Mac.  MC's ripping was a little hit and miss when I first tried it a few years ago.  So I used a Mac specific program that I still use.  I haven't tried MC on Windows to do ripping.  JRiver spent a lot of money making MC's ripping method work.

I can't recommend any Windows based ripping software as I haven't used that in many many years.

Good luck.

Brian.

[dtc]

Ripping with MC works fine. I would not go to another ripping program just because of the artist sort issue. You are going to have to do the manual check anyway. No program is perfect and you always get issues like Beatles versus The Beatles.

I use basically the method Brian outlined for auto sort and it works fine. You just have to check the sort tag after each rip. It gets to be second nature.

I do use auto tagging when importing and wish it were available when ripping. I would think it would be an easy addition since the logic is already available for importing.