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[loddie]

After several days of studying threads regarding JRiver, Windows audio, and routing audio signals while trying many settings, I haven't been able to successfully import more than 8 channels via Open Live...   Given MC can handle 32 channels and all 32 channels are list in DSP Studio as a source (input) to be routed to a destination (output), it seems it should be feasible.

Here are some limitations I am running into: 

1. The only device that will work for output is Direct Sound - no ASIO device will work, regardless of settings, number of channels in DSP, etc.
2. I can input up to 8 channels via Open Live... using the MOTU Audio ASIO driver. However, only up to 8 channels in DSP studio (7.1 setting) will work. So inputing 8 channels with 32 channels in DSP studio does not seem possible. It is just 8 in and 8 out (or less).

This is the setup:

Input: 13 channels analog
Output: 32 channels analog (for 3-way crossovers + subs)
Soundcard: (quantity: 4) MOTU Travelers (duplex) with MOTU Audio ASIO multiclient driver. Note: The MOTU ASIO driver should present the 4 MOTU Travelers to JRiver as one aggregate soundcard, not four devices.
Software: JRiver for volume protection, zones, routing (via Plogue Bidule) and hosting VSTs
Software: AcourateConvolver for hosting DRC filters, volume control
Sample Rate: all set to 48kHz

1. How many channels can Open Live... simultaneously input?
2. As anyone successfully imported more than 8 channels?  If so, were all 32 channels available in DSP Studio?
3. Is there any way to route input signals? My fear is if everything else works, the channel offset in Open Live... will only work for the first MOTU traveler, but not the other three as there will be digital inputs between the sets of analog inputs.

This may take a while to get setup, but I'm willing to make an effort and learn. If I can get this running, I hope the info here will become a reference for others trying to accomplish similar setups.

[mattkhan]

1. The only device that will work for output is Direct Sound - no ASIO device will work, regardless of settings, number of channels in DSP, etc.

IME this means the ASIO driver is not multi client capable, using https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=48 can help though as you note later the recent motu drivers are multi client capable so it shouldn't be required.

2. I can input up to 8 channels via Open Live... using the MOTU Audio ASIO driver. However, only up to 8 channels in DSP studio (7.1 setting) will work. So inputing 8 channels with 32 channels in DSP studio does not seem possible. It is just 8 in and 8 out (or less).

I haven't seen this problem either. What error do you get? This might be linked to point 1 though, i.e. if your actual output device is limited to 8 channels then it won't let you start playback with more than 8 channels.

1. How many channels can Open Live... simultaneously input?
2. As anyone successfully imported more than 8 channels?  If so, were all 32 channels available in DSP Studio?

IIRC the limit is 32 and yes

3. Is there any way to route input signals? My fear is if everything else works, the channel offset in Open Live... will only work for the first MOTU traveler, but not the other three as there will be digital inputs between the sets of analog inputs.

what do you mean by route exactly?

Note: The MOTU ASIO driver should present the 4 MOTU Travelers to JRiver as one aggregate soundcard, not four devices.

I don't follow. Your stated signal chain is jriver -> acourate -> motu so jriver should be addressing the acourate asio client not the motu (which acourate convolver will be outputting to).

I recommend you take this step by step. For example

- prove jriver can send 32 channels to motu directly
- add acourate and show that 32 channels still works
- add live input

Adding one thing at a time is important to show where problems come in (as one unknown in this is acourate asio).

[loddie]

Hi Matt,

IME this means the ASIO driver is not multi client capable

Very likely. I will check with MOTU. I'm using the most recent drivers.  Thank-you for that multiclient driver link. I'm curious if it will work while aggregating four MOTUs. In other words, is it possible to aggragate and be multiclient simultaneously?  It seems it should as it is described as a ASIO wrapper, similar to ASIO4ALL. Just thinking ahead, if these driver and wrapper solutions don't work, it seems JACK server may be the best solution?

I can input up to 8 channels via Open Live..

Solved! The solution was simple! Just power on all four MOTUs at the same time. The first time multiple MOTUs are powered up, it's software memorizes the order. So if you don't power them up sequentially by physical location or rearrange the physical order, the software doesn't know.  So I was trying to simplify and started with just one Traveler. Then I powered up what I though was the second Traveler, but they must be in the wrong physical order. So I powered the wrong one up. Today, with all four powered, I can get 32 channels of input.    User error again. 

what do you mean by route exactly?

Perhaps "route" is the wrong word.  Maybe mapping is better.  And perhaps I am making this more complicated than it really is. It seems most sound cards have analog input and outputs ordered in sequential blocks.  So in JRiver, using the "offset" simply helps you find where the block starts. But if you add multiple sound cards, don't you also need multiple offsets such as this?:

......Traveler 1............Traveler 2.........Traveler 3............Traveler 4........
offset..analog ins..offset..analog ins..offset..analog ins..offset..analog ins..

It would seem 4 offets would be needed, one for each Traveler. The 2nd, 3rd, 4th offsets being used to skip the digital I/O channels. If so, I don't see how the physical channels can be mapped to the virtual channels in JRiver as there is only one offset. But perhaps I'm understanding the "offset" wrong.  This is why I wish MC had a visually mapping of inputs with virtual draggable "cables" similar to KXStudio Catia (for JACK), Plogues Bidule, Console, and many other hosts/DAWs.

AcourateConvolver is seeing 56 channels - each motu with 14 channels (there also digital channels, not just the analog). It is easy to map channels in AcourateConvolver. If the MOTU ASIO driver shows the same 56 channels to JRiver, how do I extract (map?, route?) just the 15 analog input channels I want to use of the available 56?  In DSP Studio, I can only see 32 "source" (input) channels. I'm pretty sure several of the the analog inputs on Traveler #4 and perhaps #3 will come after the 32, (somewhere between channel 33-56). But again, I may not be unstanding how JRiver "sees" via Open Live...

I don't follow. Your stated signal chain is jriver -> acourate -> motu so jriver should be addressing the acourate asio client not the motu (which acourate convolver will be outputting to).

Sorry I wasn't clear.  I was referring to the input side. Doesn't JRiver MC need to communicate with the MOTU ASIO driver to for the 13 channels of input?  Then AcourateConvolver would communicate with the same MOTU driver for output. So for this to work, the MOTU drivers would have to be multiclient and JRiver would have to be multiclient using a different driver for input (MOTU ASIO or perhaps WASAPI) and for output (AcourateASIO).  I'm not sure if JRiver can do this.

I recommend you take this step by step.

Agreed! 16in and 32 out is the end goal. But many steps to get there. And thank-you for your guidance!  I was hoping you would chime in as you have been very helpful and a valuble resource in this forum.

[loddie]

Here's an attempt to visually represent the sound path. Not sure if it is correct or possible, though.

[kr4]

Here's an attempt to visually represent the sound path. Not sure if it is correct or possible, though.

Mebbe the system is confused by seeing 2 different MOTU Traveller #3s.   

[loddie]

Mebbe the system is confused by seeing 2 different MOTU Traveller #3s.   

Possibly. Although that shouldn't be the case. Although dated, this article is a great reference for multiple audio devices: https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/using-multiple-audio-interfaces-together. It states, as does the MOTU Traveler user manual (Windows version):

"Similarly, you can daisy-chain up to four 828MkII, 896HD or [MOTU] Traveler Firewire interfaces for more I/O channels."

In other words, even though there are four physical devices, the MOTU ASIO driver makes them appear as one. Thus, JRiver should only know of one MOTU Traveler.

[loddie]

- prove jriver can send 32 channels to motu directly

Matt, the reason I didn't start with this step is the comments in this thread: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,101122.msg719517.html#msg719517

While most audio software can only work with one ASIO driver at time, it seems JRiver MC can only work with different ASIO drivers for simultaneous input/output. If I wanted to use a DAW with AcourateConvolver, it would probably be a problem, but fortunately it works to my benefit in this scenario.

So far I have setup AcourateConvolver with 32 channels/filters and JRiver and AcourateConvolver seem to both be communicating with the Travelers 32 inputs in JRiver and 32 outputs in AcourateConvolver.

What I can't figure out is to understand how to map the analog inputs in JRiver. See previous comments on offset(s).

[loddie]

I forgot the MOTU Travelers have 8 analog inputs each, I thought they only had four. And I think they are channels 1-8. So no offset is needed, channels 1-8, then skip the next six channels, then use 15-21 for the last 7 channels to get 15 total. I can see 32 inputs and outputs in Plogue Bidule, so for now I will map them straight through and begin testing for sound.

[JimH]

They may be 0 to 7, not 1 to 8.  The manual should say.

[Spike1000]

This looks (well is) a complex MC setup that shows off the power of MC. Maybe there should be a featured systems webpage/sticky post or something where JR publish articles (with pictures and interviews) of how people are using MC. That surely would get people's creative juices flowing so they can try new things as well as showing off the capabilities of MC.

How a about a Hi-Fi (Home Theatre?) magazine article/interview with Jim and/or one of the developers? I don't think I've ever seen one of those on MC.

Spike

[mattkhan]

I'm curious if it will work while aggregating four MOTUs. In other words, is it possible to aggragate and be multiclient simultaneously?  It seems it should as it is described as a ASIO wrapper, similar to ASIO4ALL. Just thinking ahead, if these driver and wrapper solutions don't work, it seems JACK server may be the best solution?

These are 2 different things.

Multiclient refers to 2 or more separate things accessing the asio driver concurrently, this could be jriver starting an asio session to accept an input stream at the same time as starting an asio driver session to play the output.

It's then up to the motu driver to present a single device that is capable of x (32 or whatever) channel output. I suppose it would be possible to create an aggregate device in software (albeit still reliant on hardware clock synchronization) without the driver itself doing it though I haven't come across something on windows that does this.

Perhaps "route" is the wrong word.  Maybe mapping is better.  And perhaps I am making this more complicated than it really is. It seems most sound cards have analog input and outputs ordered in sequential blocks.  So in JRiver, using the "offset" simply helps you find where the block starts. But if you add multiple sound cards, don't you also need multiple offsets such as this?:

......Traveler 1............Traveler 2.........Traveler 3............Traveler 4........
offset..analog ins..offset..analog ins..offset..analog ins..offset..analog ins..

It would seem 4 offets would be needed, one for each Traveler. The 2nd, 3rd, 4th offsets being used to skip the digital I/O channels. If so, I don't see how the physical channels can be mapped to the virtual channels in JRiver as there is only one offset. But perhaps I'm understanding the "offset" wrong.  This is why I wish MC had a visually mapping of inputs with virtual draggable "cables" similar to KXStudio Catia (for JACK), Plogues Bidule, Console, and many other hosts/DAWs.

see above re this being the job of the driver to present a contiguous set of channels for jriver to use. Pro audio drivers (full featured ones anyway) come with some sort of mixer so it is common to handle complex routing on that side. Does the traveler offer a mixer?

AcourateConvolver is seeing 56 channels - each motu with 14 channels (there also digital channels, not just the analog). It is easy to map channels in AcourateConvolver. If the MOTU ASIO driver shows the same 56 channels to JRiver, how do I extract (map?, route?) just the 15 analog input channels I want to use of the available 56?  In DSP Studio, I can only see 32 "source" (input) channels. I'm pretty sure several of the the analog inputs on Traveler #4 and perhaps #3 will come after the 32, (somewhere between channel 33-56). But again, I may not be unstanding how JRiver "sees" via Open Live...

the driver will present 56 channels as channels 0-55 but it's up to you to work out what they are. If you choose offset 0 then jriver sees channels 0-31, if you choose offset 5 then jriver sees 5-36 and so on. If I look at my motu then they're listed in named groups (though you can rename them) but really it is just a channel list. One easy way to work this out is to send a sine wave down a single channel and see where it ends up (use the null output and just look at dsp studio with everything turned off).

Sorry I wasn't clear.  I was referring to the input side. Doesn't JRiver MC need to communicate with the MOTU ASIO driver to for the 13 channels of input?  Then AcourateConvolver would communicate with the same MOTU driver for output. So for this to work, the MOTU drivers would have to be multiclient and JRiver would have to be multiclient using a different driver for input (MOTU ASIO or perhaps WASAPI) and for output (AcourateASIO).  I'm not sure if JRiver can do this.

yes that it is correct, you do have 2 things talking to the same driver so it does need to be multiclient. If it is not then try the steinberg client. JRiver can certainly do this.

[loddie]

Unfortunately, the Traveler (MK1) CueMix FX software doesn't seem to allow internal mixing except for sending audio to ADAT. I think around the MK3 Traveler the Cuemix was updated and may offer that function, but the Traveler MK1 doesn't seem to be compatible. It actually doesn't seem to be a big deal as I thought this would needlessly strain the computer processors, but the MOTU processors are doing most of the work. JRiver is only about 1% CPU with 32in and 32 out. That will change when I add VSTs, but AcourateConvolver and the OS are hogging the CPUs.

Good news! I have routed one channel and it works with 32 in, 32 out!  Unbelievable. I tried this a year or two ago without AcourateConvolver in the loop and was unsuccessful. It is fairly stable. No clicks and pops (unlike Soundflower on OS X). After about 30 minutes AcourateConvolver crashes, but that is most likely and I don't have enough processing power as the CPUs are working hard (this is a Mac Pro 1.1 with only 2 processors & 4GB RAM!).  I just bought an 8 core machine so will begin to learn how to optimize the OS and install everything on that.  Then I can start making sawdust.  I wanted to prove the software could handle everything before making more speakers.

Here is the path (just for testing):  Mac>Airplay>Pioneer SC-95>MOTU Travelers>JRiver Open Live...>DSP Studio [Plogue Bidule]>AcourateConvolver>Amps>Speakers

FWIW, AcourateConvolver seems to require a filter to send audio through, so this test includes 32 filters (65K) running simultaneously.

Matt - Thanks for the tip on channel offsets!  If forgot the first channel is 0, not 1. I've created a spreadsheet to make sense of it all as this is a lot of interconnects and wires!

[loddie]

This looks (well is) a complex MC setup that shows off the power of MC. Maybe there should be a featured systems webpage/sticky post or something where JR publish articles (with pictures and interviews) of how people are using MC. That surely would get people's creative juices flowing so they can try new things as well as showing off the capabilities of MC.

How a about a Hi-Fi (Home Theatre?) magazine article/interview with Jim and/or one of the developers? I don't think I've ever seen one of those on MC.

Spike

Nice idea!  It certainly would have been helpful for me trying to set this up. I probably spent a couple hundred hours reading threads and articles trying to make sense of it all. The software applications themselves aren't too bad, it is more trying to understand how audio can be routed in Windows, the different drivers, etc. Once the speakers and PC are all done, I do a more detailed write up for those that want to try something similar.