Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[sirkus]

I have read some threads concerning HDR but, I can't figure exactly the interaction between the various settings in Windows and MC.

My custom settings:
Windows: HDR active (I like it and it's cool for games)
Nvidia: RVB / 0-255 / 12 bit / Colors managed by Nvidia (custom gamma, overrides apps settings)
MC: Red October HQ, Best Quality
Madvr: 0-255 / 10 bit (or higher) / calibrated BT.2020 / gamma 2.4 / passthrough HDR / send HDR metadata to the display

All other settings are by default. Here are my questions when playing a movie in MC:
1. Does MC bypass the Windows HDR management when there are HDR metadata?
2. Does MC let Windows manage HDR when there are no HDR metadata?
3. Who controls the gamma between Nvidia and Madvr? My projector is calibrated for Windows with Nvidia settings.
4. Why you can select to send or not HDR metadata in Madvr? Passthourgh isn't really passthrough?

I have noticed that when activating and de-activating HDR in Windows, it causes HDR management instability in MC. MC seems to switch to HDR only when it has some interface element displayed in full screen (right click menu or tittle top menu). And I have to reboot to find a stable situation.

[tij]

i have Nvidia 1070 ... i only use RO HQ ... so cannot comment on other modes ... this mode use MadVR as video renderer

lots of information is given in MadVR OSD if you press Ctr+J when video is playing

if turn on HDR in Windows ... MadVR will use that ... i dont use this cause it makes SDR content look dull for some reason ... and i cannot be bothered to fix it (i suspect my MadVR outputs SDR is in Rec709 or Rec601 ... and windows expects bt2020 ... kinda explains why it looks dull)

if turn off HDR in Windows ... MadVR uses NVidia HDR ... only drawback for that - if you show play control during playback, video will be outputed in SDR ... but thats nit problem for me as i never use that

so for MadVR:

1. if MadVR detects HDR ... it will do what you tell it to:
a. it can passthrough HDR metadata to OS (if HDR setting is on in Winsows control panel) or to Nvidia (if HDR setting is off in Windows control panel) ... in both cases OS and NVidia just pass HDR metadata to TV to handle it
b. it can convert HDR to SDR ... dont be fooled by thinking its bad just because name contains “SDR” ... what it really means - it converts HDR to capability of your TV (what essentially TV is doing when it receives HDR metadata ... aka tone mapping as none of current TV can display full color and brightness of HDR) ... you specify maximum brightness your TV is capable and MadVR tone maps to that
as TV does not do tone mapping (as it does not receive HDR metadata) it will not kick in HDR mode ... but tone mapping is already done by MadVR ... advantage of this mode is - you have control over HDR tone mapping process ... as opposed to just letting TV handke it (kinda like letting MadVR do upscaling rather than let TV handle it)

2. if there is no HDR metadata in video ... then its SDR video ... no need to handle any HDR

3. depends on setting ... madVR has calibration settings which among other things include gamma ... if you also specify something in Nvidia control pannel, that will be applied too (which you dont want) ... so if using madVR ... in NVidia panel specify “video player setting”, essentially telling NVidea that player will handle this

4. see 1b

[mattkhan]

what display are you using? generally speaking best results will be achieved with the beta build of madvr and using its dynamic tone mapping. See https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector.html for details (current build is b110).

this won't work for games mind you

[JimH]

what display are you using? generally speaking best results will be achieved with the beta build of madvr and using its dynamic tone mapping. See https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector.html for details (current build is b110).

JRiver recommends that you use the madVR version that comes with it.  Use of a newer version might work, but might cause problems.  You could read more about your options on the Red October thread on our wiki.

[sirkus]

if turn on HDR in Windows ... MadVR will use that ... i dont use this cause it makes SDR content look dull for some reason

That's what happen to me:

I have noticed that when activating and de-activating HDR in Windows, it causes HDR management instability in MC. MC seems to switch to HDR only when it has some interface element displayed in full screen (right click menu or tittle top menu). And I have to reboot to find a stable situation.

a. it can passthrough HDR metadata to OS (if HDR setting is on in Winsows control panel) or to Nvidia (if HDR setting is off in Windows control panel) ... in both cases OS and NVidia just pass HDR metadata to TV to handle it

IMOO, it shouldn't do that. If you select "passthrough HDR" and "send HDR metadata to the display", madVR should pass to Nvidia and bypass OS HDR settings.

2. if there is no HDR metadata in video ... then its SDR video ... no need to handle any HDR

IMOO, madVR should pass to OS HDR settings which will pass to Nvidia. That's what seems to happen when you play a video in a Windows player (browser or anything else).

3. depends on setting ... madVR has calibration settings which among other things include gamma ... if you also specify something in Nvidia control pannel, that will be applied too (which you dont want) ... so if using madVR ... in NVidia panel specify “video player setting”, essentially telling NVidea that player will handle this

OK, clear. Then "disable calibration settings for this display" in my case.

what display are you using? generally speaking best results will be achieved with the beta build of madvr and using its dynamic tone mapping.
this won't work for games mind you

The projector is a laser Acer VL7860. While madVR tone mapping sounds interesting (I didn't know that), my calibration is done for Windows and HDR and for now, I don't want to manage multiple color configurations (one for OS and one for madVR). I'm satisfied as is, when I disable OS HDR and let MC manage HDR content (madVR HDR passthrough). The only thing I would like, is that MC could manage in a more subtle way when OS HDR is enabled. And that there will be no need to switch on/off OS HDR settings (there is a bug somewhere between OS and MC that makes the HDR management unstable after switching).

[sirkus]

Maybe I have a partial explanation.. When a PC game doesn't support native HDR, Windows HDR doesn't work in full screen. You have to be in windowed mode to apply Windows HDR. The same thing could happen here.
How can I switch from "true" full screen mode to "windowed" full screen mode in MC?

[mattkhan]

JRiver recommends that you use the madVR version that comes with it.  Use of a newer version might work, but might cause problems.  You could read more about your options on the Red October thread on our wiki.

it's understandable that you ship a stable version but for a user who cares about HDR, the beta build offers a dramatic improvement. It is stable but definitely not a plug and play solution from a config point of view.

[sirkus]

Indeed, don't take it bad but, with all this UHD HDR hype, I'm a little surprised that MC doesn't integrate it a little bit clearer and better.

[tij]

you have to understand HDR a bit in order to know how it works. HDR improves on previous SDR in 2 ways
1. increase peak brightness from 100-300nits to 10000nits (mainly to highlights bright areas like explosion or sky … most pictures will remain in 100-300nits range)
2. increase color space from rec709 to bt2020 (not much increase in blue, but large increase in red and green … simply grass can be greener in HDR)

none of current display come even close to be able to display full HDR brightness and color (Sony show 10000nit TV but not so sure it can handle full colorspace especially at peak brightness)

so you need to map portion of what TV cannot display into what it can (usually involves compressing color/brightness of image into range that TV can display) … this is tone mapping … and obviously there will be sacrifices … if want to show explosion as red as possible, then brightness is sacrificed and loose details of explosion … if want to show explosion as bright as possible, then gain details of explosion but it will be not as red

now if you "passthrough" HDR meta … it simply mean your PC is doing nothing about HDR and just passing HDR meta to TV … TV then shows HDR logo to indicate it is receiving HDR metadata AND doing tone mapping

So, it does not matter who passes HDR metadata … OS or Nvidia … result is same - PC does nothing and TV does tone mapping

With OS HDR you just have extra burden to switch it off when want to play SDR content

IMOO, it shouldn't do that. If you select "passthrough HDR" and "send HDR metadata to the display", madVR should pass to Nvidia and bypass OS HDR settings.

IMOO, madVR should pass to OS HDR settings which will pass to Nvidia. That's what seems to happen when you play a video in a Windows player (browser or anything else).

you are confusing yourself … in once instance you want to bypass OS HDR … in other instance you want OS to handle HDR

note what Windows setting says - [Play HDR games and apps] … so it is not meant to be used with SDR applications/videos

as I mention before … for video watching … it is best practice to leave Windows HDR off … and let MadVR switch HDR when needed

PS. there is no way in my understanding to play SDR movies in HDR mode (not from PC anyway) ... what ppl usually do is calibrate TV separately for SDR mode and HDR mode (there are test patterns for both ... and TV have separate calibration for both mode)

you need to calibrate to different color spaces anyway ... rec709 for SDR and bt2020 or p3 for HDR (theoretically to play SDR in HDR mode you need to convert rec709 to bt2020 ... madVR dont do that and i dont think anything on PC can at the moment)

PSS. 3D mode also needs to be separately calibrated if yoyr TV suppot it

[sirkus]

I admit HDR is confusing, especially on projectors but, from what I understand... Here are the facts and what I see.

First, my projector don't switch to HDR input if HDR is not set in Windows OR a full screen app doesn't make it to switch (which MC does, but the interaction with Windows HDR is not clear or bugged). If none of the above, the projector stays in MHL input. I have read that only native HDR game are able to switch to HDR in full screen. I suspect that this is a feature of the full screen mode of Windows for any app.

Second, when HDR is enabled in Windows, it's clear that the picture "looks" HDR. No matter if it's the desktop or a Youtube video, the projector switches alone to HDR. If not, it says in MHL.

Third, I have configured myself my projector with a probe and a calibration software after reading on various forums. The first thing you have to set is the 100% white... to white. RGB all at the same level. This give you the maximum luminance. The HDR "effect" depends at which level of white you clip the gamma curve. In my case 80% white. The maximum luminance is reached at 80% white (and not 100% as a straight gamma curve). The result is a "S" gamma curve. The probe reads the correct levels of RGB for each level of white. Indeed, enabling "Dynamic Black" on my projector adds luminance by pushing the blue. But, the HDR effect works very well without boosting the blue. I don't say that I fully understand how it works technically but, visually I see clearly the difference when HDR is enabled in Windows or not.

So, it does not matter who passes HDR metadata … OS or Nvidia … result is same - PC does nothing and TV does tone mapping

That's what is not clear for me. In a movie the metadata are set by the producer. In Windows there should be some generic interpolation. As I said, switching Windows to HDR, switches my projector to HDR and the differrence is clearly visible. So what happen to native HDR? That's my question.

you are confusing yourself … in once instance you want to bypass OS HDR … in other instance you want OS to handle HDR

Yes, I don't want to switch manually in Windows and as I said, switching introduces bug in MC. If MC supports "windowed" full screen (like my games) it could let Windows handling HDR and in "real" full screen mode MC handles itself the HDR. Why when the play menu or the right click menu is displayed in fully screen mode and HDR is enabled in Windows,  MC switches to HDR (which was clearly not the case before)? Because MC leaves full screen mode and Windows HDR take the lead?

The only answer I see on this forum is to disable Windows HDR and let MC do the job. Why? No answer? I would like to choose my self and do the comparison. If I disable Windows HDR my desktop looks crappy (and MC HDR in full screen works but, not very stable). If I enable Windows HDR, MC doesn't switch to HDR in full screen mode (and seems to use Windows HDR in windowed mode). These are the facts.

Ideally, for me, HDR should be always on in Windows and MC should take the control in full screen mode as it does now when HDR is disabled in Windows. Is it possible?

EDIT: I have noticed that the Windows slider that configure the amount of HDR in Windows preferences changes the clipping value of the "S" curve. From straight curve to "S" curve.

[tij]

HDR is confusing indeed … simply put whole screen can either be HDR or SDR … you cannot have part of screen HDR and another part in SDR (for example whole desktop is HDR and IE window playing SDR content in SDR)

Same as progressive and interlaced ... its either one or the other … cannot have part of screen progressive and another part interlaced

This problem only presents itself for PC … as there are many windows open some of which with SDR content … some of which in HDR content

There is no way for application to know when its appropriate for them to switch to HDR/SDR … imagine you working in Photoshop (SDR), then you open HDR clip in Chrome browser … Chrome has no idea if its appropriate to switch to HDR mode (if it does, it will screw colors in Photoshop) … so it does what's best without disturbing other apps - it converts HDR clip to SDR

Only apps working in full screen (whether windowed or exclusive) can determine when can switch to HDR/SDR … and that's up to developers to enable this feature … which MadVR does

Now to your specific problem … as I understand it - if you put OS HDR off … MadVR is unable to switch your projector to HDR mode when playing HDR content? … can you tell which Nvidia GPU you have and its driver version … can you also attached screenshot of your MadVR setting - specifically under [devices]->["your projector"]->[hdr]

Also … I am pretty sure you must calibrate your projector separately for HDR and SDR content … they use different color spaces (rec709 and bt2020) … UNLESS you do tone mapping in PC

As I mention before its possible with MadVR to do tone mapping HDR->SDR … so your whole system can run in SDR … SDR content then display as SDR … and HDR content gets tone map to SDR by MadVR

Again as I mention before, there is nothing on PC that can tone map SDR->HDR … so if your whole system run in HDR … your SDR content will look washed down

[sirkus]

Please, check this https://www.pcworld.com/article/3269591/windows-10-april-2018-update-hdr-settings.html

Microsoft’s big Windows 10 April 2018 Update adds a new option in the form of a “Change brightness for SDR content” slider that doesn’t affect HDR content.
...
if you aren’t a color snob, you can actually use your PC if you leave HDR active now
...
The April 2018 Update makes huge strides forward, though, and the new SDR brightness setting means you can finally multitask while watching HDR videos

This is w/o calibration. In my case, with a dedicated calibration, things look pretty good. Enough to let it always on. That's why I try to understand why the only answer is to disable HDR in Windows for MC.

[sirkus]

Now to answer your question...

Now to your specific problem … as I understand it - if you put OS HDR off … MadVR is unable to switch your projector to HDR mode when playing HDR content? … can you tell which Nvidia GPU you have and its driver version … can you also attached screenshot of your MadVR setting - specifically under [devices]->["your projector"]->[hdr]

Finally, I have found the issue that doesn't enable HDR in MC when OS HDR is off. I was on Custom Video Settings -> Start with -> Red October HQ -> apply the following rules -> ffdshow -> LAV Video Decoder. I use it for SmoothVideo Project (SVP). Does it mean that it will not work anymore (at least with OS HDR off)?

And when OS HDR is on, I have seen it to work a few times but, I can't reproduce it. With the same settings it doesn't work anymore.

I am on Nvidia 2070 RTX, latest driver.

In madVR I have tried "let madVR decide", "passthrough HDR content to the display" w/ and w/o send HDR metadata to the display.

[tij]

what you want ... i dont mind having too ... leave things in HDR ... where HDR movies work and SDR movies work too

but that will require something to convert SDR colorspace to HDR colorspace ... ideally Windows should handle it ... but as of now it does not ... it offeres some slider to adjust SDR to be barely acceptable

carefully read article you refer to ... it clearly said that SDR colors are still off ... usable compared to what was offered before - yes ... acceptable for applucations where color matters (video, photoshop, etc) - no

you cannot convert SDR colorspace to HDR by simply adjusting brightness and saturations ... i wish it was that simple too

now ... it might be possible (though i highly diubt it) to calibrate your display so whatever garbage Windows outputting for SDR is map to correct SDR values (probably what you were trying to do) ... but then you will screw up HDR content (it will look garbage)

I wish i can tell you different thing as it also benefits me ... but atm to enjoy movies in correct colors ... you need to run SDR content in SDR mode and HDR content in HDR mide (both modes separately calibrated) ... madVR offers auto switching between these modes which works nicely

alternatevely, can run everything in SDR and fir HDR content use madVR to do tone mapping

[tij]

now i remember ... the thing that converts SDR to HDR ... it was Sim2 dual projector setup for HDR ... ppl who saw it says it is next best thing after Christi :-Xe Dolby Vision projector

that Sim2 converted SDR to HDR on fly ... and ppl say with spectacular results

but it cost small fortune and does not do 4k

[sirkus]

Thanks for the details, it confirms something I was suspecting with the colors , it's my first HDR display and calibration, but... it was not exactly my question.

I own Calman and Calman client which are able to control my projector through DDC (I didn't know that) and madVR (I didn't know that, too). In theory, from what I understand I can change calibration profiles more-or-less on the fly. I don't know if it works as expected.

I have just asked if MC could possibly support the management when OS HDR is "on" in Windows. It's now a standard Windows settings. Let the user choose. Maybe I don't need it. It's a Windows feature at the end, I will see what I do with it. It's boring to play with on/off manually in Windows settings and I have got a satisfactory balance for daily use (for pure movies, we will see). As it was said previously, I don't say that we can't do all in madVR, I just would like something more clear and user friendly. If it was simply supported, I wouldn't have to spent my time explaining my problems But anyway, thanks for the explanations.

[tij]

well ... MC does not directly control HDR setting ... it does it through madVR

so if madVR support what you want ... MC will ... so asking madVR forums will likely get you more results than asking here ... madshi is pretty busy now though between his Envy and trying to perfect HDR tone mapping

mattkhan provided link to avs forum ... thats were madshi is most active now ... you can ask ppl there to help you setup projector for best hdr experience

[eddyshere]

(...)
as I mention before … for video watching … it is best practice to leave Windows HDR off … and let MadVR switch HDR when needed
(...)

It obviously works perfectly for me the only problem i have is that when i watch a hdr movie my lg OLED switches in hdr mode BUT when i stop and return to theaterview my display stays in HDR mode making theaterview look horrible until I play a non-hdr file.

Am I missing something ... should it not revert to SDR for theaterview ??

[Hendrik]

Are you using "Back" or "Stop" to return from your movie to Theater View?
If you only press Back, the movie only gets paused, as such madVR is still on. If you press Stop, madVR would be shut down, and hopefully return your system to SDR mode.

[tij]

By the way ... MadVR HDR tone mapping (even one supplied with MC) is WAAAAY superior to LG tone mapping (at least on my E6 with latest update).

LG tone mapping on my LG changes hue/color in certain vey bright scenes ... madshi is very specific in his tone mapping algorithms not to change hue

If you have Harry Potter Deathly Hallow Part 2 ... look at train station scene ... light is very bright there and suppose to have reddish highlights ... my LG E6 changes hue of that to greenish/yellowish while attempting to reduce its brightness within limits it can display

[eddyshere]

@hendrik : you're right. pressing back has the state enabled (which is logic....silly me)...pressing stop switches back to SDR.

@tij : THANKS !!!! that's exactly what was driving me nuts (the greenish tone!!) and i was searching endlessly why this is so. what is funny though is that i have even some DVD which are sdr which have a greenish halo

BTW do you know where Madvr saves the key shortcuts ?? my madvr is completely "programed" with keyboardshortcuts for my automation system so if I switch over to beta Madvr I'll lose that.

[tij]

Don't need to go beta with MadVR

current build 0.92.16 installed with MC28 is good … for HDR just put [convert HDR to SDR by using pixel shader math] … in target nits for LG OLED can put between 600-800