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[MediaMongrel]

Hello. 

I just bought a brand new laptop specifically because I am starting to add 4k HDR movies to my movie collection (now that I have a new 4K tv).  My previous laptop was fine, using JRiver to manage/play my 1080p movie collection... but didn't have either the horsepower or I/Os that are necessary for UHD HDR.

My new setup is:
JRiver 26 & Windows 10
laptop w 11/th gen Intel i7-1165G7 (Iris Xe graphics), 16gb RAM, and DisplayPort 1.4,
Startech DP-to-HDMI adapter (capable of 4k HDR @ 30Hz),
certified premium HDMI 2 cable, and
LG CX tv (w/ HDMI 2.1).

I set Windows HDR turned on, and I'm outputting 2160p @ 30Hz to an external monitor/tv (also tried other Hzs... anything above 30Hz lowers colour to 8bit, but anything 30Hz or less, 10bit colour).  I set MadVR in JRiver to Red October HQ... and have spent the equivalent of 4 full working days playing with settings and testing results.  Whether outputting at 8bit or 10bit, RGB at 0-255 or 16-235, HDR - let madVR decide  or passthrough to display, and more!  And my tv's HDMI port is set to 'PC', with all extra image processing features turned off.

Earlier on, I was struggling with judder.  I updated both Intel and Lenovo drivers, and eventually I was able to play my 4k HDR videos (mkv, etc) smoothly.  However, then I started noticing terrible banding (not certain if it was there before the driver updates).  No setting in madVR, whether applying banding filters or not, got rid of the banding.  It did see a noticeable improvement when I started outputting to 8bit, rather than 10bit... but that didn't entirely eliminate the banding.

So I then played the exact same videos in VLC... no banding, perfectly smooth frame rate.
And then i played the videos in Cyberlink PowerDVD... again, no banding, and smooth frame rate.
I checked on my tv, and confirmed i was getting a 10bit signal.

But both of these softwares cannot compare to JRiver as a library manager... i don't want to leave JRiver, for my one stop movie collection hub. Why can't I get the same perfect image quality in JRiver, as I can with VLC & PowerDVD?  I spent sooooo much time, trial and error, checking and unchecking various madVR settings, thinking SOMETHING must work!    Honestly, I had given up... it's only because I can't find anything else that's so easy to navigate through a collection, with tags, that I'm coming back to JRiver and asking for help.  Anyone?   :/

[zybex]

Is VLC also using MadVR and LAV filters?

MC uses a separate config for MadVR and LAV, distinct from the system configuration that VLC and others use. You can play something in VLC and then open the settings (from the tray icons) to compare them with the settings in MC.

You can also do what I do: in MC, go to File Types and set video files (AVI, MKV, MP4, etc) to play on "External Program (default)". This way when you start something on MC the default player for that extension is launched. I use MPC-HC with dark skin as my default player, starting in fullscreen, with MadVR and LAV filters installed via the KLite Codec pack.

[Awesome Donkey]

Is VLC also using MadVR and LAV filters?

VLC doesn't/can't use either one. It uses its own filters as far as I know.

[zybex]

Doh, you're right.

[MediaMongrel]

MC uses a separate config for MadVR and LAV.

You can also do what I do: in MC, go to File Types and set video files (AVI, MKV, MP4, etc) to play on "External Program (default)". This way when you start something on MC the default player for that extension is launched. I use MPC-HC with dark skin as my default player, starting in fullscreen, with MadVR and LAV filters installed via the KLite Codec pack.

Haven't heard of LAV before. 
I tried your suggestion, regarding 'External Program (default)', so that VLC would open and play the selected video.  While that does allow me to browse my movie collection in JRiver, and play the video on VLC... it seems far from optimal - especially when using an IR remote, which I do.

You click on the movie in JRiver, then VLC will start up and appear ontop of JRiver, and start playing the movie.  Let's say, you changed your mind and want to play a different video.  If you pause or stop the movie in VLC, then click a media button on the remote control to take you back to JRiver to see your library... ok, that works... but if I then maneuver to another video and press play (in JRiver)... the 2nd video WILL begin playing in VLC, but you cannot view it, because VLC was already open but hidden behind JRiver, so that's where it is now playing - out of site, behind JRiver.  I need to put the remote control down, walk over to my laptop, and use the mouse to click on the VLC player so that it will again be ontop of JRiver.  (sigh)   You see... the FIRST time you click a video, VLC wasn't previously open... so it pops up ontop of everything.  But the SECOND time you click a video, VLC just starts playing it, wherever VLC already was (hidden behind JRiver).

Also, VLC seems to like to assume the default audio device is my TV, even though I keep resetting it to be my USB connection to my pre-amp.  So every time I play a video in VLC... i gotta put my remote down, go over to the laptop, and click my preferred audio device, again.  (sigh)

But ya... the video quality is great, played in VLC!  It's just a hassle to use it with JRiver, when you like to go back and forth with a remote control.   Still... i learned something new, thank you!

[JimH]

This would be worth reading.

https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Red_October

[jmone]

There is no need to play with external versions of LAV/madVR (or even really tweak this) ... the internal ones (and settings) work just fine.  Lets get back to a "known base"

If you are playing STD UHD Blurays (23.976fps), then in MC:
- set Video Mode: Red October HQ
- set "Quality Setting" to "Best Performance (low end/integrated GPU)"
- Check Hardware accelerate video decoding when possible
- Check Optimise hardware decoding for performance

- On the PC set your GPU to UHD 23.976 @ 8-Bit (or use MC's Display Rate Changer to do this for you Tools--> Options--> Video--> Display Settings--> Display Settings automatic change mode: On)
- TV also set to "PC"
- Check madVR is set to "PC Levels" and Bitdepth to "Auto"

That should be it.

[jmone]

I have no idea about the "Startech DP-to-HDMI adapter" or any issues that may introduce, does the laptop not have a HDMI port?

[zybex]

Haven't heard of LAV before. 

LAV filters decode/decompress the video stream, MadVR adds post-processing and handles the presentation. You can customize settings for both in MC.

Regarding VLC+IR Remote usage, I think that's just a matter of configuration. Not sure if VLC has the same options, but with MPC-HC I can set it up to start in full screen, to gain Focus when a video starts (works for 2nd video too), and to be on top while video is playing. Depending on which remote you have you can also configure it to perform whatever actions are needed.

Still, I agree that it would be best to get the internal MC player working.

There is no need to play with external versions of LAV/madVR (or even really tweak this) ... the internal ones (and settings) work just fine.  Lets get back to a "known base.

I only mentioned it as a way to have a "control" that one could use to compare the settings.
The DP-to-HDMI adapter shouldn't be the issue since it works fine with VLC.

[tij]

Don't use Windows HDR mode ... last time i checked, its not so good.

You should not use 30fps ... it will result in jutter ... as most movies are 23.976 ... as others suggested should let MC switch to appropriate mode.

If your TV is set on "PC mode" then should use 0-255 in settings.

Also ... if usimg MadVR (RedOctobet HQ) ... while playing movie press ctr+j ... this will bring MadVR rendering stats ... take a screenshot and post it here ... that screen shot helps a lot in troubleshooting MadVR.

[MediaMongrel]

I have no idea about the "Startech DP-to-HDMI adapter" or any issues that may introduce, does the laptop not have a HDMI port?

The laptop does have HDMI, but it's just HDMI 1.4b... hence my need to use the DisplayPort 1.4 for outputting UHD with HDR. 

The Startech DP 1.4 to HDMI adapter is CDP2HD4K60H... and info can be found here:   
https://www.cdw.ca/product/startech.com-usb-c-to-hdmi-adapter-hdr-4k-60hz-usb-c-to-hdmi-converter/5456613?pfm=srh
This may be a useful accessory for some other folks out there.

If it helps the conversation, my exact Lenovo Thinkbook 15 G2 (gen 2) ITL (Intel) model is 20VE006UUS.  Specs can be found here:
https://psref.lenovo.com/Detail/ThinkBook/ThinkBook_15_G2_ITL?M=20VE006UUS

[wer]

Comparisons to PowerDVD and VLC aren't germane to diagnosing MadVR configuration issues, because they don't use MadVR.

Download MPC-HC, and configure it to use its own copy of MadVR.  If that does work, then there's something to be worked out with your JRiver/MadVR configuration.

If that doesn't work, you either have an issue due to your driver or Startech adapter, or it's a MadVR problem that will require madshi to address it.

[MediaMongrel]

Okay... so i went back and put all my MadVR settings as you suggested, Jmone... and the banding was as bad as it has ever been.

Then I went and turned HDR off in Windows Display setting, as you suggested, Tij.  Well... right there, all banding in JRiver disappeared... great image quality!  Also, when playing both SDR and HDR content, they initially looked as I might expect they would (HDR was not dull and greyed-over).  However, I wasn't getting the HDR logo popping up in the corner of my LG CX tv, as it normally does when it detects HDR content, so I investigated and noticed a few issues.

Apparently, as soon as I turn off HDR in Windows Display settings, for the external monitor (tv), it automatically limits it to SDR '8bit'.  Even if I tell MadVR that the tv device is capable of 10bit native display bitdepth... my tv shows that it is still receiving just 8bit (after i do an Easter egg button combo to bring up a special window showing incoming signal info).  No MadVR setting I tried could force a 10bit signal out when Windows Display setting for the device was limited to SDR 8-bit.  Tried letting MadVr decide, passthrough HDR to display, and tone map HDR using pixel shaders.

The next issue I discovered, after turning off HDR in Windows Display, was that the HDR-like-but-Non-HDR signal I was seeing on my tv seemed somewhat brighter in the scene(s) I was using as reference (Hobbit - Desolation of Smaug).  It still had perfect blacks... but the highlights seemed brighter.  I opened up a couple HDR anime movies I'd also been using as reference (Akira, and Weathering You) and saw that their highlights were likewise up'd... but it was totally washed out in the case of Weathering You!  Like, WAY washed out, as you can see in the attached jpg... also showing MadVR render stats (Ctrl J) and Windows Display output.

Sooo.... looks like a case of one step forward, two steps back.  lol

[tij]

on HDR (including HDR logo pop up on TVs) see https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,126153.0.html

EDIT: also strange ... MadVR is downscaling 4K ... is your TV a true 4K TV ... what is your Desktop scaling (DPI)?

[MediaMongrel]

Okay, an update!

So, with HDR off in Windows settings, as before... in MadVR tv device, i tried 'passthrough HDR to display' but unchecked 'send HDR metadata to the display'.  Voila - the dull grey'd out video i would expect from HDR content played on an SDR screen.   Then...

I tried for the 1st time, 'tone map HDR using pixel shaders' with 'output video in HDR format' box checked.  Same overly bright problem as before.  But then...

I tried 'tone map HDR using pixel shaders' and UNchecked the box 'output video in HDR format'.  Okay... this one I'm not too sure what is happening under the hood.  I think my TV would probably do the best job of decoding HDR data... it's kind of weird if MadTV is trying to process HDR and apply it to RGB values PRIOR to sending it to my tv... not knowing what's really going on makes me suspicious, BUT...   the image shows NO banding, and NO blown out highlights.  It looks just like i was previously watching in VLC or PowerDVD. 

However, my tv still doesn't show a popup HDR content logo, and it's incoming stream still shows it is an 8-bit signal its receiving.   If I'm not mistaken, that means, even if I get a darn good image, HDR or not... I'm seeing a reduced colour spectrum than what the original content was (yes, 10bit encoded .mkv file).   Hmmm...

Anyways, here is another screen grab showing MadVR stats (Ctrl J) and Windows Display.

Any comments/insights regarding the recent stats... 8bit vs 10bit... HDR logo popups on tvs... and 'tone map HDR using pixel shaders' without 'output video in HDR format'?

Sorry tij, I just noticed ur link between this and my last post... haven't read it just yet, but will shortly.  Thanks!

[tij]

Its widely accepted that MadVR tone mapping is better than any TV ... unless you using Lumagen or MadVR Envy boxes

EDIT: check your desktop DPI setting ("Change the size of text, apps, other items") and tell us what it is

[MediaMongrel]

also strange ... MadVR is downscaling 4K ... is your TV a true 4K TV ... what is your Desktop scaling (DPI)?

My tv is as good as tv's get these days... LG CX 65" OLED (2020 model), with HDMI 2.1, 2160p.

Desktop scaling?  Hmm... not sure where to find that.  I know in Display Settings, my main (laptop) display is set to 1080p, and my external display (tv) is set to 2160p, as seen in the photos.  I see in the external Display Settings, the section 'Scale and Layout: Change the size of text, apps, and other items' is set to 200% (default, i believe).  If i click the 'Advanced Scaling Settings' just below, i see that 'Let Windows try to fix apps so they're not blurry' is set to OFF, and there is no custom scaling set in the box lower down. 

Is that what you were referring to?

[tij]

The reason I ask for the DPI (which is in your case is 200%) ... is because MadVR seems to be downscaling video ... see line in MadVR OSD - "scale 3840x2160->2400...

I will then assume that your Laptop display resolution is something like 2400x...

so MadVR/MC thinks it playing to Laptop and downscales your Video ...

I have not use multiple screen in a while .... but there is setting somewhere in MC that let you choose which display is primary for video ... i will try to look for it ... but if anyone out there know where it is - please jump in and point in out for us ... thx

[MediaMongrel]

check your desktop DPI setting ("Change the size of text, apps, other items") and tell us what it is

Thanks for your help with this.
So, I turned scaling of fonts/apps down to 100%... now all fonts and things are tiny, when displayed on my tv.  BUt I ran the same video and generated the attached MadVR stats screen grab.

So the downscaling you noticed before was from 3840 x 2160 to... 2,400 x 1,350, yes?   
Well, now that font scaling is 100%, I'm seeing UPscaling from 3840 x 2160 to... 4800 x 2700!!!  lol   

[tij]

Whats the native resolution of your Laptop?

Edit: which of those 2 screen is set to Primary display?

[MediaMongrel]

Native resolution of my laptop screen is 1080p 60Hz.. IPS.
I know for a fact my laptop can output 2160p through DisplayPort 1.4.

So I set my external monitor font scaling to 125%, and that seemed to be the magic # for non-scaling MadVR.   See attached stats from my recent screen grab.

Unfortunately... with these current settings (tonemap HDR with pixel shaders, I presume is the culprit), I'm now seeing juddering in my video.  Even if I set turn on 'enable smooth motion frame rate conversion (only if there would be motion judder without it)', the judder persists.  In the 'trade quality for performance' section, the 1st 10 boxes are all checked (aka, most of 'em).  Hmmm...

[MediaMongrel]

I just checked... my main display (laptop monitor) font scaling was set to 125% all along (recommended setting, it says). 
It the 200% font scaling Display Setting was specific to the external monitor, all along... so MadVR was scaling to based on the external monitor font scaling, not the main laptop monitor font scale setting. 
And i checked, changing one font scale setting does not affect the scale setting for both monitors in tandem. 

[tij]

Your rendering time exceed VSync ... so GPU not able to draw frame before it is required ... and some frame gets droppef ... hence stuttering

I suspect  your previous setting that downscale to 2400p required less processing as resolution was lower

So it seems your GPU is unable to handle tone mapping for full 4K (minimum for 4K is Nvidia 1060 with 6GB RAM)

So you have two option

1. Play at 4K and passthrough HDR to TV to do tone mapping

2. Use previous setting that downscales video to 2400 and use MadVR tone mapping (in this scenario MadVR downscales to 2400 ... does tone mapping ... and likely Windows DPI scales it back to 4K)

Both situations are not ideal ... but it is what it is

[tij]

But its strange tgat when outputting 4800  (dpi 100%) ... madvr able to handle it ...

Let me think on it ... will post later once figure it out

[MediaMongrel]

Also, VLC and PowerDVD 20 renderers are able to do 4k HDR without issue, with this laptop.
Again, thanks for your help!

[tij]

MadVR tone mapping algorithm is very complex (current beta version is even more complex) and requires quite powerful gpu

The topic of tone mapping is quite complex and I do not fully understand it ... suffice to say - trust your eyes and stick with what appeal to yoy as there is no definite standard for tone mapping ... so everything algorithm for it is subjective.

Its worth mentioning that another strength of MadVR is upscaling ... and for animation, NGU algorithms in MadVR can do wonders for 1080p to 2160p ... it looks like native 4k ...but NGU algorithms are quite GPU intensive

EDIT: see this ... https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,126112.msg873894.html#msg873894 ... it has screen shot of 720p to 2160p upscaling using ROHQ(MadVR with NGU) vs RO Stsndard ... thecdifferences are astonishing

[tij]

Regarding 8 vs 10 bit ... due to current HDMI limitation, in RGB (and RGB is what MadVR uses) you can only do 10/12bit at 23.976fps

On my HTPC with Nvidia 1070 ... i put my desktop on 12bit (I have LG E6) at 23.976 ... when required to auto switch to 60fps for certain movies, it automatically switch to 8 bit

If I put my desktop on 60fps 8bit ... when required to switch 23.976, bit depth remains at 8bit

So for me it was either having 12bit for movies, but not so smooth mouse movement VS 8 bit for movies, but with better mouse response ... I chose 12 bit, since on HTPC i dont use mouse (i use remote with Theatre View)

Regarding your screenshot:

You posted 3 cases with different DPI setting that resulted in MadVR scaling your 3840x2160

1. scaling to 2400x1350

2. scaling to 4800x1700

3. play natively at 3840x2160

Here are my observations:

(2) does not seems to be HDR movie as it reports REC709 color space. Are you sure you playing same file for all 3 cases? That might explain why MadVR able to render frame in time for such a high resolution, as it does not do tone mapping

with your current settings your GPU cannot tone map for full 2160p - case (3) ... try disabling MadVR HDR color tweaks for explosion and highlight recovery ... if that does not work, see what dithering option you have in MadVR options [rendering]->[dithering] and try to set it to lower quality

Your presentation queue is not filling up ... check amount of RAM you allocated to your GPU ... minimum is 4GB for 4K playback (if i recall correctly) ... if allocated RAM is good, then try updating your drivers

And finally ... regarding DPI ... given that your screens are 2160p and 1080p ... i find it very weird that 100% DPI gives you 4800x1700 ... how did you set up your two screens in Windows and at which resolutions?

In summary ... your GPU is a bit underpowered to tone map with MadVR at 4K ... I would just passthrough HDR to your TV for tone mapping (in fact I would just stick with RO Standard)

[TheShoe]

nVidia drivers (or Windows?) will save the color bit-depth and format (YPbCr or RGB) for each resolution/refresh rate you set.

I can now run my desktop as 8-bit/RGB/full/2160p60, and when MC/madVR switches to 2160p23, it changes to 12-bit/RGB/full (for example) and when playback is stopped, it restores the desktop to 8-bit/Rgb/full.

With this I have a full RGB pipeline (excepting of course the video itself which is not RGB).  The downside is that this caused me to have to fiddle with brightness/contrast/OLED light values for a while until dark scenes were not showing black crush.  Got it dialed on now where the computer can support both my MC and Video gaming habits without having to muck around too much with settings.

Unless it's an HDR video game, then I need to enable Windows HDR (perfect for HDR in general, not so much for SDR content).

There honestly is *no* perfect setup here - too many variables

[MediaMongrel]

Well, just a quick update on my NEW Lenovo laptop with integrated graphics not being able to play 4k movies without issues...

you were right Tij, the laptop just wasn't powerful enough.  So, I returned shortly after we I last posted... and waited a whole 6 months for Lenovo's 5Pro to become available in N.America.  Now I got a RTX 3060 w/ 16gb RAM, and 4k movies play smoothly. 

Thank you for all the help you and other provided. 

[JoeAverage92]

Okay... so i went back and put all my MadVR settings as you suggested, Jmone... and the banding was as bad as it has ever been.
... my tv shows that it is still receiving just 8bit (after i do an Easter egg button combo to bring up a special window showing incoming signal info)... 

What is the easter egg button combo to bring the "Incoming Signal Info" windows during playback? Thanks

[jmone]

Ctrl+J when the video is playing will toggle on/off madVR (or JRVR)'s OSD.