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Author Topic: 4K HDR files:"stutter" on rapid movement and or vibration effect on Oled TV  (Read 20441 times)

JimH

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JimH

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You have a very fast machine, so it's not likely that the CPU or Disk are causing trouble.

=== Running Benchmarks (please do not interrupt) ===

Running 'Math' benchmark...
    Single-threaded integer math... 1,655 seconds
    Single-threaded floating point math... 2,163 seconds
    Multi-threaded integer math... 0,311 seconds
    Multi-threaded mixed math... 0,366 seconds
Score: 4227

Running 'Image' benchmark...
    Image creation / destruction... 0,160 seconds
    Flood filling... 0,177 seconds
    Direct copying... 0,280 seconds
    Small renders... 0,496 seconds
    Bilinear rendering... 0,228 seconds
    Bicubic rendering... 0,827 seconds
Score: 10149

Running 'Database' benchmark...
    Create database... 0,050 seconds
    Populate database... 0,429 seconds
    Save database... 0,067 seconds
    Reload database... 0,045 seconds
    Search database... 0,703 seconds
    Sort database... 0,360 seconds
    Group database... 0,463 seconds
Score: 10159

JRMark (version 29.0.81 64 bit): 8178
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tkolsto

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That is good. but the JRmark score is 8175 which is high, which is a good score, I understand now. I thought a high score was bad. So Your comment on overclocking was because the score was high, thus suspecting it was due to overclocking which is bad. I understand now as I read in the link that high score the better.

Also I was confused by the different info in the two reports. But that was due to the first was from logging and the second was the benchmark. So I looked at the logging. Thumbnail is 100 percent and is solved as you wrote.

So all is ok now? No more bad info from logging report or benchmark? And I want to ask what I really want know. What does low built thumbnails mean? what does this affect/ what problems could this cause which is now corrected? Updated: I found it low thumbnails can affect movieplay and that is resolve now.

so these reports are a closed chapter now.
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tkolsto

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I have done several things so my disk does not spinn up all the time. some in regestry and in services.mcs. gone through som youtube videos turning things off. I dont know is such things can cause problems. I also unticked in property on every disk, allow indeksing of content of filesl..... Should this be turned on and not off maybe?
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JimH

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You shouldn't need to do that.  I think there's something not right about you system:  antivirus, video driver, power supply, or similar.
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tkolsto

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ok I turned on indeksing again on all disks.
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tkolsto

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I should have taken a picture. I just got a message from firewall or was if defender saying that something in JRiver was blocked in firewall. I allowed it on both private and official networks.
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tkolsto

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I just checked powersettings in windows. It was changed form high performance back to balanced performance.


But high performance is still the recommended setting when using JRiver for movies and bit perfect audio, right? Or is this not so important anymore?

benchmark was almost similar.
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JimH

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Any performance setting will work.
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tkolsto

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I played though the whole movie Batman Begins twice. First time I got 1 framedropp. Second time which I did today, I got 7 framedrops( I did not see it when it occured, but these 7 framedrops came at the end of the movie. I checked 15 minutes or so and when I checked the movie it had 7 framedrops. There only minutes left of the movie when I checked and saw these 7 framedrop. I highly suspect these came all at once, since it occured within the timeframe of 20 minutes.

What could this be that causing this.

Update: I think maybe what caused the 7 framedrops. it is now 20:10 PM. I Have just stopped the movie a few minutes ago. and then I checked the notification panel at lower right corner and there it was a noti. from windows defender: "summary for windows defender; Microsoft Defender Antivirus did not find any threats since last summary. The unit was scanned 4 times". and underneit the time on the notification showed 19:40. So windows defender has scanned my pc 4 times and the last one was probably 19:40 and that is most likely what cause the framdrop. or could it have scanned 4 times after each other? resulting in 7 framedrops? anyway it must have been this defender scan(s) that cause it. Also could JRiver be the cause why this scan happened during film play? that jriver triggered this or these scans? How to fix this? I have gone through the defender setup. So I dont know what to do now.
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tkolsto

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I am going through the defender setup now one more time.

every folder, file and filetype listed was added. https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,114101.0.html

should I try to find processes also maybe? and also there were more files in the program/jriver folder. should I add everything also license file?
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tkolsto

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played batman begins again. this time zero dropped frames. Jrvr and both videoclock and hardware decoding ticked (settings which I used last time too)
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jmone

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 ;D
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JimH

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Good news. 

Was it Windows Defender?

Or did you install the new power supply?
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tkolsto

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Not installed yet. So these 7 framedrops was created by defender( it must have been) and it happened in a 20 min timespan( at the end of the movie). I dont know why?  So what initiated the defender scan...whas it JRiver playing a movie or was it something else that trigered defender to do a scan? What is most likely? I see this happens on occations that a scan is performed. I tend to think this is because something suspisous activity according to defender happened or are occuring, thus the scan. I dont think it was random. I have to say I was surprised that JRiver got framedrops just from a scan and that leads me to lean more on that defender was indeed reacting on JRiver activity and then performed a scan,thus off course JRiver was disturbed by it and it got framdrops from this. When I went through Your defender tutorial, I saw that I had added all files in the JRiver folder. It was 3 or 4 files like the licensing file that was not on your tutorial list. I have now deleted them now from the list. Are these few files not included in the list for a reason? Should these files just be available for defender maybe?




(I have feeling that even with no framdrops the perforamance on Jrvr and madvr vary...sometimes I see more stutter or artifacts around moving objects( often a person or bodypart in motion, on such things one easily detect deviation like an artifact or stutter(not from framdrop but just a oled stutter, to give it a name:  and some times overall performance seam less calm and smooth). When the pc is doing poorer I often replay scenes and then it does it better sometimes, but the trend is lower performance, when I have the impression that it doing poorer. I havent paid enough attention to be 100 persent sure.

But Yesterday when I got 0 framedrops I felt it was doing better. And aftewards for approx 30 minutes I also tried with madvr and it was doing better too and I saw that the deviation in OSD which is shown only in madvr was very low  0.0015. I did not observe to much, but this is what I felt from watching the little that I saw. Is this deviation number important or is it just there to show only if it is really bad? lower is better. how low should it be to not to be able to see a change in performance? )
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tkolsto

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strange. I ofte detect poorer pc performance when I go netflix on my operabrowser. when I click on the arrow to move the movietitles sideway. I then detect that they hang a bit too much. I then went to the intenett providers spedometer and it showed jitter 18 and and ping at 32 (is this good enough?) and speed up and down was ok. before that I used a two different ones which one show bad upload(not that important ) and ok download and jitter at 18 or so and ms at 40 or so. I ran it a couple of times til I got the result I listed above in this text. and then when it was showing ok, if ping 32 and 18 jitter is ok. I then went to netflix again and then it was doing better, normal not blur or hang when movies moved sideways. This is in line with what I experience with  JRiver which I tried to explain in the post above.

Could this be actually the psu that is the one creating this small different performance. since it is so uneaven or unstable. just in a small way, but still maybe the psu could be the actually cause?
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tkolsto

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About those 7 framedrops. Maybe that it was not the defender itself that triggered the framedrops. It could be that it was just a notifcation itself that did this when it pop up in the sidebar. maybe any notification that would pop up will create framedrops, because they come up very rarely. I will remember next time I get framedrops.

I did a new check using Batman Begins 4k hdr. This time using Madvr and both videoclock and hardware decoding when possibel enabled. not one singel framdrop.

Now I am going to wait for the PSU to be installed and I will focus on view movies using jrvr and madvr(and maybe with or without videoclock and gpu/hardware decoding when possible)and see if it perfomes good or bad/ stutter or oled stutter to see if is rendering the same everytime. What I wrote about I see a different in smoothnes stutter or artifacts in motion is different at times. This will be my focus now to be sure I am not confused, which I am quite sure I am not. Could just be that it is just the way it is which would be a dissapointment.
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jmone

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Anything that draws on top of the video windows can cause frame drops when they appear (like windows notifications, mouse cursor etc).
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tkolsto

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PSU still not installed. Just tried watching Alien Covenant. Just watching. And it was very good. I also set deblur at same number as dejudder, at 7 (7/7). I got a comment on a Youtube post I wrote. There a guy wrote that de-blur smooths out motion when panning is not involved, like quick hand movements and rapid headturn. In comments on forums on the net, I also read that de-blur was only active in higher framerate content like 50/60 fps/hz. But when I watched the start of the covenant movie in the white room. This was better. I even watched twice and it looked to be a bit better..smoother.
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tkolsto

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Reguarding those 7 framedrops and I think it is from the notification message(which is shown some seconds above the movie screen) and not defender itself.

I also  saw the beginning of Silence of the Lambs 1080p and it was also very good and tight and better than last time I checked this movie(several months ago).
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tkolsto

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New psu installed Corsair RM750 Gold Plus. The 1 stutter/framedrop using madvr after 30 seconds is solved, but not the 13 second 1 stutter/framedrop using Jrvr. The 30 second was more important. I had a feeling they where interlinked but they are most likely caused by diffent issue(which I dont know what is). So the 30 second stutter was maybe solved by the new psu or when updating to latest ..83 build (most likely the latter). :-). Pray to heaven that it is not coming back.


Also one more thing. Yesterday HDR movies started to be colorless when interacting with the mouse and panel. and when one let go the picture is coming back in full color again and now I get a glitch every time instead of one or two framedrops.I get a glitch instead of framedrop. This fading out and in of colors has happened before. Strange. I think it came after I updated JRiver to latest build..83 and maybe it is supposed to be this way. Last time I experienced this it was a bit slow when it switched back to bright hdr picture again. So it is not that annoying as it change fast back to normal picture.


I dont know why it suddenly change behaviour.
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tkolsto

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Watched Covenant again using Madvr. the several scenes where the spaceships are comming into the screen are even more fast and buttery smooth. I can not remember that it being this smooth. The difference is small but very noticeable to me at least
. Last time I can remember it being this is smooth is early january or before new year/ christmas, but this is long time ago now too. . It was not bad before this, but has more fluency now.


When I am finnished with all of this. I might have to buy a new gpu. I think it was when I took the rtx 3050 card out of the old Livingroom/TV desktop and wanted to use the card in a newer pc, my "office" desktop to see if I got better rendering.(Amd Ryzen i7 2700x, 16 gb, ROG STRIX B450-F GAMING). First time I used it on this pc I played Alien covenant and the first spaceships scene was awsome. The dept/contrast I saw was very good. I dont know how to get that again. It was a one time and the next day It was like it used to be again. Very strange. I did not do any tweaking when I put the card into the "office" pc. And I did not want to try to tweak to get this amazing picture again. Maybe I will get this if I try higher setting in madvr, but this will ruin the default setting and I have to reinstall JRiver again.
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tkolsto

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Could my Pc easily use madvr quality setting? (windows 10 pro, intel i5 12600kf, nvidia rtx 3050 8gb,  16 gb, asrock z690 rs pro). I am not 100 persent sure, but reading quality setting in a jriver post about this, it says best quality settings is for mid range dedicated gpu“s and this post was from 2018. I would say this would qualify?

Does anybody familiar with this setting. Will there be better contrast/picture dept with best quality settings in madvr?(this is what I most want to see).
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JimH

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madVR questions would be best addressed on the madVR thread on doom9.
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tkolsto

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Ok Thank You.
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tkolsto

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JimH. The stutter at 12-14 seconds which happens on Jrvr after pushing play, could this be solved next update? Maybe it can be fixed, just like the stutter at approx 30 second on madvr.

By the way the rendering is better on Jrvr than Madvr, less stutter on some certain scenes. It is not huge difference but it is there. I think only a new TV or better gpu or better driver could reduce stutter at this point. It is very good now in terms of oled.
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JimH

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JimH. The stutter at 12-14 seconds which happens on Jrvr after pushing play, could this be solved next update? Maybe it can be fixed, just like the stutter at approx 39 second on madvr.
I don't think you're seeing a problem with MC.  We haven't done any work recently that might affect madVR, for example.
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tkolsto

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No madvr is ok now. either the ...83 update fixed it or the new psu. I am talking about Jrvr and a stutter at approx 12-14 seconds after pushing play on the panel. This was not the case earlier. I am not sure when this problem happened. I dont think this stutter should be there. Maybe it is something else that does this. It happens excactly at the same time every time I push play.

Maybe a reinstall will solve this, now when I have a new psu.

or could this be something else interfearing somehow, a installed program.

What could cause this stutter at 12-14 second?

and one question about OSD(ctrl + j). about performance,  the peak ms is the important measurement I would say. what is considered to be the limit for safe rendering?
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tkolsto

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no frame drops or repeated frames or glitches. still there is stutter in some scenes. So stutter do appear on certain motion scenes. I watched The Batman and I saw this several places and also a car chase where one of the cars sudden jumped from A to B in a very sudden glitchy way, but there were no framedrops or anything.

What is strange is that I also saw the same on a netflix film a short 1 second scene where a guy moves his head/body back away from the stove. I first saw this scene and his head motion stutter(very short scene 1 sec). and the next two times one only get to see that he have already stepped back in rapid glitchy jumpy way. much of the head motion stutter was removed. If I hadn't seen the the whole scene the first time I played the scene, I would not have noticed it so easily that some frames was not shown/missing. very very strange behaviour. Anyways on JRiver stutter in short rapid scenes and even not that rapid scenes stutter appears. Why is that? I have interpolation very high at 7.

also in this thread on post 3, a guy writes that on madvr one can get stutter without any framedrops. The stutter above is when I use JRVR so if it could happen on madvr, why couldnt it also be the case on JRVR?. https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,131139.0.html ( from the post/reply 3: "If you have a Nvidia 20xx/30xx video card and you encounter micro stutter while using madVR"). So this is on nvidia 20xx/30xx card which I have. Could it be that nvidia does not handle 23.976fps/hz that well and that amd is better?
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jmone

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As most movies are rendered at a slow 23.976 fps, the directors try to minimise fast pans to avoid this effect.  I'm guessing what you are seeing is simply in the source material and while I'm no fan of frame interpolation I know some like it to try to blur this over.  To check, you can pause MC prior to the scene and frame step by Ctrl+Right Arrow (I think that is the combo).   Also get a hold of an Ang Lee movie like Gemini Man as it is rendered at 59.94fps as a comparison.
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tkolsto

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After work today, I had another try on playing the car scene. I tried several times with and without videoclock ticked and on JRVR and on Madvr, so 4 times/variations in all. and replayed it too. I could not reproduce the glitchy rendering of the car from A to B. Now it was normal like it should be. I highly suspect now that all the other micro stuttering happening without framedrops happening is also gone. I dont want ut see the movie all over again to check. This behaviour that some time it is poorer performance and other times it is normal bahaviour is in line with what I have experienced many times now and this have made it very confusing. I have written about this earlier in this thread also, several times about a change in performance when it comes to stutter problems. It made me confused. Now I know that sometimes it is poorer and sometimes it is back to normal. Still I have not found out why this happens. This irregular behaviour in performance. Very strange.
It mostly small stutter that happens so one see more of it when the performance is poorer. And in very rapid scenes like the car scene when the car suddenly jumps from point A to point B in jumpy/glitchty way(read, worse than stutter but the scene is very short ,1 sec).

Overall the problems I had in the beginning of the thread is better now. This is probably due to a new gpu and pc.

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tkolsto

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Now it is worse again. more stutter following with artifacts. Even with truemotion set to smooth, which yeasterday was very good. Very strange!

And it is the same if I watch Netflix or play a movie with JRiver. Very annoying.

Does anybody experienced such change in performance? I dont have much programs installed on this Pc. But does anybody know of what type of programs that maybe can cause this?. I dont think that is the case but I am now out of options.
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JimH

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Did you ever replace the power supply?
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tkolsto

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Yes it is installed.
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JimH

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You're doing some of this, but the way to find the cause of a difficult problem like this is to, one at a time, change each element.  The TV, the video hardware, the driver, etc.

Isolate whether it's related to reading the file or only with its display.

The biggest problem you have is that you're not getting consistent results.  One day it works, the next day it doesn't.  It's behavior you might expect if you had radio interference from a microwave, or power fluctuations.

I know that you probably know most or all of this, but think about your overall approach to the problem. 

And ... I admire your patience and determination.
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tkolsto

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Earlier I always got the message " gsync compatibel display is connected". I dont get that anymore. I think it started to not show after a Tv update from Lg.  But I dont think that is important, since gsync is not in use while playing movies.
This problem that I am having is not due to JRiver. So maybe it is something in the net, somebody using an application that make disturbence on the net, a fluctuation like You suggested. I live in a flat, could be a neighbour and why it is irregular.

What do you mean when You suggest changing one element at a time. driver can always be updated(but this problem has happened so many times so I dont think a driver could solve this). But Tv and video hardware(gpu), by change You mean buy new one? try a new gpu or tv?

I sometimes have a suspicioun that it could be a bad connection between the oled tv and pc or truemotion itself or something that makes these things not work properly at times.(That lg is not so focused on 23.976 rendering, only gaming, streaming and regular tv use), that they dont go together sometimes. There might be a bad communication between the two.

Update: reguarding fluctuations. I have an expensive "stream toad"(with thick cobber power cord)(cant find the english word for it), but it is for cleaning out fluctuations or clean the electricity in the net to get better audio(they sell them on audio hifi shops). and it costs abit too(400 dollar, but it is old, its german brand T+A is its name. High quality brand. As I understand this is a more static device that I dont think would stop doing what it supposed to do just because it is a bit old) everthing is connected to it, the TV , PC, Bel Canto DAC, Cyrus amplifier and my Sub.
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tkolsto

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I have written that I had irregular performance when playing 4k videos on JRiver both madvr and Jrvr. There is more stutter in general while playing a movie. when this happens (more stutter), there is no framedrops and repeated frames or glitches. Everything is ok on the OSD. When this happens(this change in behaviour) it is also applied to Netflix. So this indicates that it is not JRiver. So this could be the Oled TV(LG B1) that is behaving badly, not working properly when it is connected to pc. I dont use pc mode on my TV. Hdmi pc mode dont let me use truemotion/interpolation to to get smooth movieplay in general. But it could also be my gpu(nvidia rtx 3050) either gpu having problem working together with this
Lg Oled model or The TV is the one that have problem when this gpu card is used. It looks to be hardware related. The driver could also be a culprit but I have updated it every time there is an update, so it is less chance that the driver is the problem.

So Yesterday when I watched The Batman ( almost only dark scenes in this new batman movies). I have seen it before, but this time the stuttering became worse and by a lot to it was it was more choppiness than regular increase in stutter. So it was worse. then I stopped viewing the movie. after a while I thought why not try to change the renderer from JRVR to Madvr again. Then I saw that the whole screen reacted like it reset the setting or something like that. then it was normal again. So when I changed the rendering mode on JRiver corrected this issue. I am not certain that this change in performance that happened this time was the same that happened when it get bad rendering at times(or often I should say). but it looked to be very similar only larger stuttering (choppines or tiny glitches).

What to think of this. I am also certain I did this maneuver some months ago and it got better. Any thoughts?

Update: I did not have vsync enabled in nvidia panel. so this leads me to think that when I experience this poorer performance it looks like when vsync is not activated on get more larger stutter choppines stutter. If I had vsync on it will not be that bad. This could look to be the case.
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tkolsto

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I went into windows setting through control panel. I chose adminsitrative tools and then device manager( I think that is the name in english). Here one can see all the hardware on the pc. and I went down to and chose graphics card where I find the RTX 3050. I double clicked on it and the properties window for the card came up. I then clicked on the driver tab. And here it says the following: driver deliver is Nvidia and driver date is 21.07.22??? and underneith the driver version (some numbers) is listed and then that the drive is digitally signed by microsoft.

Shouldn't the latest nvidia driver version and the date come up here instead of some older microsoft driver? How do I know that my gpu is using nvidia's latest driver and not this microsoft driver which is listed in the graphics drivers properties?
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JimH

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Didn't jmone give you some advice on drivers recently?
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tkolsto

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He answered a pm once, but that was just that I should not send full range color to lg tv. I cant remember that he has. I went though my threads/posts that I have made and I could not find anything regarding driver and jmone
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JimH

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tkolsto

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Thank You. I do a DDU driver clean followed by clean install by latest nvidia driver every install I do and I use safemode.
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JimH

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Latest is not always best
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tkolsto

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Did some googling. There is almost nothing on rendering movies and drivers only gaming, gaming, gaiming...My card rtx 3050 was released in january. So I should not look for drivers older than say february or so. I have used almost every driver since I bought the card in february, cant say I experienced any difference when it comes to this problem.
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tkolsto

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I interpret that your suspicioun to be a driver issue. I read from your link that logging could maybe reveal what the problem could be. I have read through the link/wiki about logging. Is it so that a loging is done everytime one uses JRiver and only the last two loggings are stored at any time? I am asking because then I could just use JRiver and when I encounter the issue again I would be the present log.

I mean that I only use JRiver when I want to play a movie from local file and I always close up when I Am finshed. So then I could just wait and use JRiver and store the log file when I expericence this flaw and mail it to You.
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JimH

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I doubt that logging would tell us anything.  Your problem is subtle and not reproducible. 
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tkolsto

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delete
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tkolsto

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delete
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JimH

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Did you ever calculate how much power you need?

https://outervision.com/power-supply-calculator
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tkolsto

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I did not find the right intel cpu so I chose the best from the pull down and chose the rest of the gear. I got the result 534 watt. I only got to choose a 50 inch monitor lcd, i don't think that matters that much.

I got a 750 watt psu gold edition , so I think I am good!
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