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[jmone]

That should be fixed in the next build.

Thanks - seems to be fixed.

[jmone]

Hi, is it possible to install mc30 to a microsoft surface tablet which uses window?

Don't see why not (if it is the stock intel based windows versions).

[JimH]

Hi, is it possible to install mc30 to a microsoft surface tablet which uses window?

There are some new ARM based Surface devices coming out that would not run JRiver Media Center.

https://www.theverge.com/23421326/microsoft-surface-pro-9-arm-qualcomm-sq3-review

jmone is correct about Intel based devices.

I will move this to a new thread.

[whph]

Planned
- (Maybe) Dolby Vision Enhancement Layer support (for UltraHD Blu-ray discs) (under investigation)

Are there any news on this topic?
This would be a massive upgrade for my usecases. 

[Hendrik]

This in particular is more of a long-term goal that'll need research and development, won't be done over night.

[whph]

Thanks for the info.
As soon as the "(maybe)" can be removed, that would already be a big status update. 

[eve]

This in particular is more of a long-term goal that'll need research and development, won't be done over night.

Oh man, I'd love if you'd at some point share this journey. FEL DV support is extremely interesting to me. I was *really* surprised when a merge showed up in MPV to support regular DV, I think at the end of last year maybe?

[Manfred]

GPU compute accelerated shader deinterlacing in JRVR (based on the YADIF algorithm).

If that's the new preferred algorithm it works perfectly. Thanks! It uses ~2-5 % GPU less! gpu utilisation on my AMD Ryzen 7 5700G compared to Win D3D.

[tkolsto]

I wonder if there are plans in the coming versions or next build on more scaling options, more specifically NGU scaling.

[Hendrik]

NGU is a proprietary algorithm invented for madVR, nothing else will ever feature it.

But you should try out FSRCNNX, its of a similar design and quality.

[tkolsto]

Thanks Hendrik. I have always wonder what high quality, slow when choosing these options. What is that is slow? has it anything to do with overall performance?

It also is written that using this doubling will impact gpu performancen quite a bit. I choose FSRCNNX8 and there is no difference in rendering time which is about 4.8 ms. So no differance in usage compare to RAVU which I was using.

[eve]

NGU is a proprietary algorithm invented for madVR, nothing else will ever feature it.

But you should try out FSRCNNX, its of a similar design and quality.

This. It's relatively close to NGU.

[tkolsto]

Thanks for the info .

I wonder how does this loading of preseting of quality work? When I choose best quality setting for example. does JRiver autamatically choose setting pre chosen or does it choose the setting on how "good" your hardware are?

[jmone]

It's just a preset.

[Valephar]

Hi

Not sure if I am posting this in the right place.

I have been having two issues when using the JRVR preset.
1.) I usually detach my display to a secondary monitor. The first movie I play usually plays, but then the moment I play a new movie, the screen just shows nothing. It goes black. When I hit stop, I see a brief screenshot of the movie. This has been an issue in V29 as well. Everything works perfectly when I select MADVR.

2.) When I set the JRVR preset to quality, it always defaults back to Performance when I go back in. It feels like it should be an option, that when selected, it should stay selected. Not sure if I am doing it wrong. Are you only meant to load the preset and then it defaults back to performance?

Not sure if you know about these, or if I am doing anything wrong, but I just thought I'd mention it.
Thanks

[lello]

This in particular is more of a long-term goal that'll need research and development, won't be done over night.

Help me understand. Currently I only get DV with MKV file and not BDMV, right?

So if I convert my BDMV to MKV can I get the DV?

If so, what program do you recommend me to buy?

[jkauff]

If you use MakeMKV, you already have the tool you want.

If not, download the latest beta. I got the paid version years ago to support the development team, and I'd recommend that for anyone who uses it on a regular basis.

[eve]

Help me understand. Currently I only get DV with MKV file and not BDMV, right?

So if I convert my BDMV to MKV can I get the DV?

If so, what program do you recommend me to buy?

JRiver can only decode DV, and only the MEL portion right now. It cannot pass DV through to your display. Currently, the most advisable option is continue to rip your BDMVs, as well as creating MKVs. MakeMKV can create MKVs from UHD + DV discs, that have a perfect HDR fallback, while still retaining the DV information. This is what I'm doing, it doesn't make sense to throw out the DV portion since, DV on UHD disc has a fallback anyways.


Full DV playback with FEL is still a minefield. Select hardware players sort of have it down but I haven't really looked into the support matrix in the last like 8 months. Lots has changed. A huge barrier IMO was the lack of android TV boxes with a second H265 hardware decoder which is required for FEL.

[Hendrik]

I wouldn't recommend trying to force processing of a Blu-ray DV title through JRVR right now. Without full processing, especially on FEL titles, the resulting image may not necessarily be "better", as its unpredictable what half the processing might do.

[lello]

Sorry Hendrik, but I'm too ignorant on the subject to understand your answer: are you saying that you shouldn't convert BD UHD DV to MKV?
Is it better to wait for the future (maybe) Dolby Vision Enhancement Layer support?

[Hendrik]

I'm saying you shouldn't do it to get some kind of Dolby Vision text to show up on the JRVR OSD.

[lello]

Maybe I expressed myself badly somewhere, but I never said that I'm interested in seeing Dolby Vision written on JRVR's OSD, 
I'm interested in getting the DV and that's it.

Since I noticed that I could get DV on MKVs, I thought I'd learn how to do the conversion.

So even though DV appears on the OSD doesn't that mean decoding actually took place?  ?

Anyway, I managed to convert BD UHD to MKV, but comparing individual frames, I didn't see any substantial differences.

But maybe it depends on my ignorance.

[danbez]

I'm also very interested in FEL support. This would be THE feature that would push me out of MadVR.  As previously mentioned, the only ways to playback a FEL title today are:

1. Use one of the few AndroidTV devices that support it. For example, CCwGTV. But all devices won't work with lossless sound. So not an option for me.
2. Use the Oppo or Sony 4K blu-ray players, but often requires an ISO image. You also lose all nice UI interface, etc. So also a no go.
3. Use DoViBaker to re-encode the HEVC file. It's time consuming and requires the use of FFMPEG to re-encode the resulting layer - so results may vay pending the options you chose in the FFPMEG command line.

So a solution via JRiver would be fantastic. I can volunteer to test any ideas, private builds etc. I have spent a lot of time with all 3 solutions above so I know what to look for :-)

[TheShoe]

I'm also very interested in FEL support. This would be THE feature that would push me out of MadVR.  As previously mentioned, the only ways to playback a FEL title today are:

1. Use one of the few AndroidTV devices that support it. For example, CCwGTV. But all devices won't work with lossless sound. So not an option for me.
2. Use the Oppo or Sony 4K blu-ray players, but often requires an ISO image. You also lose all nice UI interface, etc. So also a no go.
3. Use DoViBaker to re-encode the HEVC file. It's time consuming and requires the use of FFMPEG to re-encode the resulting layer - so results may vay pending the options you chose in the FFPMEG command line.

So a solution via JRiver would be fantastic. I can volunteer to test any ideas, private builds etc. I have spent a lot of time with all 3 solutions above so I know what to look for :-)

Edited for more clarity:

There are some SoC based solutions that claim to provide full DV support including all its various specifications (MEL, FEL), from full disc backups and from files (MKV, etc...).  I have been testing the Dune 4K Max Vision which seems to playback DV full-disc backups without issue and does indeed kick the set into its "Dolby Vision" mode.  Whether it's perfect playback or not I am not certain and would not know how to tell definitively with these eyes.

[danbez]

There are plenty of SoC based solutions that provide full DV support including all its various specifications, from full disc backups and from files (MKV, etc...)

Can you give me one example of solution that provides full DV support and Lossless sound on MKV files? I am not aware of any ATM. As I said before, some come close - like ChromeCast with Google TV, but fails to provide lossless sound.

[eve]

I wouldn't recommend trying to force processing of a Blu-ray DV title through JRVR right now. Without full processing, especially on FEL titles, the resulting image may not necessarily be "better", as its unpredictable what half the processing might do.

Actually a good point. I don't use JRVR for these and frankly, it *would* be unpredictable with JRVR since that understands DV metadata. In my system, I'm still running my remuxes (which contain DV + the fallback) through MadVR with no issue.

Sorry for the confusion.

[TheShoe]

Can you give me one example of solution that provides full DV support and Lossless sound on MKV files? I am not aware of any ATM. As I said before, some come close - like ChromeCast with Google TV, but fails to provide lossless sound.

Yep - seems you are correct - there isn't a 100% solution.  After some experimenting today, here's where I ended up:

I remuxed Saving Private Ryan (a notable use case - thanks) using tsMuxer from the playlist 0800.mpls

tsMuxer identified both video tracks (main + enhancement layer) and rexumed into a ts file.  From there MediaInfo confirmed both video tracks are in the file.  Second video track is: dvhe.07.06, EL+RPU

The ts file plays fine on my Oppo 203 in Dolby Vision, and interestingly it plays fine on the Dune (no flashing around the 2:35min mark -it's quite noticeable and annoying).  The Dune identifies it as: Dolby Vision P7 DT DL.

The mkv file I created earlier using MakeMKV is identified by the Dune as Dolby Vision P7 ST DL -- since it combines it into one video track, BL+EL+RPU as confirmed by MediaInfo

Now we know the Dune is not really using the enhancement layer as has been pointed out on various other forums, but in the .ts file case, we seem to still have Dolby Vision with an EL+RPU video track, and the playback at least in the .ts container exhibits none of the flashing that the full BDMV backup and the MKV files do.

I went and played back the raw m2ts file on the Dune, and it showed it as P7 DT DL, but it has the flashing.  I'd consider this a bug in the Dune, and would guess that in general, while not 100% DV FEL support, it should not be exhibiting the artifacts either.

Ultimately I think Dolby makes things far more complicated than necessary.  Hoping Hendrik can figure out how to add additional support over time to Media Center, as I'm not inclined to use a stand-alone STB for various reasons and much prefer an HTPC. 

Sorry for the off-topic - was just an interesting aside and learned somethings today at least.

[danbez]

Yep - seems you are correct - there isn't a 100% solution.  After some experimenting today, here's where I ended up:

I remuxed Saving Private Ryan (a notable use case - thanks) using tsMuxer from the playlist 0800.mpls

tsMuxer identified both video tracks (main + enhancement layer) and rexumed into a ts file.  From there MediaInfo confirmed both video tracks are in the file.  Second video track is: dvhe.07.06, EL+RPU

The ts file plays fine on my Oppo 203 in Dolby Vision, and interestingly it plays fine on the Dune (no flashing around the 2:35min mark -it's quite noticeable and annoying).  The Dune identifies it as: Dolby Vision P7 DT DL.

The mkv file I created earlier using MakeMKV is identified by the Dune as Dolby Vision P7 ST DL -- since it combines it into one video track, BL+EL+RPU as confirmed by MediaInfo

Now we know the Dune is not really using the enhancement layer as has been pointed out on various other forums, but in the .ts file case, we seem to still have Dolby Vision with an EL+RPU video track, and the playback at least in the .ts container exhibits none of the flashing that the full BDMV backup and the MKV files do.

I went and played back the raw m2ts file on the Dune, and it showed it as P7 DT DL, but it has the flashing.  I'd consider this a bug in the Dune, and would guess that in general, while not 100% DV FEL support, it should not be exhibiting the artifacts either.

Ultimately I think Dolby makes things far more complicated than necessary.  Hoping Hendrik can figure out how to add additional support over time to Media Center, as I'm not inclined to use a stand-alone STB for various reasons and much prefer an HTPC. 

Sorry for the off-topic - was just an interesting aside and learned somethings today at least.

Thanks for checking! Yes, that's why I am really hopeful that Hendrik will manage to tackle this issue and make JRiver the first full solution - providing full DV/Lossless sound/MKV support. 

[Steviewunda]

2.) When I set the JRVR preset to quality, it always defaults back to Performance when I go back in. It feels like it should be an option, that when selected, it should stay selected. Not sure if I am doing it wrong. Are you only meant to load the preset and then it defaults back to performance?

Not sure if you know about these, or if I am doing anything wrong, but I just thought I'd mention it.
Thanks

Hi - I am experiencing this as well. Can someone respond please - if I select the Quality Preset and apply it, shouldn't it be selected if I go back in?
Cheers

[jmone]

Nope (& I also was confused at first) -  Think of it as a "Load Profile" button rather than a fixed "Preset".  The idea is that it will change JRVR settings to the selected values.... but you can still modify or tweak them as you wish.

Edit - Think about it more as if it was as per this pic where it defaults back to the text asking you to pick an option to load rather than what option was loaded:

[Steviewunda]

Thanks for clarifying 

[jmone]

- HDR -> SDR tonemapping for video conversion and streaming
- (Maybe) HDR video streaming

Hi Hendrik, I'd posted this in a different thread forgetting it was on your list anyway.    Any progress on this?

Also, I'm still keen on SDR --> HDR tonemapping if you think it would be better than what Win11 does (with HDR on). 

Thanks
Nathan

[bogdanbz]

Hi, is it possible to install mc30 to a microsoft surface tablet which uses window?

Yes, it is. I have it on my Surface Pro.

[bogdanbz]

Feature suggestion: the use of Nvidia's FRUC library for video frame interpolation. It might be only for 4xxx series though. The Optical Flow unit is available on cards starting with Turing (2xxx series and more recent), but I don't know if this SDK can make use of it for video interpolation on them (they restrict the use of the unit to 4xxx series for DLSS, I don't know about video usage).

Just wanted to say the Optical Flow SDK which allows the use of this feature has been released last week (together with the all new CUDA version that brings support for the Ada Lovelace architecture).

Here's the nvidia blog article about it, and here's the SDK.

[dotnet]

Hi

Not sure if I am posting this in the right place.

I have been having two issues when using the JRVR preset.
1.) I usually detach my display to a secondary monitor. The first movie I play usually plays, but then the moment I play a new movie, the screen just shows nothing. It goes black. When I hit stop, I see a brief screenshot of the movie. This has been an issue in V29 as well. Everything works perfectly when I select MADVR.

I have the exact same problem.

[jmone]

When doing HDR --> SDR Tonemapping, are the algos changing both brightness and gamut (eg is it doing 2020 --> 709 for example)?

[Audionut11]

When doing HDR --> SDR Tonemapping, are the algos changing both brightness and gamut (eg is it doing 2020 --> 709 for example)?

I would expect that it respects the calibration setting in the output display settings page.

[Hendrik]

When doing HDR --> SDR Tonemapping, are the algos changing both brightness and gamut (eg is it doing 2020 --> 709 for example)?

Those are technically entirely independent steps, but of course. It looks at the gamut you have configured in the settings, or uses an ICC profile if available to determine it. You could in theory also have BT.2020 SDR mode, and it would work just fine in that - but its not a common setup people use.

[jmone]

Thanks - I was having an offline discussion with a PJ user who wanted to tone map down the brightness but keep 2020 on HDR material as his unit could do DCI-P3 but had limited nits.   

As an aside, I imagine that as we get more and more penetration of high nits / wide colour space displays, the focus will move from tonemapping HDR source --> SDR displays to tonemapping SDR source --> HDR displays to take full advantage of these displays.  I see the latest QD-OLED hits around 1,500nits (2% coverage) and 83% of 2020 (over 100% of DCI-P3) which is quite something.  About 2/3rds of my UHD's are mastered to 1,000 nits with the rest mostly 4,000.  Most seem to be DCI-P3 rather than 2020 but it's a bit harder to tell on that one.

[Hendrik]

take full advantage of these displays

Can't really generate data that doesn't exist. HDR is not to make everything brighter - its to make highlights brighter. Without proper human mastering, those sort of processes just don't work right.

[jmone]

Fair enough.  Win11 HDR On seems to do an OK job, just figured that (at some point) a "better" 3rd party implementation may be available. 

[danbez]

Thanks - I was having an offline discussion with a PJ user who wanted to tone map down the brightness but keep 2020 on HDR material as his unit could do DCI-P3 but had limited nits.   

As an aside, I imagine that as we get more and more penetration of high nits / wide colour space displays, the focus will move from tonemapping HDR source --> SDR displays to tonemapping SDR source --> HDR displays to take full advantage of these displays.  I see the latest QD-OLED hits around 1,500nits (2% coverage) and 83% of 2020 (over 100% of DCI-P3) which is quite something.  About 2/3rds of my UHD's are mastered to 1,000 nits with the rest mostly 4,000.  Most seem to be DCI-P3 rather than 2020 but it's a bit harder to tell on that one.

Yeah - Tonemap HDR to SDR Bt.2020 is an important goal for Projector users. That's what I do today with MadVR (also possible with the Panasonic UHD player).

[jmone]

...but if PJ (or display) can do above 100nits, then would going SDR BT2020 not be a great choice?  Wouldn't you be better aiming for HDR BT2020 but tone mapped to the actual capability of the PJ/display (be it 200/400/1,000/etc nits)?  Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

[mattkhan]

If the display capabilities are greater than the source content specifies then it should be able to reproduce it perfectly, why would you want to change that?

[jmone]

The question is if you have a UHD BD @ 1,000 / 4,000 /10,000 nits & BT2020 why would you want to tonemap it down to SDR if you display can do above 100Nits?  Would you not want to tonemap it down to the capability of the display?

[mattkhan]

I don't follow, SDR in this context  (tone mapping HDR) just means do tone mapping in the source to whatever parameters you specify (which commonly includes some measure that is aware of the peak nits capability of the display and the target gamut). It doesn't mean tone map to the SDR reference.

[Hendrik]

SDR or HDR output are technically independent of the brightness level you tonemap to. At least we use those terms typically to indicate how the image is encoded - gamma light for SDR, and PQ for HDR.

You can target 200 nits and encode that as SDR, if you know your display can display that properly, which is something projector owners do, as their HDR/PQ processing is sometimes not great.
Or you can still target 200 nits and encode this as HDR/PQ. It won't make use much of the extended range of PQ, and you need to make sure its 10-bit or you get banding, but it would work similar to pass-through.

The second case is not currently supported in JRVR, and its what you would typically call "HDR to HDR" tonemapping. But you can have the exact same image encoded as SDR, and as long as your display is setup to process that, it would be fine. Might even have advantages, if the PQ processing of the display is not great.

[jmone]

Thanks for all that and that is my new nugget of info for the day!  The missing piece for me was that I thought SDR was limited to 100nits (or the "Extended" SDR 110nits) that was used for broadcast for ages. 

[danbez]

Great explanation from Hendrik, as usual. On my personal case, I have 100 nits max on High lamp (JVC RS500). So I use HDR -> SDR.2020 tonemapping, with a max nit target of 100.

BTW - Hendrik - any updates you can offer on the idea of supporting DV? Is it still a possibility for MC30?

[murray]

Im thinking of moving up from MC29 to MC30 tomorrow but first:

Currently I still use madvr with MC29 as there were things I needed before switching to JRVR, these are the features I need and have they been implemented in JRVR yet, if not will they?
1.   Anamorphic stretch for an Isco IIL 1.33x lens. Manual on and off, (not auto switching)
2.   Profiles
3.   Enhancement features like madvr, sharpen edges, crispen edges, thin edges, enhance detail
4.   NGU, I believe JRVR has something similar now, hopefully as good.