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[JimH]

Biden.  Trump. 

I remember Nixon vs. Humphrey in 1968, during the war in Viet Nam.  No good choice.  Nixon won.  Gloomy time. 

2024 has been equally uninspiring.  I've supported Biden, financially and otherwise, but without a lot of enthusiasm.  He's done a good job as President, but the debate on Thursday was the sad end of his career, in my opinion.

Biden will be 82 in November.  I'll be 80 a month later.  I can't imagine keeping the schedule he has.

If he doesn't make a decision now, we are extremely likely to have Trump in office again.  Unbelievable, but likely.  The Federal government, already a mess, will descend into chaos.

I see two possibilities.

1.  Biden releases his delegates, and asks for an open convention.  We go back to the time when conventions meant something and weren't just a pageant.  Anyone can be nominated, and rounds of voting continue until someone achieves a majority of delegates.  If the delegates want Biden, then he gets the nomination, but delegates do their job.

2.  Biden continues, Harris agrees to step aside, and Barack Obama becomes Biden's running mate.  Biden agrees to vacate the office when unable to serve, making Obama  President, who then selects Harris as VP.

I believe the Constitution allows this.  Obama can't run for President again because of term limits, but he could run as Vice President and then serve as President if Biden is unable.

Though I grew up in Nebraska, a very Red state, I'm a lifelong Democrat.  I've supported candidates at all levels, given significant money, and run for office a few times.  I won a couple of times.  I think the system is flawed, but it's what we have and we have to work with it.

I'm extremely concerned about the possibility that Trump might win.  The Supreme Court is now political, mainly due to his work and McConnell's.  If we have a court that is still more political, we're in deep trouble.

[Scobie]

It's certainly a mess, and as an interested spectator from the other side of the world the fact that Trump can even be considered a possibility is jaw dropping. And as you say now he has a very realistic chance.

I do like Biden and think he has done a very good job in office, but the Dems have not played this well. It should have been made clear that he was a one term President and spent the last 3 years grooming and marketing a successor. That would not have looked good for Harris but she has to toe the party line. Now whatever they choose to do threatens to splinter their base which they cannot afford.

As for your Option 2 Jim, the 12th Amendment reads that, "[N]o person constitutionally ineligible to the office of president shall be eligible to that of vice president of the United States." So Obama is certainly ineligible. The fact that he cannot run and Trump can...a bit of a head scratcher.

[davewave]

Every word of Jim's post is on track.  Very sad.

[Awesome Donkey]

We're so screwed.

[zybex]

The fact the polls are even tied (or close to), implying that half the population actually supports a convicted lying narcissistic petulant child joke of a candidate is a testament to how screwed up the US is at the moment. Regardless of who wins this cycle, the future does not look bright as people don't pull towards the same general direction anymore, and are instead demonizing each other. I fear this will eventually lead to massive bloodshed, and religion fanaticism is a big driver in all of this. Handmaid's tale was supposed to be fiction...

I'll buy more popcorn.

[KingSparta]

I blame Jill Biden

He could be on a beach someplace in the Caribbean.

[davewave]

I would be up for Gretchen Witmer.  But if there is a chance Biden would be out most likely we will get Kamala.

[JimH]

I would be up for Gretchen Witmer.  But if there is a change we will get Kamala.

I think that Kamala is just the press talking so far, but she's a reasonable choice.  So is Witmer. 

It will be up to the delegates to decide.  Kamala needs to be careful not to get out in front of Biden until he decides to withdraw.

Oddly, I started thinking about Jesse Ventura.  He was a great governor here in Minnesota, and Trump would have trouble getting a handle on him.  It would make great theater, and that's apparently what a lot of people want.

[davewave]

My favorite Jesse moment is small, but I think telling.

At one event a woman came up to him and complained about the amount of her child support payment.   The governor asked her, where is the father.   She basically said he isn't in the picture and the government is in that position.   Jesse said, the state is not the father.

Very simple and pithy to my mind.   

[kensn]

I usually don't talk politics, but zybex's post reflects my feelings to a T. Social media has destroyed the human mind.

Ken

[Bob Sorel]

I will vote for a box of rocks before I vote for Trump. I am in 100% complete agreement with Jim, but will add that IF Biden decides to step down, my favorite candidate is Gavin Newsom (right now anyway), as he has the youth, experience, and the feistiness that I believe Democrats really need right now, and he doesn't take any sh!t from anybody. At this point in time, nice guys finish last.

As for your Option 2 Jim, the 12th Amendment reads that, "[N]o person constitutionally ineligible to the office of president shall be eligible to that of vice president of the United States." So Obama is certainly ineligible. The fact that he cannot run and Trump can...a bit of a head scratcher.

Trump is "constitutionally ineligible" by way of his participation in an insurrection, yet SCOTUS is letting him run anyway. This is where the biggest danger is right now, as the current SCOTUS is going out of its way to protect Trump, and every move by Democrats will be shut down by it.

The Supreme Court is now political, mainly due to his work and McConnell's.

McConnell is a huge snake in the grass, but going forward the people to watch out for the most are Steve Bannon and Steven Miller, as well as the rest of the people behind Project 2025.


My feelings about MAGA are best reflected with this joke I heard recently:

"How many MAGA supporters does it take to change a lightbulb?"

"None....Trump just tells them that he already fixed it and then the supporters cheer him in the dark."

[zybex]

I would also vote for Gavin Newsom.
I'll route my vote via Venezuela.

[JimH]

This seems headed toward an open convention, something not seen since around 1960.  Nominees, speeches, rounds and rounds of delegates voting.

Democracy.

[fitbrit]

As a non-American, I am heartened to see your reactions to Trump. Sad that every election is even more crucial to saving democracy as we know it than the previous one. Trump must be kept out. Otherwise Putin wins, and not just in Amercia, but in Europe and many other places too. I am afraid.

A big chunk of the population lacks critical thinking skills, mostly because it is not taught. Meanwhile media, especially social media, seduces them and makes them feel special, edgy and "in the know" as it feeds them lies. The algorithms are flinging everything to see what sticks. If you're a MAGA supporter, you can say whatever you want. If you don't like Trump, you'll see "both sides are equally bad" plastering your news feeds. Yet, we all know a non-voter may as well be a Trump voter in this election. He needs to be beaten in November.

And that raises the question - why tf is he not in jail? How corrupt is the system that someone hoarding national secrets, and possibly selling them, is not dealt with swiftly and decisively?

Thank you to posters so far for somewhat restoring my faith in your country and its electorate. It's bleak looking in from outside - I sympathise how it must be inside.

[Bob Sorel]

As a non-American, I am heartened to see your reactions to Trump. Sad that every election is even more crucial to saving democracy as we know it than the previous one. Trump must be kept out. Otherwise Putin wins, and not just in Amercia, but in Europe and many other places too. I am afraid.

A big chunk of the population lacks critical thinking skills, mostly because it is not taught. Meanwhile media, especially social media, seduces them and makes them feel special, edgy and "in the know" as it feeds them lies. The algorithms are flinging everything to see what sticks. If you're a MAGA supporter, you can say whatever you want. If you don't like Trump, you'll see "both sides are equally bad" plastering your news feeds. Yet, we all know a non-voter may as well be a Trump voter in this election. He needs to be beaten in November.

And that raises the question - why tf is he not in jail? How corrupt is the system that someone hoarding national secrets, and possibly selling them, is not dealt with swiftly and decisively?

Thank you to posters so far for somewhat restoring my faith in your country and its electorate. It's bleak looking in from outside - I sympathise how it must be inside.

George Carlin expressed the problem clearly when he said:

"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."

[kensn]

My feelings about MAGA are best reflected with this joke I heard recently:

"How many MAGA supporters does it take to change a lightbulb?"

"None....Trump just tells them that he already fixed it and then the supporters cheer him in the dark."

This.. People do not think for themselves anymore.....

[Awesome Donkey]

Oh boy, those two major flubs in Biden's press conference yesterday... stick a fork in him, he's done. I really hope they nip this issue in the bud sooner or later, or it's going to get really bad really quickly. I suspect they're going to drag it out though.

"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."

We are watching the movie Idiocracy coming true before our very eyes. We're sooooooooo screwed.

[zybex]

Another Carlin quote:
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”

Since an IQ of 100 is by definition the average, any large population will tend to have 50% of people below that. That correlates nicely with what we're seeing...

[jmone]

Mmm, as a non-US citizen it does seem your politics is currently extremely divisive and hate (rather than passion) filled by both sides.  This is not great.  Reading this thread saddens me as it denigrates some ~50% of your population.  50%.  Let that sink in.  And that 50% has the same opinion of the other half. 

...and now you are shooting your candidates.

Keep this up, and I'll get the King to revoke your Independance till you all learn to play nice.

[JimH]

I blame it on Rupert Murdoch.

[jmone]

That is fair enough.  We did export him from Oz, and you made him a US Citizen. 

[JimH]

Want him back?

[jmone]

Nope - International Rules of "Finders Keepers" says he is all yours now.

[jmone]

On a more serious note, it is not all doom and gloom.  About half the US votes Red, the other half blue.  Sometimes red wins, sometimes blue win.  Term limits ensure that one person cannot become a "dictator" for life.  You have had Trump before, and Biden now.  The world did not end either time.  Both sides need to learn that when you lose, it was not stolen.

The thing that does get me is how both parties end up with their candidates?  330+ Million people to choose from and this is the best that can be found?

[Bob Sorel]

On a more serious note, it is not all doom and gloom.  About half the US votes Red, the other half blue.  Sometimes red wins, sometimes blue win.  Term limits ensure that one person cannot become a "dictator" for life.  You have had Trump before, and Biden now.  The world did not end either time.  Both sides need to learn that when you lose, it was not stolen.

The thing that does get me is how both parties end up with their candidates?  330+ Million people to choose from and this is the best that can be found?

Trump plans on following the Project 2025 playbook, and if he is successful (and there is a good chance he will be), the term limits will be lifted and we will effectively get turned into a Banana Republic dictatorship with Trump and his cronies running the show and the oligarchs financing the whole thing, in much the same manner as Putin and Russia are doing now. This is why the temperature is so hot...we are facing the end of democracy, and I am NOT fear mongering here - the threat is very real. I know you are not an American, but you should Google "Project 2025" if you want to understand why this election is completely different than any previous election...we won't be able to vote the new government out in 4 years once they take over.

About 4 years ago I predicted that the US would enter Civil War 2, and I am sticking to that prediction, though I pray that I am wrong.

[jmone]

I understand how close and passionate many are in the US about this election.  I hope that an outsider's view may be more dispassionate.  Personally, I think your prayers will be fulfilled:
- Lifting the term limits would require a constitutional change.  0 Chance of that. 
- US will not be a Banana Republic regardless of who gets elected
- There will be no civil war
- There will be a vote in 4year time

This is the fear mongering and partisan hate I'm pushing back on both sides of the debate (regardless of if you are Red or Blue).  For good or bad, your constitutional system is simply too robust for a 4 year term of any president to destroy.  The USA will NOT be like Russia/Putin.   

I'm old enough to have heard the tired argument that "this is the most important election in our history" more times than I can count. 

You will not like this, but I think this is a picture of your new President by the way.  He just won the election.  I'd predict that the following President will be a Democrat (though I truly hope both parties put up far better candidates in 4 years times). 

[Images removed by retired forum administrator]

[JimH]

Is Australia still a "Constitutional" Monarchy?

edit by jmone to add "Constitutional"

[jmone]

Yup.  Long live the King.

[jmone]

[Images removed by retired forum administrator]

Too close to the bone?

[JimH]

Too close to the bone?

Trying to avoid burn-in.  Old equipment.

[jmone]

Fair Enough.  For disclosure I'd consider myself a "Classical Liberal Democrat" so I do not align with either of your (or my) mainstream parties.

[Bob Sorel]

I judge Trump based on his own words, his own actions, and not on slanted media reports on either side, nor on the opinions of people on social media. I have known him for about 20 years and know a LOT more about him than the average person, and some of my knowledge is first hand.

I got involved in a condo deal some years before he became president in 2016 with one of his so-called real estate companies, this one in Tampa Florida. I wanted to buy the condo as a retirement getaway for my wife and I, and I  really admired Trump at the time as a top notch businessman and real estate developer, so I thought I was getting involved in a really good deal, as he pitched it, through his employees,  presenting pictures, documentation, phone calls from employees, etc. as a project in which he would build one of the nicest condos "like none you've ever seen before", and he was going to build supporting business buildings in the area to turn it into a real luxury deal. He actually pitched the project quite a few times on his show, The Apprentice, giving his pitch in front of one of those table top 3D scale models that you see in the movies so often.

To make an already long story short, I did a LOT of research while this deal was in progress but before I actually shelled out the $130,000 that it was going to cost me for this prime deal, I started to get cold feet. At the last minute before wiring him the money, I decided that it just didn't feel right, so I backed out...THANK GOD I DID! That would have been money that I would never see again and I would have had nothing to show for it. Rather than me providing the "slanted, disgruntled" details, I leave it to you to Google his Tampa condo project for yourself.

I will say no more on the subject.

As far as the points that you listed, let me address them:

Lifting the term limits would require a constitutional change.  0 Chance of that.

Sorry, but you are incorrect...do your own research...there are ways around it through the Supreme Court...don't take my word for it.

US will not be a Banana Republic regardless of who gets elected

I will give you that one...we don't grow bananas here as far as I know...LOL. But once again, research Project 2025 and you will gain a greater understanding of how it is possible to turn the US into a dictatorship. The false belief that "It can't happen here" is what makes this situation so dangerous.

There will be no civil war

God, I really really hope you are right, but history proves that it can. The first Civil War was not going to happen either....but it did. Again, the best way to understand is to do research.

There will be a vote in 4year time

Same as above...I really really hope there will be another election. Throughout US history, the ability to elect a new Commander in Chief has been paramount in effecting change. The answer to this depends on the balance of power in the Senate and House, the biggest hurdle being to get a 2/3 majority in the Senate. And, BTW, there are ways to get around the Constitutional provision by taking the matter to the Supreme Court, and as it stands RIGHT NOW, Trump has 2/3 of it in his pocket (6 of 9 judges).

And let's not forget that this same Supreme Court just awarded Trump (and any other president) COMPLETE AND TOTAL IMMUNITY from prosecution for acts deemed to be "core Constitutional powers" AND complete immunity for acts considered to be "Official Acts" of his presidency, BUT the Supreme Court did not define what acts are considered "Official", so it will be fought in the courts, eventually landing in, you guessed it, the same Supreme Court that just granted that a president is above the law. So now the Supreme Court and the president can work hand in hand deciding what the president can do and what he can't, and since they are both from the same stable, you can rest assured that they will be much more inclined to side with Trump than with any Democrat.

I'm sorry for the rant, but this is just a tiny tiny part of the stuff I have uncovered through tons of research, not something I heard from Network News, social media "news" and people, and friends and aquaintances. I have been doing this for over 20 years, and that is why I am scared, because this time the Boy Who Cried Wolf is facing an actual wolf and nobody believes him because of all of his previous false alarms.

I hope none of this happens and we can all share a laugh about it at some later time. Heck, I'll fly down to the land down under and tie one on with ya, my treat, if everything goes well!

[Awesome Donkey]

I'd honestly say we're in a bit of a "cold" civil war already. And I don't think the conflicts between both sides is something they would be able to resolve in a satisfactory manner that everyone can agree to unfortunately.

I don't have a good feeling about the future (especially with all this crazy stuff happening the decade or two), because it feels like everything is building up towards something and something has got to give eventually. It's just a question of when and how.

[Bob Sorel]

Exactly! You really have to live here to appreciate what is happening. Whatever way this election goes, there will be some trouble one way or the other. I have seen fights break out just because they heard someone "on the other side" talking a bit too loud and they didn't agree with what they heard. In my 70 years here, I have never experienced anything even remotely close to the current tense atmosphere.

[JimH]

The Johnson years from 1963 to 1968 were pretty bad.  War in Viet Nam, Civil Rights protests, Watts Riots, bloody Chicago Democratic convention.  Then followed by Nixon ...

We didn't have a President who served two full terms after Eisenhower (1952 to 1960) until Reagan (1980 to 1988).  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_presidents_of_the_United_States

Bumper stickers then:

"America -- Love it or Leave it"

"My Country, Right or Wrong"

[Peace symbol] Footprint of the American Chicken"

"I'd Rather Be a Roper than a Doper"

[JimH]

Fortunately, Elon Musk has the answers:
https://deadline.com/2024/07/elon-musk-fully-endorses-donald-trump-for-president-after-pennsylvaia-shooting-1236009762/

[jmone]

I look forward to a beer with Bob!  That to me seems like the best remedy.  Chuck on a barbie, get some of the locals around for a good time and have a heated argument about how our footy team got robbed by the refs last week.    Note: Don't do this in the EU - that will cause a riot!

[Skerik]

Re: Project 2025 - no argument that it is basically a frightening blueprint for a Christian Nationalist makeover of US government that would do permanent damage.

Trump has recently distanced himself from it, saying he doesn't know the people who created it (which of course is a lie) and he disagrees with parts of it (not sure what parts). I'm not entirely sure what to make of that. One of the articles I found on this suggested a reason that does make sense to me - it's not "his". For better or worse (usually worse) his ego has a huge impact on how he does things, and having something a different group set up doesn't really fit well in his mentality. It might actually be better for the country that a carefully crafted plan is not what he'll do, as his impulsive style hasn't led to many results most of the time.

[JustinChase]

Sadly, if Trump gets into office once again (whether he wins the vote or not), this great experiment (Democracy) will come to an end.

He almost got away with taking over and becoming a dictator for life last time, and the judges he helped to power (Supreme court and Federal) have worked diligently for the last 3 1/2 years to circumvent the things that kept it from happening back then.  If he takes office, he will die in office, and will have rigged the system so that his chosen will take over, and no amount of "voting" will remove the Republican rule in my lifetime.

Civil war will be the only way of changing the power structure, and that's likely to result in the US becoming multiple countries.

I really hope this does not come to pass, but the fact that it's even possible signals to me that "Democracy" is not going to last long in the US, no matter who the next President is.

[JimH]

I want to see him run against Adam Schiff.

[jmone]

I'd rather see some younger candidates.... like anyone not yet eligible for Social Security retirement benefits would be a start

[fitbrit]

Sadly, I am with Awesome Donkey and Bob on this one.
Trump has tried to distance himself from Project 2025 because as awareness of it grew, people became uneasy about him. However, there is video of him not very long ago praising the Heritage Foundation (?), the architects for Project 2025. We're in a bad situation here.

[JimH]

It's now being reported that Biden is seriously considering dropping out.  Things could get really interesting very quickly.

[Matt]

Biden bowed out!

[Awesome Donkey]

The problem is, I don't believe as-is Biden would've stood a chance against Trump, especially after the debate and especially after the assassination attempt. Even worse I believe Kamala Harris stands less of a chance against Trump. If she becomes the nominee post DNC, Trump won, no doubt about it.

I wonder if anyone else is going to throw their hat into the arena to try to take the convention and claim delegates? Bernie Sanders? Is he still popular with the younger voters? How's his health compared to Biden?

We're so, really, definitely screwed.

[zybex]

I think many will vote for anyone that is not Biden or Trump. Polls show Kamala ahead of Trump, she has a good shot. Not the ideal candidate at this time, but at least she's young.

[JimH]

I want to give Biden a nod for trying to fight the odds, but in the end, deciding that the country needed a change.

If it's Kamala, then fine.  Her polling against trump is about even with Biden's at this time.

I can think of several others who would also be good.  Nobody's perfect.

What's important now is that we have a careful discussion about what we want and that we let our leaders know.

The corrupt (political) Supreme Court and the abortion issue may take on more importance now.  I think many don't realize how the blatantly political appointments have led to losing some of our rights.

But, Thank You Joe Biden! 

[JimH]

"“Crooked Joe Biden was not fit to run for President, and is certainly not fit to serve — And never was!” Mr. Trump wrote on social media shortly after Mr. Biden announced that he was ending his campaign."  -- NY Times

Let's hope Trump bows out now.  Sanity is a necessary quality for serving as President.  Honesty helps.  Decency.  We've had many excellent Republicans in the office.

[Awesome Donkey]

I think many will vote for anyone that is not Biden or Trump. Polls show Kamala ahead of Trump, she has a good shot. Not the ideal candidate at this time, but at least she's young.

I don't think that's the issue. I think with her it's the same issue Hillary Clinton had (well, to an extent, her other skeletons in her closet also attributed to her loss) in 2016 and it's something I don't think most people understand really.... there's a lot of people out there not ready to have a woman President. Yes, even in this day and age. I don't think it'll happen (well, if it'll happen depending on what happens like Trump getting elected and Project 2025 being rolled out) at least for another generation or two. Unless some miracle happens, which I don't think it will.

Let's hope Trump bows out now.  Sanity is a necessary quality for serving as President.  Honesty helps.  Decency.  We've had many excellent Republicans in the office.

In my honest opinion, sanity bowed out as a necessary quality a long time ago sadly or else we wouldn't be in the shape we're in now. Hell, sanity and decency in general seems to be part of a dying breed. I would highly welcome both back right now with open arms though...

[JimH]

How the nomination process works:  https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,139300.0.html