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[KingSparta]

I Just Heard On The News CD Sales Are Up 13% over Last Year

[LonWar]

I guess a lot of people are finding those illegal sites more of a pain then they are worth...

 

[KingSparta]

I guess a lot of people are finding those illegal sites more of a pain then they are worth...

 

Or the Legal ones since all the files are protected and you can't do what you will with them (like burn them to CD to play in your car).

[pbreet]

The legal download sites are useless to me.  The files are lossy and restricted.

My cd purchases are up, but mainly used cd's from Amazon and ebay.

[LonWar]

Yes Ebay is such a great place to buy cd's.... So is used cd stores..

I was in Sunrise in Canada a few day's ago, I saw a 3 disc Rolling Stones Singles Collection for 82.00 cdn... What in the world are they smoking!!!

I bought the same cd from ebay for around 15 us, = about 20 ish canadian...

[EpF]

IMHO, a cd illlegally copied does not necessarily mean a cd sale lost, as long as we're not talking about organised bootlegging for profit.  It is also possible that the greater distribution of music through illegal copying also contributes to cd sales - again, once we're talking about individual people sharing music among friends or downloading stuff from the internet.  

Personally, I'm quite attached to the object format - I like cd's, epecially if the artist has produced a nice cover design.  I think that there might be a problem for the major record labels and distributors in the future, when the object format is not as deeply ingrained in people's psyches, and when undoubtedly the availability, quality and portability of compressed music and video will be much greater...

[pbreet]

I understand some people liking the physical cd.  My friend is a collector, he loves looking at this shelves and shelves of cds... (I like looking at my MediaCenter list of music on my monitor)

I buy used to save money, since I rip the cd, put it on a shelf and never touch it again.  I'd gladly buy on-line, if what I could get was lossless and I could burn car cd's as needed, since I have no real use for the physical cd.

[DocLotus]

It's a lot like Shareware software.

I download a LOT of it but end up keeping less then 10%.

Out of that I may purchase only 5% or so.

My policy is... If I like it & find myself using it, then I buy it.

Otherwise I dump it

The same can be said for music downloads.

[Bryan]

Down in one study and up in another!   I read an article just a couple weeks ago where the labels were crying about an industrywide decline of 9% and conveniently took that opportunity to blame it on illegal file trading..   Funny that the economy was in a recession at the same time and sales of just about everthing declined somwhere around 9% as well..  

I think just the past few years after learning that I can put all my music on a computer (and put up the CD's) has in itself energized my interest (and purchases) in music more than usual.  

I agree with the quality and lack of flexibility concerns though.  The current crop of services aren't worth the money or the potential trouble dealing with restrictions and licensing.  

Bryan

[DocLotus]

If the industry really wants to increase sales then they should reduce the price of a CD.

I'm beginning to see some DVD movies selling for less the most CD's.  That makes no since to me at all.

I recall that Best Buy tried to sue the record industry a couple of years back for keeping the price of CD's artificially high. Sony overpowered Bust Buy & threaten to stop selling to them unless they dropped it.

On top of, they treat the artist that made the music like c**p.

As you can see, I have no love for the record industry.

They are getting exactly what they deserve

[JimH]

I recall that Best Buy tried to sue the record industry a couple of years back for keeping the price of CD's artificially high. Sony overpowered Best Buy & threaten to stop selling to them unless they dropped it.

I think it was more than Best Buy (other retailers, too) and that they won.

[DocLotus]

So why are many CD's still selling for $14 - $16 ?

I'm beginning to see DVD's for that price (and lower).

[Sauzee]

If the industry really wants to increase sales then they should reduce the price of a CD.

I'm beginning to see some DVD movies selling for less the most CD's.  That makes no since to me at all.

I recall that Best Buy tried to sue the record industry a couple of years back for keeping the price of CD's artificially high. Sony overpowered Bust Buy & threaten to stop selling to them unless they dropped it.

On top of, they treat the artist that made the music like c**p.

As you can see, I have no love for the record industry.

They are getting exactly what they deserve

I agree 101%.  IN the UK the record companies' are doing the same thing with www.play.com.  I read  that they have managed to get play.com to increase the average selling price of a CD by $3. Their CD's are about 25% cheaper than Amazon - but not for long.

Ironically, the way they manage to sell cheaper is that they import CD's from the US.  If you think prices are bad in US then come to the UK.  Non discounted  CD's are about £15 ($27).

We've been getting ripped off for years.

[DocLotus]

It's kind of like the drug industry... you buy a certain product here (in the USA) for $100.

*OR*

The drug company sells the same drug to Canada who in turn sells it back to a US citizen for $50.

Case in point... Both industries are ripping everybody off with as high a price as the market will bear.

It's not about product, it's not about serving the customer, it's about profit.

I don't know about you but I've about had it with both industries

That's one of the neat things about MC... you are getting a great product at a fair price.

Now, if only the music & drug industries could do the same.  

[pbreet]

Case in point... Both industries are ripping everybody off with as high a price as the market will bear.

It's not about product, it's not about serving the customer, it's about profit.

EXACTLY, and without profit, no drug company would ever develop and test a new product.   Drug companies are in business to make money, which they do by providing drugs which consumers will purchase.  

Charging what the market will bear is what makes our economy work so well (excluding the creeping socialism).  Companies do that with the products they sell, an we do that when we choose whom to work for.  Assuming equal working condictions, I work for whomever pays me the most.

you are getting a great product at a fair price.

Now, if only the music & drug industries could do the same.  

Capitalism works.  If we don't like the price of a cd, we shouldn't buy it.  If we think the price is too high, that doesn't give us the right to steal it, just to not purchase it.  If we do buy it for their price, then it was a price we thought was acceptable, else we wouldn't have bought it.

When we sell things on EBAY, we are getting EXACTLY what the market will bear.  Sellers don't charge less if someone bids higher than expected, if a bidder bids a price, that means it's a fair price for them.

[DocLotus]

Yes, I agree with everything you are saying, competition is the American way & makes the economy go, except...

* Why are there so many people going to Canada & Mexico for drugs including some State governments?  Because they simply cost too much.  The cost is beyond any reasonable profit for the drug companies.  Many retired persons simply can not afford the outlandish prices on many drugs.  At one time my father was spending $800 a month on drugs... that sucks the life out of ones retirement.

* When CD's first came out, vinyl records were selling for around $8 US; CD's were selling for $14 -16.  Everyone said that as soon as the novelty wore off & the manufactures got the production rates up the price would drop to that of the vinyl records that they were replacing.  That never happened; the price stayed artificially high.  It's a funny thing, it actually cost much less to stamp a CD then to stamp a vinyl record.

* Yes, competition is good for the economy but when a new car today cost three times what I paid for my first house & twice that I paid for my last house I begin to question the amount of profit involved.  Another way to look at it is what percentage of ones income does a new car cost?  Today that percentage is much, much higher then it was 10 or 15 years ago.  In fact many people can not afford to purchase a really nice car.  A few years back there was not that much difference between the low end & the top end in actual dollars.  The last new Corvette I bought cost $3,500; today's Corvettes go for over $40,000.  That's over 11 times the cost but few people's salaries have increased that much over the same time period.

* I guess my point is that some products are increasing in cost at a much higher rate then the rate of inflation or the rate of most people's abilities to pay for them.

* The computer industry is the best example of how it should work.  Competition not only has produced more & better products but at the same time has drastically lowered the price.  My first 5 MHz PC cost $4,500 in 1983 & only ran DOS; my last 2 GHz PC cost only 1/3 as much plus it does soooo much more; it runs everything.  Now, that's competition.  That's what the record & drug industries have never learned or simply don't care to learn.

[pbreet]

* Why are there so many people going to Canada & Mexico for drugs including some State governments?  Because they simply cost too much.  The cost is beyond any reasonable profit for the drug companies.  Many retired persons simply can not afford the outlandish prices on many drugs.  At one time my father was spending $800 a month on drugs... that sucks the life out of ones retirement.

That one is confusing, but I'll bet it's some government intervention in the marketplace that is keeping the price differential.  Does the US have higher taxes on those drugs, or are the drug prices artifically held down in Canada with government subsidies? (which of course is paid by the taxpayers, so the lower prices i not lower at all, since someone pays the difference, the taxpayers)

* When CD's first came out, vinyl records were selling for around $8 US; CD's were selling for $14 -16.  Everyone said that as soon as the novelty wore off & the manufactures got the production rates up the price would drop to that of the vinyl records that they were replacing.  That never happened; the price stayed artificially high.  It's a funny thing, it actually cost much less to stamp a CD then to stamp a vinyl record.

It confuses me too, but assuming there is no illegal price fixing (to be determined), then they are charging what they think the market will bear, and they have that right, just as I have the right to not purchase their products.  Just because a consumer wants something, does not create a god given right to purchase it at THE PRICE THEY WANT.

* Yes, competition is good for the economy but when a new car today cost three times what I paid for my first house & twice that I paid for my last house I begin to question the amount of profit involved.

The manufactures set the prices, we consumers choose if we are willing to buy.  If we don't buy, they go out of business or lower their prices.

Another way to look at it is what percentage of ones income does a new car cost?  Today that percentage is much, much higher then it was 10 or 15 years ago.

That is not a fair comparo at all, our incomes are WAY higher than 10-15 years ago.

 In fact many people can not afford to purchase a really nice car.

That that is a problem why?

 A few years back there was not that much difference between the low end & the top end in actual dollars.  The last new Corvette I bought cost $3,500; today's Corvettes go for over $40,000.

What was your income then and now?

 That's over 11 times the cost but few people's salaries have increased that much over the same time period.

Some have , some have not.  If they can get 40k for that car, good for them.  If you were selling those cars, and could get 40k, would YOU charge 30k, I think not.

* I guess my point is that some products are increasing in cost at a much higher rate then the rate of inflation or the rate of most people's abilities to pay for them.

Agreed some have, others are WAY down, consider computers, audio equipment, look at how much BETTER the cars are, how much more reliable they are.  And ability to pay?  There is no god given right to purchase things.  There are things I want and can afford, so I get them.  There are things I want and can't afford, I'm not mad or bitter, if I want them bad enough, I'll save for them or work harder and earn more money.

* The computer industry is the best example of how it should work.  Competition not only has produced more & better products but at the same time has drastically lowered the price.  My first 5 MHz PC cost $4,500 in 1983 & only ran DOS; my last 2 GHz PC cost only 1/3 as much plus it does soooo much more; it runs everything.  Now, that's competition.  That's what the record & drug industries have never learned or simply don't care to learn.

Like you, I wish the music and drug industry had the same economic pressures that the computer industry has, but they don't.  It costs billions to develop and test a new drug, why would they do it if there was not a financial return on the investment?  And for every drug that gets approved, many others are not, but they did spend the money to make the attempt.

In economic life there will be items that go up and down in price and quality, all based on supply and demand (assuming our creeping socialism says OUT of the marketplace).

[KingSparta]

When CD's first came out, vinyl records were selling for around $8 US; CD's were selling for $14 -16.

well i remember it a bit dif, albums were around $4.00 and cd's were around $7.00

[DocLotus]

Part of the problem in the US is that there is an ever widening gap between the "Haves" & the "Have-not's".  This has been brought on (along with other things) by the loss of higher paying jobs to low paying overseas countries such as Mexico, the Philippines, China, & other countries.

I do agree that this is necessary for a company to stay competitive by keeping manufacturing costs down. A lot of people have a problem with that but, I do not as it is a fact of manufacturing survival.

But, the end result is we now have a higher percentage of people working in the service industry such as McDonalds for next to nothing.  We now have a much higher percentage of the population that can no longer afford the same luxuries that our parents could.  These people can not afford a new car at any price.  This is why the used car market is booming which also drives up the price of used cars.  These same people also have little to look forward to as far as retirement is concerned.  Again, their parents probably had a better retirement then they will.  This is also why there is a health insurance crisis in the US today; a very large percentage of the population simply can't afford the extremely high cost of health insurance.  These same people are hard pressed to afford a new home of any kind (one reason apartment rentals are way up). You couple this to the fact that few companies no longer make any real effort to keep people long term; many people jump from job to job never building up a pension or having any long term health insurance that they can depend on.

The remaining jobs are the high paying ones (usually in the tech industry) that employs a much smaller percentage of the population then does the service industry.  To them, spending $30.000 - 40,000+ on a new car or $180,000+ on a new home is not a problem.

I don't know what the answer is but I am glad to be out of it & retired.  I worked for GE as a regional manager for 28 years & have a company pension plus Social Security checks each month so I'm one of the lucky few..

I fear that a lot of our people will not far so well as I have.

[KingSparta]

The remaining jobs are the high paying ones (usually in the tech industry)

alot of layoff's in the NC research triangle park, most of the high paying jobs are now in the employment line.

[pbreet]

Part of the problem in the US is that there is an ever widening gap between the "Haves" & the "Have-not's".  This has been brought on (along with other things) by the loss of higher paying jobs to low paying overseas countries such as Mexico, the Philippines, China, & other countries.

I don't believe that.  The liberal press always likes to quote that, they have quoted that for all my life, every time they get the chance, I simply don't believe it.

I do agree that this is necessary for a company to stay competitive by keeping manufacturing costs down. A lot of people have a problem with that but, I do not as it is a fact of manufacturing survival.

Right, unless they keeps costs down, and be competitive, there are not jobs for anyone, on or off shore.

But, the end result is we now have a higher percentage of people working in the service industry such as McDonalds for next to nothing.  We now have a much higher percentage of the population that can no longer afford the same luxuries that our parents could.

I disagree.  The problem as I see it is that these people leave home and IMMEDIATELY expect to lieve like their parents did, whichout earning it.  It took me many years to feel like I can live like I want to, it took hard work and sacrifice.  It was hard to get that down payment for my first home, but I did without and saved and did it.  Now we offer low interest loans for first time home buyers, so they don't have to struggle (and guess who pays for this?  Me).  They want to have cable tv, and a car, and go out to eat, and a Playstation, and a cell phone, and then complain about how hard it it so hard get a house.  

 These people can not afford a new car at any price.

If they won't work hard enough or smart enough to earn the money, then they don't deserve a car.

This is why the used car market is booming which also drives up the price of used cars.  These same people also have little to look forward to as far as retirement is concerned.

Either did I, so that's why I've saved and saved and saved to I will have some thing when I retire.  I will never feel bad for anyone that never saved and then lives in poverty during their senior years.

Again, their parents probably had a better retirement then they will.  This is also why there is a health insurance crisis in the US today; a very large percentage of the population simply can't afford the extremely high cost of health insurance.

I disagree, I maintain that most are NOT WILLING TO SACRIFICE to purchase it.  They are not willing to give up their Playstations, and big screen tv's and cell phones..... (see the list above).

 These same people are hard pressed to afford a new home of any kind (one reason apartment rentals are way up).

I disagree.  I recently heard that personal home ownership is at the highest level in American history.

 You couple this to the fact that few companies no longer make any real effort to keep people long term; many people jump from job to job never building up a pension or having any long term health insurance that they can depend on.

I've jumped from job to job, and earned a healty pay increase each time, which pays for my health insurance and my retirement savings.

The remaining jobs are the high paying ones (usually in the tech industry) that employs a much smaller percentage of the population then does the service industry.  To them, spending $30.000 - 40,000+ on a new car or $180,000+ on a new home is not a problem.

RIGHT, because THEY EARNED IT.  They WORKED for it.

I don't know what the answer is

I do.  Eliminate almost all welfare programs, and the ones that remain, must validiate the need.  We just give out money, we never ask if they are "needy" because they are stupid (which is what I believe in most cases).

To be on welfare (food stamps, heating bills assistance, the list goes on and on) used to be shameful, now it's and "entitlement".  No wonder so many prefer to take rather than pay their way.

I am so sick and tired of earning my living and then being force to pay for all the lazy people who won't work and pay their own way in life.

[DocLotus]

I bet a lot of those jobs went overseas  ?

Maybe wishful thinking but...

I keep thinking that there will be some new incredible product that will be developed & made in the US that will employ many people in higher paying good jobs for life so they can get the health insurance & retirement benefits that some of us older people enjoy.

In the past it seemed that there was always something that pulled us up such as the great auto boom of the 20's, 30's, late 40's, 50's, & 60's where auto workers had high paying (usually union) jobs.  It's funny, the Japanese auto worker now makes more then our Detroit auto workers do.

Or the general employment boom we had after WWII.

For awhile it looked like the computer boom of the 80's might be it but now it is mostly produced offshore.

The airline industry looked very good... before deregulation that is.

Today you better have a degree & not just any old BS if you hope to get a good paying job.  Sadly, many of our citizens can not afford the every increasing cost of college.  It often comes down to going to school or paying the rent.

[DocLotus]

A lot of states like Texas where I live have cut welfare in half (or more).  In fact, in Texas it is now very hard to get on welfare.  The requirements are very high & the benefits have been lowered.  But the cost of drugs has more then doubled the cost of welfare each year.  No mater how much Texas lowers welfare, increased drug costs always adds that & more to the operating cost.  That is why states are looking to Canada.  Yes, Canada is socialized medicine that is supported by the Canadian government. The Canadians have a higher standard of living then we do in the US so the cost to the citizen is irrelative.

It has gotten so bad in Houston that Ben Taub hospital (the county owned free hospital district used for emergency room service) has been flooded with so many people unable to pay that they are on the verge of draining the cities coffers.

The low fees & free fee city operated clinics around the city (operated by Ben Taub) has seen a 300 percent increase in just the last 2 years. They are at the breaking point.

The problem in Houston is that there are so many poor people that simply can't pay.  Many of these are immigrants from Mexico (which is a whole nether story).  The first generation ones are the problem but we can't run the city without them (low pay you know).

The second & third generation ones seem to do much better often going to college & starting business.

The problem is we have so many new arrivals each month that it is on the verge of overwhelming the system.

Situations vary from city to city across the country, but many cities have their own unique problems.  Many of these problems are based on one undeniable fact that there are not enough good paying jobs in this country any more to provide the tax base needed to run a city (or State) government as we once could.

It's one thing to be well off as we are & to simply ignore the issue but I guarantee it is not going away by looking the other way.

[pbreet]

The airline industry looked very good... before deregulation that is.

Deregulation may not have been good for the workers, but it's great for consumers.  The cost of flying is way down since deregulation (if inflation is factored in).  That regulation artifically kept prices high, which paid the salaries of the airline workes, so the customers were paying the wages (as they always do).  Same with telephone deregulation, it may have been a good idea when implemented (and I agree it was), but it was time for it to be removed in 1984.  That deregulation may have been bad for the telco workers, but it's great for consumers.  Qwest's basic rate for long distance is 5 cents a minute, what was it back in 84?  And we no longer hear AT&T saying "what color black phone do you want?".

Today you better have a degree & not just any old BS if you hope to get a good paying job.

Define "good paying job"?

 Sadly, many of our citizens can not afford the every increasing cost of college.  It often comes down to going to school or paying the rent.

Or maybe giving up the cell phone, and going out to dinner, and giving up the playstation, the broadband, the beer, the smokes, the car, the new furniture, the designer jeans, the lottery tickets,...

I have the nice cars and the nice house and all the great toys (like MC).  And I earned every cent of it all, it was hard to get here, *d*a*m*n*, I worked hard, but it was worth it.  And guess what, I have no degree, I'm 46 years old.

If I believed I was "special", then maybe I'd understand our current "it's not my fault" welfare state, but I'm not.  I just was willing to work hard and it paid off, like it usually does.  No family money, no college, just hard work.  

Thomas Jefferson once said "I believe in good luck, and the harder I work, the more I have of it".

[lise]

You guys definately have to see The Corporation, a new Canadian documentary. Hint: pbreet will hate it.

It's not about product, it's not about serving the customer, it's about profit.

According to the documentary, a US corporation is required, by law to have profit as it's goal.

Capitalism works.  If we don't like the price of a cd, we shouldn't buy it.  If we think the price is too high, that doesn't give us the right to steal it, just to not purchase it.  If we do buy it for their price, then it was a price we thought was acceptable, else we wouldn't have bought it.

Funny how this was quoted as a reply to thoughts about drug companies.  Replace "cd" with "drug" in the quotation, and get a good laugh.

--A Canadian citizen who is very happy to work and pay taxes to support welfare programs and health care

[pbreet]

Yes, Canada is socialized medicine that is supported by the Canadian government.

Correction: it's paid for by the Canadian taxpayers, no government can give anything to anyone, without first taking it from some one else.

The Canadians have a higher standard of living then we do in the US so the cost to the citizen is irrelative.

Where do you get this fact from?

It has gotten so bad in Houston that Ben Taub hospital (the county owned free hospital district used for emergency room service) has been flooded with so many people unable to pay that they are on the verge of draining the cities coffers.

Or unwilling to pay?  Since they know if they refuse, the service will still be given for free, since it's not welfare, it's an "entitlement".

The problem in Houston is that there are so many poor people that simply can't pay.

Or won't pay, (see above)

It's one thing to be well off as we are & to simply ignore the issue but I guarantee it is not going away by looking the other way.

Robert Ringer's Full Employment Quick as Hell Theory - Eliminate all social programs, and we'll have full employment, quick as hell....

[pbreet]

You guys definately have to see The Corporation, a new Canadian documentary. Hint: pbreet will hate it.

It's not about product, it's not about serving the customer, it's about profit.

According to the documentary, a US corporation is required, by law to have profit as it's goal.

That is false, there is no "law", but it is an unwritten rule, there can be no business without profit, it will go out of business.

Capitalism works.  If we don't like the price of a cd, we shouldn't buy it.  If we think the price is too high, that doesn't give us the right to steal it, just to not purchase it.  If we do buy it for their price, then it was a price we thought was acceptable, else we wouldn't have bought it.

Funny how this was quoted as a reply to thoughts about drug companies.  Replace "cd" with "drug" in the quotation, and get a good laugh.

Still makes sense to me.  In the final analysis, nothing is free, so what someone gets without working for it, someone else is forced to pay for it.

--A Canadian citizen who is very happy to work and pay taxes to support welfare programs and health care

I respect that, if you are willing to pay (assuming you pay more than you receive), then that is what you should do.  It becomes wrong when some band together to FORCE others to support the welfare projects of the few.

[Matt]

Just have to say that I think it's important to feel thankful for good fortune instead of entitled to it.  Remember that a lot of hard working people may not enjoy that same fortuity -- due to no fault of their own except bad luck or being born with less of a full deck.

BTW, there is a law that a business must have a profit motive.  My mother-in-law account always shoots down my do-nothing-write-everything-off think tank corporation idea with that law

[pbreet]

Just have to say that I think it's important to feel thankful for good fortune instead of entitled to it.  Remember that a lot of hard working people may not enjoy that same fortuity -- due to no fault of their own except bad luck

If it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have no luck at all...

I don't believe in bad luck or good luck, either means we are not  in control of our own lives, meaning we are not responsible for our successes and failures.  I take credit for both, enjoy the successes I earned, and learn from the failures, leading to more successes.

or being born with less of a full deck.

That is one area where I am understanding and willing.

BTW, there is a law that a business must have a profit motive.

Without profit, there is no company expansion, no new jobs, no new MC10....  

[DocLotus]

The last world poll on standards of living that was taken about two years ago, the US was 11th behind some rather amazing countries.

Sad to say, we are not as hot as we sometimes think we are.

Its one thing to be born, raised, & educated in the US; we know the system & pretty much what we can & can not do.  We generally know the laws & for the most part respect the effort the police make in controlling crime.  Overall, it works pretty well for a US citizen.  This provides a US citizen a real head start in life.

Take the tale of two emigrant cultures; Asian & Latino.

Asians are pretty much like us.  Many of them that come to this country are educated or are in the process of getting an education.  They are hard working because that is what they have been taught.  When they come to this country they usually have some skills, money available & a support system already here in the form of family, or other Asian community members & originations.  They respect, but don't fear, the police.

Latinos often come to this country alone, with no education, no funds, & no support & they do not speak the language.  They are truly alone.  In addition they often fear the police as the cops in a lot of Latino countries are very corrupt.  They come wanting only one thing, to work; and work they do... at minimum wage.  Unlike the Asians, they have no real skills as there are so few skilled jobs in Mexico.  If they can't do it with a hammer, a screwdriver, & a pair of pliers, they can't do the job.  It is usually the second or third generation Latino that makes the American dream come true.  Meanwhile we have thousands of Latinos with, and yes... no TV, no car, & no phone, no computer games, no computer, nothing but the shirt on his back.  These are the people that are flooding the hospitals & the welfare system.

I suppose we can say some crass thing such as "Eliminate all social programs, and we'll have full employment, quick as hell....".  I know of no enlighten society that is willing to turn its back on the poor, on the indigent, or the sick.  We as human beings have an obligation to make an effect to take care of those who can't take care of themselves.  Hopefully, a well run system will help them to get on their own feet as soon as possible so many of them can finally get of off welfare.  Problem is, for each one that gets off, two more new emigrants come on.  The minority is now the majority in Houston.  Latinos are now the largest single ethnic group in Houston.

[pbreet]

The last world poll on standards of living that was taken about two years ago, the US was 11th behind some rather amazing countries.

Wow....and sad...

This provides a US citizen a real head start in life.

Agreed.

Latinos often come to this country alone, with no education, no funds, & no support & they do not speak the language.  They are truly alone.

I absolutely believe the US has the right to control our borders and immigration.    Anyone who comes here illegally, is a criminal and should be deported immediately.  It boggles my mind that we don't do this, immediately.  I don't care if they just arrived or have managed to avoid capture for year, deport them.

And even more mind boggling is that we give illegals access to our health and welfare systems.  Gotta be a liberal thing....

I suppose we can say some crass thing such as "Eliminate all social programs, and we'll have full employment, quick as hell....".  I know of no enlighten society that is willing to turn its back on the poor, on the indigent, on the sick.  We as human beings have an obligation to make an effect to take care of those who can't take care of themselves.

Maybe.... who chooses who is needy or who is deserving?  I would never give anyone cash, ever.  No food stamps to sell or buy better cuts of meat than I buy.  Soup kitchens, they want to eat, get up, go to the soup kitchen, bring the family, stand in line and get nutritious food, not good food, but nutrituious food.  We have to make it embarassing, so there is some incentive to do better for themselves.  I hate the word "entitlement".

 Hopefully, a well run system will help them to get on their own feet as soon as possible so many of them can finally get of off welfare.  Problem is, for each one that gets off, two more new emigrants come on

Deport all illegals.

.  The minority is now the majority in Houston.  Latinos are now the largest single ethnic group in Houston.

If they are American citizens, I have no opinion on that either way.

[DocLotus]

Texas, like many states have really tightened up on welfare in the last 5 - 10 years.

It is much harder to get food or other aid; you have to fill out a lot of forms, answer a lot of questions; then a waiting period of up to three weeks while the state checks you out to make sure you are really deserving.

They have not used food stamps for several years in Texas.  All purchases are made with a Lone Star card that is tightly controlled.  Each transaction is computer validated.  This has nearly eliminated the selling & trading of the old food stamps for cash or non essential food items.

Deporting all illegals unless they are American citizens simply would kill a lot of the services we enjoy in the Southwest.  That is not a doable thing.  The Latino is so entrenched into our society that trying to remove them at this late date would wreck havoc on our services.

Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California & many other Western states farming would be totally devastated as huge numbers of Latinos are used on the farm.  These are the so-called migrant worker. Many of them come to the US to work the farms then go back to Mexico in the off season.  But with modern growing practices there is little off season anymore in the Southwest.  You might also be surprised to learn that the Latino is now working on almost every major farm in the county, not just in the Southwest anymore.

Most city services such as garbage pickup, street cleaning, street repair is done mainly by Latinos.

Many restaurants would die without the Latino dish washers, cooks, waiters & other service personal needed to keep them afloat.

Most other stores would lose nearly half of their workers without the Latino.

Most all business landscaping & many peoples lawns would not get cut as the Latino does all this work in Houston.  In fact, many of them start a lawn care business within the first year after arriving.  All it takes is an old pickup truck, a shaky trailer & some used lawnmowers.  Got to give them credit, they really want to work.

Many used car lots would go out of business as there are a surprising number of them that cater mainly to the Latino.

Almost all construction in the Southwest has huge numbers of Latinos on the work crews.  As I write this, there are five construction projects going on within a 3 block radius from me.  All of them are mostly Latino workers.

Yes, we would be dead without them at this time.

We are a nation of immigrants.  Although my forbearers came to this country before George Washington's time, I still sometimes consider myself an old immigrant from Germany from the 1700's.  The only true original Americans are the American Indian & even they migrated from Asia long ago.  I guess the only really true American would be the Dinosaurs.

Sooo... my hats off to anyone who only wants to work & have a better life; after all that's the American dream is it not ?

[Griff]

Great reading gentlemen !

I am somewhere in the middle of you two, but I lean

pbreet way some what.

 Hopefully, a well run system will help them to get on their own feet as soon as possible so many of them can finally get of off welfare.  Problem is, for each one that gets off, two more new emigrants come on
 
Deport all illegals.

I agree, deport them, but you know thats not going to happen.

Cheap labor.

But me and you pay for it via their free health care and ect.

they do not speak the language

No we have to speak it.

Thanks for the good reading on two points of view.

Griff
 

[JimH]

And thank you for being careful about how you're saying it.

We all came from families who immigrated here -- even Native Americans.

[KingSparta]

We all came from families who immigrated here -- even Native Americans.

Yep

They Walked, We Took A Sail Boat

[DocLotus]

NEAT guys

Hey; I just realized this is my 1,000th post.  Hooray

[LonWar]

And to think, All King Sparta was trying to say was, CD sales are up....

I guess it's true, 1 thing leads to another...

[kiwi]

So why are many CD's still selling for $14 - $16 ?

I'm beginning to see DVD's for that price (and lower).

While I see this arguement given frequently, I actually disagree.  I think that I often get far more enjoyment out of a CD than I do out of a movie.  How many times are you going to watch a given movie in a year?  Now think about how many times you'll listen to the songs on a CD that you purchase?  And while it may cost more to produce a movie, those costs have probably already been recouped in the ticket sales.

Sure I think that CD's prices should come down.  If they cost $10, I'd never think about downloading music (well, not including getting concert bootlegs.)  But when a CD is 15-20, it becomes worth my time.

kiwi

[Robert Taylor]

As far as people buying less or more CD's than they were, no-one seems to have raised this possibilty:

When I started buying CD's, I would go berko each pay day, sometimes buying 15-20 CDs per month.

However, at this time, there were no:

DVDs
PDA's
LANs (at home)
Multi-function learning remote controls
HTPCs
Data Projectors
Robot vacuum cleaners
Mobile phones
Nomad Jukeboxes full of MP3's
Laser and inkjet printers in my room
Digital still & vieo cameras
DVD burners with firewire ports and video editng software with bloody Dolby bloody Digital Bloody encoding bloody plugins.
etc
etc
etc

What I'm trying to say is that these days, there are a HUGE BUNCH MORE products vying for my entertainment dollar.

Whadya think of those eggs?

[Galley]

I only buy SACDs these days.  

[rocketsauce]

Speaking of high cd prices, some of you in the U.S. may remember that a few years ago an antitrust lawsuit was filed against several distributors and retailers for conspiring "to illegally raise the prices of certain prerecorded Music Products by implementing Minimum Advertised Price policies, in violation of state and federal laws."

http://www.musiccdsettlement.com/english/default.htm

Following the instructions on the website, I found that I qualified as a member of the Settlement Group (ie., I lived in the U.S. and had purchased at least one Music Product between January 1, 1995 and December 22, 2000), so I filed a claim.

Apparently the defendants decided to settle (having denied all allegations of wrongdoing) and, lo and behold, I received my settlement check in the mail yesterday.  The grand total of my compensation for being overcharged for literally hundreds (if not thousands) of Music Products came to a whopping $13.86.  Ironically, that's just about what a new cd would cost if was on sale at Tower or Virgin.

Rob

[phatanhappy]

what a wonderful thead.  well said on all parts and no one got rude or mean.  As an objectivist.....   I agree with pbreet.

it is curious to me that no one pointed out the different levels of profits causing cd prices to remain high.  When you look at all the people that have their hands in the pot - you see why cd's cost so much.  There are more - and more - and more people involved everyday.  

At one point - it was a record company abusing the artist.  The artist had no money - just talent.  The artist had to sell the rights to the music just to have it published - so they owned nothing.  Now a days we not only have the musicians and the record companys - but managers, exective producers, lawyers, sponcers, and promoters, song writers, lyracists etc.  

There must be at least 50 differnt people (companies) that have their hand out for a piece of every album - dont forget the cost of the cd itself, the cost of the jewel case, cd cover, printing, pressing, shipping, packing, shrink wrapping, RIAA fees.  It looks like a gravy train -and for a few - it is.  we as consumers pay for it all.  if we stop buying CD's the prices will drop, but you will have to sacrafice you musical needs, also - you will have to stop supporting the other sponcers - now a days if you dont have a beer, a soda, a sneaker, and a line of clothing sponser - you wont be as successful as an artist.  

Artist thru ~1985 were generally poor, now we have 1 hit wonders making and in most cases loosing millions- this all costs the consumer money.  If MC hammer 'needs' 30 friends on the payroll costing 10 million a year- he needs more money from each album, each concert, each tee shirt to pay for it - we as consumers pay for the whole thing.  where is he now - BROKE.  if you cant maintain the production / quality  - the money dries up.  Capitalism is a wonderful thing.

one last thought- if it wasnt for the united states providing economic or government aide -most countries would have schrivled up and dried out.  We willingly pay over 50% of our salary every year to support all sorts of programs and trade deals to other countries including canada and mexico.  It doesnt seem like 50% - its only 2% here - and 10% there, and we get some back at tax time - add it up, clothing taxes, luxary taxes, tax on interest on saving or stocks, property tax, income tax, school tax, federal tax. state tax, city tax, gasoline tax.....  On my paycheck - if you divide the little number (actual cash part) buy the big number (gross before taxes) I am hit for 38% up front - extracted for use out of my control.  on the back end - after I am taxed - 5% of my gross salary goes for property tax, 7% more goes to sales tax- unless its gas, cigarettes, alcohol - then they get rude and take 2 to 3 times as much tax because we like it.  It is positivley a scary thought that we had the boston tea party because of a 1/4 of 1% rasie of tax on tea ONLY.  its was too much for us to bear - so we started a revolution.  now we willingly give up 1/2 our income for what --- pictures or outerspace - 2 robots on mars -spacestations - wars for weapons that dont exist.... and I live in the best country on earth (for me).

we need to be come finiancally responsible and quit depending on others for our lively hood.  I own my CD collection - paid the cost and the taxes for all of them, paid for MC and the stereo to listen to it with hard work in great effort.  i have never used unemployment or other "assistance" and never will - not because its not available to me - I dont believe in it.  If I use a service that I dont believe in, I am no better then the ones that abuse the system.  Even after 2 years of not working, and spending my entire savings - I didnt use unemployment.  Now that I am back employed, I am building my reserves larger so I can go longer if needed.