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Bush

25 (19.4%)

Kerry

51 (39.5%)

Nader

2 (1.6%)

Not a citizen, but Bush

2 (1.6%)

Not a citizen, but Kerry

30 (23.3%)

Not a citizen, but Nader

6 (4.7%)

None of the above or undecided

13 (10.1%)

Total Members Voted: 124

[deerhunter]

The U.S. was attacked something like 8 times before Bush was even president. USS Cole, Pan American Flight etc. No Bush isn't the best answer. We need someone like Douglas MacArthur, Teddy Rosevelt, Winston Churchill who understands just what is happening. As for health insurance, I had a man who who worked with me and wasn't even a citizen cotract tb. He didn't have a dime to his name but he is being given the best care. But all that means nothing when you have a million Moslem kids being taught nothing but how to handle a rifle, arm a bomb and the greatest glory is to die killing Jews, Americans and non believers. WE ARE AT WAR and have been for some 15-20 years.

[GHammer]

My knee jerk reaction to comments like "we're approaching WWIII... millions could die" is that it's blatant fear mongering.

My second reaction is to say "if we're heading for a world war then I want as many countries on my side as possible".  Ergo I want leadership that can operate on the world stage with tact and diplomacy not name calling and arrogance.

Something tells me that a few decades from now when you do a Google search for "Early 21st Century Terrorism" the search agent will display 'Red Scare' under Related Topics.

How we "go after" the terrorists will have a major impact on how this scenario plays out.  You can't bomb an idea and the threat of retaliation doesn't mean much to someone willing to carry out a suicide attack.

Well, I guess if the other countries were capable of >doing< something I'd want to play along and get their support. Maybe the US should get the brave UN peacekeepers who allowed the Serbs to take all the men from their town to help them out.

As for a 'Red Scare', I don't recall people saying that there were not communists rooted out of the US government. I recall that those rooted out didnt like the experience. Oops.

I'll agree that the poor stupid bombers are hyped to martyr themselves. I do not see the leaders welcoming the same fate. So, retaliation works as well as anything.

Finally, I see lots of people who use trite phrases but never seem to offer there solution/idea past "War is a bad thing". Just what would you do in some amount of detail. "Talk to people", "Act nicer", etc are not the level of detail I'd like to learn about though.

[Charlemagne 8]

"Why can't we all just get along?" - Rodney King

[GHammer]

America sells itself oil, with the money from the oil it sells itself, it pays american tax paying contractors to fix the damage it caused excessively, and it gets to renew its arsenal with the latest technology.

Not bad going.

Would helping those 40 million Americans without health insurance or those 25 million Africans work out quite as financially rewarding, not to mention giving america that much extra weight and power and the 'dont mess with us or we'll wipe you out' factor?

Ummm, so your point is that Iraq would not have sold oil to the US without a war? I think Saddam would have sold all he had were it not for the sanctions. Which were run by the UN to the benefit of those who were in charge and companies from "friendly" countries it seems. Where is that investigation by the way?

As for the war being a US jobs program designed to enrich friends of Bush, get real. Building roads, schools, hospitals, or statues of Bush in the US would be way more popular with voters and the same companies could get the contracts.

You say the US dictates the price of oil leaving Iraq. Can you tell me what that price has been recently? Is the cheap Iraq oil the reason that oil prices are at historic highs? Sorry, that doesn't add up either. You gotta remember that GWB is a politician. He wants to be reelected. You don't get elected in the US by raising the gas prices.

"Smart" bombs were the stupidest thing the US came up with. Because they lead people to believe that war can be fought with few innocent casualties. Guess what? A war kills people. Soldiers, children, old, young. War breaks things. Is it a good thing? Nope. But it is the way of war. I think the US way is better now than the carpet bombing of WW II though.

Finally, I read somewhere recently that the US approved US$72 billion for reconstruction in Iraq. That is not a loan. Can you tell me again how the US is making money from this deal?

[JimH]

But all that means nothing when you have a million Moslem kids being taught nothing but how to handle a rifle, arm a bomb and the greatest glory is to die killing Jews, Americans and non believers. WE ARE AT WAR and have been for some 15-20 years.

We had better try to understand the root causes of the conflict.

My list?  Population, poverty, resources.  The people preaching death to the infidels are exploiting the problems for their own personal glory.

[deerhunter]

"The people preaching death to the infidels are exploiting the problems for their own personal glory."

Well said Jim. Now how do we stop this. History tells us there is only one way. As with the Japanese and Germans in WWII we waged war on them until they realized they would cease to exist if they didn't become peaceful. I wish there was a better way but I doubt that there is.

[Omni]

"The people preaching death to the infidels are exploiting the problems for their own personal glory."

Well said Jim. Now how do we stop this. History tells us there is only one way.

Yes, it's true, history always repeats itself, but there's another way of looking at that:  it only repeats itself because we keep doing it the wrong way.

[Mysticeti]

I'm certainly no expert on foreign policy or comparative religion but my strategy for how to address the terrorism problem involves a multiprong approach.

• Go after the funding.  We're already doing this, right?
• Reform or shut down the Madrassas and other hate promoting schools.  Aside: I hope we got something for the half billion of debt we just wrote off to Pakistan.
  
• Better intelligence.
• Give the average person a stake in the future.  End the corruption, poverty, etc.  If you have something to live for blowing yourself up doesn't seem like such an attractive option.

Before anyone paints the anti-Bush crowd as a bunch of peace activists you might want to take a survey to see how many of us supported the Afghanistan invasion.  I, for one did.  However, we should have stopped (or at the very least paused) with Afghanistan and finished the job right.  By that I mean we should have used enough resources to capture/kill Bin Laden and have the country stabilized for elections.   Think of the credibility we'd have right now if, A) we hadn't invaded Iraq, B) Bin Laden was gone, and C) Afghanistan was holding elections on schedule.

[GHammer]

I'm certainly no expert on foreign policy or comparative religion but my strategy for how to address the terrorism problem involves a multiprong approach.

• Go after the funding.  We're already doing this, right?
• Reform or shut down the Madrassas and other hate promoting schools.  Aside: I hope we got something for the half billion of debt we just wrote off to Pakistan.
  
• Better intelligence.
• Give the average person a stake in the future.  End the corruption, poverty, etc.  If you have something to live for blowing yourself up doesn't seem like such an attractive option.

Before anyone paints the anti-Bush crowd as a bunch of peace activists you might want to take a survey to see how many of us supported the Afghanistan invasion.  I, for one did.  However, we should have stopped (or at the very least paused) with Afghanistan and finished the job right.  By that I mean we should have used enough resources to capture/kill Bin Laden and have the country stabilized for elections.   Think of the credibility we'd have right now if, A) we hadn't invaded Iraq, B) Bin Laden was gone, and C) Afghanistan was holding elections on schedule.

Applause! Applause! Someone who actually has ideas!

First, let's talk about Iraq. Um,  I don't think anyone foreign or domestic said that Iraq did not have WMD. Simply disagreed on when to have a war, now or in 3-6 months. The US wanted 'Now' and proceeded. And you know? I kinda hate to say it, but in my heart of hearts, I was fairly certain Iraq had something. Why?

Iraq took 12 years of sanctions costing them 100s of billions of dollars. To end those sanctions, all they had to do was allow the UN access for awhile. That to me said "Something to hide". Seems it spoke pretty loudly to those who were trying to assess the situation too.

For the countries who protested the timing of the war, take a look at who did business with the "Oil for Food" program and who stood to get large contracts if sanctions were lifted. I find it highly unlikely that Russia for example, had any moral qualms about a war. Or at least their activities in Chechnya would indicate they aren't wholly on the side of peaceful actions.

As for what to do?
Choking the money is a nice idea. Hard to implement though. I read the 9/11 attacks cost only US$400 thousand.
Hard to stop a trickle of cash like that I'd guess. Then you get into mandating US/Western standards on all countries. Where I live, people have a real interest in not allowing the officials know too much about their finances. And I can have cash sent to any country or receive from any country just by visiting the local market. No bank or Western Union needed. And, nearly impossible to trace.

The Madrassas should be eliminated. Funny how so many countries allow teaching hate to the exclusion to math, reading, etc. And funny how so many Western countries turn a blind eye to it.

What you got for your debt forgivness was access to/through Pakistan and some help on terrorists. You know, the dictator there has his own life to worry about, his own country (Moslim) to keep in check. He isn't going to change things in a year or two. The assassination attempts on him have made him suddenly MUCH more enthusiastic though!

Better intelligence. Ok, so forget the laws/rules that say that you can't associate with or pay anyone who does not respect 'human rights'. If you want to find out about unsavory people and groups chances are you will need to hang around some people you wouldn't invite to your kid's school play. Admit that you are never going to be 100% certain of anything, especially in closed countries or with a group like alQueda.

Give the average person a stake. What does that mean?
How do I, for example, end corruption in Egypt? End poverty? Ok, nice idea. A little short on details, but a good thought.

Finally, yes, Afghanistan is a mess. However, that is a shining example of the much desired multinational operation. The US has little or nothing to do with security. The US troops are looking for UBL and ex-Taliban. NATO/EU troops are responsible for security. Of course they have not quite been able to decide who will send 5 helicopters, for example.

I don't label people anti-Bush just because they don't like war. I simply label people "informed" or "uninformed". Because lots and lots of people want to say "An international force would have this or that". And clearly for the past 30 years not a single UN or NATO operation has done much of anything to resolve a given situation.

Having a political deployment of military force is kinda what got GWB where he is today. The first Gulf War was fought with a 'coalition'. One of the things the US promised the Arab partners was that they would not remove Saddam. And here we are 13 years later...

[Mysticeti]

I believe I said "strategy".  If you want details you're talking tactics.  I'll leave those to folks who have visited the places in question and maybe even speak some of the languages.  The point being if you don't understand the culture you're apt to make bad decisions w/r/t interacting with that culture.  E.G. How important is "saving face" to a Muslim?   How long do they hold a grudge?   How much loyalty can be bought?  If your neighbors think/assume you have WMDs are they going to respect you more?

"Choking the money" was W's idea.  I happen to agree with him on this.  Hard?  I don't see how that matters.

What you got for your debt forgivness was access to/through Pakistan and some help on terrorists.

So here we are propping up another military dictator mostly out of convenience.   What could possibly go wrong?  If we had completed the war in Afghanistan would we be doing this?  The US pushed for the invasion of Afghanistan and rightly so.  To say the mess in Afghanistan is the UN's fault is disingenuous.  Why aren't we putting the necessary resources into it?   By most accounts it's because we are (were) too focused on Iraq.

I say "better intelligence" because I doubt that any solution will eliminate 100% of terrorists.  Even the ridiculous "bomb all countries that have terrorists" approach isn't going to eliminate the cells that exist all over the world.   If anything that's going to increase terrorism.  I suspect all of us can agree that there is room for improvement in US intelligence.

People have a stake in the future when they have a job, can support their families, own a home, can envision a better life for their children, and so on.  Anything that gets you motivated in the morning other than, lets say, "maybe today I'll get to kill some Americans".

First, let's talk about Iraq. Um,  I don't think anyone foreign or domestic said that Iraq did not have WMD. Simply disagreed on when to have a war, now or in 3-6 months.

I almost find it amusing how frequently Iraq War/Bush supporters point out that much of the world thought Saddam had WMDs (e.g. what the rest of the world thinks does matter) but then ignore and trivialize world opinion when it happens to be counter to their own.

If I accept your three to six month premise -- Does anyone doubt that using that time to properly do post-war planning would have made a huge difference?

The Madrassas should be eliminated.

Yay.  We can agree on something!  :-)

Finally, I think I've hijacked this thread long enough.  I suspect most people's views on these matters are entrenched one way or another and they're unlikely to be disuaded.  I've said my piece and I bid you all a good day.

[GHammer]

In all, I truly don't care what others think as long as there seems to be thought associated with their position. I think people in the US have gotten infected by TV news. People say the most complicated things as if there were a magic wand to "eliminate corruption" "give everyone a job", etc. But when you ask how to do this, ask for even a high level idea/plan/explaination, there normally isn't one. Just more soundbite phrases.

You said you need to live places and speak the language to understand issues in the world. Well, I've spent over 20 years living all around the world. Not in a 4 star hotel, not in a company compound. I live in a working class apartment in a normal town.

The ideas I hear from many in "The West" are simply not attainable. Here isn't like there, it doesn't even want to be like there. And it would take a world war to change all these countries to fit your image of how life should be.

Japanese and German's had jobs, houses, and kids. Didn't stop them from war. Russians had the same and for a time they were the biggest threat to life that has ever existed.

One thing I have missed is the condemnation of terrorism by Islam itself. Yeah, I've seen a few followers saying that Islam is a peaceful religion. I don't see many/any of the leaders saying the same. And I certainly don't see the world leaders questioning that. If it is a peaceful religion, why don't I see more of that talk from the leaders of the religion? Maybe that would help offset the "radical" preachers a bit.

[Omni]

*rereads poll question*

*clears throat*

Badnarik for President!

Rah!

[deerhunter]

"Go after the funding.  We're already doing this, right?

"Reform or shut down the Madrassas and other hate promoting schools.  Aside: I hope we got something for the half billion of debt we just wrote off to Pakistan.

Better intelligence.

Give the average person a stake in the future.  End the corruption, poverty, etc.  If you have something to live for blowing yourself up doesn't seem like such an attractive option."

All these ideas are great. However they are hard to implement when people are shooting at you and planting car and roadside bombs. How do you change the minds of millions of young Moslems who have already been brainwashed from the age of 10. My 10 year old grandson plays little league baseball. The typical Moslem 10 year old is only taught how to kill with rifles and bombs and if he dies in the attempt he achieves the greatest glory in Heaven.

[Charlemagne 8]

Like most of us, I have no answers --- only questions. The concept of suicide bombing is so foreign to us that we will never understand it. I would think it would be extremely difficult to defeat a decentralized enemy that we have no hope of understanding.

A strange thought occurred to me recently. There are many parallels between Islamic terrorists and the early Christians. The largest similarity is that they both worked unceasingly to bring down the "Establishment" at whatever cost.

There is historical consensus that the Christians actually DID start the Great Roman Fire (that Nero supposedly fiddled during) and started the public backlash that began the Christian Persecution.

Unfortunately, we're the Romans.

CVIII

[Fixer]

Unless we go after these people with all we got and end this thing now, we will be facing a terrible war that will kill thousands if not millions of Americans.

There are over 40 million Americans without health insurance, and over 25 million Africans infected with HIV.  Is a $300 (or more) billion war in Iraq the best way to "save lives"?

And by these people I assume you mean the administration responsible for starting the war

I understand the question, but I don't see the relationship between the two situations.

We can all debate whether the war was worth the cost (who knows...).  War sucks, but is sometimes necessary, and if necessary, worth every cent and life.  The problem is knowing if it was needed knowing all we know now compared to when it started.

[Matt]

The typical Moslem 10 year old is only taught how to kill with rifles and bombs and if he dies in the attempt he achieves the greatest glory in Heaven.

There are extremists, and they should be stopped.

However, the "typical Muslim" is not all about killing with rifles and bombs any more than the "typical Christian" is all about murdering abortion doctors and performing hate crimes against homosexuals.

I understand the question, but I don't see the relationship between the two situations.

My point is that resources are finite.  Healthcare, the AIDS pandemic, black-market nukes, normalizing Afghanistan, or constraining a ballooning deficit are all examples of more efficient uses of resources and national attention.

[deerhunter]

However, the "typical Muslim" is not all about killing with rifles and bombs any more than the "typical Christian" is all about murdering abortion doctors and performing hate crimes against homosexuals.

I hope you are right, but I have not heard any "typical" Moslem leader angrily condemning the 9/11 attacks, the bombing of women and school children on buses and at Bar Mitsfah parties in Israel or any of the other atrocities that have occured around the world. I suppose the "typical" German or Japanese  in WWII was not all about killing and bombing but they were still supporting their country.  I read that there are 8 wars going on in the world today and all 8 have Moslem extremists involved.

[bebop]

It is sad, indeed that many tent to paint all Muslims with the same brush dipped into the paint of media coverage....the extreamists always get the most coverage...I recall interviews with  Musluim  clergy who not only denounced violence, but pointed out that  killing is against the techings of the Koran, these were not run as often as the ones with the gun waving, ranting fanatics.   You only have to look at the news to see that it is the bad that gets the most attention...it just makes better copy, gets the most viewers which equals higher ratings and ratings are what drive the media.

[modelmaker]

In this time of high political frustration,  a little humor helps ones perspective:

http://atomfilms.shockwave.com/contentPlay/shockwave.jsp?id=this_land&preplay=1&ratingBar=off

 

[bebop]

LOL      Loved it...but then, I'm from the land that spawned SCTV and Air Farce!!

[Omni]

ROFL!!!!!!!!!

It's been a few days since I've actually laughed out loud.   Thanks!  That was fun.

[modelmaker]

Yeah, I found myself laughing out loud as well!

[Magicland]

However, the "typical Muslim" is not all about killing with rifles and bombs any more than the "typical Christian" is all about murdering abortion doctors and performing hate crimes against homosexuals.

I hope you are right, but I have not heard any "typical" Moslem leader angrily condemning the 9/11 attacks, the bombing of women and school children on buses and at Bar Mitsfah parties in Israel or any of the other atrocities that have occured around the world. I suppose the "typical" German or Japanese  in WWII was not all about killing and bombing but they were still supporting their country.  I read that there are 8 wars going on in the world today and all 8 have Moslem extremists involved.

You know, not ONE of the "typical" moslems that I know has killed anyone with a rifle or bomb or anything else, and some of them even play little league baseball. I suppose if Israel hadn't stolen the Palestinian's country from them, there'd be a lot less people bombing and killing there as well.

[GHammer]

However, the "typical Muslim" is not all about killing with rifles and bombs any more than the "typical Christian" is all about murdering abortion doctors and performing hate crimes against homosexuals.

I hope you are right, but I have not heard any "typical" Moslem leader angrily condemning the 9/11 attacks, the bombing of women and school children on buses and at Bar Mitsfah parties in Israel or any of the other atrocities that have occured around the world. I suppose the "typical" German or Japanese  in WWII was not all about killing and bombing but they were still supporting their country.  I read that there are 8 wars going on in the world today and all 8 have Moslem extremists involved.

You know, not ONE of the "typical" moslems that I know has killed anyone with a rifle or bomb or anything else, and some of them even play little league baseball. I suppose if Israel hadn't stolen the Palestinian's country from them, there'd be a lot less people bombing and killing there as well.

It's very unlikely you know any 'typical' moslems. Ain't many islamic countries you'd be welcome to walk the streets.

As for Israel, got any idea how it was founded/refounded?

Funny though, I really don't want to understand anyone/country/religion that was involved with 9/11. Nobody in WTC had jack to do with US policy.

http://www.911digitalarchive.org/diganimbackup/americaattacked/index1.html

Nope, I don't believe that Saddam was involved with 9/11. I do believe that he was in league with terrorists.

I am certain that he won't help launch any attack against the US in the future.

And let's get something clear for all the apologists. UBL has never said he hates the west because of poor moslims. He hates the west because they are infidels. And because infidels have been in holy lands. And that is the recruiting speil as far as I have ever read/heard. In a way I admire the guy. He isn't interested in "understanding", "dialogue", "compromise".

Unlike many in the west today.

[Magicland]

With over 150,000  (documented, undoubtably many more not) muslim's in New York City, I'm sure some of them are "typical". Of course, you realize that the "typical" muslim isn't arabic, right? The most populous muslim countries are Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, India, and Turkey. In fact, only Iran and Egypt make the top 10 (at positions 7 & , and that possibly only due to undercounted numbers from China, whose government doesn't make such numbers readily available. Might as well get the facts straight before we start basing opinions on them.

[GHammer]

With over 150,000  (documented, undoubtably many more not) muslim's in New York City, I'm sure some of them are "typical". Of course, you realize that the "typical" muslim isn't arabic, right? The most populous muslim countries are Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, India, and Turkey. In fact, only Iran and Egypt make the top 10 (at positions 7 & , and that possibly only due to undercounted numbers from China, whose government doesn't make such numbers readily available. Might as well get the facts straight before we start basing opinions on them.

Yep, might as well. And I'll still stand by my statement that you have no idea what the 'typical' muslim thinks about anything.

When talking islam, please don't confuse it with nationality. Speak about sects/beliefs. You know, Wahabi, Sunni, Shiite, etc. As for China, the Uygur's are a pretty big Muslim group here. The government does indeed count them. By the way, the Uygur seem to have a slightly different take on Islam. They are hard drinkers! Come on over and learn something first hand.

For your future reference, I'm not an American who never travels father than 200 Km from home except to go to Disney World. I've actually been places in the world.

I've pretty much got my facts straight. Islam and most of its followers are opposed to western ideas/ways/policies and are willing to kill or to condone/support killing in response. Because you'll have a hard time convincing me that if most moslems weren't approving that terrorists would have haven in many places. Quite the opposite, they are "Holy Warriors".

But like i said earlier, I am not interested in "understanding", "compromising", "dialogue". In this I'll go along with your "War Criminal" and say those who are with the west are with them. Those who aren't are enemies. Ain't much middle ground here if you look at it with less than PC eyes.

[JimH]

I'm reminded of a favorite line a good friend uses:

"My mind's made up.  Don't confuse me with the facts."

[GHammer]

I'm reminded of a favorite line a good friend uses:

"My mind's made up.  Don't confuse me with the facts."

Bingo!

[PushiTooL]

What's interesting is the polling results of the non-US citizens. Check it out.

[Omni]

What's interesting is the polling results of the non-US citizens.

Not really.  Most other countries aren't feeling too loving towards the U.S.A. at the moment.  President Bush is the country's figurehead, so of course he won't be getting any votes from non-Americans.