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[Matt]

Just out of curiosity what type of neural net algorithm do you use: straight MLP with Back prop or something more advanced ?

Well, I was sort of kidding.

I think of a neural net as anything where lots of pieces can contribute to a decision and where each of those pieces can learn based on past successes and failures.  Radio in Media Center is a neural net using that simple definition.

I don't even know what reticulating a spline means, so don't ask how we do that

[hit_ny]

Neural nets are good at pattern matching...its how our brains are wired.

..is there a pattern to the way we listen to music ?

such an emotional thing isn't it.

What would you like to listen to now

[Craig]

I just had a long session with radio and am really enjoying it but wouldn't it be better to let the seed song finish before starting?

Craig

[glynor]

Some things I've noticed while playing with Radio mode further.  I'm really enjoying using it, and I think with just a few small tweaks and fixes it could be fantastic (and I'm having a birthday party for a friend this weekend here and I think I'll be using it)...  Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.   

1. The Playing Now list in Theater View doesn't update as new files are added by the Radio.  You have to leave the view and re-enter it to get them to show.

2. Sorry to keep harping on it, but I'd really like to be able to manually queue songs to play next, but still use the Radio function.  I realize we can via drag-drop, but I'd use it mostly with Theater View and the Add functions.  This is perfect for a party situation.  If someone wants to hear a specific song or three, they (or I) can easily queue it for playback, but otherwise just let MC's Radio take the helm.  It would be even more perfect if it then used these queued songs as the new seed when generating the list further.

[glynor]

My wife told me yesterday to "Tell the dog he completely rocks!"

This was, of course, in reference to the new Radio feature, which is obviously a big hit.  So... Congrats to all of you from my wife at least.    

[hit_ny]

are you jealous ?

 

[glynor]

are you jealous ?

Considering she calls him "the dog" and not "Matt" I think I'm okay.   

[gappie]

i just rightclicked on an album>play as radio. it then only takes the first song. it would be nice if it would play that album  (what i expected) and do its magic with all the songs to come up with something else.

thanks
gab

[KingSparta]

Considering she calls him "the dog" and not "Matt" I think I'm okay.   

I guess I am slow, but i get it now.

[raym]

1. The Playing Now list in Theater View doesn't update as new files are added by the Radio.  You have to leave the view and re-enter it to get them to show.

I noticed this as well.

I'd also like to be able to do this:-

I'd really like to be able to manually queue songs to play next, but still use the Radio function.  I realize we can via drag-drop, but I'd use it mostly with Theater View and the Add functions.  This is perfect for a party situation.  If someone wants to hear a specific song or three, they (or I) can easily queue it for playback, but otherwise just let MC's Radio take the helm.  It would be even more perfect if it then used these queued songs as the new seed when generating the list further.

Thanks

PS - this is really a greate feature!!

[darichman]

Nice concept. I use AMG's "Mood" field a fair bit with my music and it's surprising how well it works. To have something dynamic and which can keep up with a changing mood would be a fresh idea.

Keep file tags (genre, artist album etc) filled in with clean values

How does this work? Where/how is it getting the 'correct values'?

[rjm]

Just tried the Radio. I like it.

My library is rather diverse. Can you disclose enough of the algorithm to give me confidence that my Living with a Flatuence Disorder and Penthouse Letters audiobooks do not start playing in the middle of my dinner party?

[benn600]

So does it actually use some common database between all users to help predict what songs a user will like?  What I'd really like is an ability to basically play all the hot songs--the top 100 songs.  So if I start with one of the hot songs, it should get from the database that the song I'm playing is very popular so it's likely that I like popular radio music.  So basically it's as close to real radio as you can get--the same stuff over and over (lol)....  Maybe a little of both.

But does it use some common database or is it just a user?  Cause if it's just a user then that seems a bit tough.  Not much different from random I'd say with some emphasis on certain genres or ratings.  I can do that with smartlists now.

[TimB]

Just tried the Radio. I like it.

My library is rather diverse. Can you disclose enough of the algorithm to give me confidence that my Living with a Flatuence Disorder and Penthouse Letters audiobooks do not start playing in the middle of my dinner party?

+1

-=Tim=-

[ThoBar]

Loving this new feature. LOVING.

C.

[Higginz]

I'm loving this Radio too! 
The surprise part of not knowing what song comes next is brilliant! 

However, my trigger song was "Don't Stop" by Fleetwood Mac (rock,pop)
But then, when the radio started, it played me a country song. And then it seems to have stuck in the 'country' music lane?.
All songs (10 in a row now) have been country songs.
I'm afraid that I will be listening to country music for the rest of the evening now. (Although I like country)

Waylon Jennings, Dolly Parton, Johnny Cash, Freddy Fender, Willie Nelson, LeAnn Rimes.......yeehaw!
Welcome to Higginz' Country Music Radio 

[Higginz]

Well, 15 country songs in a row (genre tagged = country)
Then MCRadio maybe picked up on my slight worries of having to listen to country music all nite, cause it played me a song that was genre tagged as "Oldies". Then a song that was tagged as "Soundtrack". So, maybe this MCRadio just needed some songs to "learn" It's way around?.
Anyway, this is a great new feature of MC.

Thanks! 

[raym]

Can you disclose enough of the algorithm to give me confidence that my Living with a Flatuence Disorder and Penthouse Letters audiobooks do not start playing in the middle of my dinner party?

    

+2

[Hugo_Elbuho]

+3

As someone suggested, there are many reasons why you wouldn't like to make "Radio" work with your entire library. Personally i'd like to exclude all those midis to prevent my guests from thinking karaoke party has just started.

So also giving all my support to my "Penthouse audiobooks" friend

Hugo

[sbsp2]

I totally support this. I was thinking the same thing late last night. This way, I could have the Radio functionality on my iPod. Everytime I would sync the iPod, the Smartlist with the radio functionality would create a fresh Radio playlist and upload it to the iPod. Since I sync almost everyday, the playlist on the iPod would change all the time. Now I realize that it would probably really increase the time that the playlist needs to get generated, but I would live with that.

I agree.  I've been doing this for years using MC with my portable MP3 players via a few complex smartlists I built.  I achieve 'radio-like' playback for all the tracks I sync with my iPod that is 'better' than just 'random playback' of all the tracks on the player.  I would welcome a simple 'Radio Randomize' feature to sort a viewed playlist (for example).

[rjm]

+3

As someone suggested, there are many reasons why you wouldn't like to make "Radio" work with your entire library. Personally i'd like to exclude all those midis to prevent my guests from thinking karaoke party has just started.

So also giving all my support to my "Penthouse audiobooks" friend

Hugo

My preferred solutions in descending order:

1) A wizard to allow me to exclude files from Radio based on an arbitrary combination of tags.
2) Confirmation from JRiver that if Radio starts on a genre it will stay on that genre.
3) Confirmation from JRiver that Radio will respect any exclusions imposed by Access Control.

Thanks.

[glynor]

2) Confirmation from JRiver that if Radio starts on a genre it will stay on that genre.

Just to note that, for me, this would completely ruin the radio feature.  The whole idea for me is that it should switch to different genres, as posted at the beginning of this thread by multiple users (original builds really didn't like to switch genres).

I thought the suggestion for a simple keyword-based approach to exclusion would be effective and easy-to-use-and-understand.

[hit_ny]

I use keywords as flags to keep said flagged files out of certain viewschemes.

Choice of Tag fields for exclusion/inclusion is far more useful.

I'm undecided on the Genre thing, it can work with some and not with others. if you have few genres that all play together then Radio will be super, but once the genres start to grow, you get incompatibilities. I think a carefully crafted smartlist will outdo Radio in these cases.

[dNj]

This is great.  I welcome a dj-matic option.

[gappie]

I'm undecided on the Genre thing, it can work with some and not with others. if you have few genres that all play together then Radio will be super, but once the genres start to grow, you get incompatibilities. I think a carefully crafted smartlist will outdo Radio in these cases.

i really think that this is what radio is about. when you have a party and you want control, use smartlists. but when you are in the mood to just play something and get some suprise, then radio is an (the) option. that is the fun of it. but i also think that there should be a way to make sure some files never get played. they are not made for radio. 

and i think, as suggested before, that it would be nice that, if mc is on radio when you close it, it goes on being a radio after you restarted mc.

[benn600]

Somebody has got to help me out here.

I'm loving this Radio too!  Smiley
The surprise part of not knowing what song comes next is brilliant!  Smiley

Isn't this more commonly known as Shuffle?  I don't exactly understand how to use MC Radio....what is the difference between it and Shuffle?  For one thing, I would have almost expected Shuffle to keep track of skipped/listened to songs but that's fine to separate them out.  Also, if its picking songs that I "like" or "dislike" isn't that just voiding my months and months of rating songs?  I'm essentially starting over then and having to teach Radio what I already taught ratings.  I do recall ratings are considered in radio, though.

elaborate (include purpose of life if you would)

[gappie]

Somebody has got to help me out here.

Isn't this more commonly known as Shuffle?  I don't exactly understand how to use MC Radio....what is the difference between it and Shuffle?  For one thing, I would have almost expected Shuffle to keep track of skipped/listened to songs but that's fine to separate them out.  Also, if its picking songs that I "like" or "dislike" isn't that just voiding my months and months of rating songs?  I'm essentially starting over then and having to teach Radio what I already taught ratings.  I do recall ratings are considered in radio, though.

elaborate (include purpose of life if you would)

i think it is totaly different from shuffle. it does take your ratings in account, but does pick a lower rating so now and then. it picks its next songs based on things like genre audio analisis    etc from the song playing. but how? just waiting for a slip of the tongue from matt. 

[glynor]

i think it is totaly different from shuffle. it does take your ratings in account, but does pick a lower rating so now and then. it picks its next songs based on things like genre audio analisis    etc from the song playing. but how? just waiting for a slip of the tongue from matt. 

Right!  Shuffle == totally random.

Radio == Smart Random

[johnnyboy]

Pandora.com does this quite nicely.
For each song you specify thumbs up or thumbs down.
If you click 'thumbs down' then it will never play you that song again and uses it to refine what it continues to play you.

It's a great idea and I think you're right that it definitely has to be a smart feature that can be adjusted - an auto smartlist that always has the same 3 songs you absolutely hate mixed into them would just put people off it fast.

A few smart rules for it would be nice too:

All songs like this that match the following smartlist:
Genre:Hip-hop, Pop, etc

[benn600]

It's a good system but based on what I examine from teenagers and students around me (I am one) I find that most of them have the mentality of only keeping the songs they like.  I know several people who delete songs they don't like.  To me, that's crazy and its ignoring the whole fundamental reasoning behind a music collection but I would argue that quite a few people do that.

Granted the people I'm describing are generally NOT in MC's target market but it's something to keep in mind.

[hit_ny]

i really think that this is what radio is about. when you have a party and you want control, use smartlists. but when you are in the mood to just play something and get some suprise, then radio is an (the) option. that is the fun of it. but i also think that there should be a way to make sure some files never get played. they are not made for radio. 

In the meantime the workaround is to remove possible offenders and create another Radio library. Then when you want radio to not play certain files you are done.

But i don't like this workaround

..since i doubt any learning gained from one library would carry over to another.

[rjm]

Another work around might be Access Control. Does anyone know if Radio avoids files blocked by Access Control?

[JustinChase]

So, I'm trying this for the first time right now.  So far, so good.  It started with a Genre of Industrial (Nine inch Nails, Down in It), then switched to a genre of Old School Punk.  It is now on the 10th Old School Punk track in a row.  That's cool, some stuff I haven't heard in a while, but not quite as 'random' as I'd like or expect.

Some suggestions:

Have MC switch (or offer) a Radio screen.  Something that lets one see more information about what the radio is doing.  For example, maybe show us the background 'criteria'; things like weightings of Genre, Artist, etc.  Also, let us tweak this criteria.  So, if it's got "Old School Punk" with 9 out of 10, and Pop as 1 out of 10, and Country as 7 out of 10, maybe I want to lower the weighting of Country, and raise the rating of Pop (just an example).

Also (or seperately maybe) let us thumbs up/down as we're listening.  Skipping is okay, but telling it thumbs down will downgrade all the criteria by 1.  So if a song comes up to play and I hit thumbs down, it rates that genre down by 1, the artist down by 1, the album down by 1, etc.  Then if another song comes up, and I hit thumbs up, everything goes up by one.  The result being that downgrading Misfits, Teenagers from Mars off the album Static Age in Genre Old School Punk, they all go down, but if Dead Kennedys, I Spy off Bedtime for Democracy in the same genre comes up, and I give it a thumbs up, it returns that Genre to the previous setting.

Or, perhaps show us all the criteria simultaneously in this playlist and let us thumbs up/down each of the criteria.  i.e. Misfits thumbs up; Teenagers from Mars thumbs down, Static age no thumbs selected, and Old School Punk thumbs down.  Letting us be as involved as we like as it goes along.  Obviously we won't do this all the time, but as I'm sitting here at my machine listening, it would let me craft my feelings a bit more.

I'm now listening to the 14th Old School Punk track in a row.  I would rate the genre down, but I really like this song, so I don't want to skip it.

Finally, maybe letting us manually (one time?) tell MC how one Genre relates to another.  Allowing this to go back to a server to be accumulated with others decisions would probably help a lot.  For example; Old School as compared to Classical would receive the lowest "related" rating available, but Old School Punk and Industrial would get a high relativity rating, and Old School Punk and Pop might get a middle of the road rating.  This might make it easier for MC to know how Genre's can flow better.

With all that being said, I really like the idea, and the implementation is pretty good so far also.

I just hit skip 17 times in a row with all new songs coming up with Old School Punk until the 18th time, and it came up with Heavy Metal, which is a good follow up.  It then brought up Funk, which was somewhat related in tempo and sound (kind of), then came up with Hard Rock, which was a better mix with the initial seed, and following tracks.  If it would continue to mix up the genre's like it seems to be doing now, I'll be much happier.

Great job so far, thanks guys.

[broncodan]

Just saw this feature - I love JR but I hope you aren't infringing on another program -the Music IP mixer program - which I have utilized for this exact feature for some time.....  Check it out - maybe there could be some sort of collaboration or sharing of data......

Don't get me wrong - I love having this all in one place - just seems like a very similar interface (although Music IP - has a bunch of other options - but it is not a all encompassing program like Media Center).

[sbsp2]

Just saw this feature - I love JR but I hope you aren't infringing on another program -the Music IP mixer program - which I have utilized for this exact feature for some time.....  Check it out - maybe there could be some sort of collaboration or sharing of data......

He's right, seems like a verify similiar concept (select a song and say 'build me a playlist based on this').  Looks like Memorex released an MP3 player with MusicIP software in it (wonder if it's patented?).

[JimH]

In theory, you can't patent an obvious idea, but this is a discussion of Radio, not patents.  If you want to discuss patents, please start a new Off Topic thread.

[AoXoMoXoA]

In theory, you can't patent an obvious idea, but this is a discussion of Radio, not patents.  If you want to discuss patents, please start a new Off Topic thread.

I love patent leather almost as much as the new radio feature, it's great for pumps & matching purse   

[tombert]

... and to use the playing now song as a seed after say, 30 sec. or half of the song's playtime, and based on that tune add a song at the end of the playing now list. The goal would be to use the skipping of songs to refine that mood ...

I wouldn't allow that, maybe as an checkbox option if it really must be. The disadvantage is that errors propagate if they are based on last selections. Just like you do it with a ruler, you always measure from point zero.

[tombert]

When I tried, it mixed up Austrian folk songs with Blood Hound Gang - that really doesn't fit. And I'am suspicious if this feature would ever work nice without pattern analyzing the content.
I think I'am better done with my smartlists that pick genres, I've got lots of genres cause I differentiate e.g. rock and slow rock or funk rock and so on. And for me genre equals mood.

[wombat66]

I have some genres that definitely cause potential issues for Radio either due to seasonal reasons or mixed company.

Children's
Halloween
Spoken Word
Industrial Noise & Ritual Music
Christmas
Porn Groove
Porn Groove with Dialogue and Sounds
Religious Inspirational

Is there any way to exclude certain genres from Radio?

[JustinChase]

I have ... potential issues ...

...
Porn Groove
Porn Groove with Dialogue and Sounds
Religious Inspirational

Very interesting?!

[MrC]

Its a good start.  My 2 cents:

1) lose the "radio" name.  It has no relation with or association to radio, which is generally about wireless transmission, the device, or broadcast via wireless tranmission (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=radio).  The only connection I see is one of the DJ, and DJs are not that sole domain of radio stations.  Call it MC Butler! :-)

2) The album containing the initial song seems to be heavily favored.  After 18 tracks, the 6 came from the first album, 4 from a second album, and 3 from a third.  The rest were more random, with one out of nowhere Rap track.

[gappie]

i was wondering if there will be a mcc command for unseeded radio available in the future. so i can start that with my remote, or even make a button in Theater View.

and i know that this is a bit of OT, but apparently radio uses the song that is playing now. it would be extremely nice if we also could use that for our own smartlists.
thanks
gab

[gappie]

i was wondering if there will be a mcc command for unseeded radio available in the future. so i can start that with my remote, or even make a button in Theater View.

just thought that it would be more logical to use something like this
mc12.exe /RadioReplace   playing now is replaced by radio (unseeded)
mc12.exe /Radio     Radio will use the currently playing track as seed after the current track is finished
with the |zone option

 

[Doof]

I only just got around to playing with this feature. I love it!

But I did want to throw my vote in for the following enhancements:

1. This absolutely NEEDS, BEGS, PLEADS to be included into Theater View. It would be such a perfect marriage of features.
2. Play the entire seed song when Radio is turned on rather than moving right along to the next song.
3. Some sort of Radio Control List where you can specify certain criteria about what gets picked and what doesn't. Something exactly like Access Control for starters (except that Access Control still needs to be its own seperate entity) where you can specify fields/values that it won't pick from. Additionally a couple of options like the ability to jump genres or not (personally I want it to) and whether or not it should stick to files of the same rating or higher or be able to pick songs that are rated lower than the seed might be nice.
4. The ability to turn it on and it stays on no matter what you do (ie adding a song to Playing Now or even clicking Stop or shutting down MC). Again, I'm thinking of Theater View. I want to be able to add a song into the mix (as next to play) without having to turn Radio back on.

[rjm]

I only just got around to playing with this feature. I love it!

But I did want to throw my vote in for the following enhancements:

1. This absolutely NEEDS, BEGS, PLEADS to be included into Theater View. It would be such a perfect marriage of features.
2. Play the entire seed song when Radio is turned on rather than moving right along to the next song.
3. Some sort of Radio Control List where you can specify certain criteria about what gets picked and what doesn't. Something exactly like Access Control for starters (except that Access Control still needs to be its own seperate entity) where you can specify fields/values that it won't pick from. Additionally a couple of options like the ability to jump genres or not (personally I want it to) and whether or not it should stick to files of the same rating or higher or be able to pick songs that are rated lower than the seed might be nice.
4. The ability to turn it on and it stays on no matter what you do (ie adding a song to Playing Now or even clicking Stop or shutting down MC). Again, I'm thinking of Theater View. I want to be able to add a song into the mix (as next to play) without having to turn Radio back on.

great suggestions!

Thanks for explaining 2. I though it was a bug or that I did not know how to use Radio.

[ThoBar]

1. This absolutely NEEDS, BEGS, PLEADS to be included into Theater View. It would be such a perfect marriage of features.

It already is, isn't it? ... It's there for me...

2. Play the entire seed song when Radio is turned on rather than moving right along to the next song.
3. Some sort of Radio Control List where you can specify certain criteria about what gets picked and what doesn't. Something exactly like Access Control for starters (except that Access Control still needs to be its own seperate entity) where you can specify fields/values that it won't pick from. Additionally a couple of options like the ability to jump genres or not (personally I want it to) and whether or not it should stick to files of the same rating or higher or be able to pick songs that are rated lower than the seed might be nice.

agreed, and agreed.

4. The ability to turn it on and it stays on no matter what you do (ie adding a song to Playing Now or even clicking Stop or shutting down MC). Again, I'm thinking of Theater View. I want to be able to add a song into the mix (as next to play) without having to turn Radio back on.

absolutely, positively, super-dooperly agree with this! especially with respect to the addition of an individual song

[Marty3d]

...Isn't this more commonly known as Shuffle?  ...

Actually..it would be so fun if Matt just pulled our legs. Think about it, implementing a fake feature, being super secret about how it works, everyone get over excited about it and then it's just an ordinary Shuffle! All this discussion over that...hysterical!

Well, I'm sure Radio is for real!

[Doof]

It already is, isn't it? ... It's there for me...

Well, Play (as Radio) is there. But I guess I was thinking something more along the lines of a way to just turn it on unseeded. Unless I'm missing something, you can't do that.

[gappie]

sometimes i think the lists are ok. but most of the time it seems like radio get stucked. here is a screencap of what i heard the last three or so hours. started with a seeded song. maybe i should say that i dont have any genres.

i really think it would be nice if there would be a bit more variation in album or artist.
thanks
gab