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[JimH]

Why can't we buy tracks or subscriptions just because we're not living in the USA?
Surely I could hop on a plane to anywhere in the states, go to a store and buy a cd, then get a plane home again?
What's the difference (apart from the obvious) between that, and logging into a US based online store and buying a digital download from there?

The record labels and the publishers (owners of song copyrights) treat the world as different markets with different rules.

It's an anachronism (if that's the word I want).  It's the way the markets developed.  No good reason.

Now, they use this as an excuse to extract a toll from any company that wants to put together a business in the market.  It's significant money for them.  I believe it's several hundred thousand dollars per country per label. 

So if JRiver wanted to start a service in Mexico, for example, it might cost $500,000 up front.  Of course, we'd be earning that back in pennies per transaction.

I agree that it is frustrating.  So go make some music we can sell!

[hit_ny]

iTunes came over, not hard to imagine Amazon following and any other as well.

..real soon now

[prod]

What's the difference (apart from the obvious) between that, and logging into a US based online store and buying a digital download from there?

Maybe the difference is that you're not in the USA, paying US taxes and contributing consistently to their community or society. Although the delivery is simpler with digital content, the view (perhaps an anachronistic view like JimH says) is locally produced or procured goods should be cheaper and more accessible for local people. Depends which business model you want to work under I suppose. Franchising anything from music to coffee to burgers is big money.

[hit_ny]

Maybe the difference is that you're not in the USA, paying US taxes and contributing consistently to their community or society. Although the delivery is simpler with digital content, the view (perhaps an anachronistic view like JimH says) is locally produced or procured goods should be cheaper and more accessible for local people. Depends which business model you want to work under I suppose. Franchising anything from music to coffee to burgers is big money.

But if you are *paying* then that argument falls flat doesn't it.

I'm glad Auntie Beeb does not apply that same logic when i want to pull one of her shows.

[Mastiff]

You can get yourself a C/O address in the US and use a proxy server. I haven't tried myself, but that should work.

[prod]

But if you are *paying* then that argument falls flat doesn't it.

I'm glad Auntie Beeb does not apply that same logic when i want to pull one of her shows.

Not really. In many cases there are different levels of service depending on location (or more commonly citizenship) of the customer. Just because it costs so much to X, doesn't mean Y will or should be treated equally.

Auntie limits the level of service it offers to those living abroad who are not UK citizens. Quite right too, it's funded publicly by UK citizens - most of us pay a television tax (known as a TV licence fee).

[KingSparta]

You can get yourself a C/O address in the US and use a proxy server.

I was thinking the same thing

[GHammer]

I was thinking the same thing

I was thinking that your IP would not be from the US nor your credit card billing address.

[marko]

I was thinking...
"even if that was enough to fool the system, it surely can't be safe to send your credit card details through some random proxy server?"

or are there companies out there that provide a secure and reliable service for such things?
which would surely need to be paid for, which probably means that it's not a financially viable option, and to be honest, I don't want to be jumping through hoops like that just to get access.

Quite frankly, I find the whole situation ridiculous. Surely, when you get to the bottom line, the cash all winds up in the same coffer anyway, so why should it matter how it gets there.

* marko wanders off, shaking his head, muttering expletives under his breath...

[darichman]

I was thinking...
"even if that was enough to fool the system, it surely can't be safe to send your credit card details through some random proxy server?"

Do they accept paypal, I wonder? That way CC details should be hidden...
But yeah, looks like I'll wait till someone does something similar in Australia. I'll be back in 20 years time

[Frobozz]

I was thinking...
"even if that was enough to fool the system, it surely can't be safe to send your credit card details through some random proxy server?"

or are there companies out there that provide a secure and reliable service for such things?
which would surely need to be paid for, which probably means that it's not a financially viable option, and to be honest, I don't want to be jumping through hoops like that just to get access.

There are free and pay VPN services based in the US.  You'll end up with a US IP address.  I trust the VPN services more than a random proxy server.  A free one is Hotspot Shield.

[Cmagic]

The whole thing is indeed really frustrating. Opening a music site page or MC store and be welcomed with a message remembering that "Please note that xxxxx is currently only available to US customers." after a while you feel like you're not on the same planet. However I do buy books, T-shirts and jeans from US online sites, no problem !

I agree that it is frustrating.  So go make some music we can sell!,

Good idea Jim, that's why I decided to start playing music again after nearly 30 years away from my instrument. I have dusted off my accordion and we're playing again with my wife and friends. This will soon be available but please note that Cmagic live music will only be available to European customers."
Well, if you come visit us here, you'll get some nice wine as well 

Have a nice Sunday,

Christian

[mark_h]

Quite frankly, I find the whole situation ridiculous. Surely, when you get to the bottom line, the cash all winds up in the same coffer anyway, so why should it matter how it gets there.

I totally agree.   I'm a UK citizen but I buy all my DVDs, Blu-Rays and the electronics to play them from the US.  I often buy many other products direct from the US too (including Media Center!!).  Why are there restrictions on some products and not others?  I can understand some software, which might contain cryptographic algorithms that are prohibited for export under US law, being unavailable for (actually pretty weak) security reasons, but not consumables such as music.  I suspect its because the companies are greedy and know they can charge more in other markets (cf Apple in the UK) ...

In this case it doesn't actually bother me as I have zero interest in downloading lossy audio, particularly if it has DRM constraints.  I'd rather buy the lossless CD (again, something we can do without restriction) and rip it to FLAC for serving.  But on principle I don't like restrictions on where I can source products - I thought we were living in a global free market?

Cheers,

Mark

[JimH]

... I decided to start playing music again after nearly 30 years away from my instrument. I have dusted off my accordion and we're playing again with my wife and friends. This will soon be available but please note that Cmagic live music will only be available to European customers."
Well, if you come visit us here, you'll get some nice wine as well 

Very funny!  Maybe I can smuggle a bootleg tape back to Minnesota next time we meet.

I love accordion music.  I used to play a little Concertina around 30 years ago.

I hope you enjoy your day (what's left of it) and the wine.  It's just starting here.  Crisp air, blue skies, a whole day to wander around and do nothing.

Cheers,

Jim

[JimH]

Why are there restrictions on some products and not others?  I can understand some software, which might contain cryptographic algorithms that are prohibited for export under US law, being unavailable for (actually pretty weak) security reasons, but not consumables such as music.  I suspect its because the companies are greedy and know they can charge more in other markets (cf Apple in the UK) ...

I answered this, in part, in my first post above.

If we wanted to license music from each of the four major labels for worldwide distribution, it would cost more than $10 million, maybe even more than $25 million.  It's absurd.  It would give us the opportunity to earn it back a few pennies at a time.

I don't think it's greed.  All businesses must make a profit, and the record business is unprofitable and shrinking now.  So they are trying to find income wherever they can.

[mark_h]

If we wanted to license music from each of the four major labels for worldwide distribution, it would cost more than $10 million, maybe even more than $25 million.  It's absurd...  I don't think it's greed.

OK, then...   

Mark

[prod]

I totally agree.   I'm a UK citizen but I buy all my DVDs, Blu-Rays and the electronics to play them from the US.

Not many people, relative to the total amount of people who buy these items, do this. If many many more people did, perhaps you'll see some change. In fact, most shopping is done with no internet involved whatsoever. Maybe if the US went 230V something interesting would happen, but not likely. Remember, by buying in the UK you support UK enterprise, employment and all that bobbins that keep local economies ticking over.

I thought we were living in a global free market?

I keep hearing this, and I'm not sure where the rumour started. I believe the USA and EU are each individual free markets with certain shared trade agreements, but if I tried to buy something from Cuba or Zimbabwe things might get a bit fuzzy. The internet is a fuzzy place, probably given time it'll evolve into something more closely resembling what you're after.

[JimH]

Nice thoughts, prod.  Internet reality may be more real than political reality at this moment.  On the Internet, you and I are just P and J in the world's Alphabet soup.

[Frobozz]

and the record business is unprofitable and shrinking now. 

Part of that I attribute to the loudness war.  I'm just not interested in listening to the popular music that is being released now.  My ears and brain get tired of it very quickly.  It is not pleasant to listen to.  No wonder it's not selling well.

I have stopped buying new CDs of current music.  Instead I'm buying used classic rock and jazz from places like Amazon or a local used record shop.  The only new CDs I buy are classical.  I've pretty much stopped listening to current alternative rock and the local alternative rock radio station.

I'm not bullish on the future of businesses selling new popular music as long as the loudness war continues.  The record industry is writing its own suicide note.  I don't see much of a future in selling what they're currently offering.

[JimH]

Listening to: 'Kodachrome' from 'The Essential Paul Simon' by 'Paul Simon' on Performer Media Center

[Eccles]

I'm glad Auntie Beeb does not apply that same logic when i want to pull one of her shows.

The Beeb may not restrict the particular shows you're interested in, but when I browsed her available podcasts a couple of months ago, there were indeed several which were unavailable to anyone outside the British Isles.  (I guess they determine eligibility by IP address, in which case a UK proxy would probably suffice as a workaround if I ever get through all the Beeb shows that I am able to download!)

[vbrook]

Sorry to rant, but I will anyway :-)

-- In my view, it's very, very difficult to trace where money goes and to what. In the case of the Beeb, money they make in the US (in some case through avenues not available in the UK) does make it back to the UK in support of their operations.

--Using a proxy should work. I've done it from the US (where I'm living now), with semi-legitimacy, given that I did pay for a television license.

Ooops, none of that is a rant really, so I'll start now:

Why can't we buy Y(X) if not residing in country X? The answer is mix of pure greed and bad organisation (but more on the greed side of things). This type of question is in the same category as something else I wondered recently: Why, when I buy a DVD for my 2 year old son, do I have to put up with crap adverts that I can't fast forward through? Do I not buy a DVD so that I can get away from the crap ads on television? Why do the DVD makers label such ads as "value add"? I say let's poll everyone and ask them how much "value" they feel they're getting from those ads!

And the music industry. I won't even start. I DARE (all caps) a major-label record company to make public all of the direct and "indirect" expenses that went into the production of a recent hit CD. If they did, piracy rates would DOUBLE (at least) because people's sympathy would go from low to zero. Actually, let's extend that dare to major movie and television companies. I DARE THEM.

Ok. I'll shut up now. :-)

[JimH]

Why can't we buy Y(X) if not residing in country X? The answer is mix of pure greed and bad organisation.

Not a bad rant, but this isn't quite fair.

They (The Man aka Record Labels) own what you would like to buy.  So far so good, right?

They are struggling.  They were used to a pretty nice life.  Now it's crumbling.  They're scared.  You could probably understand that if you owned the content.

They aren't happy with how casually a lot of people "borrow" what is theirs.  Not what they think is theirs -- What Is Theirs -- They Own It.  Am I losing you?

It's still around a $10B ($20B?) business.  There are a lot of high priced managers making decisions.  Not all of them are made with you in mind.  Not all of them are good.  Some of them are stupid.  But not very many.  (I wish I was stupid enough to screw up a $10B industry.)

Still, not a bad rant.

[vbrook]

I do follow you completely. There's rules and the business strategy that arises, content ownership and IP issues.

I think that the record companies need to genuinely demonstrate two things to their customers: 1) what expenses does the price of music help cover, and 2) what will the profit be invested in? At the moment, the overwhelmingly prevailing assumption for (1) is drugs, cars, and bling, and for (2) it's the same.

I don't think average people see creating music as very expensive---and they're right, in a way. People feel they're paying for someone's lifestyle, and that's all. They're not judging those lifestyles necessarily, it's just that they're not deriving personal value from supporting someone else's lifestyle.

This is a huge driver of music piracy, in my view, and I don't think record company managers realise it. In fact, they only make the problem worse, as they continue to sell other people's lifestyles to their customers.

'Pure' stealing is another matter of course, and other types of art marketing have their own problems. But music---popular music---I still go back to greed and bad management.

V

[JimH]

I think that the record companies need to genuinely demonstrate two things to their customers: 1) what expenses does the price of music help cover, and 2) what will the profit be invested in? At the moment, the overwhelmingly prevailing assumption for (1) is drugs, cars, and bling, and for (2) it's the same.

I think the record labels have done a very poor job at communicating with customers in recent years.  Part of the problem is that they are now just massive machines.  Some of the record labels are part of bigger corporations.  I don't know who runs them, but I know they haven't been trying to talk to their customers in any meaningful way. 

For years, there has been a lot of in-fighting inside these companies.  One faction wants to do business as usual.  The other wants to charge ahead with digital.  The second group is starting to win, but it is very slow going.  They have tried and failed at so many digital ventures.  They don't seem to know where to go.  Talking with customers would be a good start.

But they aren't evil.  They aren't stupid.  A lot of consumers think so, but it isn't true.

Their attitude is maybe more like someone who lives in a really high crime neighborhood.  They don't trust anyone, and they don't go out much.

It is changing though.  Slowly.  MP3 downloads, for example.

[hit_ny]

For years, there has been a lot of in-fighting inside these companies.  One faction wants to do business as usual.  The other wants to charge ahead with digital.  The second group is starting to win, but it is very slow going.  They have tried and failed at so many digital ventures.  They don't seem to know where to go.

..as was amply shown when the company that brought us the walkman got displaced by some 'computer' company.

[JimH]

..as was amply shown when the company that brought us the walkman got displaced by some 'computer' company.

Apple earned their success.  Sony failed to realize the changes that were coming.

George Morrow, founder of a very early computer company called Morrow Designs, wrote one of the best things I've ever read about business:

Western Union had the chance to buy the telephone patents in 1883 for $40,000--even then a drop in the bucket.  They didn't do it because they thought they were in the telegraph business, when really they were in the communication business. 

Similarly, the railroads didn't realize they weren't in the train business, but the transportation business; so they sat back and watched as cars and planes took it away from them. 

[vbrook]

Ah, yes. And of course, Xerox, with their useless mouse and windows-like interface.