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Author Topic: Theater View changes in 13.0.88  (Read 21803 times)

Griff

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #50 on: December 13, 2008, 01:25:15 pm »

Hi Larry

Quote
I finding it a bit "irksome" that when I start to drill OUT of a sub-list, my highlight jumps to the top roller

You do know that by hitting "BACK" on a remote or keyboard will do what you want and bypass the top bars.

example= alt+Lf arrow.

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glynor

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #51 on: December 13, 2008, 01:43:41 pm »

I just finished really playing with it, and can I just say again...

I love the new Theater View.  Amazing job.

BTW... I figured out how to use the Toggle List Style to get my TV View setup just the way I want it, so good job on that one (before I even asked).  I assumed wrongly on that.  It looks like the Toggle List Style is cycling for the whole "Audio" or "Video" views, but that's really okay with me, I can get it how I want it and it's easy.

My only three major comments/requests/needs for it at all are:

1. "Play All" does really need to be renamed if it won't be setup to Remember the last play-related selection (in which case it should be called whatever the new default command will be.  Also, perhaps think about making  "Play All" contain only the Play-Related actions, and separate the other stuff out under a new fourth top-roller button called "Controls" or "Options" or something.  It was just counter-intuitive to me that ALL that stuff would be contained under something with a Play-related name/function, which is why it took me three days of playing with it to figure everything out.

2. I still need nestable views.  I think I thought of a way to pull nesting off cleanly.  When you add a new view, and then click the Add button under View Details, have a new Type radio button in the View Scheme Item dialog called "View Folder".  When this radio button is selected, have the right-side configuration area show an exact duplicate of the View Details part of the previous dialog (allowing new sub-views to be added and configured opening their own dialogs and whatnot).  Then, when browsing, these View Folders would be treated just like another Category.  Opening them would reveal their "content views" in the File Listing Area just using the currently configured List Style just as if they are a Genre listing or Artist listing or whatever.  No sub-sub rollers required.  Just another "tier" of breadcrumbs.

3. Some method of copy/pasting views into the Theater View view-setup dialogs.  For just one example (and a major reason why I want nestable views), I have 15 or so View Schemes in Standard View that are special complex searches (with ~mix commands and percentages to make them like fancy radio stations but which can still be browsed via Panes).  I'd really like to get these into Theater View.  Recreating these manually (which I wouldn't even begin unless I could nest views), would be a nightmare.

These three things would make me a very happy guy!  But even without them, it is still really slick, and much nicer than MC12's Theater View.
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Matt

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #52 on: December 13, 2008, 06:33:11 pm »

I love the new Theater View.  Amazing job.

Thanks.  Is it still the Rodney Dangerfield of Media Center?


Quote
2. I still need nestable views.

The view roller is an awfully easy way to switch views.  I think it makes it so nested views are a bit unnecessary.  Try it for a few weeks, and then let's talk again if you still feel it's required.



Quote
3. Some method of copy/pasting views into the Theater View view-setup dialogs.  For just one example (and a major reason why I want nestable views), I have 15 or so View Schemes in Standard View that are special complex searches (with ~mix commands and percentages to make them like fancy radio stations but which can still be browsed via Panes).  I'd really like to get these into Theater View.  Recreating these manually (which I wouldn't even begin unless I could nest views), would be a nightmare.

Agreed.  We're going to do this one.
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lalittle

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #53 on: December 13, 2008, 10:21:43 pm »

This is absolutely necessary.  I use lineup view style.  Say I'm in Audio under my Indie genre.  I scan down through the list to some arbitrary location way down on the list (with is 9 pages long of just artist names currently), but then I want to get back up to the top roller to change something using the Controls/Play All button.  Without the left-arrow-jumps-to-top-roller method, there's no way to get back to the top of the list without up-arrowing forever, which is certainly not cool.

Ah, there it is -- the piece of the puzzle that I wasn't thinking of.

Note that another option would be to have the left arrow behave like the Alt-left "back" command currently does (thanks again to Griff for pointing that out), and to get to the top roller menu, we could press a "menu" key (i.e. the DVD player paradigm.)  This would work better for me personally since I prefer the streamlined left/right in/out navigation and rarely use the menu, but it would be a somewhat different approach to navigating which may not be desirable to others.  I'm just brainstorming here in case others have similar desires to mine.

[One side note:  I can't just remap the "left" remote button to "Alt-left" because this would prevent left menu navigation.]

While you're pointing out things I missed, what about the question of whether or not it is necessary to be able to move your highlight to the breadcrumb roller?  I can't think of why this is needed -- I don't currently see any navigation capabilities this adds that you can't do with the list and top roller.  Here are my thoughts from another thread:

I realize that these things don't always work the way we think they will before trying them, but just thinking out loud here...

I'm wondering if the breadcrumb line needs to be "highlight-able" at all -- i.e. what purpose does this serve?  Isn't this path, as you said, informational, and can't we just navigate in and out using the actual list itself?  In other words, does navigating with the breadcrumb path line offer any capabilities that navigating with the list itself does not?  It seems to me that the breadcrumb path should always be visible (except when this screen space is used for the "Play All/Controls" items), but that the highlight should skip right over it (when, once again, it isn't showing the "Play All" menu items.)


Okay -- what am I missing with this one?  It seems like highlighting the breadcrumb roller is completely extraneous, but I might be missing something once again.

Thanks,

Larry
 
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lalittle

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #54 on: December 13, 2008, 10:25:10 pm »

Hi Larry

You do know that by hitting "BACK" on a remote or keyboard will do what you want and bypass the top bars.

example= alt+Lf arrow.



I did not know this -- Thanks!

THIS is the behavior I was looking for with the "left" button.

In my personal use, I would rather have the left arrow result in THIS behavior, and have to hit some sort of "menu" button to get to the top bar (see my previous post abpve.)

Thanks for pointing this out.
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raym

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #55 on: December 14, 2008, 01:15:07 am »

"Playing Now" really needs to be global - available at all times from the top roller for all views. Right now, it's burried far too deeply in the "Play All" roller IMO.

An alternative could be to position it where the "Player..." option is currently (in the "Play All" roller). This would at least make it easier to get to but again, I really think the right spot for it is at the top.

Thanks.
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rpalmer68

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #56 on: December 14, 2008, 04:56:37 am »

This is absolutely necessary.  I use lineup view style.  Say I'm in Audio under my Indie genre.  I scan down through the list to some arbitrary location way down on the list (with is 9 pages long of just artist names currently), but then I want to get back up to the top roller to change something using the Controls/Play All button.  Without the left-arrow-jumps-to-top-roller method, there's no way to get back to the top of the list without up-arrowing forever, which is certainly not cool.

It is a needed shortcut for long lists, just as Jim pointed out.

The way I see it is that left doesn't actually navigate forward and backwards through the views.  Instead it goes "back" to the top.  Then, when you hit it again, it selects the "back" button in the top roller, but doesn't force you to push enter on it as a shortcut.

I agree, and quite liked this when it was added, when I go left I want to go back so jumping up to the top and then selecting "Back" sort of shows me what's going to happen (which others have asked for).

What I DON'T LIKE is when I scroll up and the cursor jumps from the top row of thumbnails to the TOP roller bar skipping the 2nd roller bar. Just seems wrong and confusing to skip the 2nd roller on the way up.
Richard
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lalittle

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #57 on: December 14, 2008, 06:11:13 am »

What I DON'T LIKE is when I scroll up and the cursor jumps from the top row of thumbnails to the TOP roller bar skipping the 2nd roller bar. Just seems wrong and confusing to skip the 2nd roller on the way up.

My thinking is kind of the opposite -- i.e. why do we EVER need to have the highlight move to the breadcrumb path?  It doesn't add any extra navigation capabilities that I can think of (please correct me if I'm wrong on this), so why not just use the breadcrumb path for "information" purposes (i.e. your current drilled-in location), and leave the navigation highlighting to the list and the top roller?  Doesn't moving left to "back" on the top roller do exactly the same thing as moving left on the path roller?  If so, highlighting the path is completely redundant and only serves to slow down other navigation duties.

As far as I can tell, the only reason to move the highlight to the second roller would be for "Control" choices, where the breadcrumb path is temporarily replaced with a menu of selectable items.  Other than this, I think the second "roller" should be replaced with an "non-selectable" breadcrumb path which is never "hidden" like it is now.

Larry
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rebecca1

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #58 on: December 14, 2008, 07:09:05 am »

The view roller is an awfully easy way to switch views.  I think it makes it so nested views are a bit unnecessary.  Try it for a few weeks, and then let's talk again if you still feel it's required.

I agree with glynor, I have lots of tv box sets and without nestable its not very intuitive. Imagine how much more inflexible your harddrive management would be without nested folders.
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gappie

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #59 on: December 14, 2008, 08:14:01 am »


The view roller is an awfully easy way to switch views.  I think it makes it so nested views are a bit unnecessary.  Try it for a few weeks, and then let's talk again if you still feel it's required.

the view roller is an easy way to switch views indeed. that is when you only have a few of them. without the nesting it is a pain to switch, the roller gets to crowded or the result is really limited.

i think the view roller is really a winner when nesting would be possible. would make thv a good way to browse through a large library. choose different ways to go through it and different paths. just like you can in standard view.

 :)
gab
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glynor

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #60 on: December 14, 2008, 10:40:26 am »

THIS is the behavior I was looking for with the "left" button.

In my personal use, I would rather have the left arrow result in THIS behavior, and have to hit some sort of "menu" button to get to the top bar (see my previous post abpve.)

Remember... One of the stated goals of Theater View is to have it work 100% with access to only: left, right, up, down, and enter.  Any change like this would break this functionality.

I think you are going to just have to live with one extra left arrow keypress.  Not a big deal because it is only required the first time you press "back" (after which you are already on the top roller and can just continue to go back until you get where you need to go or to the root).
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mabes

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #61 on: December 14, 2008, 01:28:12 pm »

Just started playing with the new skin and I'll just use a cliche and say wow, just wow. It has so many things TV didn't have the last time I looked at it. So great job.

But like everyone there are a couple of things I would prefer. I hesitate to post this shot since I did in another tread but it really is more appropriate here. One of the most important things to me is how the player looks when you are just listening to music. And I spent a lot of time getting good quality album covers and I like to see them are large as possible. If it could be configured as in these  shots

http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/3/12/13/f_untitledm_1f842d7.png&srv=img33
http://img26.picoodle.com/img/img26/3/12/14/f_untitledm_6bc4ad4.png

t certainly makes the covers large, but also, when looking at the songs in the Now Playing list, there would be room for a lot more songs when you just have the text list style. And with thumbnail views of upcoming tracks, there would be less empty space.

In Standard View you have the option of a split screen either horizontally or vertically, so maybe it could just be an option.

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rpalmer68

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #62 on: December 14, 2008, 02:18:14 pm »

the view roller is an easy way to switch views indeed. that is when you only have a few of them. without the nesting it is a pain to switch, the roller gets to crowded or the result is really limited.

i think the view roller is really a winner when nesting would be possible. would make Theater View a good way to browse through a large library. choose different ways to go through it and different paths. just like you can in standard view.

 :)
gab

Exactly, the views roller is getting very crowded for my music already, currently 12 entries and 7 entries for video.

I'm happy to continue to play with it but I stil feel nesting the views allows a better browsing experience for usres by guiding them through the library better.

Richard
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rpalmer68

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #63 on: December 14, 2008, 02:21:30 pm »


As far as I can tell, the only reason to move the highlight to the second roller would be for "Control" choices, where the breadcrumb path is temporarily replaced with a menu of selectable items.  Other than this, I think the second "roller" should be replaced with an "non-selectable" breadcrumb path which is never "hidden" like it is now.


Step outside Larry  ;D

The 2nd roller is the only way I cna see of changing the view scheme selected, so if I'm in \Video\Movies and want to switch to Video\TV shows  I have to get to the 2nd roller to do this.

At the moment I have to go up to the top roller and then back down to the views, just seems a wierd way of doing it, and extra key presses.

Of course I could be wrong too :)

Richard
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lalittle

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #64 on: December 14, 2008, 06:38:19 pm »

Remember... One of the stated goals of Theater View is to have it work 100% with access to only: left, right, up, down, and enter.  Any change like this would break this functionality.

I agree -- I was just thinking out loud.

Quote
I think you are going to just have to live with one extra left arrow keypress.  Not a big deal because it is only required the first time you press "back" (after which you are already on the top roller and can just continue to go back until you get where you need to go or to the root).

In all fairness, it actually results in three extra button presses (not just one) since it requires re-navigating back down to the list, which at the moment requires two more button presses due to the stop on the breadcrumb line, but once again, I now understand why it's needed.  It would help, however, if we eliminated the extra stop on the "breadcrumb" line, which I have yet to see a valid reason for.  Once again, does having the breadcrumb line "highlightable" bring anything extra to the table?  Doesn't it work better to just navigate "in" on the list and "out" on the top roller, and use the breadcrumb line for information only?  (Note that I'm only talking about the "breadcrumb" line, which is when the second line is not being used for a menu roller.)

Thanks again for the feedback,

Larry
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lalittle

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #65 on: December 14, 2008, 07:16:16 pm »

Step outside Larry  ;D

The 2nd roller is the only way I cna see of changing the view scheme selected, so if I'm in \Video\Movies and want to switch to Video\TV shows  I have to get to the 2nd roller to do this.

At the moment I have to go up to the top roller and then back down to the views, just seems a wierd way of doing it, and extra key presses.

Of course I could be wrong too :)

Richard

Wait -- we're not on the same page here.  We're talking about two different things -- the "breadcrumb roller" and the various "Controls" or "Menu" rollers, which happen to use the same line at different times.  As far as I know (please let me know) changing from Video/Movies to Video/TV would not be effected because a "breadcrumb" roller is NOT being used at this level.  At this level, isn't the 2nd line a menu where you can move left OR right and make selections.  If so, you have what I refer to as a "control" or "menu" roller.  The "breadcrumb" roller, on the other hand, is a simple "left-only" or "out-only" roller that simply shows you the drilled in position of where you are, and where the ONLY control is to move left, which is "out" of a sub-list.  Highlighting THIS line is what I find extraneous since you can do the EXACT same thing by hitting "left" on the top roller, which is where MC puts you by default.  Offering the SAME navigation on the second line is redundant.

In other words, what I'm saying is that WHEN the second roller is showing you a breadcrumb path, we don't need to be able to highlight it since it offers no extra navigation capabilities (that I can see so far) -- it simply adds extra navigation keystrokes when the highlight moves to it.  If you navigate to something that needs to use this same line as a "controls" or "menu" roller, it replaces the breadcrumb line and becomes highlight-able and therefore navigable.  I'm also asking that any time this second line is not being used for "controls" or "menu" selection, it shows the breadcrumb path.

Just to clarify, the two changes I'm suggesting are:

1)  Rather than hiding the breadcrumb info, have it always displaying unless this line is being used for control or other menu choices.  The use of specific text size/shades/colors creates an unobtrusive, clean look already -- hiding it has little effect the "look" of the screen, but a big effect on functionality.

2)  When this line is displaying breadcrumb info, leave it as a non-highlight-able, info-only line.  This saves keystrokes without limiting navigation capabilities.

All the "Play All/Controls" behavior remains exactly the same, as does anything that uses the 2nd roller as a menu where left AND right navigation is currently available.

I'd be interested in hearing your feedback on this.

Larry
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)p(

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #66 on: December 15, 2008, 12:26:03 am »


The view roller is an awfully easy way to switch views.  I think it makes it so nested views are a bit unnecessary.  Try it for a few weeks, and then let's talk again if you still feel it's required.



using a nested hierarchy is a different browse concept, even if the roller would perfect I still would prefer to be able to use nesting...it represents best my flow of thinking when selecting stuff...

peter
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park

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #67 on: December 15, 2008, 01:26:18 am »

I'm with rpalmer. Up from the list should take us to the breadcrumbs so that we can use it to navigate. Up again should take us to the top roller so that we can do something more global, such as change view.

Left from the left of the list should also take us to the breadcrumbs for the same reason.
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lalittle

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #68 on: December 15, 2008, 03:08:23 am »

I'm with rpalmer. Up from the list should take us to the breadcrumbs so that we can use it to navigate.

Do you mean changing the way the top roller currently works?  If so, this might make sense.  In the current configuration, however, where is the benefit to being able to highlight the breadcrumb path?  All you can do from the breadcrumb roller (i.e. the second line when it's in a "breadcrumb state") is hit "left," which backs out one sub-level.  You can already do this from the top roller, so what does this accomplish other than adding unnecessary navigation keystrokes?

In other words, are you talking about changing the top roller to a "Controls Menu" of some sort that does NOT have the "back" button and therefore does not allow actual list navigation?

Personally, shouldn't we use the second line for 1) control sub-menus (i.e. like highlighting "play all" or the main media groups at this time), and 2) for displaying the breadcrumb path at all other times (for a constant, instant point of reference to our current position.)  This way, we don't lose ANY navigation capability that we currently have, but we eliminate navigation keystrokes since the highlight no longer "stops" on the breadcrumb path.

Is there a flaw in this logic somewhere?

Thanks,

Larry
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rpalmer68

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #69 on: December 15, 2008, 03:37:27 am »

OK, I see where you are comign from Larry... we may not need to step outside after all :)

As you say with the current use of the top row, when breadcrumbs are "active" the breadcrumb row doesn't really serve any purpose other than being informational, as "Back" in the top row achieves the same thing.

BUT

When I enter say "Video" from the main meny, the 2nd row is then my list of Views I have defined.
"Movies", "Home Movies", "TV Recordings" etc.

If I say highlight "Movies" and then arrow down to browse the thumbnails but then realise I should be in "Home Movies" when I arrow up to get back to the Views Roller (2nd Roller) to change the view scheme to "Home Movies" I jump straight to the TOP row and have to then arrow down again to get to the views... this is the bit that's driving me MAD, the flow is just wrong!


Cheers
Richard
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prod

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #70 on: December 15, 2008, 04:04:49 am »

Had a bit of a shindig last night (got a god awful headache this morning) so set up this new fangled Theatre View to give it the run round. I stuck the remote in someone's hand and let them loose with it. So it went really well, everyone loved it and picked it up real fast - in fact in the end even the girls were grabbing up the remote to have a browse round. Initially I think they were a bit intimidated but they warmed to the pure simplicity of the interface.

Impressive stuff. Just a few comments...

1. Having to recreate all my views seemed a bit unnecessary. Minor gripe I know, but I'm work-shy.
2. I like to keep my music videos under Audio, but it won't let me!
3. The lower roller that lists the views disappears and appears ... and makes for a bit of confusion. On selecting Audio, it would be good to have that roller selected by default, rather than the just first item in the list.

Anyway, back to my soluble aspirin... thanks
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mabes

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #71 on: December 15, 2008, 10:42:33 am »

How do you add views? I mean I see you name it, and it can be a program or webpage, and there is a parameter, but to add something like Home Movies above? Can I add something like Genre Rock? I added AllMusic.com and it worked, can you have it go directly to the Now Playing artist?
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gappie

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #72 on: December 15, 2008, 10:49:29 am »

How do you add views? I mean I see you name it, and it can be a program or webpage, and there is a parameter, but to add something like Home Movies above? Can I add something like Genre Rock? I added AllMusic.com and it worked, can you have it go directly to the Now Playing artist?

when you go to options>theaterview you see something like the 1st attachment. click on audio and on edit. an form like the 2nd attachment opens.. here you can add views etc

 :)
gab

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mabes

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #73 on: December 15, 2008, 10:54:39 am »

Ah. Thanks

 
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MrHaugen

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #74 on: December 15, 2008, 02:13:35 pm »

Here's my thoughts and comments of previous suggested ideas, and a few new ones:

1.
The view roller is an awfully easy way to switch views.  I think it makes it so nested views are a bit unnecessary.  Try it for a few weeks, and then let's talk again if you still feel it's required.
Oh oh. Please, no. Don't say that. It will make the life a bit more troublesome for many of us. I've been used to having img and iso files etc under Video now (MC12), and it works great. I know this can be done today, if you mark each file as video, but it's not really a good solution if you're importing several DVD's every week. Even though it is easy to change the views now, we will actually have to go out in the main menu, select another category, and then possibly have to change to the correct view. This will also cause someone having to make unreasonably many view scheems, and it will be hard to find the right ones from the Second Roller. I think it is totally necessary to allow users to include whatever data they want in wich ever view they want. Music videos under Audio or Video for example; both ways are logical, and none should be forced to accept one or the other. This flexibility is one of the things that makes this application unique. It was available, and have, unfortunately, been take away from us. I know you rebuilt the View Scheme stuff, but it can't be that much problem to have this functionality can it? I can't belive that this causes problems for inexperienced users...

OK.  We'll add nesting back this week.
This suggested that the nesting would return, but I was wrong. With the new amazing Theater View, and a lot of other good stuff implemented, it breaks my heart that I STILL can't use MC13. I'll just have to be patient I guess. Something as important as this can't go unadressed; I hope.

2. Customizable details view (wich details and fields to show), and details view for more levels than last

3. Although the theater view have been improved much, I feel it would be in it's place to add some more graphical improvements. This is just a quick mockup, and the images doesnt go really well with the skin. But the main menu have much potential for graphical content non the less. http://pix01.com/wW@ETwv Something along the lines of the graphical elements of the Bluetoo skin would be great.

4. Rename "Play All" at Top Roller to something clever. I played with the new skin for almost an hour and did not find the List Style. Read it here. I was scared it was removed from the skin.

5. Would be neat to have playing now at top Top roller, or remember the last used Control (Play all)

6. Away with the ugly background. Some sort of none intrusive and nice background similar to the PS3 background for instance
7. Hitting up arrow from the top roller allows wrapping to the bottom of the list

Don't-go-there stuff:
1. No enter hit for back button please. It will be really troublesome if you're in a far down level. I belive it will not be a big problem after people are used to the new navigation.

2.
My thinking is kind of the opposite -- i.e. why do we EVER need to have the highlight move to the breadcrumb path?  It doesn't add any extra navigation capabilities that I can think of (please correct me if I'm wrong on this), so why not just use the breadcrumb path for "information" purposes (i.e. your current drilled-in location), and leave the navigation highlighting to the list and the top roller?  Doesn't moving left to "back" on the top roller do exactly the same thing as moving left on the path roller?  If so, highlighting the path is completely redundant and only serves to slow down other navigation duties.
Exactly. There's no need imo. I don't care about the breadcrumbs, and I beleve most normal users wouldnt either. If you use right context, most of the details would be available at the detail level. At least make it an option to turn it off, if it ever have to be in plain sight all the time. The more stuff on screen, the worse it will look.
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JimH

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #75 on: December 15, 2008, 03:57:27 pm »

This suggested that the nesting would return, but I was wrong.
No.  You're not wrong.  Nesting will return.
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MrHaugen

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #76 on: December 15, 2008, 04:08:18 pm »

No.  You're not wrong.  Nesting will return.

Goodie! I never really had any doubts. Was just afraid I had to live with MC12 for too long.
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Matt

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #77 on: December 15, 2008, 05:01:41 pm »

I still don't understand how nesting is better than the view roller.  It's the same, just different.  Both are ways to pick views.

Could someone help me understand this better?

Please remember that showing data under video or video under audio is a separate issue from how you choose views. (and also not an idea I personally understand too well)

Thanks.
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MrHaugen

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #78 on: December 15, 2008, 05:42:04 pm »

I still don't understand how nesting is better than the view roller.  It's the same, just different.  Both are ways to pick views.
I have to disagree. It not the same. Nesting, as I know and use it, are there to make you organize you're media in the way you feel is logical. View roller is just a way to access and pick you're different "baskets" of media fast. Sure, you could have a lot of views instead of nesting, but then you'd have to switch between them all the time, and you're guests would be asking a lot of questions. I'd hate to switch to it's own view just to watch my DVD's, when I have all other avi's, mpg's, mkv's etc under a Video view. If youre setup is complicated enough you might have problems rememembering wich views contains what. In my head a media center only contains Audio, Video and Images. But there is several media types that fall in between here.


I don't think I'm the biggest user of nesting on this forum. So I hope others can explain the advantages a little better than me.
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gappie

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #79 on: December 15, 2008, 05:55:28 pm »

I still don't understand how nesting is better than the view roller.  It's the same, just different.  Both are ways to pick views.

Could someone help me understand this better?

Please remember that showing data under video or video under audio is a separate issue from how you choose views. (and also not an idea I personally understand too well)

Thanks.
no, the roller is the same as the good ol' view button, only much nicer. a first step to go through your media. as i said before using it for all your views, makes the roller a mess.

one example.. videos
in the roller you could put
movies
series
music
documentaries
home vids

when i would put for movies the next items also there:
director
alphabetic
genre
number played
guess

it is a mess..
then some views for docus and series also.. and it is unbrowsable. and in audio there are much more..
something that could be organized nicely in mc12 Theater View.

 :)
gab

its a bit like saying that you only may have like 10 views in the tree....
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rpalmer68

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #80 on: December 15, 2008, 06:02:09 pm »

I still don't understand how nesting is better than the view roller.  It's the same, just different.  Both are ways to pick views.


I use nesting to Group my views into somethign logical for browsing.

So for audio I have totally different views for classical as I do for Jazz and again for pop type stuff.

As gappie said, the roller replaces the old views button (and is much better!) but it doesn't help to group views together.

I know you told me to prefix the view name for the roller, so I'd have "Classical: By composer, Classical: By Orchestra, Classical: By Soloist" etc, but this makes a lot of entries on the roller and thus will make browsing more confusing for people not easier.

If I could just select from "Classical" from the roller, and then be presented with just classical related views, to me that's a much more logical and cleaner way to browse.

Cheers
Richard
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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #81 on: December 15, 2008, 06:22:31 pm »

Alright, I'm on board.  Nest away.  Thanks for helping me understand.

Now we just need to figure out how the configuration interface should look and work.  One problem is that a lot of people aren't finding where to customize.  Then we need an easy way to copy schemes from Standard View.  And of course, we need nesting.
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rpalmer68

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #82 on: December 15, 2008, 06:42:14 pm »

Alright, I'm on board.  Nest away.  Thanks for helping me understand.

Cool. Thanks

Now we just need to figure out how the configuration interface should look and work.  One problem is that a lot of people aren't finding where to customize.  Then we need an easy way to copy schemes from Standard View.  And of course, we need nesting.

I know we all had this discussion in the bata board for a while... I'll have to revisit it before I make more suggestions :)

Thanks for listening to us...

Richard
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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #83 on: December 15, 2008, 07:07:30 pm »

Alright, I'm on board.  Nest away.  Thanks for helping me understand.


thanks
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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #84 on: December 15, 2008, 07:20:48 pm »

Exactly. There's no need imo. I don't care about the breadcrumbs, and I beleve most normal users wouldnt either. If you use right context, most of the details would be available at the detail level. At least make it an option to turn it off, if it ever have to be in plain sight all the time. The more stuff on screen, the worse it will look.

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing.  I DO use the breadcrumb path ALL THE TIME -- I just use it for information purposes.  What I'm saying is that it doesn't seem like the breadcrumb path needs to  be "highlightable" since it doesn't add any extra navigation capabilities that we don't already have.

Is THIS what you agree with?  It sounded like you were saying that you didn't want the breadcrumb path at ALL -- not even displayed.  If this is what you were saying, I STRONGLY disagree, and I disagree about most users not using it.  I think that most users absolutely WOULD use it to see, for example, what genre they're in when they're browsing albums or songs.  It's a pain to have to navigate up and then back down again just to check your current position in the hierarchy.

Larry
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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #85 on: December 16, 2008, 12:14:45 am »

Alright, I'm on board.  Nest away.  Thanks for helping me understand.



Thanks...its one of the most importent features to me!

peter
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lalittle

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #86 on: December 16, 2008, 03:36:41 am »

OK, I see where you are comign from Larry... we may not need to step outside after all :)

As you say with the current use of the top row, when breadcrumbs are "active" the breadcrumb row doesn't really serve any purpose other than being informational, as "Back" in the top row achieves the same thing.

BUT

When I enter say "Video" from the main meny, the 2nd row is then my list of Views I have defined.
"Movies", "Home Movies", "TV Recordings" etc.

If I say highlight "Movies" and then arrow down to browse the thumbnails but then realise I should be in "Home Movies" when I arrow up to get back to the Views Roller (2nd Roller) to change the view scheme to "Home Movies" I jump straight to the TOP row and have to then arrow down again to get to the views... this is the bit that's driving me MAD, the flow is just wrong!

If I'm following what you're saying correctly, the issue you're having isn't effected with what I'm advocating.  Making the breadcrumb path "non-highlightable" doesn't change your situation -- you'll have to do the "up/down" dance either way because the "Movies", "Home Movies", "TV Recordings" line is a "menu" and not a "breadcrumb path."  As such, it is not effect by changing some of the characteristics of the second line when it's in "breadcrumb mode."

I think that some confusion comes from the fact that the second line is used for two different things -- menus AND the breadcrumb path info.  I'm only talking about making changes to this line when it's in "breadcrumb mode."

Note also that the "up/down" dance is something that I've been running into as well, so I think that this might just be an unavoidable compromise that comes from trying to make the paradigm work the best it can in so many different situations.

I'd really appreciate any further thoughts or discussion on this since this is the time to try different things out and see what works best.  Just out of curiosity, is the JR team open to these ideas?  I haven't heard any reaction from anyone at JR on this particular issue -- i.e. 1) keeping the breadcrumb info visible rather than hiding it, and 2) making the second line non-highlightable when in "breadcrumb mode."  I've been using Theater View in the living room for a while now, so my opinions come from real experiences.

Thanks,

Larry
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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #87 on: December 16, 2008, 04:27:49 am »

Alright, I'm on board.  Nest away.  Thanks for helping me understand.

That's great Matt. Thanks so much!

Now we just need to figure out how the configuration interface should look and work.  One problem is that a lot of people aren't finding where to customize.  Then we need an easy way to copy schemes from Standard View.  And of course, we need nesting.

Yeah, perhaps the Options dialog's not the best place for this. Although I've finally become used to it, I've seen first-hand the confusion this has caused others. I don't know what the right answer is but one option could be to leave the views in the tree where they've always been. Then, in the Option's dialog, provide a way to link them (rather than re-creating them) to the "items to show" area for Theater View. This approach has a number of benefits:

1. Keeps all viewschemes together - MC-wide
2. Makes it easy to test theater view views in standard view
3. Allows users to re-use existing Standard views for Theater View
4. Customisation is still done under Options, which makes sense. It just doesn't make sense to create views in there.

Thanks.
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MrHaugen

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #88 on: December 16, 2008, 04:33:01 am »

Is THIS what you agree with?

Bingo! You deciphered my bad writing :D No need to highlight because it don't add any functionality.
The confusion here is caused because I went a step further explaining that I don't see the big need for breadcrumbs at all. I usually remember where I am, and can see from the context what I'm looking at. I'm a neat freak. I like it clean and simple :) The breadcrumbs could be visible all the time, if there was a way to hide it.
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gappie

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #89 on: December 16, 2008, 04:49:58 am »


Yeah, perhaps the Options dialog's not the best place for this. Although I've finally become used to it, I've seen first-hand the confusion this has caused others. I don't know what the right answer is but one option could be to leave the views in the tree where they've always been. Then, in the Option's dialog, provide a way to link them (rather than re-creating them) to the "items to show" area for Theater View. This approach has a number of benefits:

1. Keeps all viewschemes together - MC-wide
2. Makes it easy to test theater view views in standard view
3. Allows users to re-use existing Standard views for Theater View
4. Customisation is still done under Options, which makes sense. It just doesn't make sense to create views in there.

Thanks.


i think that that is a great idea.. and then on the option page beside the items to show, the list of views that have been added? and a way to add them..
something like that?

 :)
gab
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imugli

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #90 on: December 16, 2008, 07:10:48 am »


Got Dynamite (video background) to run in this skin.

So coooooool.

What is this video background? Sounds interesting...

glynor

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #91 on: December 16, 2008, 12:30:12 pm »

Alright, I'm on board.  Nest away.  Thanks for helping me understand.

Now we just need to figure out how the configuration interface should look and work.  One problem is that a lot of people aren't finding where to customize.  Then we need an easy way to copy schemes from Standard View.  And of course, we need nesting.

Yay!

I still think (from the old original discussions about Theater View changes) that the best option is to create a new Top Level hierarchy in the tree of Standard View where you are able to design your Theater View views (and copy/paste from the other existing ones) like you would manage any other view.  This solves both nesting (just nest them like you would any other View in the Standard View tree) and copy/paste of existing views in and out.

If you need to have the Theater View view configuration dialogs work differently than the standard View config dialogs, it isn't a big deal to have anything in this special Top Level hierarchy treated differently than something under Audio or Video is normally.  Keeping them segregated like that will also allow you to add an "Items to Show" in the Options to allow them to be hidden for advanced users who don't want to see them anymore once you get it all set up how you like.
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glynor

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #92 on: December 16, 2008, 01:57:37 pm »

This weekend, I spent some additional time playing with Theater View.  I also sat my wife down and let her use it completely unguided, as a test.  First of all, she was very enthusiastic about the new functionality.  Thrilled and quite impressed, so I think you get a "good job" from her as well.

However, it did starkly and quickly reveal a few issues.  Most of these were discussed fairly thoroughly above by others (especially park and rpalmer).  Basically, it boils down to two major things.

1) There is no way to tell which view is currently active when you open on of the main "top-level" Theater View sections (audio, video, or images), and likewise there is no intuitive cues that there is any way to change your current view.

2) The Top Roller has a weird hybrid functionality and navigation using it isn't intuitive. "Play All" is badly named or contains way too many unrelated functions, the top roller is used sometimes for navigation and sometimes for other controls and configuration, and the Breadcrumbs Roller (separate from the initial Views roller shown) is not used for anything at all.  The breadcrumbs roller also hides itself when you have your highlight on the file/categories list area, which makes it hard to tell where you are in the categories hierarchy without going back up to check manually.

I see these issues as somewhat related.  I agree with many of the posts along these lines above, but I thought it might be useful to put together a coherent suggestion for solving both of these issues.

To solve issue #1 above, I suggest that the Secondary Roller be made permanently visible, or (at the very least) this should be the default configuration (allowing skins to auto-hide it).  I understand why you want to hide it to preserve the clean, simple UI.  However, this is making the interface more confusing as-is, particularly to less-sophisticated users.

Like many others, I have specific TV Show, Home Videos, and Movies video views in Theater View.  My TV Shows view contains the Series and Season categories, and filters the list to show only TV Shows.  Other views work similarly.  Actually, this brings up a second (unrelated) point... Why are the default Video views that MC comes with effectively completely useless?  It just feels like Video isn't getting any "love" here.  MC should have, imho, at least those three views by default in both Standard and Theater views.

Either way, the first issue my wife saw immediately when opening Theater View and going to Video was that there was no way (apparently) to get to the Movies.  I had last used the TV Shows view, and so it auto-opened Video in that view.  However, because the skin doesn't show the second roller by default, there was no visual cue that there was some way to change this and that there were other views available.  There was no way to tell intuitively that you were in the "TV Shows" view.  So, that was the first question I had to answer.  Once I showed her this, she immediately said "well that's silly, it should always show that row (meaning roller).  How am I supposed to know that?"

The second issue she ran into immediately was that she got "lost" occasionally when navigating around in the TV Shows View, due to the lack of the visible Breadcrumbs.  This isn't an issue that I had regularly, but she hit it nearly immediately.  After thinking about it a bit, I figured out why, and why some Audio/Images-centric users of Theater View might not regularly hit the issue.  When you are navigating a standard Audio Genre/Artist/Album view scheme, the Thumbnails contain a lot of "useful" information.  Even when you've drilled down into the Alternative Rock genre, it is easy to intuitively tell where you are by the artists contained within.  The thumbnails displayed give you a very easy-to-grok visual cue as to where you are.  Furthermore, when you drill down into a particular artist's album, you can tell immediately that you are looking at the albums from that particular artist (via the thumbnails) if you know that artist's music at all.

In a Video TV Show view, though, this is quite different.  Once you open a particular Series, all you are presented with is a set of all very similar (or often identical) thumbnails with numbers (1, 2, 3, 4, 5) for the different Seasons.  "What show did I open?" becomes a common question for people who navigate slowly and sometimes open the wrong thing (many computer novices).  The only way to figure it out is to go back up to the top and you lose your current highlight position.  This becomes even worse when you navigate into a big list of shows (down to the file level), which all have names and numbers but it isn't clear what Series they're from.

Even in Audio, she occasionally got confused.  She'd be in the Genre view (the default, I haven't changed my Audio views at all except to remove a few that I won't use).  She'd drill into Psychedelic Rock.  Play a few tracks by Pink Floyd (or whatever).  Switch it to Display View to watch G-Force for a while, then switch back to Theater View to pick something different.  It'd remember where she was, and she'd drill back out to the Artist list (but not all the way to the Genres list), go down and arrow down through the list of artists, and then wonder why she couldn't find the Beastie Boys or whatever.  I'd have to remind her that she was in the Psychedelic Rock genre and she needed to go back to find the proper Genre.  Again, if the Breadcrumbs were always visible, this would solve the problem (or at least mitigate it).

Likewise, I had to explain manually that hitting the left arrow would jump back to the top roller and then hitting it again would go "back a step".

I think all of this can be solved easily by taking these steps:

1) Always show the Secondary Roller, including when Breadcrumbs are visible there, at least by default with the default skin.
2) When in a Particular view, include the name of this view (TV Shows, Movies, Genre, Artist, etc) at the far left side (root) of the Breadcrumbs once you've drilled into a sub-category.  That way, you can always tell that your browsing by Genre or TV Show even when drilled down a few levels.
3) Change the navigation slightly so that hitting Left Arrow from the file list jumps you to the Secondary Roller (Breadcrumbs usually) instead of the Top Roller.  A second press of the Left Arrow would work identically to the current system, except that it would be obvious (from looking at the Breadcrumbs) where it would take you.  So the Top Roller would be used ONLY for controls, and the Secondary Roller would be used ONLY for navigation.  They'd be clearly separate and easy to understand.

Change number 3 above actually also presents another useful opportunity.  You will no longer need the "Back" option in the Top Roller at all!  Therefore, it would be easy to add a new "third" button to the Top Roller and move some of the commands from under "Play All" over to this new button.  I'd still keep the "top level" view name in the middle (Audio, Video, or Images).  That's nice how it is.  But it'd be easy to move some of the other commands over to a new "Controls" (or "Options" or "Commands") button on the left (where Back is currently).  There's just way too many un-related controls under that button.  I understand that you don't want to add too much complexity to it (good plan).  This way would allow you to keep the Top Roller to a max of three items, but still allow you to break out some of those commands into a separate "set".
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BillT

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #93 on: December 16, 2008, 02:34:10 pm »

Yeah, perhaps the Options dialog's not the best place for this. Although I've finally become used to it, I've seen first-hand the confusion this has caused others. I don't know what the right answer is but one option could be to leave the views in the tree where they've always been. Then, in the Option's dialog, provide a way to link them (rather than re-creating them) to the "items to show" area for Theater View. This approach has a number of benefits:

1. Keeps all viewschemes together - MC-wide
2. Makes it easy to test theater view views in standard view
3. Allows users to re-use existing Standard views for Theater View
4. Customisation is still done under Options, which makes sense. It just doesn't make sense to create views in there.


In fact you could put a tick box in the edit view scheme dialogue box saying "Show in Theatre View"; that should do it. (Or would that be too close to going back to MC12?)

I've spent some time over the past couple of days playing with the Theatre View options in MC13 and it does seem to be possible to get nesting to work, although not quite in the same way as MC12. I didn't realise that you had the option to set up multiple views in the Theatre View setup dialogue box.

One of the ways that I want to select my classical music is via a sub genre (e.g. chamber, vocal, orchestral) and then composer then album. So setting a view called Classical (rule genre=classical) and then in the right hand box Genre 2, Composer, Album actually does give (what I think of as) nested views and almost replicates what I was doing in MC12. It's not quite the same because one of my sub genre categories was Collections, for albums with more than one composer. In the new MC13 theatre view view options I have to add a rule to ignore those items and create a different view for them.

Is there a way to stop the view menu from displaying all your view schemes? I have over 30 and the items that I want to access from this menu are now hidden at the bottom of this list (of items that I don't want to get at from this menu, although I appreciate others may want to.)

While I have been writing this I see that Glynor has raised a lot of issues relating to navigation that I agree with. With a scheme like mine it is easy to lose track of where you are. One change that I would like is that selecting the a scheme from the Home menu (in my case Audio) should return you to the root of that scheme. At the moment it seems to return you to your last view, which means that the only way to get back to the top level is to keep going back up the hierarchy of views.
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glynor

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #94 on: December 16, 2008, 02:41:25 pm »

In fact you could put a tick box in the edit view scheme dialogue box saying "Show in Theatre View"; that should do it. (Or would that be too close to going back to MC12?)

The problem with that is that many people have custom designed Views that are for Theater View only and they don't want the Audio, Images, and Video parts of their Standard View tree all "gunked up" with these useless-for-Standard-View views.  I, personally, don't have this issue, but it was discussed at length in the past.

I think the separate-but-equal system for Theater View does present some good opportunities for allowing the Theater View configuration dialogs to present options not relevant or present in the Standard View configuration, so it is probably good to keep them separate.
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MrHaugen

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #95 on: December 16, 2008, 05:17:48 pm »

To solve issue #1 above, I suggest that the Secondary Roller be made permanently visible, or (at the very least) this should be the default configuration (allowing skins to auto-hide it).  I understand why you want to hide it to preserve the clean, simple UI.  However, this is making the interface more confusing as-is, particularly to less-sophisticated users.
I have to disagree at some extent here. I belive that most less-sophisticated users acually don't have that many views to begin with, and therefor don't really need to be reminded of wich view they are in. I have mostly used modified normal Audio and Video views my self. At least in MC12, with nesting available. I had everything including series, movies, music videos etc etc. showing exactly as I wanted. With only one view. Allways knew where I was. Never had to look at the position or bread crumbs thing at all. I just remember that once in a while I looked at it and thought about how ugly it was. If you also have some informative context at the detail level, I don't really see why most users with less than huge librarys have to use bread crumbs to know where they are. This take me to another minor request. Make the standard context include more than name please. It's hard for people to start with if's and all the parantheses (or (how (ever it's written))).

I totally understand that people also miss this if they're using a lot of views, and have a lot of levels in theire media collection. But I think that this is something that should be hidden as it is, and only be turned on through options if needed. I belive that the power users are more likeley to find this option, than the less sophisticated users are (if they wanted to turn it off). As I've pointed out earlier, I belive it's really important to have any skins as clean as possible to look the best.

3) Change the navigation slightly so that hitting Left Arrow from the file list jumps you to the Secondary Roller (Breadcrumbs usually) instead of the Top Roller.  A second press of the Left Arrow would work identically to the current system, except that it would be obvious (from looking at the Breadcrumbs) where it would take you.  So the Top Roller would be used ONLY for controls, and the Secondary Roller would be used ONLY for navigation.  They'd be clearly separate and easy to understand.

Change number 3 above actually also presents another useful opportunity.  You will no longer need the "Back" option in the Top Roller at all!  Therefore, it would be easy to add a new "third" button to the Top Roller and move some of the commands from under "Play All" over to this new button.  I'd still keep the "top level" view name in the middle (Audio, Video, or Images).  That's nice how it is.  But it'd be easy to move some of the other commands over to a new "Controls" (or "Options" or "Commands") button on the left (where Back is currently).  There's just way too many un-related controls under that button.  I understand that you don't want to add too much complexity to it (good plan).  This way would allow you to keep the Top Roller to a max of three items, but still allow you to break out some of those commands into a separate "set".
This one I TOTALLY agree with though. Would be a lot more intuitive/logical and navigation friendly.
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Matt

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #96 on: December 16, 2008, 05:34:22 pm »

Change number 3 above actually also presents another useful opportunity.  You will no longer need the "Back" option in the Top Roller at all!

That change would make touch-screen and mouse usage more cumbersome, I think.
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glynor

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #97 on: December 16, 2008, 05:38:14 pm »

I would probably argue that the most common time when a "truly clueless user" needs to use MC's Theater View would be at the home of a more sophisticated user.  EG: spouses, girl/boyfriends, children, friends, neighbors, house-sitters, etc.  Those that are suffering through on their own, probably have graduated from "truly clueless user" to "marginally clued-in user" just through the process of trying to get it set up.

Those who don't, probably just use whatever views MC includes by default, which is IMHO an argument for including better default views anyway (which would require you to be able to see them to choose them).

Someone like you who is sophisticated enough to set up your own complex all-in-one view can probably be counted upon to change to a different "Obsidian Clean" skin if this one small extra roller really bothers you.  I'm not sure at all how you could have gotten one view set up to effectively navigate all the different video types all in one view, unless you don't have very many TV Shows or home movies in your library.
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glynor

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #98 on: December 16, 2008, 05:40:48 pm »

That change would make touch-screen and mouse usage more cumbersome, I think.

Nah, why wouldn't you just "click on" the breadcrumbs themselves?  Arrow-key users don't need the "back link" anyway, and mouse/touchscreen users will just click on the breadcrumbs directly.  Besides, for those few people who really need it, you can just have the "back" link at the far left of the breadcrumbs and have it optional either in the Tools-->Options config or in the skin.
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lalittle

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Re: Theater View changes in 13.0.88
« Reply #99 on: December 16, 2008, 07:29:08 pm »

Sorry for the long post -- lots of feedback here.  Hopefully somebody will read the whole thing.

The breadcrumbs roller also hides itself when you have your highlight on the file/categories list area, which makes it hard to tell where you are in the categories hierarchy without going back up to check manually.

This is what I keep running into, and why many of my suggestions center around this issue.

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The second issue she ran into immediately was that she got "lost" occasionally when navigating around in the TV Shows View, due to the lack of the visible Breadcrumbs.  This isn't an issue that I had regularly, but she hit it nearly immediately.  After thinking about it a bit, I figured out why, and why some Audio/Images-centric users of Theater View might not regularly hit the issue.  When you are navigating a standard Audio Genre/Artist/Album view scheme, the Thumbnails contain a lot of "useful" information.  Even when you've drilled down into the Alternative Rock genre, it is easy to intuitively tell where you are by the artists contained within.

This is where I disagree.  For many people it's not always intuitive where you are.  This is particularly true when more than one person uses the system -- some people are not nearly as familiar with genres, artists, and albums as others are.  I, for example, often get "Blues" and "Jazz" mixed up, so have to check where I am and really think about where I want to go.  My wife does not have this problem with "Blues" and "Jazz," but she does with "Rock/Pop" and "Progressive Rock," which are NOT a problem for me.  We both agree on our genre naming, and we both utilize the breadcrumb info on a very regular basis.  It just "feels" right to be able to glance at it at any time.

In other words, my wife and I are audio-centric MC users, and we still constantly use the breadcrumb info.  I think that what you were hitting on was the reason why many audio-centric people HERE don't necessarily feel the need for the "always visible" breadcrumb info, which is because the type of people posting to this forum are likely to be the type of people who are intimately familiar with their audio collection.

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The thumbnails displayed give you a very easy-to-grok visual cue as to where you are.

Again, this is not my experience.

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Furthermore, when you drill down into a particular artist's album, you can tell immediately that you are looking at the albums from that particular artist (via the thumbnails) if you know that artist's music at all.

In a large collection that is being added to by more than one user, it is VERY likely that you will simply not be that familiar with the albums from many of the artists in the collection.  I sometimes like to browse artists and albums that I'm NOT familiar with in my collection, and I find an "always visible" breadcrumb path extremely useful.

Keep in mind another important point, which is the idea of using specialized view schemes and even custom tags.  This is a situation where having the breadcrumb info is EXTREMELY helpful in keeping track of where you are, especially if you were not the person to set up this view scheme, but still find it useful.

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Even in Audio, she occasionally got confused.  She'd be in the Genre view (the default, I haven't changed my Audio views at all except to remove a few that I won't use).  She'd drill into Psychedelic Rock.  Play a few tracks by Pink Floyd (or whatever).  Switch it to Display View to watch G-Force for a while, then switch back to Theater View to pick something different.  It'd remember where she was, and she'd drill back out to the Artist list (but not all the way to the Genres list), go down and arrow down through the list of artists, and then wonder why she couldn't find the Beastie Boys or whatever.  I'd have to remind her that she was in the Psychedelic Rock genre and she needed to go back to find the proper Genre.  Again, if the Breadcrumbs were always visible, this would solve the problem (or at least mitigate it).

This is an excellent example of the type of situation I'm running into as well.  Even if you're familiar with your genres, artist, albums, etc., it's still possible to get momentarily confused about where you are.  When you have an immediately visible point of reference, it instantly knocks your brain back on track.  Having to scroll to the top of the list completely breaks the navigation "flow," making it feel like you're constantly "starting over."

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1) Always show the Secondary Roller, including when Breadcrumbs are visible there, at least by default with the default skin.
2) When in a Particular view, include the name of this view (TV Shows, Movies, Genre, Artist, etc) at the far left side (root) of the Breadcrumbs once you've drilled into a sub-category.  That way, you can always tell that your browsing by Genre or TV Show even when drilled down a few levels.

I agree with both of these.

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3) Change the navigation slightly so that hitting Left Arrow from the file list jumps you to the Secondary Roller (Breadcrumbs usually) instead of the Top Roller.  A second press of the Left Arrow would work identically to the current system, except that it would be obvious (from looking at the Breadcrumbs) where it would take you.  So the Top Roller would be used ONLY for controls, and the Secondary Roller would be used ONLY for navigation.  They'd be clearly separate and easy to understand.

I'm not sure about this one -- it's hard to tell if there are any "gotchas" without trying it.  It also appears that this might require more navigation keystrokes than what I suggested earlier, which was to make the second line non-highlightable whenever it was in "breadcrumb info" mode.  In other words, whenever the second line wasn't being used for sub-menu selections like the "Play All" menu or the view scheme selection, it would display the breadcrumb path, which would never be hidden.  This would mean that you'd continue to use the top line for "back" navigation, but consider the reduction in keystrokes this offers:  You wouldn't need the extra "up" keystroke to get to the top line, or the extra "down" keystroke when wanting to get back to the list.  This seems to clean up the navigation a bit, and helps to alleviate the "up/down dance" that other people have been noting in various circumstances.

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Change number 3 above actually also presents another useful opportunity.  You will no longer need the "Back" option in the Top Roller at all!  Therefore, it would be easy to add a new "third" button to the Top Roller and move some of the commands from under "Play All" over to this new button.  I'd still keep the "top level" view name in the middle (Audio, Video, or Images).  That's nice how it is.  But it'd be easy to move some of the other commands over to a new "Controls" (or "Options" or "Commands") button on the left (where Back is currently).  There's just way too many un-related controls under that button.  I understand that you don't want to add too much complexity to it (good plan).  This way would allow you to keep the Top Roller to a max of three items, but still allow you to break out some of those commands into a separate "set".

I agree that the "Play All" button currently seems mis-named, but I think this could be solved by either renaming "Play All" to "Controls," or just adding a forth button.  There comes a point where eliminating buttons makes things MORE complicated, not less.  Having too FEW buttons often requires extra complexity in order to get achieve the control you need.  There is a happy medium between a "clean" interface and effective, efficient "functionality."

Larry
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