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[Trumpetguy]

I am using a Audiolense room correction filter for music and multichannel (7.1) setup, running in a VST plugin. This filter requires some processing time, and today I am using ffdshow audio decoder to apply a "negative delay" on the audio of -1575ms, because in my case the video processing is less computational intensive than the audio processing. I have found no other way of syncing audio and video than using ffdshow. VideoClock or ReClock obviously do not work as my room correction filter requires an exact and predictable sampling frequency.

With the new Red October function, the audio decoder is auto-configured, and looses my -1575ms offset of the audio stream. Also, with the new .097 build, playing DVD skips manually configured ffdshow audio decoder, which makes playback impossible with my DRC setup. MKV and BluRay works fine, though, but not with Red October.

I would be really happy if there was any way to manually add a delay on the video signal or a negative delay on the audio stream other than using ffdshow. Is there? Or can I request a new feature, e.g. in the Audio DSP plugin?

[Trumpetguy]

*bump*

No one in need for manual offset (sync) between audio and video as a built in function in JRiver? Are everyone bitstreaming to receiver now using receiver DSP?

[wer]

I'm pretty sure there's an option to turn off Red October.  Then you can config your filters manually.

Would that work for you?

[mojave]

Where are you applying the negative delay in ffdshow?

[Trumpetguy]

I'm pretty sure there's an option to turn off Red October.  Then you can config your filters manually.

Would that work for you?

I know, but at least for some builds up to now, custom filters did not work properly. I guess it is about to be fixed, if not already.

[Trumpetguy]

Where are you applying the negative delay in ffdshow?

In the ffdshow audio-properties-output-Audio delay (just below the "connect to->Any filter" dropdown box.) Only place I found to put an negative audio delay. Needed that because I have not found anywhere to delay the video stream.

[Matt]

Coming in build 103 and later:
NEW: Parametric Equalizer can be used to add a configurable delay to any channels.

It's 64-bit, supports decimal millisecond values, and can be applied to any channels, and stacked and ordered with any other parametric effect.

[Trumpetguy]

Coming in build 103 and later:
NEW: Parametric Equalizer can be used to add a configurable delay to any channels.

It's 64-bit, supports decimal millisecond values, and can be applied to any channels, and stacked and ordered with any other parametric effect.

This is exactly why I love MC and do not think twice about upgrading every time I have the opportunity. Thanks a bunch!   

I guess that if I leave parametric equalizer untouched except the delay, the bitstream will will not be altered in any way? By the way, what type of filters are supported in PE? Can it do convolution like http://convolver.sourceforge.net/? If so, I could get rid of the (not longer developed) ConvolverVST plugin.

[Trumpetguy]

To more precise - this is one of many reasons I use MC.

[Trumpetguy]

Coming in build 103 and later:
NEW: Parametric Equalizer can be used to add a configurable delay to any channels.

It's 64-bit, supports decimal millisecond values, and can be applied to any channels, and stacked and ordered with any other parametric effect.

The new delay function works with positive audio delay only. Right now any negative delay is automatically changed to 0 ms.

My need is a negative delay (audio processing is the more CPU demanding). Could that be added, please?

[Matt]

The new delay function works with positive audio delay only. Right now any negative delay is automatically changed to 0 ms.

My need is a negative delay (audio processing is the more CPU demanding). Could that be added, please?

What you have to do is delay the _other_ channels if you want one channel in front of others.

A true negative delay would require a time machine

[Trumpetguy]

What you have to do is delay the _other_ channels if you want one channel in front of others.

A true negative delay would require a time machine

I am really sorry, but I think my request may have been poorly explained in the first post. I was not thinking of a way to delay single channels such as you usually do in receivers or standalone players to adjust for varying distance to the speakers. Of course this is needed also, but in my case that is taken care of elsewhere.

What I am after is some way to delay the video stream (for the time being around 1575 ms, but depending on my audio DSP filter length). This has until now been taken care of by using ffdshow audio decoder to "offset" the entire audio into the future using a negative number in the audio delay (yes, it actually works). The result is actually that ffdshow audio decoder adds a delay on the video stream until audio and video are in sync.

To be specific - I want the possibility to delay the video stream without using the workaround with ffdshow audio decoder.

[Trumpetguy]

Well, I guess I can live with using additional filters to cover special needs, given that known issues RO+additional filters is fixed (such as subtitles not at all working). That is a topic in another thread however.

[Matt]

When using the JRiver audio engine for video (the default), we control the lip-sync / clock.

That means it's technically trivial to offset the audio and video.

However, I'm not sure where an option like this would go or if it would be generally useful to anyone else.

Thoughts?

[mojave]

There are some TV shows, DVD's and probably Blu-rays that were mastered with incorrect lip-sync. This would be helpful for "fixing" those problems. Also, I'm still having a few lip-sync problems using ASIO even though I unchecked "use large hardware buffers" and I lowered buffering to 0.02 seconds.

I think it should be a tag that is remembered for files. It should also be part of the GUI for Display View so it can be accessed with a down arrow/button and changed with left/right arrows/buttons. That is similar to how I have accessed it on other media players. If one needs it for all files, he can just tag all files with the appropriate delay.

[Trumpetguy]

Matt, I admit it may be a very special need. I also see that ReClock or MC VideoClock does this very well. The only thing is that the audio is resampled, and in my system that is no good, as my DSP filter needs to know the sample rate in advance, it needs to be fixed and it should be multiples of 44.1 or 48kHz. As this function already is implemented in ffdshow I would assume there are more weirdos out there with the same need, though...

[fitbrit]

Matt, as video is my principal use for MC, I must say that I would love this feature too. AC3filter used to have it built in and it was a godsend... for those times when a (downloaded or recompressed) video and audio sync was mastered poorly. This happens less and less nowadays, but it's a real pain when it does. It'd be great to have the ability to fix this within MC. Of course this means all audio channels delay or hasten at the same time compared to audio.

[audunth]

I also use ffdshow's feature of delaying the video (negative delay on the audio) to fix poorly muxed files with delayed audio. To use it automatically I can set up a preset in ffdshow for each file, but it would be easier if it was a part of MC and could be tagged for each file.

In ffdshow you can even configure a delay that changes (steadily) throughout the file. I have a file that starts in sync, but is more and more out of syng as the video goes on, and in ffdshow you set the delay at the start and end of the file and it will automatically change the delay throughout the video. I guess this is an odd case, though, and not very necessary for the MC feature, unless it's easy to implement.

[fitbrit]

I also use ffdshow's feature of delaying the video (negative delay on the audio) to fix poorly muxed files with delayed audio. To use it automatically I can set up a preset in ffdshow for each file, but it would be easier if it was a part of MC and could be tagged for each file.

In ffdshow you can even configure a delay that changes (steadily) throughout the file. I have a file that starts in sync, but is more and more out of syng as the video goes on, and in ffdshow you set the delay at the start and end of the file and it will automatically change the delay throughout the video. I guess this is an odd case, though, and not very necessary for the MC feature, unless it's easy to implement.

Cool, I didn't know one could do that in ffdshow. I could only ever find audio delay, never video delay or "audio hasten" in AC3Filter terms.

[Trumpetguy]

Wow, didn't know about the increasing delay function. Never had any use for it either, but still! 
I thought an increased out-of -sync happened in h.264 rop of "9" and also my mkv version of the last Terminator movie. Turned out to be a too weak GPU...

[audunth]

Cool, I didn't know one could do that in ffdshow. I could only ever find audio delay, never video delay or "audio hasten" in AC3Filter terms.

It's only got an audio delay setting, but if you set it to a negative value, it delays the video instead.

[Trumpetguy]

It's only got an audio delay setting, but if you set it to a negative value, it delays the video instead.

Exactly the function that would be nice to have in MC as a playback option directly, and the reason why I started this thread.

[Trumpetguy]

As RO (with or without additional filters) really seems to be the choice of a new generation (including myself), my original request in this thread becomes highly relevant: Is it possible to include a function that can delay the video stream within MC? In my naive world I cannot see that delaying one media stream should be more difficult than the other? I know most systems require more processing times for the video than for the audio stream, but there are - like mine - setups where the opposite is the case.

And now blu-ray and decoding of DTS-HD with LAV splitter is possible, I really would like to get rid of ffdshow audio decoder as it messes up decoding of almost everything else than flac in the new RO regime in MC.

There are at least two, maybe even three others in this thread that find this useful 

[Trumpetguy]

And with build .125 the video/audio delay function has been added. You in the MC team are great! Who other software developers would have a response time less than a month on a feature request made by a handful of people? And I realize you have spent quite some effort developing RO lately also...
Thanks!

[jarbe]

Hi Trumpetguy,

I use Audiolense myself, and am in need of video-delay function.
Does the added function in .0125 work for you?

In my case it results in a lot of stuttering when I add negative delay. The more negative delay, the more stuttering.

By the way, how do you know how many milliseconds of delay you need?

Regards

[JimH]

Set the buffer size down under Audio settings.  Try .10, for example.

[mojave]

Is there a way to adjust on the fly when watching content that doesn't seem to be mastered correctly? Another program I used had the < > keys for adjusting the video/audio delay. I hate adding it to the Display View GUI unless the items listed can be configured by the user. Another suggestion is to allow one to adjust on a per item basis and have the adjustment saved in a tag. I think this is too cumbersome, though. I would rather be able to adjust during live viewing.

[Trumpetguy]

Hi Trumpetguy,

I use Audiolense myself, and am in need of video-delay function.
Does the added function in .0125 work for you?

In my case it results in a lot of stuttering when I add negative delay. The more negative delay, the more stuttering.

By the way, how do you know how many milliseconds of delay you need?

Regards

It works fine for .mkv with flac audio tracks (tested on three or four movies yesterday). Movie needs a stop/start cycle if you change the time shift value.

I got A LOT of stuttering on both audio and video when trying to play back a DVD disc. Tested with RO and RO HQ. I do not think this has to do with A/V sync, as it was there if I set delay to 0 as well. DVD ripped to mkv with .dts audio works fine also. I think stuttering in my case is related to reading from my optical drive.

I found the delay value by trial and error. Find a video that plays back perfectly, and with a lot of distinct audio transients (dialog works best, as sync on audio effects often are slightly off in many movies - try syncing horses galloping for instance...). My audiolense filter is 131072 taps, which gives a fixed offset for all playback. Other filter lengths and possibly the number of partitions in ConvolverVST will give other delays, but still fixed.

[Trumpetguy]

Is there a way to adjust on the fly when watching content that doesn't seem to be mastered correctly? Another program I used had the < > keys for adjusting the video/audio delay. I hate adding it to the Display View GUI unless the items listed can be configured by the user. Another suggestion is to allow one to adjust on a per item basis and have the adjustment saved in a tag. I think this is too cumbersome, though. I would rather be able to adjust during live viewing.

With only one test as experience: I needed to stop/start playback to get correct changes to the delay. Simply changing delay while movie was playing caused some stutter but did not seem to change delay according to number change.

On-the-fly change on delay using defined keys would be great though, since it will ease the process of getting the value right. And I also see the point about varying sync in the source caused by bad mastering. Haven't seen any of those myself, though.

[jarbe]

I do not know what causes the stuttering in my case. Adjusting the buffering doesn't have any impact.
-400ms works fine, -500ms has a little stuttering, anything beyond -500ms has serious stuttering.
I checked the CPU loading. It was around 50%, so that is not the problem..

[Trumpetguy]

I do not know what causes the stuttering in my case. Adjusting the buffering doesn't have any impact.
-400ms works fine, -500ms has a little stuttering, anything beyond -500ms has serious stuttering.
I checked the CPU loading. It was around 50%, so that is not the problem..

FYI, my filter (131072 taps) requires a 1575ms audio delay. How are you doing this - do you set the delay while a movie is playing? I found that this caused some serious stuttering for a while. Setting the value first and then start playback worked perfectly.

[jarbe]

My filter has 131220 taps.

I stop the playback while adjusting the delay.
On my desktop PC, (on-board audio, no audiolense or impulse-file) the same thing happens.
Running version 0.126

[Trumpetguy]

Have you tried on material which does not require video deinterlacing, e.g. progressive hd material? I had some issues before with stuttering caused by cycle eating yadif deinterlacer used by Red October, CPU loads well above 50% but not near peaking at 100%. Reducing CPU load by use of LAV CUVID solved this.

Just guessing.

[jarbe]

Thanks for the advice! I havn't tried any HD material. LAV CUVID is a plugin that can be used in JRiver?
My PC is not intended for playing HD. It is only a mini-ITX board with an Intel Atom 1.6Ghz processor.
I plan to play music DVDs only.

[Trumpetguy]

DVD playback with upscaling and deinterlacing seems to require more from my computer than hd playback. At least - I have far less problems with hd material. May be a CPU and/or GPU issue.

Your computer is not very powerful. I would at least consider CPU as a potential bottleneck. If you run benchmark in MC, what do you get? I have a lo-end computer ending at around 1300.

LAV CUVID is a low offloading media decoder for nVidia video cards.

[jarbe]

Benchmark gives me 401.

The video runs smoothly, no problem. It is the sound that stutters, but only when I use the new delay function.
I find it strange that a fixed delay should be very demanding in terms of CPU...

[glynor]

DVD playback with upscaling and deinterlacing seems to require more from my computer than hd playback. At least - I have far less problems with hd material. May be a CPU and/or GPU issue.

As well it should.

Upscaling and deinterlacing is hard.  It is honestly amazing that it can happen in real time at all.

[Matt]

A large audio latency (from a large audio buffering setting or a large negative A/V correction setting) can cause stuttering.  Directshow doesn't like to deliver audio that's too far ahead of the video it's delivering to the video renderer.  This problem only seems to apply to some video types like DVD.

We're looking for a way around this.

[Trumpetguy]

Do you use VideoClock? Just for curiosity, you should try not to and see if stuttering disappears.
I can only imagine that a combination of real time resampling and delay can cause some funny artefacts. And maybe increase CPU load?

MC developers - is this combination something that is straight forward and/or being take care of?

[jarbe]

Trumpetguy, no I do not use VideoClock.
Thanks anyway Seems like Matt is on the case!

[Matt]

The Microsoft DVD Navigator (which is the only navigator really used), simply won't provide audio too far ahead of video.

If you need a large negative audio offset, make the Options > Audio > Output mode settings... buffer as small as possible.  With ASIO or WASAPI Event Style, you could use 0.10 seconds.  This will help since a large buffer also requires audio ahead of video.

[jarbe]

Thanks for looking into it Matt!

If it is supposed do help with buffer 0.10 seconds, then there has to be a problem no.2 somewhere.
Trumpetguy, you have no problems with DVD playback? large negative delay works just fine? even when you do not use LAV CUVID?

[fitbrit]

Benchmark gives me 401.

The video runs smoothly, no problem. It is the sound that stutters, but only when I use the new delay function.
I find it strange that a fixed delay should be very demanding in terms of CPU...

Hmmm, that seems rather slow to me. My dual core i3 scores around 2000+ and my quad core i5 closer to 2500; neither is overclocked.

[jarbe]

401 is quite slow. It is a mini-itx board with an Intel Atom N270 processor (single core 1.6GHz).  1GB of RAM, onboard graphics.
I chose it because it was adequate for audio, it is compact and fanless. But then I found that it was capable of running DVD video as well, and then I wanted to rip my music DVDs too. And so I did, after purchasing CloneDVD and AnyDVD. But unfortunately this was a lot of wasted work and money Not very interessting when the audio lags the video by 1.5 seconds!

My computer is slow, but I don't think it is too slow.  Matt suggests that Microsoft DVD Navigator is the limitation when it comes to negative delay.
But then others should experience the same problem?

[Trumpetguy]

Thanks for looking into it Matt!

If it is supposed do help with buffer 0.10 seconds, then there has to be a problem no.2 somewhere.
Trumpetguy, you have no problems with DVD playback? large negative delay works just fine? even when you do not use LAV CUVID?

I usually rip everything to mkv and flac, and haven't noticed any problems. I do have problems with sluggish DVD playback, as it turns out. I will test to see if this has anything to do with the audio delay combined with different sets of splitters/decoders/renderers.

[BradC]

I would like to add that I am another using acourate and require large video delays.

i will try the latest build asap.

It's good to see te speed of progress lately.

Now all I need is for plogue bidule to work in jriver!

[Trumpetguy]

[OT]
Are you at all able to get Plogue Bidule working? It is beyond my brain capacity and then some...
If it is the convolution you are after, you can try Convolver (I use ConvolverVST). Not in development, but working.

Anyway, it would be interesting to look at bidule again, as a VST host for all audio clients (JRiver and Spotify in particular). Do you know of any manual for dummies that could guide me step by step in getting the audio track from a client, into Bidule, through the VST plugin (using ASIO, 2ch and 8ch), and out to my soundcard?
[/OT]

[Trumpetguy]

Thanks for looking into it Matt!

If it is supposed do help with buffer 0.10 seconds, then there has to be a problem no.2 somewhere.
Trumpetguy, you have no problems with DVD playback? large negative delay works just fine? even when you do not use LAV CUVID?

Yes, a test confirms I have the same problem. With DVD playback settings all in Automatic (RO HQ) and 0 time delay, everything's fine. Also if I add the DSPs I usually use. Increasing the time delay to -100ms and audio stutters, video seems fine. At -500ms the audio is almost gone, and at -1570ms there is no audio at all for a long time. After about 30 secs both audio comes in and both audio and video stutters. I tried changing renderer to madVR, but that was not accepted by MC. It is locked to Microsoft video decoder too.

Playing a ripped dvd (mkv with original AC3 audio), no problem with delay everything plays back just fine.

[BradC]

Re Plogue Bidule, I am presently using Console (very similar to Plogue Bidule, but no longer in development) external to jriver.
I am using an RME fireface, and this allows the audio channels to be looped back, so that they can be input into Console.
I am using Console to apply room correction, bass management and route signals for a second sub (and eventually for active speakers - with crossovers from acourate)

This limitation with this is that it is a fixed sample rate and there is no video delay, so I can't use linear phase filters.

With a VST host within jriver, I could do all this and overcome the above limitations.
Console functions within jriver, but doesn't remember presets under windows 7.
Plogue Bidule crashes jriver! I have posted on the Plogue forum, and the developer says that he will look into it sometime, but there is a bug in jriver in VST handling.

For your problem, either get the loopback working (what soundcard are you using), or see if you can play an audio file within plogue bidule. Or maybe use plogue within a DAW.

[jarbe]

Thanks Trumpetguy,

Maybe the problem is the format of my DVD rip. Maybe mkv will solve the problem.
I am a newbie to DVD-ripping. Ripped all my DVDs to ivo-files....