INTERACT FORUM

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: Tagging classical music.  (Read 54535 times)

robgil

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
Tagging classical music.
« on: January 26, 2014, 05:06:55 am »

I know this has been covered before, and I know that JR can easily cope.
I'm going to load mine up to JR's library tonight.

From what I gather it goes like this,

Artist = Composer (Vivaldi)
album/artist = Performer
Album = album title (The Four Seasons)
Genre = Boroque

Now where do I tag things like sub catagories such as chambre music or Opera?

Basically I'd like to go ''Genre''  to ''Composer'' to ''Chambre music'' and then choose an album from there.

How do you guys tag Arts music?

Edit - I could change ''Genre'' to Art music then try and set the ''period'' some other way I suppose.
Logged

AndyU

  • Galactic Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 363
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2014, 08:32:05 am »

I know this has been covered before, and I know that JR can easily cope.
I'm going to load mine up to JR's library tonight.

From what I gather it goes like this,

Artist = Composer (Vivaldi)
album/artist = Performer
Album = album title (The Four Seasons)
Genre = Boroque

Now where do I tag things like sub catagories such as chambre music or Opera?

Basically I'd like to go ''Genre''  to ''Composer'' to ''Chambre music'' and then choose an album from there.

How do you guys tag Arts music?

Edit - I could change ''Genre'' to Art music then try and set the ''period'' some other way I suppose.

Hi there. MC is superb for tagging classical music ime. Would strongly suggest you do not use the Artist or Album Artist tag for Composer - use the Composer tag, and possibly also the ComposerSort tag. That's what tags are for. Then you might define a top level view that is just classical music (Genre='Classical') with the next level Composer or Composer Sort. If you want a sub-genre then either invent your own tag - "Sub-Genre" say - or use an existing tag - "Style" possibly.

If in your general "Genres" view you want Classical to break down by Composer but all the other Genres to break down by AlbumArtist, this can also be done with a little smarty-pants programming, but I found it simpler to just have a view just for Classical, and then to exclude Classical from other views. Don't forget you can also populate tags like "Conductor", "Soloists" etc.

I also found it useful to change the names of classical cds to include the Composer and main performers - eg Beethoven: Symphony 5 (Gardiner). Nothing stopping you splitting up a cd with more than one work on it into two separate "Works" and forgetting about the cd as a unit, except for recitals.

There aren't really any 'answers' for classical music - everyone has their own needs and own way of viewing things. But MC, because of it's custom tagging and custom view features will delivery pretty much any result you can imagine, so just play around till you're happy.
Logged

AndrewFG

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3392
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2014, 10:56:16 am »

^
 
I fully support everything that AndyU said. But just want to add something that he forgot to mention: namely that the Artist tag is actually allowed to contain more than one name (separated by a semicolon and a space) whereas the AlbumArtist may only contain a single name.

So for example if you have (say) a CD of Beethoven sonatas played by YoYo Ma you could put "YoYo Ma" in AlbumArtist, "Ludwig van Beethoven" in Composer, "Chicago Symphony Orchestra; James Levine; YoYo Ma" in Artist and the album name in Album...
Logged
Author of Whitebear Digital Media Renderer Analyser - http://www.whitebear.ch/dmra.htm
Author of Whitebear - http://www.whitebear.ch/mediaserver.htm

robgil

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2014, 11:50:19 am »

Thanks guys , I'll have a play with it and see if I can sort it.
Logged

Listener

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1084
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2014, 12:03:35 pm »

You got good advice from Andy and Andrew.  I strongly recommend that you not use Artist and Album artist as you described.  Those tags are used in views that MC supplies in ways that will cause trouble for you.

Some basic ideas about using MC for classical music:

- MC has a number of use tags already defined in the database including Composer and Conductor.

- You can define additional tags and add them to the database.  You want a tag for period?  Add it to the database.

- When you rip CDs or download files, you will probably have to edit the tags to get the information where you want it and formatted as you want it.  If you use custom tags, you'll have to fill them out. MC provides powerful editing tools to make the work quicker and less error prone.

- You can use any standard tags and the tags you have defined to browse and select music.

- You can define views that let you navigate as you want to.

- MC has rich functionality.  If the way to accomplish something isn't immediately obvious, you'll benefit from time spent trying to learn.  Just surfing the menus and dialogs to see what commands and options are available can expand your horizons.

Experiment with ripping and tagging a small number of CDs to learn what you want to do and what's possible in JRiver MC. Define a view or two for classical music

Here is a view that I use for general classical music viewing:



I use Genre to select an appropriate view (Broadway, classical, classical - small works, Pop, Jazz, Folk, Rock.)  The views listed in the tree structure on the left select music of one or a few genres to be shown.

I use Sub_genre to narrow the list of works by a prolific composer like Haydn or Mozart.  Version identifies one of several recordings of the same work by the same artists.

The Artist tag contains performer information. I make a single entry with the soloist name, then the conductor and then the orchestra.  Underscores separate each of those parts of the tag.  I chose not to make separate values for soloist, conductor and orchestra.  Keeping lists of tag values to a manageable size makes using MC more pleasant and more successful.

I've provided info on how I use MC to get you started thinking.  Past threads have discussed using tags with several people describing how they use MC for classical music.

MC was the best choice for classical music 7 years ago when I picked it and it remains the best choice.

Bill
Logged

MrC

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 10462
  • Your life is short. Give me your money.
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2014, 01:00:03 pm »

... the AlbumArtist may only contain a single name.

To be pedantic, Album Artist is a string value, and like all string values, doesn't apply any special meaning to semicolon.  So Album Artist can have any number of items separated by any arbitrary separators; its just that your views will have to be modified to split the values, and Album Artist in all other aspects will be treated like any other string.

But it is probably best to set Album Artist to a single value, unless you are very clear about how it works internally and externally.
Logged
The opinions I express represent my own folly.

robgil

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2014, 02:20:04 pm »

Thanks guys, looks like I've got some more tagging to do. :)
Logged

MikeO

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 798
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2014, 11:38:09 pm »

Hi

Good advice from all , I do pretty much the same.

Just a word on filing , initially I set up folders for Composer etc then a sub folder for each CD. I soon found that compilations , recitals etc screwed that up so I changed to a Folder per Artist which works much better, especially using the composer tag .


For Tags , One extra I added was a pair of Tags "Box Set" and "Disc Name" so I could set up a view specifically for big box sets.

Doing this I have a view and a Theatre View for box sets , as I select a set I see the individual discs in a view and its a bit like picking a physical CD from a box.

With really Big Boxes like Haydn Symphonies it pays dividends.

I toyed with Work Name so I could fins "All Beethoven 5th" quickly but its a load of work , maybe I'll undertake some time

MIke
Logged

Listener

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1084
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2014, 12:17:20 am »

As I stated in a previous post, I've used JRiver for ripping CDs after careful tests of EAC, dBpoweramp and JRiver. For a long time, I stored files in folders by Composer.  More recently, I type a [Rip_to_folder] value which specifies a folder name.  A bit more work but it keeps all the files, the secure ripping log file and cover art together for both classical and popular music CDs. If you use tags to browse and search in JRiver, the folder and file names are a belt-and-suspenders backup mechanism.

I store all CDs from a set in one folder now.

More than one way to skin a cat in MC.  Find something that you know will meet your needs and go with it.
Logged

astromo

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 2251
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2014, 03:14:38 am »

If you haven't noticed, I'm a Wiki fan. So, for fun let's see what it can offer up.

Going to the top of this discussion board:
MC Wiki - FAQ (Read First)
... that directs here:
MC Wiki FAQs
Check out:
Classical Music
Have a look at where that gets you and see what's been said before  (dates back to 2008). Probably some relevant stuff. At least it will give you another way to skin the cat.
Logged
MC33, Win10 x64, HD-Plex H5 Gen2 Case, HD-Plex 400W Hi-Fi DC-ATX / AC-DC PSU, Gigabyte Z370 ULTRA Gaming 2.0 MoBo, Intel Core i7 8700 CPU, 4x8GB GSkill DDR4 RAM, Schiit Modi Multibit DAC, Freya Pre, Nelson Pass Aleph J DIY Clone, Ascension Timberwolf 8893BSRTL Speakers, BJC 5T00UP cables, DVB-T Tuner HDHR5-4DT

Listener

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1084
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2014, 05:20:40 am »

If you haven't noticed, I'm a Wiki fan. So, for fun let's see what it can offer up.

Going to the top of this discussion board:
MC Wiki - FAQ (Read First)
... that directs here:
MC Wiki FAQs
Check out:
Classical Music
Have a look at where that gets you and see what's been said before  (dates back to 2008). Probably some relevant stuff. At least it will give you another way to skin the cat.

And if you search for "Classical" in the Wiki, you will find more and different info. 
Logged

Mike48

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 214
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2014, 12:15:01 am »

A lot of good material has been posted. I will add that I use dBpoweramp for ripping classical music. That may be a controversial recommendation, as MC does a great job, but dBpa (paid version) lets you choose tagging info from FIVE databases, all presented so that you can mix and match. I find that saves on manual entry considerably, and if you have a large library, that can be significant.

I've added a "Subgenre" tag for things like "opera", "string quartet", and "symphony", and I use the "Instrument" tag to record the instrument for solo works or concertos.
Logged

Vincent Kars

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1154
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2014, 04:30:01 am »

Quote
I toyed with Work Name so I could fins "All Beethoven 5th" quickly but its a load of work , maybe I'll undertake some time

Indeed it is.
I have custom tags for Opus/catalog, Composition and Movement.
If you are lucky you can use a couple of functions to parse the tags but it remains a terrible job.

I use the MusiCHI tagger.
It has a database with a lot of composers and compositions by the major ones.
It offers functions like extracting opus/catalog from the tags.
For tagging classical  it is a real time saver.
http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/Players/MusiCHI.htm

Logged

AndyU

  • Galactic Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 363
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2014, 03:38:25 pm »



I toyed with Work Name so I could fins "All Beethoven 5th" quickly but its a load of work , maybe I'll undertake some time

MIke

I find the fuzzy search in MC pretty good for such things - typing "Bee Sym 5" into the search box will get you usefully close
Logged

Mike48

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 214
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2014, 08:51:04 pm »

I find the fuzzy search in MC pretty good for such things - typing "Bee Sym 5" into the search box will get you usefully close

Indeed.  Another approach is using a Panes View with columns for Genre, Subgenre, and Composer.  You can quickly find Classical, Symphony, Beethoven, which gives you a pretty small picklist, unless you have many versions of each symphony.

Now for Haydn's 104(?) symphonies, I'd want something more specific!

BTW, I found it too much trouble to set up a Work field, myself, and I've never missed it.
Logged

Ferdi

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 195
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2014, 10:19:38 pm »

One thing to consider and that hasn't been mentioned here is: how will you eventually access the library? Are the MC library view accessible to you when you play music? For me, they are mostly not.

I play music mostly via iPod Classic (which doesn't even know the field 'album artist', only 'artist'), and at home sometimes through the excellent app for iOS, JRemote.
To select from my classical music, first I go to Genre = Classical. From there on, it's only 'Artist' (iPod) or 'Album Artist' (JRemote).

The correct 'composer' field doesn't work for me: if I navigate on iPod or JRemote first via 'Composer', I get a list of ALL composer, that is, across all my music/genres.

I therefore put the composer's name into the artist and (!) album artist field, even if it's 'wrong'.
If appropriate, I add additional info to the 'album name'. E.g, soloist, conductor, orchestra, are added to 'Brandenburger Konzerte'. Note, I also maintain all that information in the 'correct' fields that come out-of-the-box with MC.

Now, based on this thread, i might start adding conductor, soloist, orchestra etc. to the artist field, it will be interesting to see how this shows up on iPod Classic then (JRemote only shows AlbumArtist).


If the world was as (near) perfect as MC, all would be easy ;)  But for now, I go with the lowest common denominator, which unfortunately is set by iOS devices.

Should my logic be wrong, i'd be happy to be told better!
Logged

AndyU

  • Galactic Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 363
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2014, 10:11:07 am »


I play music mostly via iPod Classic (which doesn't even know the field 'album artist', only 'artist'), and at home sometimes through the excellent app for iOS, JRemote.
To select from my classical music, first I go to Genre = Classical. From there on, it's only 'Artist' (iPod) or 'Album Artist' (JRemote).

The correct 'composer' field doesn't work for me: if I navigate on iPod or JRemote first via 'Composer', I get a list of ALL composer, that is, across all my music/genres.

Should my logic be wrong, i'd be happy to be told better!

Here's (roughly) how to get the composer view for classical music you want to appear in JRemote.

You need to set up a new view that JRemote can see.

Tools > Options > Media Network > ... Customize view for Gizmo and WebGizmo
Up should come the "Customize Views" box.

Highlight "Audio" Click Add > New Library Item
Change the Name from "New Library Item" to "Classical" (or whatever you fancy)

There's a box "Show Categories in This Order" next to which is another "Add" button.
Click that "Add" button, and add "Composer" then Add again "Album" (you can keep adding if you want, but best keep it simple to start)

Now click the "Set Rules for File Display" box, and in that pop up add a rule "Genre"  "is all"  "Classical"

That should be you. You probably need to go in and out of MC and JRemote. When you go back into JRemote you should have a new view called "Classical" that lists classical albums by Composer the Album.

You can obviously refine all this as much as you want - I use the first bit of the ComposerSort field rather than Composer, so I just have Bach, Beethoven etc..

But whatever you do,  leave "Artist" as "Artist", otherwise it looks like you have Beethoven playing his own Piano Concertos, which would be very nice but alas is not possible!

Please get back to me if you need any more hints.

Logged

David R. Williams

  • Recent member
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2014, 01:05:39 pm »

I've been at this tagging issue since 2006 when I first bought an iPod video for experimenting with classical music on the go.

I never much took to listening to classical via in-ear phones, but with the purchase of a car with a rudimentary ipod interface in 2007, I ripped my entire classical collection for use in the car, and now use Media Centre as my music "server" for home listening.

Some of the unique aspects of classical that I found needed to be addressed were:

1.  in a large classical collection, it's likely that there will be multiple versions of the same work by different conductors/orchestras/artists
2.  it's possible that there will be multiple versions of the same work by the same artist/conductor
3.  each album for each artist needs to be treated as a separate "work", otherwise simply labeling all Beethoven's 3rd Symphonies as such will end up with multiple artists' versions all being merged together under one work
4.  it's preferable for most cd's or downloads that contain different works (Beethoven 5th and 7th symphonies) to be separated into separate "albums" so that each can be located separately when desired.
5.  the use of a single genre "Classical" doesn't cut it, - classical needs to be tagged with sub-genres set up that enable separation of the works into logical groupings (doesn't matter what they are, as long as they work for the user doing the tagging).

Here's what I've developed over time that works very well for me...

Genre:

I've ended up evolving to a number of different sub-genres as follows:

Classical - Orchestral (everything with an orchestra that isn't a concerto, choral or music drama)
Classical - Concerto
Classical - Piano (solo piano)
Classical - Violin (solo violin)
Classical - Cello (solo cello)
Classical - Chamber (everything that's chamber except for solo piano, solo violin and solo cello)
Classical - Vocal
Classical - Choral
Classical - Music Drama (my Wagner is showing)


Album Name:

Each cd is ripped, or download processed, so that each major work is then separately labelled with the appropriate composer, work name, and artist in the album name to allow the work to be generally identified from the "album name" value, for instance:

Album:  "Bach: Sonata #2 in A minor BWV 1003 (Ibragimova)"

....or

Album:  "Mozart: Symphony #35 in D, K.385 "Haffner" (Mackerras SCO)" and Album:  "Mozart: Symphony #35 in D, K.385 "Haffner" (Mackerras PCO)"

....to distinguish two separate recordings of the same composer's work by the same conductor.

Album:  "Bach: Sonata #2 in A minor BWV 1003 (Ibragimova)"  (for a work where there are multiple different albums by the same conductor)


Artist:

I tag artists by last name so that they're alphabetical:

Artist:  "Abbado: Wiener Philharmoniker" (for an orchestral work),

Artist: "Fischer (Julia), Sitkovetsky: Academy of St. Martin in the Fields" (for a concerto, to identify both soloist and conductor),

Artist: "Ibragimova, Alina" (for a solo artist), or

Artist: "Ashkenazy, Perlman & Harrell" (for an un-named trio of artists)


Composer:

As with artists, I prefer to tag composers on a last name, first name basis for ease of searching:

Composer:  "Bach, Johann Sebastian"


Track Name:

With the hierarchy of Genre - Composer - Artist - Work by artist, I've been able to limit the per-track tags within each album to only that which is required describe the particular element of the work:

Name:  "Marcia funebre: Adagio assai"    (as the third movement of "Classical - Orchestral", "Beethoven, Ludwig van", "Giulini: Los Angeles Philharmonic Orchestra", "Beethoven: Symphony #3 in E-flat, Op.55 (Giulini)")

Track Numbering

To make this work, it's very important that the track numbering (and disc numbering, for ripped works longer than 1-disc) is correct sequence.


Remaining "Issues"


The biggest problem I find with classical isn't finding the music quickly once it's tagged properly, it's the scarce commodity of the number of characters available to display on the playback device (other than a computer) on car displays, JRemote and Gizmo.  

The very limited space available for displaying these values is a big problem for classical music where much more information is required to correctly separate and identify each album and track name than for less tag-data-intensive music, and one reason why using Gizmo in its current form is difficult without having a good memory for the album artwork associated with each album.  Even JRemote is somewhat limiting, which is why further solutions are required to enable Gizmo and JRemote to more fully display long tag values for searching and playing.

Track data from metadata download sites is an absolute mess - inconsistent, inaccurate, spelling errors, incorrect capitalization, you name it, it's a disaster.  Want consistency amongst your database - there's only one solution...develop a scheme and process, stick to it and do the tagging yourself.  Some classical download companies do get this right - Hyperion, Channel Classics and a few others do a good job, but others like Universal's classical store at DeutscheGrammophon.com are downright useless and require full re-tagging of everything with each download.


Logged

Listener

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1084
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2014, 02:07:27 pm »

I've been at this tagging issue since 2006 when I first bought an iPod video for experimenting with classical music on the go.


Lots of good observations in your post.

I ripped my CD collection (60-70% classical music) in 2006 and used JRiver MC  for playback.  I later put a subset of the collection on an 80 GB iPod for use on long trips in our cars. 

I made a separate MC library with some differences:

- only one or two performances of each work.

- MP3 music files rather than Flac

- all movements of a work are combined into a single file.

- tags are used somewhat differently.


Genre Tag = Classical, Jazz, Pop (Songs), Rock,...
Composer Tag = composer (last name only in most cases.)
Album Tag = Work Name (Symphony No. 9)
Artist tag = performers (Fleisher_Szell_Cleveland Orchestra)
(Track) name Tag = Composer - Work Name - perfomer (shortened)

I usually select the Composer item in the iPod top level menu.  This gives me a useful sequence of selection steps

     Composer, then Work, and then if necessary the Track name tag.

Since the iPod doesn't provide a step to select the artist in this sequence, I can select a particular performance using the Track name tag.

JRiver doesn't provide a command to join several music files.  I use Foobar2000 for that purpose.

This works well enough for my limited use of an iPod with a static library.  If you swap music files in and out of the iPod frequently, you might not find this approach to be useful.

Reality check: One of our cars has an Aux input and an iPod USB connector.  If you connect via the Aux connector with a separate connector to power the iPod, you get to use the iPod interface.  If you use the iPod USB connector, the car radio supplies the UI.  The radio has a truly awful UI but it is more convenient and provides somewhat better sound.

In practice, I use a 64 GB USB thumb drive in the car more often than I use the iPod.  I just navigate to a folder and select random play.

Logged

Ferdi

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 195
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2014, 12:26:53 am »

Here's (roughly) how to get the composer view for classical music you want to appear in JRemote.

Thanks AndyU. I don't know why I am still surprised that MC has a solution for everything, and even better, no matter what you'll find it in this forum! Truly amazing.
I wish the JRiver guys would build a mobile player, a proper replacement for the iDevices. The available alternatives all have very small capacity, and cost an arm and a leg.
Maybe a kickstarter project?

Also, I love this discussion, and how there's so many ways classical music is dealt with.
Logged

krmasson

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2014, 06:54:34 am »

Speaking about classical music, when will Gizmo and JRemote eventually be able to display composer name and track number ? When listening to classical music, specially when the album holds pieces from different composers, it is really frustrating not being able to see the composer's name.

By contrast, MC let you perfectly tune the "normal" view (on the PC itself), and that just  makes it more frustrating not to able to tune the Gizmo or JRemote views.
Logged

AndyU

  • Galactic Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 363
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2014, 05:16:57 pm »

Speaking about classical music, when will Gizmo and JRemote eventually be able to display composer name and track number ? When listening to classical music, specially when the album holds pieces from different composers, it is really frustrating not being able to see the composer's name.

By contrast, MC let you perfectly tune the "normal" view (on the PC itself), and that just  makes it more frustrating not to able to tune the Gizmo or JRemote views.

Well the "tag" button in JRemote will show all the tags for each track, so you can see the composer for each track, though you can only see the tags for one track at a time.  I actually don't find it too much of an issue for classical music in practice. I have a specific JRemote view for classical which breaks down by composer (or artist for a recital) and  I have tended to split CDs by two composers into separate "CDs", so the composer is obvious, and I don't have many recital type cds.
Logged

Frobozz

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 641
  • There is a small mailbox here.
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2014, 12:27:12 am »

Speaking about classical music, when will Gizmo and JRemote eventually be able to display composer name and track number ? When listening to classical music, specially when the album holds pieces from different composers, it is really frustrating not being able to see the composer's name.

By contrast, MC let you perfectly tune the "normal" view (on the PC itself), and that just  makes it more frustrating not to able to tune the Gizmo or JRemote views.

One way to address that is to put the composer in the Artist field.
That solution is a hack, but very effective.  And also very necessary given how many devices and players handle classical.
Not only effective with Gizmo on Android, but also with many portable players, many car audio players, many other digital audio players.  Most players do not have special views for classical that display or make use of the Composer field.  So the way around that is to put the composer in the Artist field.

I generally follow the MusicBrainz Classical Style Guide for tagging classical music.  The style guide recommends putting the composer in the Artist field for each track.  You still put the composer in the Composer field, but also add the composer to the Artist field.  The artist field is just the composer, no other entries for performers, soloists, conductor, etc.
Logged

krmasson

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2014, 06:57:31 am »

[...]  I have tended to split CDs by two composers into separate "CDs", so the composer is obvious, and I don't have many recital type cds.
This can work when there are no more than two or three composers on the CD, but not when the CD is a compilation with 15 different composers.
And, when a given piece (concerto, sonata...) is split into three or four tracks, it would be convenient to have access to the track number.
Logged

krmasson

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2014, 07:03:20 am »

One way to address that is to put the composer in the Artist field.

I do not really feel really to re-tag my 10000+ tracks, even on an automated way... What I find frustrating is that I was able to tune the "normal" (on the PC) display to perfectly suit my needs, but JRemote / Gizmo let you choose only between 3 or 4 different fields.
Logged

Vincent Kars

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1154
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2014, 07:53:46 am »

I generally follow the MusicBrainz Classical Style Guide for tagging classical music.  The style guide recommends putting the composer in the Artist field for each track

This a common work-around simply because almost all media players are designed with pop music in mind.
However, things are improving. Today many media players do support tags like composer, orchestra, soloist, etc.
As they are “standard” tags, I do think Gizmo should support them as well.

I “solved” it by using a UPnPlay on my smartphone, best interface for classical I have found op to day.
Even long titles (common in classical) are perfectly readable.
There is some room for improvement for Gizmo in this area as well.
http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/Android/MediaPlayers/UpnPlay.htm

Logged

AndyU

  • Galactic Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 363
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2014, 08:18:28 am »

This can work when there are no more than two or three composers on the CD, but not when the CD is a compilation with 15 different composers.
Such cds are typically recitals or excerpts. There is a compilation tag that is useful to discriminate these. Recitals type compilations I treat separately, and organize under the artist. Comilations of excerpts are best treated on an adhoc basis. If they are of whole works, then separate them out, otherwise treat the whole set as a compilation. It is up to you  whether your Composer view shows these tracks under composer or not. MC/JRemote can be configured to handle any view that you want. The only thing they can't do is decide what you want in the first place! I find it convenient to make Recital Albums come out in my Composer View by the Surname of the Artist, so I have Bach, Balsom, Beethoven ... and then right near the end "Various" for the excerpt type stuff. I used an Expression type Library field for this.

And, when a given piece (concerto, sonata...) is split into three or four tracks, it would be convenient to have access to the track number.
It's up to you when you split whether you leave the original track numbers or renumber them starting at 1 for the two "pseudo" cds.  MC lets you do what suits you.

Logged

Frobozz

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 641
  • There is a small mailbox here.
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2014, 09:30:38 am »

I do not really feel really to re-tag my 10000+ tracks, even on an automated way... What I find frustrating is that I was able to tune the "normal" (on the PC) display to perfectly suit my needs, but JRemote / Gizmo let you choose only between 3 or 4 different fields.

I wouldn't be happy being faced with that sort of retagging job either.  It boils down to busy work that shouldn't be necessary.  If players and programs handled classical tagging with the composer field then this wouldn't necessary.  The workaround of putting the composer in the artist field is a kludge.  A hack that shouldn't be necessary.

Gizmo is better than this, and better than the other software that doesn't handle classical tagging well.  Gizmo should be flexible enough to handle classical the way classical ought to be tagged.

We should ask the devs to try to get some feature improvement work done on Gizmo to fix this.
Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 72438
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2014, 11:13:28 am »

I do not really feel really to re-tag my 10000+ tracks, even on an automated way... What I find frustrating is that I was able to tune the "normal" (on the PC) display to perfectly suit my needs, but JRemote / Gizmo let you choose only between 3 or 4 different fields.
Try searching your audio files for a composer.  Then enter that composer as the composer tag.  It's not very hard.
Logged

AndyU

  • Galactic Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 363
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2014, 11:44:18 am »

I wouldn't be happy being faced with that sort of retagging job either.  It boils down to busy work that shouldn't be necessary.  If players and programs handled classical tagging with the composer field then this wouldn't necessary.  The workaround of putting the composer in the artist field is a kludge.  A hack that shouldn't be necessary.

JRemote DOES handle classical tagging with the composer field! I'm sure Gizmo does too. Just click on "Customize Views for Gizmo .." in the media network pane and add a view called, say,"Classical", first level Composer, second level Album, with a rule that specifies Genre=Classical, and you should be done.
Logged

Frobozz

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 641
  • There is a small mailbox here.
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2014, 07:56:52 pm »

JRemote DOES handle classical tagging with the composer field! I'm sure Gizmo does too. Just click on "Customize Views for Gizmo .." in the media network pane and add a view called, say,"Classical", first level Composer, second level Album, with a rule that specifies Genre=Classical, and you should be done.

It does.  Except for some views, like the Playing Now screen.
I suspect that was one of the views that krmasson was complaining about.
Is it possible to customize the Playing Now screen on Android Gizmo to display the composer field?
Logged

krmasson

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2014, 01:53:13 am »

Yes, I was thinking about the "Playing now" pane (Gizmo). It is possible to customize this pane to display some fields (album, artist, track title...), but the number of available fields is limited, and Composer is definitively not part of the list, at least in MC 17. I have tried to infer/guess the possible name of the field, but failed at that.

Beside that, I was able to "perfectly" organize my views by albums/composer, as AndyU suggested. My issue is just a matter of display in just Gizmo, and that's what make it so frustrating.


To summarize, I just want (sorry, would like) the Composer field, as tagged in my flac files, to appear in the Gizmo/JRemote "playing now" pane. And the track number, may be.
Logged

krmasson

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2014, 01:58:58 am »

Try searching your audio files for a composer.  Then enter that composer as the composer tag.  It's not very hard.
My files are already tagged with the Composer tag (and also ComposerSort). Just that I cannot having them displayed in Gizmo.
Logged

Listener

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1084
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2014, 12:28:37 pm »

You might consider WebGizmo.  You can customize the HTML and Javascript.
Logged

krmasson

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2014, 02:11:03 pm »

You might consider WebGizmo.  You can customize the HTML and Javascript.
I know, and I did (added more lines to display CD title). But, once again, the fields available for display, (listed in http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/WebEngine_SDK, section PlayingNowFile) are in limited number, and the Composer field is not among them.
Logged

Vincent Kars

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1154
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2014, 02:15:54 pm »

In Tools > Options > Media network > Advanced one can configure the tags to be displayed in Gizmo including the composer tag
Logged

krmasson

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2014, 02:42:31 pm »

I did that too: this allows to customize the navigation through the collection, even with the possibility to add several levels of browsing. This works fine, and is just magical.

But the composer is still not displayed in the "playing now" page (MC17).

Unless I am really missing something (I would be glad to discover  that this is the case) ? I suggest to continue this thread on a private channel, this would avoid polluting the whole forum.

mail :  poum {at) masson <dot] li

Regards
Logged

BillT

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2014, 03:07:03 pm »

Please keep the discussion open, this is a shortcoming of both the Gizmo and Web Gizmo Playing Now screens that has long annoyed me.

Obviously, like many things to do with classical music, it is of no importance to the developers, but if it keeps getting raised, maybe they'll address it one day!
Logged

Hendrik

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 10931
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2014, 03:12:02 pm »

We could define different content for the Playing Now screen based on the Genre, but that seems rather inflexible ...
Maybe we should allow Gizmo to be customized for those areas.
Logged
~ nevcairiel
~ Author of LAV Filters

krmasson

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2014, 03:59:40 pm »

Two different "playing now" pages, based on the genre containing or not the word "classical" ? Why not ?
Somewhat "inflexible" maybe, but that would be efficient, and could make the customer happy  :)

Or, propose 2 or 3 different templates for the "playing now" page, and the template to use could be a parameter of the view, beside the other existing parameters.
For the "Classical" template, I would suggest:
tracknumber, composer, trackname


In the specific case of WEBGizmo, the display view is already highly  customizable : just add "Composer" in the object model.
Logged

RonB

  • Recent member
  • *
  • Posts: 28
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2014, 03:25:48 am »

I've just begun ripping a collection of 2800 CDs (a majority are classical) and generally like what MC offers. I've read a lot of the Wiki and Forum and think I understand tagging well enough to handle classical, though I'd appreciate it if MC was able to cast a wider net for auto-tagging the genre.

I'm struggling more with defining views and getting the sort sequences I'd like. As suggested in the Well-Tempered Computer, I've defined a composer view and am populating the composer tags. That gives me a tree structure I prefer, but so far, not the album view I'd like, which is identical to the one shown here: http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/Players/JRiver/Classical.htm.

In other words, I'd like to view just albums tagged classical, sorted by composer and then work (a tag I've added and am also populating.) Another view would lump non-classical together and sort albums by artist, and exclude classical.

I've come across several high-level references to a couple of ways these two views could be made, but can't find a description of, for example, how to exclude a genre from a view or where to enter an expression defining a filter.

Help would be appreciated, whether here or a url elsewhere.

Ron B
Logged

krmasson

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2014, 03:50:56 am »

I had the similar case (mostly classical music, but "only" 1500 CD). I ended up with to main views, one filtered by "Style contains'Classical' or 'Style' contains 'Classique' "  (the French for Classical).

My other view (Not Classical) is tagged by "Style  does not contain Classical nor  Classique".

Then I have some other subviews, sorted by composer or album title, and/or filtered by Style containing (or not) some 3 or 4 particular keywords (Compilation, Vocal...)).

Basically, all my views are children of "Classical" or "Not Classical", and I manage the whole stuff by thoroughly tagging the "Style" field".

I can provide you with an XML export of by view definitions if you wish.
Logged

Listener

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1084
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2014, 10:50:26 am »

I've just begun ripping a collection of 2800 CDs (a majority are classical) and generally like what MC offers. I've read a lot of the Wiki and Forum and think I understand tagging well enough to handle classical, though I'd appreciate it if MC was able to cast a wider net for auto-tagging the genre.

I'm struggling more with defining views and getting the sort sequences I'd like. As suggested in the Well-Tempered Computer, I've defined a composer view and am populating the composer tags. That gives me a tree structure I prefer, but so far, not the album view I'd like, which is identical to the one shown here: http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/Players/JRiver/Classical.htm.

In other words, I'd like to view just albums tagged classical, sorted by composer and then work (a tag I've added and am also populating.) Another view would lump non-classical together and sort albums by artist, and exclude classical.

I've come across several high-level references to a couple of ways these two views could be made, but can't find a description of, for example, how to exclude a genre from a view or where to enter an expression defining a filter.

Help would be appreciated, whether here or a url elsewhere.


Here is a series of screenshots showing how you define a view for classical music

http://naturelover.smugmug.com/Other/JRiver-defining-a-classical/42193047_3H5c7F

For simplicity, I'd suggest that you select a set of names for genres or styles and use them uniformly ("Classical"  or "Classique" but not both.)
Logged

RonB

  • Recent member
  • *
  • Posts: 28
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2014, 12:47:17 am »

Thanks for quick replies! I'll munch on those for a while and see what I can produce.
Logged

Vincent Kars

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1154
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #44 on: June 24, 2014, 03:29:20 am »

You can define all kind of rules e.g. using genre to define what belongs to Classical but the moment you have a new value in the genre tag (or a typo) it invalidates the rule.

A simple solution imho
Define folders
C:\Noise\Classical
C:\Noise\Pop
Etc.

In the view use ’Rules for File display’ to limit the view to everything under Classical
http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/Players/MC14/MC14_View.htm
If you have more than one view, make them children of this view and choose “Use parent scheme rules for file display”
This makes them use the same rule hence you have to define this rule only once.

Logged

zenpmd

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 221
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #45 on: March 31, 2016, 12:57:11 am »

Has anyone got any advice on how to write multiple soloists into the tags? I am using the soloist field, do I just seperate the soloists by commas?
Logged

DJLegba

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 995
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #46 on: March 31, 2016, 06:13:51 am »

Has anyone got any advice on how to write multiple soloists into the tags? I am using the soloist field, do I just seperate the soloists by commas?

Use a semi-colon.
Logged

Arindelle

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 2772
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #47 on: March 31, 2016, 10:29:22 am »

Has anyone got any advice on how to write multiple soloists into the tags? I am using the soloist field, do I just seperate the soloists by commas?
yes as DJLegba already answered the semi-colon is your friend.

BTW the field soloists (note the plural) exists already. It is one of those can't modify fields, but it is already a semi-colon delimited field. If your "soloist" field is fully populated you might want to flip the info into the "soloists" field using the =[fieldname] in the tag window. You could edit it in a list format that way. Your choice
Logged

zenpmd

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 221
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #48 on: March 31, 2016, 12:02:42 pm »

I only have a soloists field, not soloist?

Also, it does not appear to be a free-text writing field like artist, it seems to have weird check boxes contained within it?
Logged

Arindelle

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 2772
Re: Tagging classical music.
« Reply #49 on: March 31, 2016, 12:36:40 pm »

I only have a soloists field, not soloist?

Also, it does not appear to be a free-text writing field like artist, it seems to have weird check boxes contained within it?
This is normal -- you can still type in the box. But you don't need to add the semi-colon just continue to add as many as you need. Best for use in the tag window or via pane tagging. I thought you created a field called soloist (not plural). For fields that are not like this, to add multiple values you would need the separator (semi-colon) though. In this precise case you don't. 8)
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up