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Author Topic: 3 way crossover by HDMI connection.  (Read 9290 times)

zmyrna

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3 way crossover by HDMI connection.
« on: August 11, 2015, 02:37:46 pm »

I am new to JRiver and am trying to implement a 3 way crossover for a stereo set up.
Here is what I have done so far:
I downloaded the JRiver 20 trial on my laptop.
Connected my laptop to a Panasonix SA-XR700 7.1 AV receiver with an HDMI cable.
Selected output format "2 channels (inside 7.1 container)".
Now I need a way of routing L/R signal into the surround channels but I can't find it.
Do I need a plug-in or something?
Please help.
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mwillems

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Re: 3 way crossover by HDMI connection.
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2015, 02:54:52 pm »

I am new to JRiver and am trying to implement a 3 way crossover for a stereo set up.
Here is what I have done so far:
I downloaded the JRiver 20 trial on my laptop.
Connected my laptop to a Panasonix SA-XR700 7.1 AV receiver with an HDMI cable.
Selected output format "2 channels (inside 7.1 container)".
Now I need a way of routing L/R signal into the surround channels but I can't find it.
Do I need a plug-in or something?
Please help.

All the tools you need are in JRiver's parametric equalizer module in DSP Studio.  You'll want to use the "mix channels" entry and copy the relevant channels, and then apply your crossover filters etc.  It's all there.
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zmyrna

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Re: 3 way crossover by HDMI connection.
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2015, 06:37:20 pm »

Okay, thanks...
I used the "mix channels"
copied L to SL and RL
copied R to SR and RR
now I can see on the analyzer that all L and R channels are playing the same thing

however
on the actual sound output from the AVR
I am still hearing completely different things from say L and SL.
SL output is much muted with no bass and very little voice content.

what could be the reason?
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mwillems

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Re: 3 way crossover by HDMI connection.
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2015, 06:47:15 pm »

Many receivers have built in processing they apply to all sound.  That processing assumes that what's present on SL is surround content, so it redirects the bass to the subwoofer and does other processing geared towards "improving" surround. 

Many receivers have a setting called "direct audio" or "pure direct" or "passthrough" that effectively disables all processing and bass management.  You need to find that setting, or barring that, turn off as much of your receiver's processing as you can.
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zmyrna

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Re: 3 way crossover by HDMI connection.
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2015, 04:41:05 am »

It does indeed seem to be the problem.
Unfortunately Panasonic XR700 does not seem to have a direct passthrough mode.
In surround mode it has 3 options:
Dolby PL2x, NEO:6 or SFC.
When you turn those processing off, the AVR comes off surround mode,
and starts playing 2 channel stereo.
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mwillems

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Re: 3 way crossover by HDMI connection.
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2015, 07:23:28 am »

I don't have one of those receivers in front of me, but looking at the online manual, page 36 seems to suggest that your receiver has a built in "bi-amp" mode as well as a built in "triple amp" mode : "You can drive speakers with front, surround and surround back speaker amps instead of using BI-AMP (triple amp mode)."

http://service.us.panasonic.com/OPERMANPDF/SAXR700.PDF

The manual is sketchy on details, but I'd look into those settings. If those don't pan out, then you'll want to set every speaker's size to "Large" and set the lowpass filter as low as it will let you.  That's a suboptimal, but it will get you part of the way there.

Hopefully that "triple amp" setting will work out.  These kinds of things are why I gave up trying to use a receiver for bi or tri amping.  Receivers can be very inflexible  :-\
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zmyrna

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Re: 3 way crossover by HDMI connection.
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2015, 11:24:03 am »

bi amp and triple amp modes are for two channel only...
i need complete opposite; all amps/channels working separately so that i can apply dsp filters individually.
i tried large speaker option and lowest possible low pass too, with no success.
the panasonic sends very little info to the rear channels in "pseudo" surround; there is not much going on when you listen to the rears only (just some ambient sound).
i am not giving up though. i will buy a direct audio receiver...
too many cables drive me nuts :(
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blgentry

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Re: 3 way crossover by HDMI connection.
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2015, 11:59:31 am »

I think your container is the issue.  When you set it to 2 channels in a 7.1 container, I think it's only sending 2 channels over the HDMI to your receiver.  That's not what you want.  You want to send 6 channels as I understand it.  Low, Mid, and High for Left and Right.  So I think you want a 7.1 container, period.

Then tell your receiver that all speakers are Large.  That will remove the receiver's highpass for each of those speakers.  Set the distances to all the same value, so it doesn't try to do any delays.

I think that will get you all set up.  You may have to experiment with the channel assignments to be sure about them.  I'd start with just one channel.  I'd assign it  to Left Front and make sure it's correct.  Then assign it to Left Surround and make sure it's correct.  Etc.

Good luck.  This is cool stuff.  :)

Brian.
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mwillems

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Re: 3 way crossover by HDMI connection.
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2015, 12:07:32 pm »

I think your container is the issue.  When you set it to 2 channels in a 7.1 container, I think it's only sending 2 channels over the HDMI to your receiver.  That's not what you want.  You want to send 6 channels as I understand it.  Low, Mid, and High for Left and Right.  So I think you want a 7.1 container, period.

I can see why you might think that, and you'd be right if OP hadn't already done the channel copying and routing mentioned above.  In order to do tri-amped speakers with only 8 channels of output, you need to downmix to stereo (or 2.1) and then make copies of the stereo channels manually to apply the filters (JRiver doesn't have a "bi-amp" or "tri-amp" mode).  So "stereo in a 7.1 container" is the correct choice (it downmixes all audio to stereo, but gives you six blank channels to work with). Stereo in a 5.1 container could also work if OP doesn't have a sub.

The vanilla 7.1 container doesn't downmix 7.1 or 5.1 material, and actually upmixes stereo material (with the default settings), which is undesirable when you're trying to tri-amp and only have 8 channels to work with.  

Quote
Then tell your receiver that all speakers are Large.  That will remove the receiver's highpass for each of those speakers.  Set the distances to all the same value, so it doesn't try to do any delays.

This is good advice.

Quote
Good luck.  This is cool stuff.  :)

It is cool; active crossovers are not quite magic, but close (to quote a famous man) http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm

bi amp and triple amp modes are for two channel only...
i need complete opposite; all amps/channels working separately so that i can apply dsp filters individually.
i tried large speaker option and lowest possible low pass too, with no success.
the panasonic sends very little info to the rear channels in "pseudo" surround; there is not much going on when you listen to the rears only (just some ambient sound).
i am not giving up though. i will buy a direct audio receiver...
too many cables drive me nuts :(

That is a bummer.  I can only suggest you keep trying different combos of settings, or if you're thinking about replacing it, consider getting a multi-channel DAC and some poweramps instead of a receiver.  Then you have total control of routing  ;D
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blgentry

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Re: 3 way crossover by HDMI connection.
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2015, 04:18:00 pm »

I can see why you might think that, and you'd be right if OP hadn't already done the channel copying and routing mentioned above.  In order to do tri-amped speakers with only 8 channels of output, you need to downmix to stereo (or 2.1) and then make copies of the stereo channels manually to apply the filters (JRiver doesn't have a "bi-amp" or "tri-amp" mode).  So "stereo in a 7.1 container" is the correct choice (it downmixes all audio to stereo, but gives you six blank channels to work with). Stereo in a 5.1 container could also work if OP doesn't have a sub.

Ah, ok I think I understand.  This isn't covered in the wiki, but I found some threads that talk about it (actually with you doing a lot of the talking!).  :) 

How does JRSS mixing play into this?  Does it matter at all for 2 channel sources?  I'm guessing it only matters with multi-channel (5.1 for example), where it would downmix to 2ch and then do your customized copy and crossover.  Which I guess is exactly what you'd want because in this kind of setup you're not using a 7.1 receiver as a surround system:  It's just a bunch of channels being used for active crossover.

Brian.
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mwillems

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Re: 3 way crossover by HDMI connection.
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2015, 04:54:18 pm »

Ah, ok I think I understand.  This isn't covered in the wiki, but I found some threads that talk about it (actually with you doing a lot of the talking!).  :) 

I've got a bi-amping guide half written, but I had my first child about a year ago, and let's just say that I haven't had a lot of time for audio measurements and writing!

Quote
How does JRSS mixing play into this?  Does it matter at all for 2 channel sources?  I'm guessing it only matters with multi-channel (5.1 for example), where it would downmix to 2ch and then do your customized copy and crossover.  Which I guess is exactly what you'd want because in this kind of setup you're not using a 7.1 receiver as a surround system:  It's just a bunch of channels being used for active crossover.

Brian.

Yes exactly;  you want the JRSS mixing to mix all formats to stereo (and leave stereo alone), which is what the two channel in x channel container settings do.  Then you copy the channels and perform all the filtering yourself.
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zmyrna

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Re: 3 way crossover by HDMI connection.
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2015, 04:04:34 am »

I found the AVR I want:
It does have "Pure Direct" mode,
which means all processing switched off on the AVR.
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jjazdk

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Re: 3 way crossover by HDMI connection.
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2015, 05:27:44 am »

I found the AVR I want:
It does have "Pure Direct" mode,
which means all processing switched off on the AVR.

It is not a matter of finding a receiver with "Pure Direct", you just need a receiver that takes an 8ch Linear PCM stream via HDMI.

When I read the manual for your receiver, I don't see any reason why it should not work, honestly I think it is something in your setup (on the receiver or JRiver) that is not correct.
From the manual: "The unit is compatible with linear PCM 8-channel surround signals decoded by the BD player and other equipment (up to 96 kHz/24 bit). See the operating instructions for equipment used for playback."

When you stream music to the receiver from JRiver, what icons light up on the receivers display (to the right, under "DIGITAL INPUT") ?
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jjazdk

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Re: 3 way crossover by HDMI connection.
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2015, 05:28:55 am »

Oh, and you should of course turn off all of these, as you do not want any of those mixing surround modes: "Dolby PL2x, NEO:6 or SFC"
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zmyrna

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Re: 3 way crossover by HDMI connection.
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2015, 07:16:56 am »

Oh, and you should of course turn off all of these, as you do not want any of those mixing surround modes: "Dolby PL2x, NEO:6 or SFC"

As I have said, that is exactly the problem:
When I turn any of the "Dolby PL2x, NEO:6 or SFC" off, the receiver automatically switches into stereo with only the front speakers playing (the surround light comes off).

The HDMI cable is plugged into the BD/DVD player in, and "BD/DVD" is displayed on the LED screen for input selection.
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mwillems

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Re: 3 way crossover by HDMI connection.
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2015, 07:17:43 am »

It is not a matter of finding a receiver with "Pure Direct", you just need a receiver that takes an 8ch Linear PCM stream via HDMI.

This is not really so.  Many receivers that accept an 8Ch linear PCM stream still perform processing on the stream that is not user defeatable and not desirable for an active crossover system.  

The words "pure direct" are not important, I agree, that's just one of the ways that receivers describe a "passthrough" mode.  Many receivers insist on applying some processing to the channels they receive and will not pass them through without additional processing.  It's hard to tell which receivers will allow you to do that without physically having one in front of you, unless it's manual makes clear that there is a passthrough, direct, pure direct, etc. type mode.

I can guarantee that being able to accept an 8Ch PCM input is not a guarantee that a receiver will be suitable for active crossovers.  

Quote
When I read the manual for your receiver, I don't see any reason why it should not work, honestly I think it is something in your setup (on the receiver or JRiver) that is not correct.

I agree that it might be possible for OP to configure his receiver to reproduce the signals, but it may not be too.  I've encountered several receivers that insisted (for example) on applying a low pass and some spatialization processing to anything coming in on a "surround" channel.  The processing was not in any way defeatable.

That said, I think it's worth OP's time to try and find a way to make it work with his existing receiver, but as they've noted several times, it may not actually work.
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jjazdk

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Re: 3 way crossover by HDMI connection.
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2015, 07:27:30 am »

Which icons are lighted in the area I have marked red on the picture?



The display MUST show PCM, otherwise you for sure cannot succeed in your task.

I can of course be mistaken, but I don't see any indication in the manual that you cannot have multi channel audio without one of those "surround" modes being switched on.


As I have said, that is exactly the problem:
When I turn any of the "Dolby PL2x, NEO:6 or SFC" off, the receiver automatically switches into stereo with only the front speakers playing (the surround light comes off).

The HDMI cable is plugged into the BD/DVD player in, and "BD/DVD" is displayed on the LED screen for input selection.
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jjazdk

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Re: 3 way crossover by HDMI connection.
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2015, 07:29:23 am »

Quote from: mwillems
This is not really so.  Many receivers that accept an 8Ch linear PCM stream still perform processing on the stream that is not user defeatable and not desirable for an active crossover system.

Okay, luckily that is not something I have ever encountered in the receivers/processors that I have used.
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zmyrna

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Re: 3 way crossover by HDMI connection.
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2015, 01:25:38 pm »

I now have a Pioneer SC-LX72 AV receiver.
Connecting my laptop via HDMI to the Pioneer, I still can't get the 3 way output.
On Direct Stream mode, the receiver "sees" a stereo signal only.
I conclude that my laptop can only do stereo signal through HDMI output.

I am now using miniDSP nanoAVR between a blueray player and the Pioneer AVR (all connected via HDMI).
And I can route front channel signal to the surround channels and the 3 way DSP crossover works alright.
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