Topic: Cambridge Cxn does not do gapless with MC controlling it (Read 27750 times)

altsouza · « **on:** September 29, 2015, 08:11:07 pm »

Hi,

I have just bought the Superb CA Cxn.
I already own a 851 dac, but think the Cxn is better, more ralaxed etc...
I control it with JRiver 21 because the JRemote is much better than CA control app.
But I can't get gapless to work. Floyd's "Dark Side" does not play gapeless, but it works well if I start it with the CA control app.
Any help is welcome.
Thanks
Antonio

Here is the renderer report:
DMR Report (by Whitebear) for CXN
=================================

Device Description Url=http://192.168.0.132:8050/c0f84e84-3b64-4edc-8a2b-18c25cd55f6f/description.xml
HTTP Server Header=StreamMagic UPnP/1.0 Radio/1.0 DLNADOC/1.50
Friendly Name=CXN
Manufacturer Name=Cambridge Audio
Manufacturer Url=http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/
Model Name=CXN
Model Number=2476
Serial Number=000ca422
UPnP Device Type=urn:schemas-upnp-org:device:MediaRenderer:1
UPnP Media Renderer version=1
Unique Device Name=uuid:c0f84e84-3b64-4edc-8a2b-18c25cd55f6f
X_DLNADOC Element=DMR-1.50
Service Url for RenderingControl=http://192.168.0.132:8050/c0f84e84-3b64-4edc-8a2b-18c25cd55f6f/RenderingControl/RenderingControl1.xml
Service Url for ConnectionManager=http://192.168.0.132:8050/c0f84e84-3b64-4edc-8a2b-18c25cd55f6f/ConnectionManager/ConnectionManager1.xml
Service Url for ContentDirectory=http://192.168.0.132:8050/c0f84e84-3b64-4edc-8a2b-18c25cd55f6f/ContentDirectory/ContentDirectory1.xml
Service Url for AVTransport=http://192.168.0.132:8050/c0f84e84-3b64-4edc-8a2b-18c25cd55f6f/AVTransport/AVTransport1.xml
AVT:SetNextAVTransportURI (gapless play)=Supported
AVT:SyncPlay (synchronous play)=Feature not available on this DMR version
RC:GetVolume action=Supported
RC:SetVolume action=Supported
AVT:Event Subscription=Succeded
Play test file result=Play failed => Time out

Media Center DLNA Server Advanced Settings
==========================================

DLNA=Off
DLNAExtra=Off
Enable bitrate Field=Off
Filter international characters=Checked
Include session ID=Off
Playstation 3 Compatible=Off
Present Caption Resources=Off
Present Small Artwork=Off
Present Subtitle Resources=Off
Skip Child Count=Checked
Use flat URLs=Checked
Use full URLs=Checked
WMC Compatible=Off

Declared Supported Audio, Image & Video Formats
===============================================

http-get:*:audio/L16:DLNA.ORG_PN=LPCM
http-get:*:audio/mpeg:DLNA.ORG_PN=MP3
http-get:*:audio/mpegurl:*
http-get:*:audio/x-ms-wma:*
http-get:*:audio/L16:*
http-get:*:audio/mpeg:*
http-get:*:audio/*:*

Evaluated Supported Audio Formats
=================================

audio/L16   LPCM   Dlna   48000   2   16   Yes
audio/mpeg   MP3   Dlna   *   2   *   No
audio/x-ms-wma   WMABASE   Fuzzy   *   2   *   No
audio/L16   LPCM   Fuzzy   48000   2   16   Yes
audio/mpeg   MP3   Fuzzy   *   2   *   No
audio/mpegurl      Undefined
audio/*      Undefined

kensn · « **Reply #1 on:** September 29, 2015, 08:23:14 pm »

And your settings under AUDIO > TRACK CHANGE are set correctly?

altsouza · « **Reply #2 on:** September 29, 2015, 08:41:59 pm »

What are the setings in audio change ?

AndrewFG · « **Reply #3 on:** September 30, 2015, 01:10:29 am »

Right click on the renderer in MC and under DLNA settings enable SetNext support.

altsouza · « **Reply #4 on:** September 30, 2015, 04:01:24 am »

I have checked and un-checked the SetNext functions many times.

AndrewFG · « **Reply #5 on:** September 30, 2015, 05:45:33 am »

Ok. If SetNext support is disabled then it will certainly not play gapless. So do you confirm that your problem does occur when SetNext support is enabled ??

altsouza · « **Reply #6 on:** September 30, 2015, 10:37:09 am »

Yes, I do confirm that it will not play gapless when setnext is enable

AndrewFG · « **Reply #7 on:** September 30, 2015, 12:51:18 pm »

Ok. Then please try this (see attachment)..

altsouza · « **Reply #8 on:** September 30, 2015, 04:30:55 pm »

I am afraid this is no possible.
There are no audio options for external Renderers, it directs you to Dlna config page.

Here is a new newbie question:
Can I duplicate the Cxn zone (remember this is a external renderer)?
I want to have:
Cxn 1 zone, without dsp over dlna (attached to dlna 1)
And
Cxn 2 zone , with dsp over dlna (attached to dlna 2)
So I can switch it using JRemote.

Thanks

AndrewFG · « **Reply #9 on:** September 30, 2015, 06:17:21 pm »

For the gapless issue, please follow my previous post. The audio output settings do (also) have an impact on how MC serves files via UPNP.

For the Dsp issue, look at the DLNA server Audio settings, Dsp.

altsouza · « **Reply #10 on:** October 01, 2015, 04:52:09 am »

Hi Andrew,

I did make the changes at "Player" zone audio config page, but It did not work.
Does audio seting are Zone specific?? so how the "Player" local Zone can affect the Dynamic "Cxn" zone???

Thanks

AndrewFG · « **Reply #11 on:** October 01, 2015, 05:57:18 am »

Its odd, but in some cases the Track Transition settings (gapless etc.) for "Player" seem to also have an impact on how MC serves files via DLNA (don't ask me why though..)

altsouza · « **Reply #12 on:** October 01, 2015, 08:25:55 am »

In my case it did not impact!

AndrewFG · « **Reply #13 on:** October 01, 2015, 08:47:22 am »

Ok.

Please try the following:

1) Create a short playlist of 3 or more tracks that you want to push gapless to the renderer, and press play
2) Click on the renderer in MC's Playing Now panel, and observe how many tracks appear in the renderer's playlist

If the MC renderer playlist contains two tracks it indicates that MC was able to queue a pair of tracks for the renderer to play sequentially, and if the renderer does not actually play those tracks without gaps then the problem is undoubtedly in the renderer and not in MC. Whereas if the MC renderer playlist contains a single track it indicates that MC was not able to queue a pair of tracks for gapless play.

altsouza · « **Reply #14 on:** October 01, 2015, 02:50:43 pm »

Hi, I playd Pink Floyd Dark Side, all tracks appear on Playing now, but no gapless sequence.
When I use CA own app, The Control, it is ok, the tracks plays gapeless.
But i would prefer to use JRemote, its better and faster!

AndrewFG · « **Reply #15 on:** October 01, 2015, 03:41:45 pm »

Ok. My previous suggestion was anyway wrong. I was referring to an older version of MC that behaved differently.

I am running out of ideas. But try this..

Download the version of my DMRA (from my sig) that includes the test files too.
Select your renderer.
On the About page, check Enable Http Logging
On the Renderer Tests page, select the two L16 files (we know from your prior posts that your renderer supports them)
Check the box Use SetNextAVTransportURI
Press Play and wait for the test to finish
Send me the resulting Http log file by PM or email

MikeO · « **Reply #16 on:** October 14, 2015, 10:19:06 am »

Just to add a little confusion ...

I have a CxN too, I use the CA app but I agree the jremote is better although running through dlna you can manage the navigation better than the native app by configuring the Dlna menus in mc21

I use the cxn mostly with a local ext hdd usb3 and I get gapless no problem.

I just turned on Dlna in mc21 on my desktop and am using that as the source via Dlna. Pf dark side plays fine.

Switch to jremote and no gapless. Does this point to jremote rather than Dlna itself ?

Mike

Ps CA have a new wireless dongle that vastly improves wireless access to the unit, it looks like memory stick rather than an aerial. Did you get this one. I got it as a test to fix wi fi issue I had.

altsouza · « **Reply #17 on:** October 16, 2015, 08:12:57 pm »

Interesting!! I will try controling from the desktop pc.

MikeO · « **Reply #18 on:** October 23, 2015, 03:20:45 am »

Did you have any success ?

I have played a bit with JRiver as the DLNA server feeding CXN and it works fine , I get some "stutter" on one example of 24/192 HD Track but that may well be the file itself

As to gapless I have no problems at all if I feed from DLNA

If I use JRemote and select CXN as the output device I lose gapless, so my bet would be that the JRemote app is the culprit not JRiver per se

I will add a post to thye Remotes board and see what LesPaul has to say

Mike

AndrewFG · « **Reply #19 on:** October 23, 2015, 06:18:21 am »

Quote from: MikeO on October 23, 2015, 03:20:45 am

If I use JRemote and select CXN as the output device I lose gapless, so my bet would be that the JRemote app is the culprit not JRiver per se

That is certainly an inspired guess.

The theory: In UPnP it is the Control Point (and not the Server) that pushes the track play commands to the Renderer. And the Control Point may choose to use either gapped or gapless command mechanisms. So even it the tracks are coming off the same Server, and going to the same Renderer, the gapped / gapless functionality will depend on which CP is used.

The practice: We know that when MC is acting as CP and Server then it can definitely push gapless. However I am not entirely sure how JRemote functions (I need to check), but there are two possibilities, either a) it is acting in its own right as a UPnP Control Point (in which case it may well be that JRemote does not support gapless), or (which I think is the real case) b) it is acting as a proxy to MC and not actually controlling the track play process directly but rather adding the tracks to the MC playlist and telling MC to execute the Control Point functions (in which case whether JRemote or MC is creating the playlist should have no impact on gapless functionality).

I could test this myself if it is (a) or (b), but only next week. So if anyone has the answer already, please post it here

MikeO · « **Reply #20 on:** October 24, 2015, 06:29:04 am »

Hi

It looks like the other post is locked now ... sorry to cause confusion.

I am not up to speed on what you refer to as a "control point" so I can't comment or test further.

I thought DLNA and uPnP were the same thing , am I wrong ... One of my other renderers (Mede8er 1000x3d) refers to uPnP when it replays and navigates DLNA as served up by MC as the server.

This not a big issue , the CA Connect app sees the DLNA menus as defined in the Media Network section of MC Options , so you can still get a lot richer navigation using these menus eg uing Custom Tags

Its just that JRemote in terms of functionality and visually is mikes ahead of CA Connect.

Mike

JimH · « **Reply #21 on:** October 24, 2015, 06:39:39 am »

UPnP and DLNA are close but not identical.

The server settings might matter. Setnextavtransport should be checked.

AndrewFG · « **Reply #22 on:** October 24, 2015, 11:56:15 am »

Quote from: JimH on October 24, 2015, 06:39:39 am

UPnP and DLNA are close but not identical.

Strictly speaking DLNA is identical to UPnP, whereas UPnP is not identical to DLNA

DLNA is a very explicitly defined subset of the rather looser UPnP specifications.

MikeO · « **Reply #23 on:** November 03, 2015, 01:07:59 am »

What is the SetNextAVTransport that Jim is referring to, is there a way of seeing how its set ?

Mike

IslandMD · « **Reply #24 on:** November 03, 2015, 01:50:58 pm »

Hi. New JRiver user here. I just posted this question in the "Gapless DLNA not working" thread but this one is newer so I'll re-post here. Like the OP, I also have a Cambridge streamer, the new 851N which is very similar to the CXN. Here are the results of Whitebear's DMR report:

DMR Report (by Whitebear) for 851N
==================================

Device Description Url=http://192.168.1.78:8050/8688f491-5d69-4a21-97d3-1daf40f3bd9a/description.xml
HTTP Server Header=StreamMagic UPnP/1.0 Radio/1.0 DLNADOC/1.50
Friendly Name=851N
Manufacturer Name=Cambridge Audio
Manufacturer Url=http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/
Model Name=851N
Model Number=2504
Serial Number=000caf83
UPnP Device Type=urn:schemas-upnp-org:device:MediaRenderer:1
UPnP Media Renderer version=1
Unique Device Name=uuid:8688f491-5d69-4a21-97d3-1daf40f3bd9a
X_DLNADOC Element=DMR-1.50
Service Url for RenderingControl=http://192.168.1.78:8050/8688f491-5d69-4a21-97d3-1daf40f3bd9a/RenderingControl/RenderingControl1.xml
Service Url for ConnectionManager=http://192.168.1.78:8050/8688f491-5d69-4a21-97d3-1daf40f3bd9a/ConnectionManager/ConnectionManager1.xml
Service Url for ContentDirectory=http://192.168.1.78:8050/8688f491-5d69-4a21-97d3-1daf40f3bd9a/ContentDirectory/ContentDirectory1.xml
Service Url for AVTransport=http://192.168.1.78:8050/8688f491-5d69-4a21-97d3-1daf40f3bd9a/AVTransport/AVTransport1.xml
AVT:SetNextAVTransportURI (gapless play)=Supported
AVT:SyncPlay (synchronous play)=Feature not available on this DMR version
RC:GetVolume action=Supported
RC:SetVolume action=Supported
AVT:Event Subscription=Fail
Play test file result=Play success => Start Ok / Stop Ok / Subscribe error

Media Center DLNA Server Advanced Settings
==========================================

DLNA=Checked
DLNAExtra=Checked
Enable bitrate Field=Checked
Filter international characters=Off
Include session ID=Off
Playstation 3 Compatible=Off
Present Caption Resources=Checked
Present Small Artwork=Off
Present Subtitle Resources=Checked
Skip Child Count=Off
Use flat URLs=Off
Use full URLs=Off
WMC Compatible=Off

Declared Supported Audio, Image & Video Formats
===============================================

http-get:*:audio/L16:DLNA.ORG_PN=LPCM
http-get:*:audio/mpeg:DLNA.ORG_PN=MP3
http-get:*:audio/mpegurl:*
http-get:*:audio/x-ms-wma:*
http-get:*:audio/L16:*
http-get:*:audio/mpeg:*
http-get:*:audio/*:*

Evaluated Supported Audio Formats
=================================

audio/L16   LPCM   Dlna   48000   2   16   Yes
audio/mpeg   MP3   Dlna   *   2   *   No
audio/x-ms-wma   WMABASE   Fuzzy   *   2   *   No
audio/L16   LPCM   Fuzzy   48000   2   16   Yes
audio/mpeg   MP3   Fuzzy   *   2   *   No
audio/mpegurl      Undefined
audio/*      Undefined

It appears that SetNextAVTransportURI is supported but I cannot get gapless to work using JRiver/JRemote. I've tried to adjust all of the settings mentioned so far. I've contacted Cambridge Audio but they can't get gapless to work with JRiver either and they don't seem interested in any firmware fixes for this problem. However, I still have a suspicion that the problem might be somewhere in JRiver's settings or perhaps in the software itself. Has anyone had any luck solving this? Thanks.

MikeO · « **Reply #25 on:** November 07, 2015, 02:00:42 am »

I have found Cambridge audio very good so far they fixed my wi fi issue very quickly.

Their app does gapless by USB drive and when I use dlna from my desktop jriver server

I only see an issue when I try to control via jremote hence my suspicion its jremote

MikeO · « **Reply #26 on:** November 09, 2015, 01:05:40 am »

Am I not right that LesPaul is the author of jremote and part of the jriver team , maybe he could comment

Mike

Mark_Chat · « **Reply #27 on:** November 09, 2015, 11:30:57 am »

Maybe it is connected - I have a Sony DLNA speaker SRS-X88 which also states it supports SetNextAVTransportURI but does not do Gapless via JRiver - either controlled from the PC or via JRemote.

The Sony app ("SongPal") makes gapless work however.

It is all a tad frustrating!

JimH · « **Reply #28 on:** November 09, 2015, 11:38:08 am »

You could use AndrewFG's utility to check the renderers. It's in his signature above.

Author of Whitebear Digital Media Renderer Analyser - http://www.whitebear.ch/dmra

AndrewFG · « **Reply #29 on:** November 10, 2015, 12:37:57 am »

Quote from: JimH on November 09, 2015, 11:38:08 am

You could use AndrewFG's utility to check the renderers. It's in his signature above.

Author of Whitebear Digital Media Renderer Analyser - http://www.whitebear.ch/dmra

Specifically on my DMRA app, go to the main tab; check the HTTP logging checkbox; go to the renderer tests tab; select two audio tracks (say the L16 44k track and the L16 48k track); check the "use SetNextAVTransportURI" CHECKBOX; run the test; go to the main tab again; save the HTTP log file; and post it here...

Mark_Chat · « **Reply #30 on:** November 12, 2015, 07:52:34 am »

Dear Andrew - well, here is the HTML log file from the two sequential render test files as you suggested.

It all looks like gobbledigook to me, so I cannot decipher why the DLNA renderer supports SetNextAVTransportURI but doesn't actually play gaplessly except via the rather crappy Songpal Sony app.

Sorry to hijack the Cambridge Cxn topic, but I wonder if the problem with gapless is related.

AndrewFG · « **Reply #31 on:** November 12, 2015, 04:29:02 pm »

^

Thanks for the log file. All of the UPnP transactions functioned as they are supposed to do. This log shows no external problem as far as playback is concerned; and therefore so if you do indeed observe a problem in playing gapless, then that problem is clearly inside your renderer, and not external. You need to report this to Sony.

PS you are quite right: this has nothing to do with the OP's question concerning his/her Cambridge renderer problem...

AndrewFG · « **Reply #32 on:** November 22, 2015, 10:34:58 am »

Quote from: AndrewFG on October 23, 2015, 06:18:21 am

That is certainly an inspired guess.

The theory: In UPnP it is the Control Point (and not the Server) that pushes the track play commands to the Renderer. And the Control Point may choose to use either gapped or gapless command mechanisms. So even it the tracks are coming off the same Server, and going to the same Renderer, the gapped / gapless functionality will depend on which CP is used.

The practice: We know that when MC is acting as CP and Server then it can definitely push gapless. However I am not entirely sure how JRemote functions (I need to check), but there are two possibilities, either a) it is acting in its own right as a UPnP Control Point (in which case it may well be that JRemote does not support gapless), or (which I think is the real case) b) it is acting as a proxy to MC and not actually controlling the track play process directly but rather adding the tracks to the MC playlist and telling MC to execute the Control Point functions (in which case whether JRemote or MC is creating the playlist should have no impact on gapless functionality).

I could test this myself if it is (a) or (b), but only next week. So if anyone has the answer already, please post it here

I finally tested it.

When a track is being pushed to from MC's DLNA Server to a remote Renderer, the control commands are always actually issued by MC, regardless of whether the user is controlling MC locally or remotely via the JRemote application. This means that MC's behaviour concerning gapless play support will not depend on whether the user is operating MC locally or remotely from JRemote.

MikeO · « **Reply #33 on:** November 23, 2015, 01:20:25 am »

Thanks Andrew for the info

It still doesn't fit though , when I have MC as the DLNA server , and use the Cambridge Audio App (CA Connect) to navigate / control etc then I see normal gapless playback.

If I now use JRemote to navigate / control and set the zone as the CXN , I see gaps. This implies there are 2 mechanisms in play?

I have the CXN set up as a Zone , with a Zone switch "Video to Audio" directing output to the CXN when Media Type goes from Video to Audio, conversely a switch for "Audio to Video" sending it to my Mede8er for the reverse action.

I am just setting up my new Gigabit network and a separate PC as a NAS , so I'll make sure all these settings are up to date and report back in the next few days

MC is set up .... Track Change > Use Gapless playback for sequential tracks is checked

Is there any chance LesPaul could comment on the JRemote side ?

Mike

AndrewFG · « **Reply #34 on:** November 23, 2015, 03:52:38 pm »

Quote from: MikeO on November 23, 2015, 01:20:25 am

It still doesn't fit though , when I have MC as the DLNA server , and use the Cambridge Audio App (CA Connect) to navigate / control etc then I see normal gapless playback.

If I now use JRemote to navigate / control and set the zone as the CXN , I see gaps. This implies there are 2 mechanisms in play?

You may be right about 2 mechanisms. I don't know because I am not with JRiver. However based on the observed behavior, if something does need to be changed, then the change would need to be in the MC server application, and not in the JRemote application.

MikeO · « **Reply #35 on:** November 24, 2015, 12:56:21 am »

Hi Andrew I think you are right

Just now I WATCHED dark side play, between tracks the CxN display shows "Stopped" and then the next track artwork shows and the music restarts

Does that give any hint ?

It would imply to me a set of tracks rather than hapless stream

anybody from JRiver want to comment ?

Mike

AndrewFG · « **Reply #36 on:** November 24, 2015, 06:20:00 am »

MC can follow either of two possible command / status sequences as follows..

Case #1 - Gapped Play (either SetNext is not supported and/or fallback if Transport Events does not work)

SetAVTransportURI
Play
=> Playing
=> Stopped
SetAVTransportURI
Play
=> Playing
=> Stopped
..repeat..

Case #2 - Gapless Play (SetNext must be supported and Transport Events should be working)

SetAVTransportURI
Play
=> Playing
SetNextAVTransportURI
=> Transitioning
SetNextAVTransportURI
=> Transitioning
..repeat..

Now it could be that MC defaults to Case #1 when being controlled from JRemote. I don't know the answer, so a JRiver person will have to answer that.
However - for the avoidance of doubt - please check it with both possible settings of Ignore Transport Events.

bob · « **Reply #37 on:** January 04, 2016, 05:23:15 pm »

Found a NP30 laying around here and tried it out.

It returns a uPNP error code 602 (not implemented) when calling GetTransportSettings which MC doesn't like. This is also preventing the time slider in MC from updating.
If I change the call to GetDeviceCapabilities MC the slider and metadata are then updated properly.
Moving along, I tested SetNext support and that kind of worked. It will play gaplessly but it skipped ahead one track when doing so.
Will investigate more.

One thing though, Andrew if you are still following this thread, I thought GetTransportSettings support was required by the spec. Your thoughts?

AndrewFG · « **Reply #38 on:** January 05, 2016, 02:15:49 am »

Quote from: bob on January 04, 2016, 05:23:15 pm

One thing though, Andrew if you are still following this thread, I thought GetTransportSettings support was required by the spec. Your thoughts?

Hi bob,

Yes in the specifications both GetTransportSettings and GetDeviceCapabilities are indeed required to be implemented by renderers.

However, I don't actually see why you need to call those methods. Neither of them deliver the meta data that you need. And indeed the specifications do not require control points to implement either of them..

bob · « **Reply #39 on:** January 05, 2016, 10:18:06 am »

Quote from: AndrewFG on January 05, 2016, 02:15:49 am

Hi bob,

Yes in the specifications both GetTransportSettings and GetDeviceCapabilities are indeed required to be implemented by renderers.

However, I don't actually see why you need to call those methods. Neither of them deliver the meta data that you need. And indeed the specifications do not require control points to implement either of them..

I have been using it to test to see if the renderer is alive or not. I wanted to use something simple outside of the getposition call.

AndrewFG · « **Reply #40 on:** January 05, 2016, 11:44:16 am »

Ok. Understood. I tend to use GetTransportInfo for that.

But in any case I guess you cannot be held responsible for providing work arounds for every non compliant implementation of UPNP. I think the OP should take it up with the vendor and get them to fix it.

And at some point will add more tests to my DMRA to confirm if a renderer does indeed support all the REQUIRED methods...

bob · « **Reply #41 on:** January 07, 2016, 11:37:00 am »

I found another bug in the current version of the firmware. I don't think it's causing any trouble with MC but it's still wrong.
When running GetMediaInfo the URI's returned for current and next are funky:
fasthttp://199.242.131.131:52101/Music/F12222.mp3

The word fast is prepended onto the URI. Have you seen this before?

AndrewFG · « **Reply #42 on:** January 07, 2016, 12:04:15 pm »

Quote from: bob on January 07, 2016, 11:37:00 am

I found another bug in the current version of the firmware. I don't think it's causing any trouble with MC but it's still wrong.
When running GetMediaInfo the URI's returned for current and next are funky:
fasthttp://199.242.131.131:52101/Music/F12222.mp3

The word fast is prepended onto the URI. Have you seen this before?

Nope.

If you set a URI via SetAVTransportURI or SetNextAVTransportURI the renderer should reflect the same URI in GetMediaInfo, GetPositioniInfo etc.

It definitely looks like a bug to me.

INTERACT FORUM

Author Topic: Cambridge Cxn does not do gapless with MC controlling it (Read 27750 times)