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[maid]

I know I have tried to address this before but now I am using 21 I thought I would try to get a solution here.
I use RO standard HDMI Bitstream video clock ticked.
From one day to the next things change.
Yesterday all was playing well today everything is really jumpy 25f 23.97 both the same.
Rebooted computer and it was heaps better. could this be something in windows ?

[fitbrit]

Stop bitstreaming. Video clock can't work properly if you do, as far as I recall.

[maid]

we prefer bitstreaming..any other solution

[maid]

bump please

[fitbrit]

we prefer bitstreaming..any other solution

Learn to love jumpy media?

[gvanbrunt]

we prefer bitstreaming..any other solution

The experts here have said what you need to do, but you don't want to do that. Which is fine if you have a good reason. Perhaps if you filled everyone in on why you prefer bit streaming then they could help steer you in the right direction.

[maid]

We like bit streaming as we have a top of the range Onkyo which gives great sound.

[JimH]

It isn't any better than MC's audio engine.  You're not gaining anything. 

[maid]

If thats the case how do we set the equalizer ?
The Onkyo has set equalizer settings that are simple to jog through.
 I think JRiver you have to keep changing the wave for different sound.

[JimH]

Why do you need an equalizer?

[maid]

mmm good question.

Why is there an equalizer in JRiver ?

[RoderickGI]

Because some people hear different frequencies differently. Well, all people really. So audio can be adjusted to match their hearing, or preference.

I have similar lines of questioning to Jim. Why do you prefer the Onkyo?

Is it because you can select different effects like Concert Hall, Jazz Club, etc.? MC has that as well.
Is it because you have made adjustments to make the sound better from your seating position? MC has room correction.
Is it because you have made adjustments to certain frequency repsonses? MC has Equaliser (sliders) plus a Parametric Equaliser (filters).

Is it just because you are used to the Onkyo and how it works?

I'm not an expert in this area at all. My partner loves music and movies, but is deaf in one ear, so can't differentiate left/right/surround sound very well. For me, if it doesn't sound bad, then it must be fine. Though sometimes I do appreciate a particularly good piece of music or vocals. (I'm a terrible critic of the sound mixing used in all talent shows, like The X Factor currently showing. Why don't they turn up the volume on the singers microphone?! Half of them get totally drowned out by the music. How are we supposed to judge their singing if we can't hear it?! err. hmmm.)

I'm also still using a 1999 Sony Receiver, and so I'm forced to encode everything as Dolby Digital AC3, and send it via S/PDIF to the receiver for the best 5.1 sound possible. Therefore I do all sound processing in MC. That is one of the reasons I selected MC. It can do it all, and my receiver just needs to decode the audio and amplify it.

Back quite a few years ago now, when Bitstreaming was coming along and was the all new thing that everybody said was the best sound you can get, I thought I would upgrade all my audio equipment to models that supported Bitstreaming up to the DAC/Receiver. But I waited a while to see how it worked out, then I learned a bit more about it all. Then I waited. Then I got MC, and now I don't need Bitstreaming. When I upgrade my receiver, it may well be to much simpler receiver, that has very good DACs and Amplification sections, plus video pass through. I will just send multi-channel PCM via HDMI to the receiver to decode and amplify, plus pass video through to the TV. Or I may even use two HDMI outputs, one to the DAC+Amp/Receiver, and one directly to the TV, for an even simpler setup.

I don't know if turning off Bitstreaming would fix your Jump Media problem, but it may be worth a try. I don't generally get jumpy media, but do a little sometimes. However, I am only using an Intel HD4000 iGPU, which is far less powerful than your GTX 750 Ti, so I expect a lessor experience. When I do have issues with any media, I can usually put it down to the format in the media file, and hence what MC has to do to convert it to 1080p at 60Hz for the TV, particularly if the source file is interlaced recorded TV. I use WASAPI Exclusive Mode for audio.

Actually, for media files that are jumpy, how well do they play if you copy them over to your office PC and play them there? Are they okay then?

BTW, your Signature says you have an Onkyo TX-NR925, but your original post about it said it was an Onkyo TX-NR929.
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=83790.0
I think it is an Onkyo TX-NR929, as I can't find an Onkyo TX-NR925. That is a nice piece of equipment, with a lot of features. But you don't need to use Bitstreaming to use those features. Sending PCM to it (Output encoding set to "None" in the DSP Studio) will still allow any features on the Onkyo to be used. Effectively by Bitstreaming you are just moving all decoding from MC to the Onkyo, and losing functionality in MC.

Caveat: If I am wrong in any of the above, will the audio experts please correct me. I don't mind being corrected. 

[gvanbrunt]

Bitstreaming should make no difference if you want to use EQ or not. EQ happens after it is decoded on the receiver.

What kind of connection do you have to your receiver from your computer? Not just what you currently use, but what are your options?

[maid]

Thank for that.
Some of this is a little over my head but I will give it a go.
My husband is a little deaf in one ear so consequently always fiddling with the sound when listening to music.
That is the reason we bought the Onkyo as he could never get the sound right.
Sound is now awesome just like I said the lip sync on some media goes in and out.

Because some people hear different frequencies differently. Well, all people really. So audio can be adjusted to match their hearing, or preference.

I have similar lines of questioning to Jim. Why do you prefer the Onkyo?

Is it because you can select different effects like Concert Hall, Jazz Club, etc.? MC has that as well.
Is it because you have made adjustments to make the sound better from your seating position? MC has room correction.
Is it because you have made adjustments to certain frequency repsonses? MC has Equaliser (sliders) plus a Parametric Equaliser (filters).

Is it just because you are used to the Onkyo and how it works?

I'm not an expert in this area at all. My partner loves music and movies, but is deaf in one ear, so can't differentiate left/right/surround sound very well. For me, if it doesn't sound bad, then it must be fine. Though sometimes I do appreciate a particularly good piece of music or vocals. (I'm a terrible critic of the sound mixing used in all talent shows, like The X Factor currently showing. Why don't they turn up the volume on the singers microphone?! Half of them get totally drowned out by the music. How are we supposed to judge their singing if we can't hear it?! err. hmmm.)

I'm also still using a 1999 Sony Receiver, and so I'm forced to encode everything as Dolby Digital AC3, and send it via S/PDIF to the receiver for the best 5.1 sound possible. Therefore I do all sound processing in MC. That is one of the reasons I selected MC. It can do it all, and my receiver just needs to decode the audio and amplify it.

Back quite a few years ago now, when Bitstreaming was coming along and was the all new thing that everybody said was the best sound you can get, I thought I would upgrade all my audio equipment to models that supported Bitstreaming up to the DAC/Receiver. But I waited a while to see how it worked out, then I learned a bit more about it all. Then I waited. Then I got MC, and now I don't need Bitstreaming. When I upgrade my receiver, it may well be to much simpler receiver, that has very good DACs and Amplification sections, plus video pass through. I will just send multi-channel PCM via HDMI to the receiver to decode and amplify, plus pass video through to the TV. Or I may even use two HDMI outputs, one to the DAC+Amp/Receiver, and one directly to the TV, for an even simpler setup.

I don't know if turning off Bitstreaming would fix your Jump Media problem, but it may be worth a try. I don't generally get jumpy media, but do a little sometimes. However, I am only using an Intel HD4000 iGPU, which is far less powerful than your GTX 750 Ti, so I expect a lessor experience. When I do have issues with any media, I can usually put it down to the format in the media file, and hence what MC has to do to convert it to 1080p at 60Hz for the TV, particularly if the source file is interlaced recorded TV. I use WASAPI Exclusive Mode for audio.

Actually, for media files that are jumpy, how well do they play if you copy them over to your office PC and play them there? Are they okay then?

BTW, your Signature says you have an Onkyo TX-NR925, but your original post about it said it was an Onkyo TX-NR929.
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=83790.0
I think it is an Onkyo TX-NR929, as I can't find an Onkyo TX-NR925. That is a nice piece of equipment, with a lot of features. But you don't need to use Bitstreaming to use those features. Sending PCM to it (Output encoding set to "None" in the DSP Studio) will still allow any features on the Onkyo to be used. Effectively by Bitstreaming you are just moving all decoding from MC to the Onkyo, and losing functionality in MC.

Caveat: If I am wrong in any of the above, will the audio experts please correct me. I don't mind being corrected. 

[RoderickGI]

I don't get lip-sync going in and out. On some sources/media files I sometimes get a bit of drift in the sync, but it never comes back into sync unless I pause or stop playback and start it again. Usually that is time shifting live TV, in which case I try pause, and if that doesn't work, I record the program so I don't lose anything (I'm using JTV TV recording format, so the whole program is recorded from beginning to end, even if I hit record well after the start), then stop playback and restart.

The only time I get really bad lip-sync issues is when using web based catch-up TV, such as Yahoo7/Plus, with the WDM Driver. The WDM can be unusable with those streaming services, and I have to play directly from the web browser to my audio card.

I do use VideoClock, and it made a big difference with HD Australian TV, which is broadcast in 1440x1080 interlaced format.

Read through what I wrote a couple more times and I'm sure you will understand it all.

Oh, I confirmed that VideoClock doesn't work when Bitstreaming audio: http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/VideoClock

[maid]

are you bitstreaming ?

I don't get lip-sync going in and out. On some sources/media files I sometimes get a bit of drift in the sync, but it never comes back into sync unless I pause or stop playback and start it again. Usually that is time shifting live TV, in which case I try pause, and if that doesn't work, I record the program so I don't lose anything (I'm using JTV TV recording format, so the whole program is recorded from beginning to end, even if I hit record well after the start), then stop playback and restart.

The only time I get really bad lip-sync issues is when using web based catch-up TV, such as Yahoo7/Plus, with the WDM Driver. The WDM can be unusable with those streaming services, and I have to play directly from the web browser to my audio card.

I do use VideoClock, and it made a big difference with HD Australian TV, which is broadcast in 1440x1080 interlaced format.

Read through what I wrote a couple more times and I'm sure you will understand it all.

Oh, I confirmed that VideoClock doesn't work when Bitstreaming audio: http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/VideoClock

[gvanbrunt]

Here is the short version of bit streaming. I'm really simplifying here to get the point across so you understand what is going on. If you are bit streaming the computer basically sends the unaltered bits from the source directly to your amplifier. The problem is, if you are only sending the audio, and not the video signal through the receiver, the player (Media Center) CANNOT do corrections to the audio to make it match up with the video. Since the video is much more processor intensive, it can be more likely to "drift" than the audio does.

To further complicate things, if you do process the video in MC, then the more likely it becomes the audio may drift if you are bit streaming.

Bottom line is, usually there is not a good reason to bitstream unless you really know what you are doing and can work out issues yourself. Even then it often proves to be tedious and problematic. I would not recommend it.

If you answer my earlier question about what connections you have from your computer and the model of your receiver we may be able to help you set it up so you don't have issues, AND can use your eq.

[RoderickGI]

No. As I implied, I no longer believe in the holy grail of Bitstreaming. It just isn't required for my needs, with MC's capabilities.

I use DSP in MC to do Room Correction, down sample to 48KHz if required as that is all my receiver can handle, and then encode all audio to Dolby Digital AC3, as that is the best method I have to transfer audio to my old receiver.

You don't need to Bitstream in order to use the equaliser in the Onkyo. If you turn off Bitstreaming, MC will still send audio to the Onkyo in digital format. With VideoClock turned on, MC may adjust the audio a little to keep video and audio in sync, but it will still be digital, in the PCM format. You can then still use the Onkyo equaliser with the same settings you have now, and it should sound the same. I don't think you will hear any minor differences introduced, except audio may stay in sync with video.

Try turning Bitstreaming off.  Options/Audio/Settings/Bitstreaming: None. Then check the DSP & Output format meet your requirements. 

EDIT: Plus what Gvanbrunt says. 

[maid]

audio and video are sent from the computer to the Onkyo.
I have turned off bitstreaming for testing and so far ok with TV we have not tried a movie yet.
will test today to see if truehd works.

Here is the short version of bit streaming. I'm really simplifying here to get the point across so you understand what is going on. If you are bit streaming the computer basically sends the unaltered bits from the source directly to your amplifier. The problem is, if you are only sending the audio, and not the video signal through the receiver, the player (Media Center) CANNOT do corrections to the audio to make it match up with the video. Since the video is much more processor intensive, it can be more likely to "drift" than the audio does.

To further complicate things, if you do process the video in MC, then the more likely it becomes the audio may drift if you are bit streaming.

Bottom line is, usually there is not a good reason to bitstream unless you really know what you are doing and can work out issues yourself. Even then it often proves to be tedious and problematic. I would not recommend it.

If you answer my earlier question about what connections you have from your computer and the model of your receiver we may be able to help you set it up so you don't have issues, AND can use your eq.

[maid]

The more I research the more confused I get.
I have read to get DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby True HD Audio from my movies I must bitstream.
If this is the case do I turn of video clock???
when testing how can i see if its playing HD?

[RoderickGI]

I assume that by "get" DTS-HD Master Audio, you mean for DTS-HD Master Audio to show up on the display of the Onkyo. After all, if you play a video which has a DTS-HD Master Audio track, and you select that track, and you hear sound, then you are getting DTS-HD Master Audio.

It is very simple really.

If you Bitstream DTS-HD Master Audio to the Onkyo via HDMI, then "DTS-HD Master Audio" will show up on the display of the Onkyo. Then the Onkyo will decode that compressed digital format to an uncompressed digital PCM stream, which the DAC inside will then convert to an analogue steam, which will be amplified and passed out to your analogue speakers.

If you turn off Bitstreaming, MC will decode the compressed digital format to exactly the same uncompressed digital PCM stream, which it will send to the receiver via HDMI. The Onkyo won't show "DTS-HD Master Audio" on its front panel, because it is receiving the uncompressed digital PCM stream, not the compressed (encoded) DTS-HD Master Audio stream. The DAC inside the Onkyo will then convert that digital PCM stream to an analogue steam, which will be amplified and passed out to your analogue speakers.

If you Bitstream, you lose the video clock and other functionality in MC. But you get to see "DTS-HD Master Audio" on the front panel of the Onkyo.

If you don't Bitstream, you get the full functionality of MC, plus you can do any digital manipulation in the Onkyo you want to do. But you don't get to see "DTS-HD Master Audio" on the front panel of the Onkyo.

Either way, the DTS-HD Master Audio is decoded to exactly the same digital PCM stream, and the Onkyo does the Digital to Analogue conversion and amplification.

Leave the Video Clock turned on, and Bitstreaming turned off.
Listen to the sound to test if you are receiving HD sound. Also, check which audio track MC is playing.

[maid]

I think I am getting it, sorry to be such a pain.
I read that Bitsteaming gives much better sound just wondered if we were losing something.
To see what sound is playing do I right click on the movie.

[RoderickGI]

Correct. Right click on the movie while it is playing or paused, then select Streams and you will see the video format at the top section of the popup, and all the available audio formats in the file in the bottom section. You can select which ever audio stream you want to use. The current one will be ticked.
You can also right click on the movie and select Player/Audio Path, to see the input audio format being used, and what MC is doing to the audio, such as adjustments for volume levelling, room correction, and so on, including a Video Clock adjustment to the tempo, if required.

Alternately, press the up arrow while playing the movie until you see the Language heading, and all the audio formats available in the file will be listed, with the current one underlined.

Bitstreaming doesn't give better sound when you are using MC, connected via HDMI to a receiver such as your Onkyo. That may be controversial, but nevertheless it is correct, since MC can decode supported formats as well as any receiver, and the sound sent to your Onkyo is still bit perfect digital audio, but with whatever adjustments you have told MC to make to it.

As I said above, I used to believe that Bitstreaming provided the best audio quality. But I don't any more. Even if there is a very slight difference, as some people will argue, as one of my bosses used to say; "Perfect is the enemy of good". The benefits you gain through not using Bitstreaming in MC outweigh any perceived disadvantage.

[gvanbrunt]

As I said above, I used to believe that Bitstreaming provided the best audio quality. But I don't any more.

I'm also in that camp. Did lots of research and came to same conclusion: That light on receiver means nothing.

The advantage of HD Audio is that the COMPRESSED audio stored on the Blu-ray is "better" than other formats and is a more accurate representation of the original audio. This is because there is some loss of fidelity with most compressed formats. With HD Audio it is supposed to be lossless compression. At some point it is converted to UNCOMPRESSED PCM. That pcm stream is the same if done by the receiver or by MC. So having that light on doesn't mean better sound than uncompressed from MC.

[fitbrit]

We've been through this before:

I have the higher end 5010 and 3010 models and also one 717.

When you use bitstreaming, the Onkyo decodes the audio, like you said. And then it sends the various sounds to the 5.1 speakers.
When you don't use bitstreaming in MC, the LAV filters decode the audio, and via HDMI send the direct sounds to your Onkyo. The Onkyo receives the decoded audio and sends the correct signals to the 5.1 speakers. It should sound the same, quality wise. However, when you use JRSS in MC, it produces better surround effects than the standard ones provided by Onkyo or most other receiver manufacturers. This is in my opinion, and those of many others in these forums. What JRSS can do is to take a stereo signal and upmix it to 5.1, creating a fake surround effect, which is really good. The Onkyo can do this too, but the Dolby and DTS algorithms it uses are not as good as MC's JRSS - again, in my opinion. JRSS can also downmix audio from 6.1. and 7.1 sources to 5.1 too. So can the receiver, but again, I think JRSS is better.
In order to not have the Onkyo process the decoded signal coming from JRSS a second time, I recommend you put it into DIRECT mode. When you do that, the Onkyo accepts the signal from MC as-is and doesn't mess with it.


Another advantage of NOT bitstreaming is that you can then use MC's video clock that keeps the audio and video in sync and avoids stuttering/judder.

[maid]

Thanks RoderickGI you have been awesome and so have the others that are trying to teach me. We are now not using Bitstreaming and hopefully all will be well.

Correct. Right click on the movie while it is playing or paused, then select Streams and you will see the video format at the top section of the popup, and all the available audio formats in the file in the bottom section. You can select which ever audio stream you want to use. The current one will be ticked.
You can also right click on the movie and select Player/Audio Path, to see the input audio format being used, and what MC is doing to the audio, such as adjustments for volume levelling, room correction, and so on, including a Video Clock adjustment to the tempo, if required.

Alternately, press the up arrow while playing the movie until you see the Language heading, and all the audio formats available in the file will be listed, with the current one underlined.

Bitstreaming doesn't give better sound when you are using MC, connected via HDMI to a receiver such as your Onkyo. That may be controversial, but nevertheless it is correct, since MC can decode supported formats as well as any receiver, and the sound sent to your Onkyo is still bit perfect digital audio, but with whatever adjustments you have told MC to make to it.

As I said above, I used to believe that Bitstreaming provided the best audio quality. But I don't any more. Even if there is a very slight difference, as some people will argue, as one of my bosses used to say; "Perfect is the enemy of good". The benefits you gain through not using Bitstreaming in MC outweigh any perceived disadvantage.

[maid]

Well finally updated my system.
Checking system setting.
I am now using ROHQ no Bitstreaming video clock and hardware accelerate on
I still cant use auto display changing as the 25fps go funny like into a small window and is all fuzzy.
Consequently I am still getting twitching on some media.
Can i use some Madvr settings?
Also I have noticed that windows sound keeps defaulting back to stereo not 5.1

[fitbrit]

Maid, do you have Skype?
I am no longer working a full time job, and I could give you some help next week. My part time job is actually helping people set up MC using phone/Skype and also remote desktop software. Now, I think your MC settings are only part of the problem - there may be settings on the Onkyo that need to be adjusted too.

[maid]

Yes I do have skype.
I have just done some Madvr settings as per http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=100471.0
If I dont have any success with this I may take you up on the offer.
I do think that most of the problems are fixed it is just that somethings play great for a while and then the have this weird twitching for a second then ok again.

[maid]

arrggg audio out of sync certain files.
played three 25fps mp4 all perfect exept xfactor which is badly out.
Can one file be fixed in jriver to play in sync?

[maid]

I have done the Madvr settings but still getting jerking on 23.98fps shows.
Tried putting in the 1080p24 1080p50 1080p60 but then when i play 25fps the screen goes small and looks all blury.
I am about to put settings in windows security essentials.
any other suggestions as this is becoming impossible to fix