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[jesseinsf]

First thing is first: I love JRiver Media Center. 2nd: When I see a bug (whether it be a Windows issue or JRiver's issue), I will fight until it is resolved. I don't know coding but I am willing to provide feedback or any log file request it takes to result any issue that is needed.

That being said....I may sound like a broken record but in Windows 10 from now all the way back since the preview versions my explorer.exe freezes when using jriver. But with my recent incident Explorer.exe would not restart and as always the Start menu hesitates to open (if it even does). I've reformatted my computer many times since then with no success to resolving this issue. I have reported this bug in these forums 2 to 3 time and on the Windows feedback many times. I also reported this bug in the NVidia forums a few times. All this bug reporting got me nothing. Maybe it's hardware specific. If so, I will provide my recent hardware that I am using now.

See attached Cpu-z file and GPUz file.

[JimH]

By Explorer, do you mean Internet Explorer or the Windows file manager?

This is likely to be related to a third piece of software on your machine.  Antivirus software, for example, or a driver.

Does it happen with just plain vanilla Windows?

[mwillems]

The start menu/button issue is a windows 10 issue in general not an MC issue.  I see it on every win 10 machine I've interacted with sooner or later (it takes a while to manifest after boot).  It's not limited to nvidia hardware (although that seems to make it manifest faster).

Not sure about the explorer issue.

[Awesome Donkey]

Yeah, it's a general Windows 10 Start Menu issue that I run into every few days. They're supposed to push out a new build of Windows 10 next month (if all goes to plan) so hopefully the Start Menu issues will be finally sorted.

[jesseinsf]

By Explorer, do you mean Internet Explorer or the Windows file manager?

This is likely to be related to a third piece of software on your machine.  Antivirus software, for example, or a driver.

Does it happen with just plain vanilla Windows?

It's Windows Explorer (File manager) and I have no antivirus but Windows Defender. My NVidia drivers are also up to date. I'm using the GeForce 960 card with 4GB of dedicated memory. And yes it happens with a fresh windows install (Vanilla Windows).... nothing else installed accept Windows updates and the latest driver updates. The reason why I say Windows Explorer is because if I restart it in task manager it would usually fix the issue.

[JimH]

Turn off Windows Defender to see if it still happens.

[Awesome Donkey]

No Windows Explorer issues here on Windows 10 with and without Media Center 21 running.

[guitarhead]

I'm having the same problem. Only happens when I use JRiver Media Center.

[JimH]

What is your antivirus program?  Could you try disabling it?

[guitarhead]

What is your antivirus program?  Could you try disabling it?

I am using Webroot. I just disabled it. I have to use Media Center for a while before it freezes Explorer. I'll report back and let you know what happens,

[guitarhead]

I am using Webroot. I just disabled it. I have to use Media Center for a while before it freezes Explorer. I'll report back and let you know what happens,

That worked. When I disabled Webroot I no longer have the issue. So now what do I do? I don't really want to turn my virus protection off every time I want to listen to music in Media Center. This never happened with windows 8 or 7. It only happens when I use JRiver Media Center 20. Do I need to upgrade to Media Center 21?

[jesseinsf]

That worked. When I disabled Webroot I no longer have the issue. So now what do I do? I don't really want to turn my virus protection off every time I want to listen to music in Media Center. This never happened with windows 8 or 7. It only happens when I use JRiver Media Center 20. Do I need to upgrade to Media Center 21?

I'm using Vanilla Windows and it happens. It has nothing to do with Webroot, though Webroot could accelerate the issue.

[JimH]

That worked. When I disabled Webroot I no longer have the issue. So now what do I do? I don't really want to turn my virus protection off every time I want to listen to music in Media Center. This never happened with windows 8 or 7. It only happens when I use JRiver Media Center 20. Do I need to upgrade to Media Center 21?

It's not a problem with MC.  It's a problem with your antivirus.  Please contact them for help.

[JimH]

I'm using Vanilla Windows and it happens. It has nothing to do with Webroot, though Webroot could accelerate the issue.

Did you try turning off Windows Defender, as I suggested?

Or this?
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Taming_Windows_Defender

[jesseinsf]

Did you try turning off Windows Defender, as I suggested?

Or this?
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Taming_Windows_Defender

I did as you asked and turned off Windows defender completely and it still happened. Resetting Windows file manager (Explorer.exe) through task manger fixes it until I started MC again.

[JimH]

I'm sorry.  I don't know.  I don't think this is an MC problem:

in Windows 10 from now all the way back since the preview versions my explorer.exe freezes when using jriver. But with my recent incident Explorer.exe would not restart and as always the Start menu hesitates to open (if it even does).

If it is a Windows 10 problem, it should be fixed in a future release of Windows 10.

[guitarhead]

It's not a problem with MC.  It's a problem with your antivirus.  Please contact them for help.

Why does it only happen when I'm using JRiver Media Center. I just tried it with itunes and the problem did not occur. It seems like Media Center is part of the problem.

[mwillems]

Why does it only happen when I'm using JRiver Media Center. I just tried it with itunes and the problem did not occur. It seems like Media Center is part of the problem.

My experience has been that any program that uses non-standard window decorations or full-screen exclusive mode is "part of the problem."  I get the start button freeze issue after running the steam client or playing video games on machines where JRiver isn't even installed, and with several other prorams too.

The start button issue is well documented around the web, see http://www.thewindowsclub.com/start-menu-does-not-open-windows-10.  A search for "Windows 10 start button not working" gives 69 million hits, and if you look through the first page none of them mention JRiver.  Here's a long thread looking at the issue (it looks like antivirus can also cause/contribute to it): https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/3fvar4/start_button_not_working_windows_10/

The best guess I've seen is that it's an issue with how windows handles overlays (probably), but it's nothing to do with JRiver.

[RoderickGI]

Looks like I will be delaying my upgrade to Windows 10 a little longer.

Very helpful post MWillems. Some of the comments on those pages highlight that restarting Windows Explorer fixes the problem, at least temporarily. Not a MC problem based on those comments.

[jesseinsf]

I'm now using the latest Insiders Build 10565 that came out 2 to 3 days ago and they didn't fix this issue. More people need to complain in the feedback app for Windows 10.

[ssands]

I've had a bunch of problems related with Win 10, most likely because Dell will not provide updated drivers for a 3 year old laptop (and they will not be getting my money again).

What helped was going through EVERY device in Device manager, right-clicking, and selecting "Update Driver". And then doing it again a week later, etc. (I had a pesky bluetooth problem that was fixed that way).

I expect that many/most component manufacturers will address Win 10 issues via drivers and we will see increased stability over the next few months. (at least I hope so).

Also, I was having problems with MC hanging on close. I tried lots of things, including a re-install, but what finally seems to have fixed it (fingers crossed) was a complete wipe of MC and clean re-install. By complete wipe, I mean that I deleted (actually renamed) all MC directories in "Programs (x86)" and Users/.../appdata.

It now seems to work well, and the only clean up I need to do is restore cover art for my ROIRs (recordings of independent origin).

Good luck!

[Spike1000]

The start button issue is well documented around the web, see http://www.thewindowsclub.com/start-menu-does-not-open-windows-10.

Option 4 in the above link:

4] Open an elevated PowerShell window type the following and press Enter:

Code: [Select]

Get-AppXPackage -AllUsers | Foreach {Add-AppxPackage -DisableDevelopmentMode -Register "$($_.InstallLocation)\AppXManifest.xml"}
Seems to have fixed my issue with the Start button failing to do anything on my Windows 10 MC after a random(?) (a number of days at least) period of time. It was the only option I tried to fix it.

Spike

[jesseinsf]

Just an update. I had JRiver open all day at home while I went in to work. This is without playing music or videos. Start menu works normally. It only happens when I play a song in exclusive mode or video full screen. I guess video utilizes exclusive mode also.

[Spike1000]

Option 4 in the above link:

4] Open an elevated PowerShell window type the following and press Enter:

Code: [Select]

Get-AppXPackage -AllUsers | Foreach {Add-AppxPackage -DisableDevelopmentMode -Register "$($_.InstallLocation)\AppXManifest.xml"}
Seems to have fixed my issue with the Start button failing to do anything on my Windows 10 MC after a random(?) (a number of days at least) period of time. It was the only option I tried to fix it.

Spoke too soon. My start button stopped working again this morning 

Spike

[Zaronn]

Hi. I also have experienced this issue. It's been a pain to figure out. At first I thought this was some sort of an driver or corrupt Windows/Windows update issue. And I did fresh Windows 10 installs several times. The same thing happend again and again. The Start Menu stopped working (restart Windows Explorer helps btw to get it back). After last fresh Windows 10 install, I determined to install one by one driver, and one by one program and test carefully after everyone to see when the Start Menu start bugging. And voila, it happend only when JRiver was installed and used (latest version, v21.0.23). The Start Menu stops working only when JRiver is running (listening to music for example). It can happen after a few minutes, or it can happen after hours. Thats randomly. Either it's Windows 10 or JRiver that's causing it, I don't know. But it's 100% for sure, that when JRiver is running, the Start Menu freezes sooner or later.

Now I have been using Fobar2000 for several days, and I have no problem at all with the Start Menu. I tried JRiver again, and after couple of hours, the Start Menu start bugging again.

Have developers investigated this issue? There is defently something that is'nt right. I hope you can figure it out. I can't use JRiver as it is right now.

Thank you in advance.

[CountryBumkin]

If everyone running MC and Win10 had this problem it would probably be easy to pinpoint and fix.

But when only a handful of people have this problem (I see it on my Laptop, but not my other computers) it means, IMO, that the problem is a combination of Win10, MC, and "something else" (a driver, program, anti-virus, etc.) that is unique to the User's computer.
And that "something else" is the hard part to find.

Maybe those of you that have this issue can post a list of your hardware and software to see if you all have a common item/device (other than Win10 and MC). Like is this only affecting Users with NVidia cards?

PS. My laptop (Dell Latitude E6400) has an NVidia graphics chip (Quadro NVS 160 with driver 341.81).

[Frobozz]

I have two computers running Windows 10. Both are affected by this.

One is a Toshiba Satellite S55T-B5152 laptop
Intel i5 5200U
Upgraded to 16GB RAM and a Crucial SSD
15" display at 1920x1080
Windows 10 Home

One is an HP ENVY x360 Convertible 15"
Intel i7 5500U with Nvidia GeForce 930M
16GB RAM and a Crucial SSD
15" display at 1920x1080
Windows 10 Pro

Both came with Windows 8.1
Upgraded to Windows 10 when Windows 10 was released
Upgraded by doing a factory recovery install of Windows 8.1 on the SSD, Running Windows Update to get them all up to date, then doing an upgrade install to Windows 10

Wondering what to do to get at least one of them to behave with JRiver Media Center.
Thinking of rolling the Toshiba back to Windows 8.1 until this is fixed
Or maybe trying a clean install of the November update version of Windows 10 on it

Both laptops have 15" 1920x1080 displays. Default for them is to run at 125% scaling. I've tried running at 100% scaling and still got the Start Menu, Action Center, Explorer crashing problems.

I have a third computer still on Windows 8.1. It's the computer I've been using for JRiver Media Center. I would like to be able to run MC on the two new laptops, but with this Explorer crashing problem it's not a good experience.

My music files are on a NAS. Not sure if that's an issue. I haven't tried running MC with only local files to see if that is a factor.

[JimH]

This is probably a Windows problem and not MC.

You could try turning off "Shell Integration" in MC.

[Frobozz]

This is probably a Windows problem and not MC.

You could try turning off "Shell Integration" in MC.

It is a Windows problem. It's just that running MC seems to trigger it.
The various Windows help forums have other people with the same problem with the Start Menu not displaying or the Action Center not displaying. Reports going all the way back to pre-release builds of Windows 10. And it's still a problem after the November update. Those people aren't running MC so it's obviously a Windows problem.

I do have shell integration disabled in MC and PMW.

I'll keep playing around to try to figure out how to fix this.

I'm going to try running PMW today as a test and see if the Start Menu problem gets triggered.

I don't know how to trigger the problem other than letting MC play music for several hours.

I'm not running any additional security software other than Windows Defender.

[Frobozz]

Some observations from dealing with this.

To get the Start Menu back do the following:
Launch Task Manager and get the Task Manager windows displayed on the desktop
CTRL + SHIFT + right-click anywhere in the taskbar
That brings up a pop-up menu with "Exit Explorer" at the bottom
Exit Explorer
In Task Manger go File >> Run new task, and run "explorer.exe" to relaunch the Start Menu and desktop


One observation is that this problem seem to happen more regularly when playing long tracks. Like classical where tracks can be 20 minutes or longer. My suspicion is that Windows sees the long period of inactivity as idle time and runs some background maintenance while the music is playing. Maybe it's a race condition with one of the background maintenance tasks that is causing this? I have no idea. Just a hunch. After a Start Menu crash I can go to Control Panel >> Security and Maintenance and see that automatic maintenance was run recently before the Start Menu crash while MC was playing.

If this is affected by a background maintenance task is there a way for MC to tell Windows that while it's actively playing music that it's not idle time to do maintenance?

I'm playing to USB DACs using WASAPI exclusive. I haven't tried any other playback methods.

[jesseinsf]

I've been testing this issue since the last time I posted and everything seems to get a bit better after couple of weeks from the Windows 10 November update. The good thing is I only have to click "Start" once after each time I use Audio or Video "Exclusive Mode" when playing a media file in JRiver. What I'm saying is The Start menu hesitates to show on fist click after each time I play a file that utilizes "Exclusive Mode". You have to play the files for some time before you see this. Easiest way to get these results is to watch a movie, then when the movie has ended and stops....this is when you click the start button.

[jesseinsf]

This is probably a Windows problem and not MC.

You could try turning off "Shell Integration" in MC.

Hi Jim,

My last comment in this thread stated that this issue was a lot better but, I spoke to soon. Yes it seemed a bit better for just audio playback. Now I've noticed that I cannot open the Start menu after each time I would play a movie. I literally have to restart my PC to get it to work again. I've reported this bug through the Windows Insiders feedback app and it's been almost 6 months. Are you guys sure it's Microsoft's issue? Have you guys been working with Microsoft to help fix this issue in Windows 10?

[glynor]

For what it's worth, I have 9 Windows 10 boxes now here and at work, including my assorted VMs. They are a mix of AMD and nvidia hardware (and VMs of course), and only 4 of those even have MC installed on them.

* I see the Start button issue on all of them (whether they have MC installed or not). Some do it more frequently than others. My VMs are actually the best behaved, oddly enough.

* I see less frequent, but still more-common-than-pre-10 issues with explorer.exe freezing (while browsing the filesystem, etc). I have found that in these instances, however, that it has always been pretty good at dealing with restarting the shell through Process Explorer or Task Manager without freaking out than Windows 7 or Windows 8 was when that needed to be done. But it does seem to happen more frequently with Windows 10 than it did with 8.1 at least. This, again, applies to all of them.

[jesseinsf]

I see, but it is such an inconvenience. Things should just work or at least be fix in a timely manner. Now I'm just wondering if developers are working with Microsoft to resolve this issue. To me, it's such a deal breaker. 

[mwillems]

* I see the Start button issue on all of them (whether they have MC installed or not). Some do it more frequently than others. My VMs are actually the best behaved, oddly enough.

Agreed on both counts. I see the issue on windows 10 installs where there's no MC at all, and windows seems to be better behaved in a VM than bare metal.  That latter observation is sort of a cruel irony as it seems to be true not only with respect to the start menu, windows is just flat out more stable for me when virtualized, which suggests it might be hardware/driver related in some way.

I'm currently typing on a Microsoft Surface Pro 4: my start menu is currently deadlocked (with no involvement from MC whatsoever, I think it was a video game that did it).  On their own hardware Microsoft can't prevent this issue from happening.  Maybe we should all only run windows virtualized   

[glynor]

and windows seems to be better behaved in a VM than bare metal.  That latter observation is sort of a cruel irony as it seems to be true not only with respect to the start menu, windows is just flat out more stable for me when virtualized, which suggests it might be hardware/driver related in some way.

Completely agree. I went through the entire Windows 10 Insider Build process with installs in VMs and honestly had very few troubles. Now, I wasn't using those as my "daily drivers", of course, so you don't get the full in-depth view of the situation, but I did test them regularly when new builds came out, and the quality generally was pretty good (or could be chalked up to constantly shifting beta bug issues).

And then, post-release, I installed it on my main "everyday" work VM on my laptop and used that for the past couple months. That I do use basically every day for real work, and it has been (and continues to be) fine.

Since installing it on five "real" machines in the past month, I've seen way more problems on those. That's wacky-counter to all expectations. It's weird.

On their own hardware Microsoft can't prevent this issue from happening.  Maybe we should all only run windows virtualized  

Maybe if they hadn't, you know, canned more than half of their QA department a few months before the product shipped.

That said, I'm generally happy with Windows 10. I like many things about it better enough than Windows 8.1 and Windows 7 to not seriously consider going back to previous versions on anything. The Start button problem is probably the most pernicious issue I've encountered, but it's minor to fix it (and usually doesn't even require rebooting) so... Meh.

It's buggier than I'm used to from them, but overall it's fine.

[terrym@tassie]

I've got this problem on my Windows10 htpc, basically any fullscreen video longer than 30 minutes or using TheaterView and then playing audio triggers it.
If MC just sits there importing or playing audio from the standard window it seems fine.
I've installed Classic Shell so I can at least still control the machine once it has happened.
I find logging out and back in or restarting the Explorer Process fixes it .
It is a *?*! nuisance though and if it wasn't for the fact that Windows10 has greatly improved latency for using the WDM driver I would ditch it and go back to Win7.

Microsoft should be ashamed of themselves releasing an OS in this day and age where a fundamental part of it (the controlling Start menu) goes awol on a regular basis.
My concern is that inexperienced users will blame JRiver rather than Microsoft as it happens with MC installed rather more than when it isn't.

BTW this isn't an upgrade it is a clean install of Windows10.

[TheGreatBiguini]

Just wanted to add two observations. I too am experiencing this problem on one machine that runs JRiver 21; the other seems fine.

I would be cautious about the fix which was suggested above involving reinstalling the Win 10 apps - my experience has been that this process does not always work correctly and you may be left with a bunch of mis-installed non-working apps.

Also, I have found on my one problematic machine that installing Windows Classic Shell is an excellent workaround - Win 10's own start menu still goes belly-up after a while, but the Classic Shell start menu keeps working. Which gives me all I need until Microsoft manages to fix the issue.

[amsco15]

For what it's worth, I now believe the Win 10 problem discussed within this thread is, at a minimum, initiated by JRiver.  I recently purchased a new top of the line computer to replace an aging Dell Inspiron laptop.  The laptop was purchased from Dell as a Win XP machine and upgraded to Win 7 then Win 10.  I thought the Win 10 start, explorer and action center problem was due to a problematic Win 10 install on the laptop (I had several significant Win 10 issues with the machine).

The new desktop is a 100% clean install.  I've been working on installing and upgrading the new desktop all week.  The last program that I installed was JRiver.  I had zero problems all week with Win 10 start, explorer, and action center: before installing and using JRiver.  Yesterday, I installed JRiver (the install was a piece of cake following the directions on the support site).  Everything was fine until I played music, for an extended time, over my DLNA device (PS Audio DS).  I went back to my desktop to discover that the start menu, search window and action center were frozen: exact same experience with the laptop.  

It can be said that this is a Win 10 problem but I've experience the problem on two separate machines.  Further, this problem only occurs when JRiver is loaded and I play music over DLNA for an extended time (don't know the minimum time).  Note, playing music over DLNA is 99.9% of my JRiver use (I'll play music directly to my desktop speakers on short, rare occasions).

- JRiver 21.0.23
- Win 10 64
- i7 6700k
- Intel Native Video (no Nvidia card or drivers yet)
- Gigabyte GA-7170X-Gaming 7 mob
- Samsung 950 Pro M.2 SSD
- 16Gb DDR4 3000Mhz memory
- All music files stored on Western Digital Black 1.5TB Hard Drive (mounted internally and connected to mob SATA bus) in FLAC
- I have followed all recommendations to "tame" Windows Defender: Windows Defender is the only anti-virus program installed

Dale

 

[JimH]

Maybe you missed what glynor said above.

For what it's worth, I have 9 Windows 10 boxes now here and at work, including my assorted VMs. They are a mix of AMD and nvidia hardware (and VMs of course), and only 4 of those even have MC installed on them.

* I see the Start button issue on all of them (whether they have MC installed or not). Some do it more frequently than others. My VMs are actually the best behaved, oddly enough.

* I see less frequent, but still more-common-than-pre-10 issues with explorer.exe freezing (while browsing the filesystem, etc). I have found that in these instances, however, that it has always been pretty good at dealing with restarting the shell through Process Explorer or Task Manager without freaking out than Windows 7 or Windows 8 was when that needed to be done. But it does seem to happen more frequently with Windows 10 than it did with 8.1 at least. This, again, applies to all of them.

[amsco15]

Thanks for the response.  No I read it and understood.  I don't experience the problem (ever - on either machine) until music is played using JRiver for an extended period of time.  Maybe others, including glynor, experience this problem in other instances; however, I don't.  

I don't claim to be anywhere near as experienced as yourself or others who regularly post here.  I'm just stating my observations.

P.S.

I promise to stop belaboring the point after this addendum to my post.  After a long session of playing music through JRiver last Saturday evening, my computer exhibited the problem of a stuck start button, search, and action center.  A simple sign out, sign in process brings everything back.  All Sunday long working on the machine (with JRiver loaded but not playing anything) everything was fine.  Played music on Sunday evening: came back to my computer to discover a stuck start button, search, and action center.

Finally, my Win 10 machine at work, with lots of engineering software loaded, never exhibits a stuck start button, search or action center.  I only reboot or shut the machine off when updating software.

[ssands]

Probably a hassle but if you could install a virtual machine with windows 10 and run media center on that it would be interesting to observe if there were problems.

[JimH]

I believe glynor said above that it's better, but still a problem on a virtual machine.

[glynor]

From reading around, this looks like it can occur any time you are running any application that uses "non-standard" window "forms", which includes MC and lots of other applications (Steam seems to also be a common culprit).

That's pretty clearly a bug in Microsoft's code. I don't think there is anything JRiver can do but hope they fix the bug.

[Arindelle]

A simple sign out, sign in process brings everything back.

this has been said before above and in other posts but just putting it out there.

Right click on the start button or anywhere on the task bar=>Task Manager=>Right click on Windows Explorer and choose restart (to reload explorer). Start button works. No need to reboot.

PS - This is definitely not just an issue with JRiver. I have a bunch of programs (eg. Adobe CS -- creative suite for Windows) that can stick the start button. Anytime I stream avi or mkv videos from both Chrome and firefox (other than YouTube), it will also make the start button unresponsive. Definitely a fix from the MS side is required, not from other software designers.

[CountryBumkin]

There are some Win10 shortcuts that may help you get you where you want to be without a working "Start Button"

• Windows Key + X = brings up the start button "right click menu"
• Windows Key + E  = opens Windows File Explorer
• Windows Key + i  = opens Settings
• Windows key + S = opens Search (then any keyboard "letter" will bring up the App starting with that letter)

Most everything you would need the Start Button for can be accessed without it.

[amsco15]

I appreciate all the responses.  The last time I tried ending Windows Explorer (as described above), JRiver crashed and put up a message about being improperly shut down.  I therefore just signed out and back in to my user account.  I'll try "restarting" Windows Explorer through the Task Manager next time.

Also, with my older laptop, when the start button locked up, it also seemed like CPU intensive processes slowed down (i.e. on-line videos, etc.).  Think Windows Explorer, under this condition, utilizes a high than normal percentage of CPU capacity.

Thanks again, Dale

[glynor]

Right click on the start button or anywhere on the task bar=>Task Manager=>Right click on Windows Explorer and choose restart (to reload explorer). Start button works. No need to reboot.

Yep. That's the way to fix it.

The last time I tried ending Windows Explorer (as described above)

You can't end-task on Windows Explorer. That is the entire Windows shell (everything you see and click on in the UI of Windows itself). Without that, you can't do much (unless you happened to have a PowerShell or CMD window open at the time).

PS - This is definitely not just an issue with JRiver. I have a bunch of programs (eg. Adobe CS -- creative suite for Windows) that can stick the start button.

Yeah. CS5 does it for me on my systems too (way more reliably than anything else, actually).

[zeusl]

I just want to add me to the list of users who have the same problem.
I have 3 win10 machines and all have the same problem, only when the MC has been running for a while.
It has not helped by turning off the shell integration.

[joa_mb190]

Hello!

I also have same problem with start-menu on 6 computers, windows 10 and MC21
I have also installed windows 10 without MC and I can't say that i have that problem on them.

I run both music and video in MC

//jonas