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[JimH]

In a couple of weeks, we will launch a Kickstarter campaign to help fund our development of an enhanced television package called JRiver TV Plus.  It will be an add-on package with a price of $39.98 and will be discounted during the campaign.  This will allow MC to replace Windows Media Center with an equivalent or better feature set.

The price will include a year's subscription to the enhanced EPG.

If you're not familiar with Kickstarter, they are a web site devoted to "crowd funding".  In some ways, it's a little like going to the racetrack and betting.  You can "back" any project you like.  Often you're buying a product before it exists.  As you might imagine, it doesn't always work out.

This new TV package will add two important features:

1.  Ability to play encrypted (copy once) content from cable companies, similar to what Windows Media Center once did.

2.  An upgraded EPG (Electronic Program Guide).  We're aiming at broad geographical coverage.  This will probably be Gracenote or Rovi.

Both of these require significant development and expensive licenses.  That's why the enhancement will be an add-on package.

A current version of JRiver Media Center will also be required to use this.

I can't promise that we will be able to fulfill everyone's wishes for the perfect TV software, but I do promise that we will do our very best to make it happen, and if you decide to pitch in, you'll have the satisfaction of knowing that you're doing something very meaningful to advance JRiver's development in this direction.

Thank you!

[mwillems]

Well count me in    The lack of 1) is the main reason we're not paying for HBO right now (we'd like it, but not enough to use a cable box).  

Do you have any sense of how you'll deal with the DRM issues or is it too soon to say?

[KingSparta]

interesting...

[JimH]

Well count me in    The lack of 1) is the main reason we're not paying for HBO right now (we'd like it, but not enough to use a cable box).  

Do you have any sense of how you'll deal with the DRM issues or is it too soon to say?

Thanks.  We're now .029% of the way to our goal.

We'll add support for Microsoft's Playready DRM.

[mattkhan]

can I assume this is US only?

[RoderickGI]

Can I assume that you will expand on what #2 includes before the campaign starts?

Will the EPG just cover USA and Canada? Europe? Australia? The world?

Who will be the provider of the EPG data? By region?

Will this be a "set and forget" EPG that just works from now on?

Will there be an annual subscription fee, or just a once off purchase and then normal upgrade costs?

What sort of data will be provided in the EPG? Not just program names and episode names, but Season and Episode numbers, Repeat Flags, Genres, etc.? i.e.

Will you consider using methods to monitor program start and end times, and adjust recordings so that much less padding is required with recordings? The two methods I am aware of are the OTA CRID data and the OTA "Now and Next" data broadcasters provide in many regions. These methods could also be used to capture last minute programming changes that broadcasters often make in Australia, and probably elsewhere.

What about additional media such as provided by both Gracenote and Rovi, including program images, trailers, Actor information popups, etc.? (Rather than just relying on TheTVDB which is sometimes not set up when a new show starts, while Gracenote and Rovi seem to have it all before the show is aired.)

Do you plan to go further with remote setting of timers, recording rules, and viewing of the Guide via Apps?
Are you going to enhance the Guide in MC itself? i.e. A "Now" line on screen, some backward visibility of the EPG data, highlighting of program genres with colours, improved navigation, etc.?


I can't use #1 at all, but similar clarification of coverage, type, ongoing costs etc. would help people make a commitment.
I guess I would like to understand if the functionality will be provided as one package though, or if we could contribute to "JRiver TV Plus", or "JRiver TV Plus with DRM decryption".

I look forward to hearing more about it.

[JimH]

The EPG will probably come from either Gracenote or Rovi.  Australia may be part of that, but it's too soon to say.

We will probably also enhance the metadata that is available in the feed.

Please appreciate that whatever we can raise will be spread among our many friends, but the TV world is complicated enough that it's hard to make many absolute statements.

[JimH]

Will there be an annual subscription fee, or just a once off purchase and then normal upgrade costs?

MC will continue to have a basic level of TV support similar to what is in the current product.  So upgrading MC might be enough for some users.

The TV Plus package will be a separate license and a separate upgrade.

Hopefully, that will let you decide whether the new TV work each year is worth your support.

[JimH]

can I assume this is US only?

It's not our goal.  We will hire another developer, so we'll be able to move faster.

[glynor]

Well, I'm definitely in, though I'm not really interested in the DRM-infected solutions. I assume we'll be able to continue using STB-style setups with it, sans DRM (that would only apply to CableCard style setups)?

[Hendrik]

Well, I'm definitely in, though I'm not really interested in the DRM-infected solutions. I assume we'll be able to continue using STB-style setups with it, sans DRM (that would only apply to CableCard style setups)?

Existing features won't go away of course, but CableCard won't let you play encrypted content without handling DRM.

[glynor]

Existing features won't go away of course, but CableCard won't let you play encrypted content without handling DRM.

Ok. I think that's confirmation on what I'm looking for.  I know, of course, that encrypted content via CableCard requires DRM. I just want to make sure that including "official" CableCard support won't require you to put DRM on other sources (like my STB recorders).

[CountryBumkin]

I'm in as well.

For what it's worth - I suggest, that when this goes public, that JRiver be clear about what Countries will or will not be supported with the new TV Plus features (i.e. EPG data). I'm sure JRiver would not want anyone to get upset if they were to contribute then find out that the new TV Plus features are not available where they live.

[astromo]

Will there be an annual subscription fee, or just a once off purchase and then normal upgrade costs?

MC will continue to have a basic level of TV support similar to what is in the current product.  So upgrading MC might be enough for some users.

The TV Plus package will be a separate license and a separate upgrade.

Hopefully, that will let you decide whether the new TV work each year is worth your support.

What RoderickGI said..

It's clear that JRiver TV is a separate deal but not clear on whether it's a one off to buy in, or an ongoing deal to stay with the programme (I suspect the latter).

I'm not sure on how I'd go for this because the upfront inclusion on non-US regions (especially Australia, in my case) is also not clear. What's also not clear is the standard of EPG meta-data that would come with the deal for those non-US regions.

[JimH]

Would it work better to split the decryption from the EPG?  In other words, to offer two add-on packages.

You can assume that anything we offer as an enhanced EPG will have an annual fee, since we will be paying for it each month.

The reality is that there will still be some uncertainty going forward, but that we will be able to move faster.  It's just the nature of the market.  IceTV, anyone?

[astromo]

Would it work better to split the decryption from the EPG?  In other words, to offer two add-on packages.

You can assume that anything we offer as an enhanced EPG will have an annual fee, since we will be paying for it each month.

The reality is that there will still be some uncertainty going forward, but that we will be able to move faster.  It's just the nature of the market.  IceTV, anyone?

I would say, most certainly.

Some of the other Ozzies can comment with certainty on cable Pay TV over this way but I suspect that encryption wouldn't really be an option for you Down Under.

If it was an option, I probably wouldn't take encryption on. I'd only go for Cable Pay TV to get Rugby [did you check the Great Escape in the QF against Scotland in the World Cup last night? Can't blame the kilt wearers for being dirty against the RSA ref but that's how the rugby ball bounces ...], Cycling and (for the other half) Basketball and Netball. We do pretty well with FTA, as it is. I simply don't spend enough time in front of the box to justify paying for the privilege.

Thankfully with MC, I can record the stuff I want to watch and (using 3rd party software) cut the recording to drop the ads or simply use the roll wheel to jump ahead. I rarely watch TV truly live now.

[kensn]

Would it work better to split the decryption from the EPG?  In other words, to offer two add-on packages.

I for one would like to see them split. I use OTA exclusively and have no need for decryption.

Ken

[glynor]

Would it work better to split the decryption from the EPG?  In other words, to offer two add-on packages.

You can assume that anything we offer as an enhanced EPG will have an annual fee, since we will be paying for it each month.

I actually disagree.  Just for simplicity's sake, I wouldn't further split the baby. That would seem to just add complexity without actually solving much.

* CableCard is going to only apply to places that have CableLabs anyway, somewhat obviously.
* EPG enhancements could add markets over time, but you can limit it to a set of supported countries initially. Assuming that includes US, then it'll include the biggest CableLabs market.

So, how does splitting it help?

[leezer3]

I'm uncomfortable with the way what's effectively 2 upgrades per year feels. My initial thought was to structure it much more like this:
CableCard Etc. Decryption
Initial license fee ($25)
Include upgrades for this in the main MC upgrade.
EPG Sub
Separate yearly fee ($15)

I then got thinking- Now where this model falls over is when you change MC enough so that existing subscribers to the EPG are required to purchase an upgrade.
That's a fast way to hack off users in a hurry, as the perception is that they've already paid once

I honestly don't know the way to handle this correctly, but I think you've got to structure this so that there's only ever 1 purchase per customer, per year required.
I suppose you could charge $40 for an upgrade/ TV sub, and offer an upgrade at your standard $25 ish without the TV sub, but that starts to add complications.

Get this wrong, and I think you risk alienating a lot of users, especially those of us not in the US.

-Leezer-

[mwillems]

So, how does splitting it help?

It seems to me that the locations with need of an enhanced EPG may not be the same locations that have support for CableCARD/CableLabs, so splitting it will alter the incentives, potentially in a good way (but potentially not).  CableCARD is U.S. only, but the need for EPG data is global (and the need is probably more acute outside of the U.S.).

For example, I'm perfectly happy with the EPG I get right now in the U.S.; it has all the info I need.  But I don't have support for copy once content, which would be nice.  So I plan to opt in to the kickstarter.  Because I like JRiver, I'd probably opt in to both parts whether or not it's split.  But let's pretend I'm a rational market actor for a moment.  If I'm being a normal consumer and the two things get split, I'd only opt in for the CableCARD piece and not the EPG data and that would be a potential fiscal loss for the kickstarter (but unbundling features can also make customers happy, so not a total loss for JRiver).

But the incentives for the non-US market are exactly the opposite.  They don't care at all about CableCARD and do care about EPG because EPG service is much spottier/more expensive internationally.  So they're unlikely to opt in for the bundled version at all unless the EPG data will cover their region, and even then grudgingly because half of the fee is for something that's not even theoretically relevant to them.  Splitting it up would allow folks who just want the EPG piece to opt in for the part that's useful to them, and it would allow clearer messaging about covered regions.

So I think there are pluses and minuses either way, but the answer probably turns on JRiver's estimate of the interest of it's non-US market, and it's ability to deliver EPG services to it's non-US market.  If the whole deal winds up U.S. only, then I think keeping them together makes sense. If the EPG services will be available outside the U.S., some kind of split may make sense just to make the messaging less confusing for potential backers because the CableCARD piece is basically confined to the U.S. no matter what.  You'd have to have two separate geographic scope disclosures for the two parts of the bundle, and people are bad at reading carefully.

One solution I've seen other kickstarters use is splitting the campaigns using a geographic split instead of a functional split.  One campaign with both pieces bundled at full price for U.S. backers, and a separate campaign (or campaigns) just for EPG data for international backers.  Since EPG data is essentially market by market anyway it might make sense to finance the market expansions separately, which would allow JRiver to better gauge international interest/funding support.

[CountryBumkin]

I think one package is the way to go. You just need to list what Countries are supported.
  
Also I'm assuming that you will probably need to have a new/separate help sub-forum for "TV Plus (subscription)" users along with the current sub-forum for the "free Television" users. So, IMO, if you start splitting up the TV Plus features, its going to get messy on the support side.

Lastly, I think it would be more cost effective to keep it in one package -  then you would have a larger pool of subscribers to balance out the costs to JRiver (e.g. a large number of US subscribers could help offset the cost of providing EPG data for a smaller number of AU (pick a Country) users).

[JimH]

I'm uncomfortable with the way what's effectively 2 upgrades per year feels. My initial thought was to structure it much more like this:

I suppose you could charge $40 for an upgrade/ TV sub, and offer an upgrade at your standard $25 ish without the TV sub, but that starts to add complications.

I think we'll be able to handle upgrades.  We will probably do a package at a slightly reduced price.  MC with TV+ for a different price than MC alone.

As I said above, there is an ongoing cost for us, so we can't just sell it once.  Part of it will need to be an annual fee (upgrade).  Or we could just not bother with the enhanced EPG and leave the EPG as it is.  I don't think that's the best, but it's an option.

[JimH]

For clarity,
I don't think we'll need to do anything for CableCard since it's handled by the tuner hardware, but I'm not absolutely certain yet.

[muzicman0]

I was a backer of the SiliconDust kickstarter, and it turned into something that I would never use unless they make significant changes.

With that being said, I will certainly back this project...I don't need DRM where I am at (all my channels are copy freely), but I would support this.

There are lots of little things in the Theater View that I hope this will allow you to address as well.

[ferday]

Count me in.  Currently Canada isn't a viable market (no cable cards, only drm boxes) but the gov't is forcing that to change soon-ish and I want the boxes gone

[dallasjustice]

I use JRiver with cablecard now. The only channel I can't view is HBO, to my knowledge. I get program data now which I paid for from 3rd party. If I don't have HBO, is this "upgrade" beneficial to me?  I support JRiver but I also dislike Kickstarter. I hate that 6% of the money intended for JRiver is middlemannned out.

Michael.

[glynor]

I think one package is the way to go. You just need to list what Countries are supported.
  
Also I'm assuming that you will probably need to have a new/separate help sub-forum for "TV Plus (subscription)" users along with the current sub-forum for the "free Television" users. So, IMO, if you start splitting up the TV Plus features, its going to get messy on the support side.

Lastly, I think it would be more cost effective to keep it in one package -  then you would have a larger pool of subscribers to balance out the costs to JRiver (e.g. a large number of US subscribers could help offset the cost of providing EPG data for a smaller number of AU (pick a Country) users).

That's basically what I was thinking. I was also thinking:
1. It is unlikely that the price split would actually be something like $25/15, but more likely $5/35 (or worse if you count how many users in Australia use the product, it could be $100 per year or something just for EPG).

2. Having a "menu" of choices (do you want MC with basic EPG, or MC with EPG+, or MC with CableCard, or MC with CableCard and EPG+, or so on and so forth) is bad from a consumer point of view. I think it is also bad for sales.  Simplicity wins, at least in the consumer and pro-sumer space where MC plays.  It is already adding considerable complexity to add an add-on package, so I think the best thing would be to make there be only ONE add on package.  If you have to limit it to only certain covered countries, then so-be it.

[eddyshere]

IN...

[wilfredjg]

sounds good I'm in

[DeaneG]

Time for a poll?  I'm an OTA-only user who would pay for clean EPG data (since I'm doing it anyway), but am not particularly interested in paying for copy-once viewing. At some level, your competition could be a Tivo box with EPG subscription.

[KingSparta]

I hate that 6% of the money intended for JRiver is middlemannned out.

they also could gain higher exposure.

[gvanbrunt]

My suggestion would be to do a Kickstarter for enhanced TV in MC Itself, Let contributors have access to it with paying for upgrade. Let it be known in the kickstarter that an annual fee for the EPG will need to be paid. Perhaps that is one thing you could add to Kickstarter. Those that contribute a significant enough portion of money will get 1, 2, 5 year or lifetime of EPG. That kind of thing.

Just my 2c. Less confusing down the road.

[dallasjustice]

Can an enhanced jremote be thrown in?  Eg. Guide data navigation on jremote.

[RoderickGI]

My suggestion would be to do a Kickstarter for enhanced TV in MC Itself, Let contributors have access to it with paying for upgrade. Let it be known in the kickstarter that an annual fee for the EPG will need to be paid. Perhaps that is one thing you could add to Kickstarter. Those that contribute a significant enough portion of money will get 1, 2, 5 year or lifetime of EPG. That kind of thing.

Just my 2c. Less confusing down the road.

This is pretty close to what I was about to suggest.

First, keep it simple. One package. The Kickstarter is primarily paying for the development of functionality and not ongoing licence and subscription fees. We all pay for functionality we don't use when we pay for an upgrade, and don't complain. Keep this the same.

Contributors to the Kickstarter get access to TV Plus before anyone else, as one or two add-on modules, or just a different download, or whatever. Non-contributors don't get the functionality for say one year, but it is included in the following year's upgrade. This simplifies your ongoing upgrade process, and perhaps allows for future Kickstarter campaigns (streaming services?) without management of all the add-ins becoming very messy. Of course, the TV Plus functionality won't work without a current subscription to the appropriate feature, DRM or EPG+.

At the same time, contributors get a certain period covered for ongoing licence and subscription fees. That period could be variable in the Kickstarter. Subscriptions are managed separately to software upgrades. Ideally, a user wouldn't be required to upgrade in order to be able to use an EPG subscription with TV Plus, as long as they were running a version that supported EPG+. Just like a PercData subscription is required for that new functionality to work.

[pauly139]

If the EPG includes Australia I'll be in - currently looking for an IceTV replacement for Oz EPG...

[kstuart]

There seems to be some confusion between:

* Enhancing the EPG look, feel and functionality

and

* Providing EPG data (through Gracenote or Rovi)

I think some people are assuming only one or the other.

It is worth noting that EPG look and feel has been the subject of MASSIVE intellectual property lawsuits, in the hundreds of millions of dollars over years.

So, you will need to hire a consultant to do patent searches on anything you do (or else just license someone's existing patented look-and-feel).

[JimH]

Ideally, a user wouldn't be required to upgrade in order to be able to use an EPG subscription with TV Plus, as long as they were running a version that supported EPG+. Just like a PercData subscription is required for that new functionality to work.

The costs of providing the enhanced EPG would not allow us to include it with an MC upgrade.  The enhanced EPG will only be available as a subscription.  I'll try to clarify the description in the first post.

[RoderickGI]

The costs of providing the enhanced EPG would not allow us to include it with an MC upgrade.  The enhanced EPG will only be available as a subscription.  I'll try to clarify the description in the first post.

Understood Jim. I'll try to clarify what I meant.

If the enhanced EPG (EPG+) was delivered with version MC21.0.200, it would be part of the Kickstarter and would include the subscription cost for the first year. Let's say to December 2016. You may choose to deliver the code to everybody in the updates, or only to the Kickstarter contributors. If only to Kickstarter contributors, then there would be two update streams; one for non-contributors, and one of contributors. Or contributors would need to do two updates, one for core MC, and one for TV Plus. Only contributors with an EPG+ subscription would have access to the EPG+ functionality.

At some times after delivery of the Kickstarter campaign, you would commence offering EPG+ subscriptions to everyone else who had MC21.0.200 or above.

Then when MC22.0.1 was delivered around July 2016, include in it the TV Plus code, but again, require a subscription for it to work. Anyone who upgrades to MC22 would get the code, but not the functionality, unless they had a current subscription. Kickstarter contributors would still have a valid subscription out to December 2016.

At some stage you would probably want to align upgrades with subscription renewals. But at the same time you will be receiving new subscriptions throughout the year, so you will never have everyone on the same renewal cycle, unless you prorate the subscription at upgrade time for any new subscriptions in the previous year. Or new subscriptions only pay up to the next upgrade period, but then the upgrade month isn't fixed, but an EPG+ renewal would need to be for a predefined period, with an end date.

In other words, once the Kickstarter campaign was over and delivered, only require a version of MC that supports EPG+ (MC21.0.200 and above in my example) and a valid subscription to EPG+.

[BartMan01]

I use JRiver with cablecard now. The only channel I can't view is HBO, to my knowledge. I get program data now which I paid for from 3rd party. If I don't have HBO, is this "upgrade" beneficial to me?  I support JRiver but I also dislike Kickstarter. I hate that 6% of the money intended for JRiver is middlemannned out.

Michael.

That totally depends on your cable provider.
TWC encrypts all channels last I checked.
Comcast encrypts some non-premium channels in their lineup, and all premium channels (not all of which have apps).

if none of the channels you watch are encrypted (now or in the future), then that functionality doesn't help you.

[BartMan01]

I assume JRiver is aware of current push to eliminate the cable card technology
http://www.multichannel.com/news/technology/dlna-also-wants-cablecard-successor-talks/386834
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AllVid

That being said, encrypted cable card support is something needed now and it will be years before new technology comes out and fully replaces the existing cable card based infrastructure.

[mwillems]

if none of the channels you watch are encrypted (now or in the future).

The thrust of your post is correct but I want to nail down a terminology issue, because it get's snarled up quickly in these threads: all cable channels in all U.S. markets are encrypted (other than clear QAM channels which are usually just rebroadcasts of local channels), that's what the CableCARD is for (it decrypts the scrambled cable channels).  The issue is that some cable channels (which vary by market) have an extra layer of DRM on them that communicates to DVRs that they are copy once or copy never (as opposed to copy freely).  Those DRMed channels cannot currently be recorded or even watched in MC with a CableCARD tuner.  It's that copy once or copy never DRMed content that WMC used to support, and the kickstarter might allow MC to support.

But BartMan's conclusion is 100% correct: If you can currently watch and record all the cable channels that you've subscribed to in MC (and you don't have reason to think your cable company will pull the rug out from under you), then that part of the kickstarter shouldn't change your experience.  If you have TWC it will (by most reports) completely change your experience as they reportedly flag almost everything copy once.

[BartMan01]

The issue is that some cable channels (which vary by market) have an extra layer of DRM on them that communicates to DVRs that they are copy once or copy never (as opposed to copy freely).  

Thanks for the clarification, I was a bit too hasty.  One other thing to consider is that sometimes the DRM copy once flag gets triggered on for a specific show by mistake, or by choice of the broadcaster.  Even if your channels don't normally have DRM doesn't mean they never have DRM.

[mwillems]

Thanks for the clarification, I was a bit too hasty.  One other thing to consider is that sometimes the DRM gets triggered on for a specific show by mistake, or by choice of the broadcaster.  Even if your channels don't normally have DRM doesn't mean they never have DRM.

Yes I saw this myself a month or so ago when I tried to record a high-profile debate and discovered that I had no recording (and couldn't even watch the tail end live). The channel in question has watchable/recordable before and since.

[JimH]

... all cable channels in all U.S. markets are encrypted (other than clear QAM channels which are usually just rebroadcasts of local channels), that's what the CableCARD is for (it decrypts the scrambled cable channels).  The issue is that some cable channels (which vary by market) have an extra layer of DRM on them that communicates to DVRs that they are copy once or copy never (as opposed to copy freely).  Those DRMed channels cannot currently be recorded or even watched in MC with a CableCARD tuner.  It's that copy once or copy never DRMed content that WMC used to support, and the kickstarter might allow MC to support.

This is also my understanding.

[glynor]

If you have TWC it will (by most reports) completely change your experience as they reportedly flag almost everything copy once.

They do in my market. Everything on my cable is set Copy Once except Shop at Home/QVC type channels, two public access channels (they're probably required to carry for their right of way), and some "preview" channels that are basically ads for TWC pay per view.

Even the locals and PBS are Copy Once.

[muzicman0]

Could be wrong, but I believe flagging the local channels as anything but copy freely is not legal.

[glynor]

Could be wrong, but I believe flagging the local channels as anything but copy freely is not legal.

It was never illegal. That was based on an FCC rule (page 30 of the FCC Plug and Play agreement).  This rule mandated that all broadcast content must be set to CCI 0x00 (Copy Freely).

Unfortunately, this entire rule was vacated by the Federal Appeals Court in January 2013. This had some consumer benefits, in regards to OTA broadcasts, because the same rule also enforced the Broadcast Flag (which allowed content providers to set a flag preventing recording, even on OTA broadcasts, that wasn't encrypted but which device manufacturers had to follow).  The court ruled that the FCC overstepped its bounds in regulating the behavior of equipment manufacturers and vacated the rule.

However, this also allowed cable companies to do whatever they want with the CCI flags, and TWI set almost everything to 0x02 (Copy Once) within 6 months or so, at least in my market.

So, we got the ability to ignore the Broadcast Flag legally (this was being done widely in hardware, but was against the FCC rule, as the court battle progressed), but we lost the restriction on cable companies in the bargain.

[pge]

How does this relate to the DVB-CI+, the Digital Video Broadcast technology used in Europe with a Common Interface and a CAM (module) for Conditional Access?

All (payed) channels are encrypted, with a different technology from CableCARD used in the US which makes MC useless in Europe for TV.

If this is on the to do list: +1 !

This is relevant for at least:
    Albania
    Bulgaria
    Belgium
    France
    Germany
    Italy
    Luxembourg
    Netherlands
    Poland
    Romania
    Russia
    Spain
    Sweden
    Switzerland
    Turkey
    United Kingdom

so please, this is the chance!
     

[Daniel Warner]

I'm totally in favour of supporting you for the extra TV functionality, although I have no need for the encrypted channels thing here in the UK, I would just need the enhanced EPG.

To really replace WMC though, it needs to offer the 'Ease of Use' that WMC had, especially the way it handled TV recording/subscriptions for series.  It grabbed some EPG data OTA and thus dynamically altered timer recordings when previous programs ran late.  It also was very 'clever' in the way it could record all editions of a program, regardless of which channel it was on (Some BBC programs are spread over 3 channels sometimes for instance) and also seemed to 'know' when a program was a repeat or not, thus going some way to eliminate duplicates (It wasn't perfect but it did a pretty good job).

All of this also relies on Theatre Mode being enhanced. I know I keep harping on about this on other threads, but it really needs improving to eliminate Mouse/Keyboard use. I'm fine to keep hopping in and out but it is not Wife/Family friendly at all!!

[greynolds]

To really replace WMC though, it needs to offer the 'Ease of Use' that WMC had, especially the way it handled TV recording/subscriptions for series.  It grabbed some EPG data OTA and thus dynamically altered timer recordings when previous programs ran late.  It also was very 'clever' in the way it could record all editions of a program, regardless of which channel it was on (Some BBC programs are spread over 3 channels sometimes for instance) and also seemed to 'know' when a program was a repeat or not, thus going some way to eliminate duplicates (It wasn't perfect but it did a pretty good job).

I don't recall ever experiencing WMC alter timer recordings when previous programs ran late here in the USA.  I agree though that WMC does a great job catching all episodes of a series without recording repeats (with a few exceptions from time to time that are most likely the result of bad EPG data).  It also does a good job of catching another showing of a program if the first showing fails to record.

All of this also relies on Theatre Mode being enhanced. I know I keep harping on about this on other threads, but it really needs improving to eliminate Mouse/Keyboard use. I'm fine to keep hopping in and out but it is not Wife/Family friendly at all!!

Agreed.