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[wdesbrow]

I would very much appreciate a quick answer to the following, as I am thinking about purchasing the right networking equipment.

I currently have a modem/router in use from my cable company (ARRIS  Model DG 1670A) -- that is connected to a WIFI system.  The system also has a NAS storage device with about 500,000  music albums and a small number of Hi-RES music files (up to DSD level).  All of that is connected to a D/A/ converter and a traditional hi-end stereo system.

On a SECOND floor of my home, I would like to use a small ID computer, second DAC, amp and headphone for listening.  To transport the music files to this second floor location, and maintain a high level of speed (?)and avoid dropouts ... What is the better approach...   ??

Run CAT 5/6 cable to the second floor remote ID computer and DAC, OR
Strengthen my current WIFI system (if necessary) with a second router or "extender" placed in this second location, connected wirelessly to my primary router.

What is the best approach to preserve a high quality signal for HI-RES music file playing?

THANK YOU

[AndrewFG]

Hardwire. You won't regret it.

[jmone]

Where possible... always hardwire.

[JimH]

Ethernet over Power Line also works well.

[wdesbrow]

Jim,

Thank you for the responses.  When you say "Ethernet over powerline," should I assume you mean to physically use the powerlines already in the walls of my home?  If so, what kind of hardware do I need to use the powerlines?  Thanks

[Al ex]

Jim,

Thank you for the responses.  When you say "Ethernet over powerline," should I assume you mean to physically use the powerlines already in the walls of my home?  If so, what kind of hardware do I need to use the powerlines?  Thanks

Look for dlan (or powerlan) products. I think devolo is one of the market leaders in this field.

[jmone]

Just google "ethernet over power" and you will find a bunch of devices.  I find these are like "reliable" wireless...(if they can make a connection).    It will save you pulling additioinal cabling, and will give you enough bandwidth for most things, and are reliable.... but for them to work you both power points need to be on the same physical circuit, phase etc.  If you are going to give them a go get one with a return policy

[JimH]

They don't need to be on the same circuit.  They do work best if they are on the same side (+ or -) although there are adaptors that are supposed to solve that.

[Arindelle]

==> Power-line communication

IMO ethernet>Powerline>Wifi for sure. If it is just for audio however, even high rez audio, WIFI with an extender or 2 could be more than enough.  Powerline was too iffy with an old NAS I had, but fine when I was using a fast PC as my media server/main storage

I used to use Netgear ... on their site they have a good explanation on how it works. BUT get the fastest ones and they all need to be the same speed - other wise they will send only on the lowest speed. If you try these make sure to connect these to a dedicated socket, not a power strip or multiple adapter.

[Allen Brier]

Powerlines are generally not designed to carry ethernet. Broadband over Powerline (BPL) as it is called may transfer the data well enough to get from point A to point B, but they will radiate radio energy in the 1.7 - 80 MHz range, creating excessive background radio noise for anyone using those frequencies, such as amateur radio operators, short wave listeners, government agencies, etc. CAT 5/6 cable, even unshielded, is designed to carry the data and its twist will reduce radio noise transmission. Please refer to http://www.arrl.org/broadband-over-powerline-bpl for more information.

If you must use it, use the HomePlug product.

Allen Brier N5XZ

[wdesbrow]

thank you ALL for your expertise and opinions.

Allen --
I understand you are first and foremost recommending hard wiring with CAT5/6 wire, correct?

I just happened to be on the phone with OPPO -- who makes the player/DAC I am using in my main system.  Their rep (from personal experience) also recommended a "Homeplug AV2" product.  Is that consistent with what you recommend?

Thanks again.

[Allen Brier]

Yes, a HomePlug unit should be fine. According to the article in the link in my earlier post:
"Industry groups, such as HomePlug and the HomeGrid Forum have implemented industry specifications that also have spectral notches for the amateur bands.  This is a successful model, because with millions of in-premise modems deployed, ARRL has not received reports of harmful interference involving HomePlug or HomeGrid Forum products.  These groups realize that for BPL to achieve its potential, its proponents and regulators must proactively address interference problems through good rules and industry standards and practices."

I think a hardwired CAT5/6 cable would still be better, but at least the HomePlug equipment will not generate interference to licensed radio operators, in violation of FCC Part 15.

Wondering, though, what Oppo player/DAC are you using? I just upgraded from a BDP-103D to a BDP-105D. I have not implemented MC yet (computer is on the way) but instead have a HDD connected directly via the USB port and using Oppo's wi-fi app on my Samsung phone. I get occasional lockups with that method (using the 103 or the 105). I am planning to implement MC along with Gizmo or MCRemote to eliminate the lockups. What is your setup?

Allen N5XZ

[wdesbrow]

Allen,

Keep in mind I am a rank beginner in digital, just an old-school two channel guy since early college.  But from everything I have read and seen advised I have so far done the following for FLAC files from CDs and a limited number of HI RES download albums.

Bought DB PowerAmp for Ripping; and MC for organizing and accessing music.  I am using a low-noise PC, along with a Western Digital NAS drive (two 3-T in bays) for storage, connected to WIFI.  All feed an OPPO 105 through the USB input to its DAC -- which as I understand it, services the widest variety of sampling rates.  So far, I am using the most currently-offered (by my cable company) modem/router for WIFI.  Then I added MC remote software to an Android tablet for remote capability. (Although initially, I started out experimenting with the OPPO remote software you allude to -- which OPPO warned was "a work in progress").  

(For me, Jim and our FORUM-mates have been excellent in offering good advice AND reducing it to newbie language.)

So far -- although there has been a lot of trial-and-error questions from me -- the above set-up has been working (two-channel music only) thus far.  However, (as you have probably already seen) I am trying to add-on a remote (in my home) room capability for accessing the same library and playing it via headphone amp and headphones.  I would be happy to share additional information if you think it might be helpful.

wayne d.

[ssands]

I did not have the hard-wire option and was having real trouble streaming Hi-Res music when I was using JRiver to pull from a NAS and then stream to a DAC. (JRiver was on a wireless laptop). Std CD resolution worked fine. Hi-Res repeatedly broke up and monitoring the network throughput didn't seem to indicate a problem.

However, when I added a wired access point and my laptop connected to that, all the problems went away.

(Earlier experiences with PowerLine Ethernet were not successful because of the circuit issue, but it sounds like that might not be a problem anymore. )

I had an older router lying around that I used for the access point, so that was a cheap and totally effective solution for me. Note that the access point I added was wired.

I can stream 192k/24bit without a problem.

[wdesbrow]

Hi SSands, Thanks for the additional context. 

I am just in the process of buying a DAC headphone amp and an ID computer for my remote access point -- so I have not yet determined whether straight wifi or powerline Ethernet will work properly with HIRES files --  although Jim's earlier reaction was that I wouldn't regret going with a wired connection.

One question:  Was your wired connection done using CAT 5 or 6 to your remote location -- then connecting to a second router in that remote location?  If that is the case, should I assume you could have multiple devices (e.g., a smart TV) wire-connected from that second router???  Is that one of the reasons you did it?  (In my case, I was thinking that , if needed, the wire would run from my main router directly to a new ID computer -- then into a DAC --with no second router involved.)

Any additional context you can provide would be appreciated.  Thanks. 

[Arindelle]

One question:  Was your wired connection done using CAT 5 or 6 to your remote location -- then connecting to a second router in that remote location?  If that is the case, should I assume you could have multiple devices (e.g., a smart TV) wire-connected from that second router???  Is that one of the reasons you did it?  (In my case, I was thinking that , if needed, the wire would run from my main router directly to a new ID computer -- then into a DAC --with no second router involved.)

Any additional context you can provide would be appreciated.  Thanks. 

You would want CAT5E or CAT 6 -- the old Cat 5 is not full gigabyte capable ... a simple explanation here http://www.cableorganizer.com/articles/cat5-cat5e-cat6.htm As Cat 6 is more or less the same price (at least where I am) - get the cat 6.

If you only have one PC running media server that locally hosts files and one client (the ID) sure you can use one router -- most modern routers that are 1Gb/s have small hubs built in (mine has four ethernet outputs). You can plug both machines directly if your cabling permits. Adding other PCs/NAS you probably would want to add a full gygabyte "intelligent" Ethernet Switch --  these are not expensive (say 30$?) if you don't have a lot of connecting devices.  Most networks don't need a second router. Why add a layer of complication. I'm no specialist though .. there might be other deciding factors (like huge house, long cable distances - you want ethernet wall plugs )

[ssands]

Hi SSands, Thanks for the additional context. 

I am just in the process of buying a DAC headphone amp and an ID computer for my remote access point -- so I have not yet determined whether straight wifi or powerline Ethernet will work properly with HIRES files --  although Jim's earlier reaction was that I wouldn't regret going with a wired connection.

One question:  Was your wired connection done using CAT 5 or 6 to your remote location -- then connecting to a second router in that remote location?  If that is the case, should I assume you could have multiple devices (e.g., a smart TV) wire-connected from that second router???  Is that one of the reasons you did it?  (In my case, I was thinking that , if needed, the wire would run from my main router directly to a new ID computer -- then into a DAC --with no second router involved.)

Any additional context you can provide would be appreciated.  Thanks. 

If you can, go wired. It's faster and eliminates lots of potential problems w/interference due to other electrical products (e.g., phones) and walls, etc.
We completely re-did our house, down to the studs. So, we went ahead and wired (almost) all over the place w/CAT6. The price difference between that and 5e wasn't a big deal. Had I thought about it, I would have put another wired ethernet connection where my laptop usually lives, but I wasn't anticipating I would be set up in that area when we wired.
We have "smart" TV, bluray, Sonos, Naim Streamer, and a NAS with all my music and video. Everything is hard wired (sometimes thru switches) to the router/access point. The secondary access point that I added to get better bandwidth probably catches the kids roaming laptop and my machine and that is all.
Hope this helps. Let me know if I missed any of your questions or you have others.

[wdesbrow]

SSands and Arindelle,

Thank you both for your clear answers.  I believe I have all the information I need to put together a system with some degree of confidence.  I will start at the "top of the food chain" and find out how difficult  (and $$$) it will be to run a Cat 6 cable to my remote location.  Is there a CURRENT model of the ID that you would recommend, or is just one up-to-date model available?  Also, pls. let me know if there is anything else I should be considering -- other than a good quality DAC/headphone amp and headphones.  I am considering the OPPO products for these because of past excellent performance (I realize the headphone question is one of individual and subjective taste.).

Thanks again.

wdesbrow

[ssands]

I don't own the Id so cannot comment on it. I've heard very good things about Oppo, but haven't used it myself.

I recently purchased a pair of Hifiman headphones (H400e??? - I forget and they are downstairs). I'm very happy with them and do not get ear fatigue from listening to them. They were at the right price point for me as I bought used on eBay. Would definitely buy them again.

[wdesbrow]

THANKS.   Good input.

w.

[MikeO]

I have just done exactly what you are considering.

I found wifi wasn't reliable enough especially on hd tracks. I finally ran a network cable , I use wifi to control , eg JRemote etc

I have been running for several days like this with flawless performance

I used a 801.11n router 300 Mbps (to-link) since none of my renders support anything higher

I use a gigabit Ethernet as I stream blu Ray too audio probably doesn't,need it but you may as well future proof

Mike

[wdesbrow]

Mike-- Thanks for your input -- extremely valuable.  A couple of follow-up clarifications please --

When you say "801.11n router..." is that a router you use at the remote end of your connection (?) or is that the main router you have as the signal enters your home?  Are you using it as a splitter at the remote end to accommodate several devices (or is that he incorrect term)?  Don't know what "to-link" means (?).

What do you mean by the last sentence in your message?  Ethernet gigabit?  NOTE:  I also want to connect the first-floor main router in my home to a HT system and a future smart TV in the basement.  That particular CAT6 wiring will be much easier to do.

Thanks

wayne

[MikeO]

Hi

The latest routers use 802.11 AC which allows for faster speeds, typically 1300 Mbps. The 802.11n protocol is normally 300 Mbps. My renderers use 802.11n so anything faster is a waste

Routers have 2 or 3 speeds for hard wired connections, 10, 100 or 1000 Mbps , the 1000 is referred to as Gigabit

If you want to stream BluRay you will need the 1000 speed even though the stream is at worst 40-50 mbps

The geography .... My router is an ADSL modem as well so is first as the telephone line comes in. My PC is hard wired, the rest , wife , laptops plus iPads etc are wireless.

At the hi fi end there is a hard wire to multi port Switch which is the distribution point for hard wires to the renderers, AV amp, media player and network streamer

To link was a typo TP-Link is a manufacture of network equipment. Typing on an iPad sucks !!

Hope that clarifies

Mike

[wdesbrow]

Thanks, Mike, for the clarification.

I have a couple new questions, if you, and others wouldn't mind putting some additional time for beginner questions:

1.  In hard wiring a remote listening area, I was able to establish a second modem in that location (from my cable company) -- and the plan would be to hard wire an ID computer with MC to that modem -- then feed to a DAC and amplifier etc.  As a result, I would be selecting music on a tablet and MC Remote (that unless I am mistaken) would connect to my primary PC its JRiver software.  Then the tablet would send the selected file to the remote ID unit through the secondary router.  Will this arrangement work?  I notice that the secondary router (all routers supplied by my local cable company) has a different ip address than the primary router.  So -- can JRiver MC send files anywhere on the same WIFI system, regardless of ip addresses?

2. Given the information above, and my intention to use a single music library on my NAS drive on the WIFI system, which ID unit should I buy?  I assume storage capacity would not be an issue (?) since I   plan to access files from the NAS drive (?).  Am I missing something?

Thanks and Happy Holidays to all.