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[clivo]

Hi PC People

I need to know how to set JRiver MC 21 to play DSD files via USB I have a Chord 2Qute dac and cannot get settings correct for recognised hi res play back. I have installed the drivers supplied by Chord.  I have some instructions relating to the earlier JR MC for windows and this seemed very simple now screens are different and setting combinations more complex to me.  I cannot get JR tp play my first DSD download which is a 2.8 meg file.  I get error message something went wrong with playback.  When the dac is connect via usb lead JR does attempt to play the file but only white noise emits from the output hope this is a clue.  Please can anyone help?

However I have a Yamaha AV amp supporting DSD and this works perfectly via Sandisk stick frustrating as I want to sample the delights of the supposed Chord DACs bespoke sound quality.

cheers clivo

[JimH]

Welcome to the forum.  You can set the audio connection to bitstreaming if the DAC supports it.  More on our wiki:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD

[dtc]

You should be bitstreaming and using the Chord ASIO driver with the DSD over PCM (DOP) box checked in the driver setup.

[jamezua]

You should be bitstreaming and using the Chord ASIO driver with the DSD over PCM (DOP) box checked in the driver setup.

I'm afraid there is no ASIO driver for any Chord model, you should use WASAPI and DoP format in DSP and Output format, here are instructions from Chord webpage, but there were for the JRiver 17, so it's different now, I have asked Chord people to tell me wich are the correct settings, hope they will answer me soon so that way I can help here better ...

http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/files/DSD%20set%20up%20for%20QuteEX%20and%20QBD76%20HDSD.doc

[dtc]

I'm afraid there is no ASIO driver for any Chord model, you should use WASAPI and DoP format in DSP and Output format, here are instructions from Chord webpage, but there were for the J River 17, so it's different now, I have asked Chord people to tell me wich are the correct settings, hope they will answer me soon so that way I can help here better ...

http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/files/DSD%20set%20up%20for%20QuteEX%20and%20QBD76%20HDSD.doc

Your link is to older models.  I use the ASIO 1.03 driver on my Chord Hugo. The 2Qute is basically a Hugo in a different box and, I believe, uses the same driver. You can get the Windows ASIO  driver for the 2Qute here.

http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/products-info.asp?id=97

[jamezua]

If you're right there's one thing I can't understand ?, with an ASIO driver you should be able to listen native DSD, and not only DoP, I asked Mathew Bartlett ( Manufacturing Director in Chord ) how to play DSD files in a Chord Ex Qute and he kindly answered:

Yes use WASAPI and then just select the bitstreaming option and select DSD.
That's all you need to do. Just make sure nothing is ticked in the DSP studio options.

I don't know if the Hugo is capable to play native DSD files, if not, there's no difference between using WASAPI or ASIO, as you will hear DSD over PCM in both cases and not pure DSD ...

[dtc]

If you're right there's one thing I can't understand ?, with an ASIO driver you should be able to listen native DSD, and not only DoP, I asked Mathew Bartlett ( Manufacturing Director in Chord ) how to play DSD files in a Chord Ex Qute and he kindly answered:

Yes use WASAPI and then just select the bitstreaming option and select DSD.
That's all you need to do. Just make sure nothing is ticked in the DSP studio options.

I don't know if the Hugo is capable to play native DSD files, if not, there's no difference between using WASAPI or ASIO, as you will hear DSD over PCM in both cases and not pure DSD ...

I think the Qute EX uses WASAPI for DSD over DoP and the newer Hugo and 2Qute use ASIO for DSD over DoP. Qute EX was an earlier design, before Chord went to ASIO. Neither support direst DSD (dsf or dsdiff).

DSD over DoP is just a clever way way to pack the DSD data into a PCM wrapper for transmission. It allows the DAC maker to use existing input logic, without having to develop a new 1 bit input module.
The player packs the DSD bits into a PCM stream and the DAC extracts the bits into a native DSD stream.  The end result inside the DAC is the same for native DSD or  DSD over DoP.

The DSP Studio options are for conversion to a particular output format. In this case, you do not want to convert anything, just send the DSD over DoP.

[jamezua]

I think the Qute EX uses WASAPI for DSD over DoP and the newer Hugo and 2Qute use ASIO for DSD over DoP. Qute EX was an earlier design, before Chord went to ASIO. Neither support direst DSD (dsf or dsdiff).

DSD over DoP is just a clever way way to pack the DSD data into a PCM wrapper for transmission. It allows the DAC maker to use existing input logic, without having to develop a new 1 bit input module.
The player packs the DSD bits into a PCM stream and the DAC extracts the bits into a native DSD stream.  The end result inside the DAC is the same for native DSD or  DSD over DoP.

The DSP Studio options are for conversion to a particular output format. In this case, you do not want to convert anything, just send the DSD over DoP.

Well I think we arrive now to the definitive question: does DoP sounds equally to native DSD? I personally think NOT. I have an IFI Micro DSD that plays native DSD and you can hear the difference when you play it on DoP, I have read a review in Head-Fi and this is what it says:

"I mentioned earlier that iFi doesn't follow the hi-fi norm. What does that mean? iFi believes in minimal DSP, and believes that one should be listening to as close to the source audio as possible. DSP's such as upsampling, volume control, format conversion, etc. create unavoidable mathematical losses. The more conversions, the greater the losses. The more changes to the source signal, the more likely the changes become audible. This may especially be the case with DSD. DSP such as filtering, sample rate conversion and volume control require conversion of the 1-bit bitstream to a multibit intermediary, and remodulation back to 1 bit.

Therefore, the iDSD Micro uses a chipset that converts DSD to analog natively with no extra digital conversion or DSP. The 1 bit DSD signal is sent to an analog FIR filter for conversion. That's it! Also, the iDSD micro has a 'BitPerfect' filter option for PCM. This eliminates the oversampling reconstruction filter used in PCM conversion."

I guess Chord is always better in PCM than in DSD, don't know why they have an ASIO driver if you can't hear native DSD anyway, what is the improvement from changing from WASAPI to ASIO if you still can't hear DSD native files? Other DAC brands as Fiio or iBasso have moved to play pure DSD instead of DoP, can't understand why Chord not ...

 

[dtc]

Well I think we arrive now to the definitive question: does DoP sounds equally to native DSD? I personally think NOT. I have an IFI Micro DSD that plays native DSD and you can hear the difference when you play it on DoP, I have read a review in Head-Fi and this is what it says:

"I mentioned earlier that iFi doesn't follow the hi-fi norm. What does that mean? iFi believes in minimal DSP, and believes that one should be listening to as close to the source audio as possible. DSP's such as upsampling, volume control, format conversion, etc. create unavoidable mathematical losses. The more conversions, the greater the losses. The more changes to the source signal, the more likely the changes become audible. This may especially be the case with DSD. DSP such as filtering, sample rate conversion and volume control require conversion of the 1-bit bitstream to a multibit intermediary, and remodulation back to 1 bit.

Therefore, the iDSD Micro uses a chipset that converts DSD to analog natively with no extra digital conversion or DSP. The 1 bit DSD signal is sent to an analog FIR filter for conversion. That's it! Also, the iDSD micro has a 'BitPerfect' filter option for PCM. This eliminates the oversampling reconstruction filter used in PCM conversion."

I guess Chord is always better in PCM than in DSD, don't know why they have an ASIO driver if you can't hear native DSD anyway, what is the improvement from changing from WASAPI to ASIO if you still can't hear DSD native files? Other DAC brands as Fiio or iBasso have moved to play pure DSD instead of DoP, can't understand why Chord not ...

 

First, The Head-Fi quote has nothing to with DSD over DoP. It applies to various DSP and other operations on the signal, but not to DSD over DoP. DSd over DoP is a bit perfect operation. The operations in the quote are generally not.

The"format conversions" in the quote is questionable. Lossless conversions do not affect the final sound unless there is a problem with the conversion.  Lossless to lossy converstions do.

If native DSD sounds different than DSD over DoP, then it is a problem with the implementation.  Converting a DSD file to DSD over DoP and back to native DSD is bit perfect if done correctly.

Here is a oversimplfied example

The DSD Signal is 1001. DSD over Dop simple packs 1001 into a PCM wrapper, but the 1001 is still there. The input stage of DAC simply extracts the signal from the DSD over DoP and it comes out as 1001 and passes it down the line, just like it would do with a native DSD format.  The operation is bit perfect. If the player and DAC do their jobs correctly, then you should hear no difference in playing native DSD and DSD over DoP. Again, the only use of the PCM format is to move the 0's and 1's of the original DSD to the DAC. The DAC extracts the 0's and 1's and then processes the DSD signal.

If you hear a difference in native DSD and DSD over DoP it is an implementation issue, specific to your equipment.

I am not sure why Chord implemented an ASIO driver. Maybe they just wanted control over the transmission and figured ASIO was a better option going forward. But is has nothing to do with sound quality.

[dtc]

Here is more information about DoP.

http://dsd-guide.com/dop-open-standard

Part of the motivation was that Apple only supports PCM, so a way was needed to do DSD on Apple computers. DoP was the result. If you look at the format, you will see that the DSD bits are maintained exactly.

Matt was part of the team that defined the DoP standard.

[jamezua]

Here is more information about DoP.

http://dsd-guide.com/dop-open-standard

Part of the motivation was that Apple only supports PCM, so a way was needed to do DSD on Apple computers. DoP was the result. If you look at the format, you will see that the DSD bits are maintained exactly.

Matt was part of the team that defined the DoP standard.

Thanks for the complete info, in that DSD guide this is what they say:

"The 8 most significant bits are used for the DSD marker and alternate with each sample between 0x05 and 0xFA. Each channel within a sample contains the same marker. This has been chosen to minimize the click that might be experienced when the receiving hardware misinterpretes the data as PCM when it really is DSD. If this should happen it would create a tone around 88kHz and roughly -34db, nothing harmful and something that most D/A converters would suppress to some degree before it even reaches the loudspeaker. It should be pointed out that hardware manufacturers and software developers alike can easily use common safeguards to prevent such cases of erroneous format switching and that they may only be limited to times during development of hardware and software. It is their responsibility to prevent misinterpreted cases and to test their products thoroughly before release. Misinterpreation of PCM data as DSD may create less predictable clicks."

And I've been upgrading the firmware of my iFi Micro DSD and they say something similar:

"Firmware v5.0 ‘Vanilla’ optimises DSD via DoP to give it equal performance; freedom from clicks and sound quality on par with native DSD (which was up to now, only available on Windows). While the 30% data overhead of DoP is retained, special code optimisation in the iFi firmware brings it level with ASIO native. Sonically, both protocols are now equally good."

So they don't sound the same as you need to get rid of those clicks, sonically those protocols are not equal and so it's quality, and if you use Dop it may use a percent or two more CPU to unpack, as I read somewhere:

 "The root of all this is the theory that if something is direct and native, unconverted and pure, it has a better chance of sounding realistic and closer to the master recording once it gets through your system and out your speakers (or headphones). "

And here's something more form the iFi crew:

"Background. The DSD DoP Evolution

DoP DSD is known for inherently creating noise when switching between PCM and DSD-DoP tracks and
back. This problem has been addressed at the source by some but not all playback software - hence, much
available software when playing DSD, struggles.
So we at iFi have taken it upon ourselves to think ‘outside of the (PC) box’ to resolve this upstream issue
at the downstream firmware level for all our DSD capable devices. In a process that took over a year, we
have resolved the many areas where the differences between DSD-DoP and PCM make switching an
annoyance.
Additionally, DoP is often cited as offering a lower sound quality. By adjusting core code and the clocking
system in the firmware, this point is now moot – as we eliminated the hit on processor utilisation by DoP
vs. native DSD playback.
So choose native DSD or DoP-DSD with the confidence that either will deliver the same great DSD sound
quality and user experience. Just like DSD and PCM, we like one as much as the other."

[dtc]

A few comments.

The pops that occur when switching formats are pretty much a thing of the past, at least from reading this forum. It seems to happen with some DACs and not others, which makes me believe the DAC designers can fix it if it is happening, like iFi did. I do not listen to DSD extensively, but I have never heard a pop when play DSD on my Hugo.

it sounds like the difference you heard between DoP and native DSD was an implementation problem by iFi, but it sounds like iFi finally got their DoP implementation to be as good as their native DSD implementation.

DoP is here to stay unless Apple decides to support native DSD. The DAC designers have to learn to live with DoP and deliver solid implementations. There should be no differences between DoP and native DSD if properly implemented. Using native DSD format would be preferable, but given the issue with Apple, my guess is many DAC designers will simple stay with DoP.

[jamezua]

Well, if you have to buy a good and expensive DAC so it will be implemented and you will not hear any pop or crack, that means that people that can't afford them and have to buy cheaper DAC's will have those problems if they hear DSD in DoP format. IMHO it's more practical in general to buy one wich is capable to play DSD native.

Thanks, you've been very helpful, maybe a good question for the Chord crew would be why is there an ASIO driver if you could still not hear pure DSD files? ?, people with Apple computers could choose WASAPI and DoP and the rest with Windows could hear DSD native with a fully implemented ASIO driver, many DAC brands are moving to that option, hope it will be the path to follow for the rest, cheers ... 

[dtc]

Actually, I think the pops are mostly a thing of the past, as least for usb. The manufacturers are aware of the issue and will fix it, if they have not already.