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Author Topic: WMC Alternative Needs  (Read 6801 times)

bahamas

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WMC Alternative Needs
« on: May 10, 2016, 07:45:03 am »

This is a note from a Newbie:
I am a WMC veteran and refugee - and I have a number of friends who are facing the same conundrum: where to look for a replacement once we upgrade to W10. I am somewhat technically inclined and have looked at a number of free alternatives - including Kodi and a patched WMC version that will run on W10 (the latter wins - by a large margin - for the time being). When I first installed and ran JRiver MC, I was dropped directly into the awfully confusing start screen - projected on a 10' screen. No tutorial what would be up next, no wizard to ask me if i wanted a 10' UI etc. A more casual evaluator would have called it quits right there and then.

Here is what my friends and I are looking for:

1. A simple pre-configured install that "just works", including starting in 10' UI, and that allows to associate libraries with folders, and no fancy import
2. A pretty and fresh look that is easy to navigate with a MS remote
3. Absolute robustness - no unexpected bombing / no dropping off in unexpected highly granular configurations (make level-selectable)
4. Seamless integration of live-TV, including easy and complete EPG, and intuitive controls including recording (and recall): WMC got this absolutely right!
5 The continuity of a commercially supported sustem: no-one I know minds paying for long-term stability and evolutionay behavior over time, rather than breaking things in the name of progress
6 Offer a shoe-in for anyone switching from another system, i.e. (see 1.) pre-configuration for typical migration paths

In summary - appreciate what non-technical, non-fan-boy users want to do / enjoy: uncomplicated entertainment. Then develop the most perfect, simplest, and prettiest approach to achieve exactly this experience, like Steve did!

Cheers,
Hm
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JimH

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Re: WMC Alternative Needs
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2016, 10:04:06 am »

I'll address a couple of your points.

You can tell MC to start in Theater View.  See the options for Startup and General/Behavior.

You can start MC with the Green Button on your MC Remote.  You need to set MC to run Media Server on startup.  That's in the options for Startup.

Live TV works.

The migration path starting point is an interesting idea.

People have suggested putting settings in Theater View, but I think it's a stretch to pack everything in there.

I don't know what this means:
Quote
... no dropping off in unexpected highly granular configurations (make level-selectable)
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~OHM~

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Re: WMC Alternative Needs
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2016, 10:24:34 am »

This is a note from a Newbie:
I am a WMC veteran and refugee - and I have a number of friends who are facing the same conundrum: where to look for a replacement once we upgrade to W10. I am somewhat technically inclined and have looked at a number of free alternatives - including Kodi and a patched WMC version that will run on W10 (the latter wins - by a large margin - for the time being). When I first installed and ran JRiver MC, I was dropped directly into the awfully confusing start screen - projected on a 10' screen. No tutorial what would be up next, no wizard to ask me if i wanted a 10' UI etc. A more casual evaluator would have called it quits right there and then.

Here is what my friends and I are looking for:

1. A simple pre-configured install that "just works", including starting in 10' UI, and that allows to associate libraries with folders, and no fancy import
2. A pretty and fresh look that is easy to navigate with a MS remote
3. Absolute robustness - no unexpected bombing / no dropping off in unexpected highly granular configurations (make level-selectable)
4. Seamless integration of live-TV, including easy and complete EPG, and intuitive controls including recording (and recall): WMC got this absolutely right!
5 The continuity of a commercially supported sustem: no-one I know minds paying for long-term stability and evolutionay behavior over time, rather than breaking things in the name of progress
6 Offer a shoe-in for anyone switching from another system, i.e. (see 1.) pre-configuration for typical migration paths

In summary - appreciate what non-technical, non-fan-boy users want to do / enjoy: uncomplicated entertainment. Then develop the most perfect, simplest, and prettiest approach to achieve exactly this experience, like Steve did!

Cheers,
Hm

ERROR ERROR ERROR ERROR ERROR ERROR ERROR ERROR ERROR
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RoderickGI

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Re: WMC Alternative Needs
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2016, 01:28:40 am »

Upgrading to Windows 10 removes an existing installation of WMC, which is different to WMP of course.

At least one person around here who has used the patched version of WMC installed on Windows 10 found that it had at least one non-starter/shop-stopper limitation. I don't recall what that was.

Bahamas, all new software has a learning curve, and all old software feels familiar and correct, once you have learned to live with or overcome its idiosyncrasies. WMC was no different.

1. I installed MC and started using it immediately. It didn't start in Theatre View, the 10' interface, but that made sense, given the way it works. There is a basic "Getting Started" article in the Wiki, which is linked to in the "Start" screen you mentioned. With MC and JRiver, it is necessary to search and use the Wiki and forums, as that is where the knowledge is.
2. MC looks pretty good, and is very configurable to change its look, although not as much as Kodi. (Form over function, or function over form?) It is very easy to navigate with an MCE remote.
3. No software is absolutely robust, and JRiver's development philosophy of continual improvement with many releases all year means that the latest release may have some issue. As long as you chose to use the Stable versions, as per the Update Channel in MC, then you should have few problems, if any. (I don't understand that last statement either.  8) )
4. TV is very well integrated, and has been improved enormously in he last year or two. Controls, once you learn them, are consistent and therefore intuitive, particularly in the 10' Theatre View.
As a WMC refugee you have been spoiled by Microsoft for many years, as they have provided a free, curated EPG since 2005. Most EPG data is not free, and never has been, particularly for a commercial, paid for application. People who do provide free EPG data do not like commercial vendors to use their data. In fact, they do not allow it. That being said, MC supports multiple EPG sources, and the Microsoft source is one of them. It seems to be having more and more problems though, and JRiver has no control over that. MC uses an integrated third party tool, mc2xml, to collect the Microsoft data, which is actually sourced from Rovi. I personally use the free OTA EPG data provided by the broadcasters here in Australia, and use the free software "EPG Collector" to collect the data, which MC then imports via the XMLTV file method.
The completeness of any EPG data is entirely up to the source, and JRiver have no control over that at all. Microsoft used to have some control with Grace, before they moved to Rovi last year, but that is only because of their size. They don't seem to have the same control with Rovi, and don't seem to be trying to exert it either. EPG sources, quality, and completeness vary all over the world. Europe vs North America vs Australia vs South America, etc., they all have similar issues, and different solutions. Which is why collecting good EPG data has typically been complex, unreliable, and involved some level of intellectual property theft via scraping commercial web sites.

The annual cost of commercial EPG data from the likes of PercData ( the commercial version of Schedules Direct, which costs about the same anyway) is equivalent to the cost of annual MC upgrades.

EPG provision was rarely ever easy, with WMC (because Microsoft did it all for you, free) and a few other applications that no longer exist for new purchases (i.e. the business model wasn't sustainable), have been the only exceptions. So, MC is about as good as it is going to get, into the future. Unless you want to use an Xbox One for your TV needs.
5. JRiver has been around for a long time, and the software is incrementally evolved, rather than rebuilt and released at discrete times. As mentioned above, as long as you chose to use the Stable versions, as per the Update Channel in MC, then you should have few problems, if any.
6. As someone who has had to do that to some extent for commercial applications, that is a really, really big ask. For consumer applications it is even more difficult, as subjective requirements come into the picture. Inevitably, user hit up against something they want different from the shoe0in approach, and often it is a show stopper for them. Unless of course you do a Steve Jobs, and just build it how you want it, and tell everyone that is how it is, providing no choice.

In summary: MC is a bit geeky. You don't have to be a fanboi, but there is a learning curve. However, you can start using it as soon as you install it, and then improve it from there. At least I did.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

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Re: WMC Alternative Needs
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2016, 02:20:22 am »

ERROR
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greynolds

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Re: WMC Alternative Needs
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2016, 08:20:04 pm »

I took the free w10 up grade (have since removed it and reintalled 7) and I had full use of wmp and wmc (junk as it may be)
Windows Media Center gets removed if you upgrade to Windows 10.  The only way to use Windows Media Center with Windows 10 is to install it via an unsupported process that Microsoft could pretty easily disable at any time with an update.  For TV purposes, WMC most definitely is NOT junk.  It's actually a very polished solution that works extremely well.  Unfortunately, Microsoft has decided they don't want to continue with it, so it's no longer available as of Windows 10 and support for things like fixing guide data feed problems will gradually go away.

Back to the OP's questions, the only major piece that's missing for those looking to migrate to MC from WMC is support for Copy Once content.  That means you won't be able to watch any premium channels such as HBO and may mean that some or all other channels cannot be viewed, depending on your cable operator.  The one channel that's an issue for me is FX as FOX insisted on Verizon FIOS marking that channel Copy Once.
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~OHM~

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Re: WMC Alternative Needs
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2016, 08:40:40 pm »

Windows Media Center gets removed if you upgrade to Windows 10.  The only way to use Windows Media Center with Windows 10 is to install it via an unsupported process that Microsoft could pretty easily disable at any time with an update.  For TV purposes, WMC most definitely is NOT junk.  It's actually a very polished solution that works extremely well.  Unfortunately, Microsoft has decided they don't want to continue with it, so it's no longer available as of Windows 10 and support for things like fixing guide data feed problems will gradually go away.

Back to the OP's questions, the only major piece that's missing for those looking to migrate to MC from WMC is support for Copy Once content.  That means you won't be able to watch any premium channels such as HBO and may mean that some or all other channels cannot be viewed, depending on your cable operator.  The one channel that's an issue for me is FX as FOX insisted on Verizon FIOS marking that channel Copy Once.

Then explain to me why It worked in w10 for me with the free upgrade
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greynolds

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Re: WMC Alternative Needs
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2016, 10:05:18 pm »

Then explain to me why It worked in w10 for me with the free upgrade
If it wasn't removed, then it was a mistake in the upgrade process.  If it actually still works without you doing anything, then consider yourself extremely lucky.

https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-10/3881/here-are-the-features-windows-10-will-remove-when-you-upgrade

I upgraded one of my PC's that had WMC installed and was informed by the upgrade program that WMC would be removed as part of the upgrade.  It wasn't a problem as I never used WMC on that particular PC.  The PC that I actually use WMC on won't be upgraded until I've got another option for Copy Once content.

Your experience with the W10 upgrade is contrary to what Microsoft claims and what nearly all users have experienced and is only serving to make things more confusing for the original poster.  If he upgrades to Windows 10 based on your comments, it's extremely likely he'll lose his WMC installation in the process.

FWIW, I've heard of a few cases where the upgrade process didn't remove Windows Security Essentials, which ended up causing some problems post upgrade.  So clearly the upgrade process isn't perfect.
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stewart_pk

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Re: WMC Alternative Needs
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2016, 08:21:33 pm »

Live TV works.

Apart from the EPG not working here in Australia I still found it unusable.
Glitchy video performance, not auto refresh rate changing to 50Hz and changing channels takes longer than other software I've tried.
And I really don't like the JRiver Theater view interface for TV and to put it in perspective I like it quite a lot for everything else.
Whereas Media Portal is just wonderful for TV, better than WMC in my opinion, albeit it certainly takes time to setup.
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BartMan01

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Re: WMC Alternative Needs
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2016, 01:02:27 am »

If you need copy once functionality the new TiVO boxes with 4k support and the unified show lists (blends streaming and broadcast episodes in to one list) looks like the current best option.
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rec head

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Re: WMC Alternative Needs
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2016, 05:33:15 pm »

If you setup WMC to play MKV's and other files that WMC doesn't natively play then setting up MC isn't that bad. Once happy turn off updates.
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bahamas

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Re: WMC Alternative Needs
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2016, 02:32:16 am »

I appreciate the many responses (don't know what TAO1857's multiple 'ERROR' is telling me).

I am not disputing that J-MC can be configured to do most/all/more of the things WMC can/could - my comment was mostly about the initial experience, and - again: how hard can it be to offer a 'WMC-look-alike' configuration file? E.g., if your setup involves projection-only as a display device, initially starting in standard view is (very) inconvenient, as is the library import that does its own thing when,  initially, a simple folder hierarchy would be fine and allow for a level of initial familiarity: switchers could take it from there, maybe aided by a few explanatory pages for advanced options.

The availability of a comprehensive EPG is a problem - thank you, RoderickGI, for providing insights I was unaware of. Most naive switchers / newbies would likely benefit from these explanations as part of the setup process - and also as part of a function that 'you can do later'. Maybe more concrete pointers to commercial sources could be offered.

I am now into J-MC for a few days (got only time to play with it on WEs) - and it has become somewhat more familiar. Library management is still the tallest order for me, as is the WAF.

Again, thanks to all contributors,
Cheers!
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