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[JimH]

I have great respect for the technical expertise of the people at JRiver, on the forum, and in this very thread.  But in each of those groups there are people who have fallen in love with the technology and turned away from the customer experience. 

I hope you don't think that our team doesn't care about the customer experience.   I personally care a lot, but I find it difficult to please everyone.  In the end, we have to weigh our options and set a course.

I don't think it's all that hard to use MC for the basic tasks, and beginners should probably steer away from the complex stuff until they have their feet on the ground.

[jgreen]

JimH, no one is questioning the level of care or concern on the part of JRiver (or the forum members, because I was talking about them also).  I AM talking about the face that JRiver presents to the trial user, whose only contact with the company is the software that they've just downloaded.  They have not yet given JRiver their email address and they are trying out the software for the first time.

Software packages that have a certain level of complexity often open for the first time with a "quick start guide" or even videos.  One of MC's main selling points is that it can do so much more than the competitors.  Talk directly to these trial users by using a popup window to help them get started quickly and to provide the links that will help them gain expertise.  This is the customer experience that I'm talking about. 

Here's another way of looking at it.  I'm willing to bet that by the last week of the 30-day trial period the "conversion ratio" of trial users to paying customers is fairly high.  And it's easy to see why:  Somebody who's gotten to know this great software and its capabilities should have an easy time forking over the dough for a product this good.

But what about the first week of the trial?  How many customers are downloading the software and then giving up?  You want to engage these people from the moment they click on that link.  Most of your competitors are free of charge and you want fifty bucks for your software, which to me is a small price to pay for software this good.  So yoiu should make every effort you can to help those trial users find out how good your software is. 

Ultimately this is JRiver's decision to make.  Certainly the forum and wiki are great resources for someone who takes the time to investigate them.  But how many people are passing on your product without telling you why?

[JimH]

I would love to have a richer experience on startup, but it takes time and money.  Probably lots of money to do a decent job.

Would you like to do it in your spare time?

[jgreen]

Well, what I'm suggesting shouldn't take a lot of money or even a lot of time . . . why don't we agree to meet back here tomorrow? 

Until then, here's how I would start, if I was sitting in JimH's chair:


Welcome to JRiver's Media Center, the most powerful and feature-rich media experience on the planet!  Let's get started. . .

I want to play music . . .[step-by-step process]

I want to play a movie . . .[step-by-step process]

How do I keep track of my media?   [step-by-step process]

What's all the other stuff for?  [brief overview (only) along with links to the Wiki and a 2-for-1 membership certificate to the forum]

[trajanmcgill]

Here's the thing with customer experience, I think, or potential customer experience. This really goes back, I suppose to the question of competitive disadvantages.

The whole project comes off to a certain degree as a product for devoted tinkerers. For the same mindset as those who happily toy with different Linux distributions. Linux, too, has many competitive advantages. But why don't very many regular consumers go there? Because the front face it presents is one of great complexity with little guidance or hand-holding, and when you try to look up how to do something you get pages of Google results with "just sudo blah blah blah".

With a complex product like yours, it is a difficult problem to really solve well. No question. But with a complex product this it is also one of the single largest blockages to wider adoption, far greater in the amount of sales it blocks than feature set is, and the face that the whole package presents (web site plus documentation plus- especially- user interface) and the product's ease of use for complete beginners should therefore be treated as an interesting puzzle to solve or (more accurately) to continually keep addressing version by version in the very same way as one continually keeps addressing the creative improvement question of what new capabilities need to be added.

The two weakest points of customer experience:

1) UI. Good UI is simple on the surface, with complexity available when you want it. I'm personally (in most cases) willing to take complex on the surface if necessary in order to get complexity available when I want it, but most people are not. And just as much to the point in your market, most people's spouses are not. Even the 10-foot theater view has weird inconsistencies that make it way less intuitive than WMC or most others in that domain. Mainly this has to do with the hierarchy being inconsistently navigated on different levels, which I could explain more if you like, but also oddities like most options requiring a click but the "back" option choosing itself the moment you move onto it. WMC, you just move the highlight from thing to thing and click, and it acts exactly as you would guess. In JRiver MC that isn't quite true. But the main view, what you see on startup, well, it just looks complex. That isn't, IMO, necessary, because 90% of the time you're just going to listen or watch. Browsing your music library shouldn't feel like using SQL Server Management Studio. SQL Server Management Studio is extremely useful. I get massively productive things done with it. But, well, it is a power tool, not a casual use thing that you expect any random guest visiting your house to be able to use. (Am I exaggerating? A little bit. But less than I would like to be.)

2) Explanation. This isn't unrelated to UI, because intuitive UI can have simpler explanation to go with it. But the master documentation essentially being a collection of outdated and incomplete Wiki pages combined with dozens of forum threads that have ever been posted on a given topic, many of which relate to things that aren't working quite that way anymore...this goes back to the Linux comparison. JRiver MC has the type of scattered and partial documentation that says, "We don't have anybody paid to do documentation," which is inviting only to people who are happy trying to figure things out for themselves and spend 2 hours experimenting with settings and browsing message boards to solve their problem. Even a great many people who really are okay doing deep dives into fellow-customer-provided documentation of unknown accuracy that requires reading dozens of multi-page forum threads have a limit to how many products of that sort they can have in their lives, due to simple time and energy limits. More simply stated: sticky threads are not product documentation. User manuals do not consist of a haphazard conversation that you have to read all the way through in order to find your way to the part where the thing is explained.

Now my own customer experience isn't completely described by the above, because, well, obviously I continue to be a paying customer. But if what you really want to know is the experience found by the almost-customer, I think this is a lot of what that person encounters that prevents him or her from becoming a customer. You're not wrong that it takes serious investment to take these things to the kind of slick level that people dream of around here. But I do have a sneaking suspicion that you might be underestimating the return on that investment as compared with the return on other potential investments in the MC project.

[~OHM~]

I think anyone searching around for a new 'Player' is coming from somewhere (as I did) their not first time buyers of a PC. They have used WMC, ITunes, VLC and many others. It wasn't that difficult to play music or a movie that first time in MC. The biggest thing that caught me off guard my first time around MC18 was the 45 seconds till it was going to search and put my files in what I had no clue...this should be discontinued and a pop up explaining what needs to occur to import the data into MC, stating it will not move or change your files. Then point them to the Wiki and Interact.

I still remember playing music the first time with MC and I was blown away. Mind you I was still using a analog connection to my receiver and hadn't even gotten to the DSP settings. Then when I finally went full Digital sound, was once again blown away. I still have the analog wire hooked up just to show friends the difference between the two. So for the cost of MC how can anyone go wrong. I look back over the years and all the money spent on various software I never use anymore. My 2 cents

[blgentry]

Here's the thing with customer experience, I think, or potential customer experience. This really goes back, I suppose to the question of competitive disadvantages.

The whole project comes off to a certain degree as a product for devoted tinkerers.
[...]

With a complex product like yours, it is a difficult problem to really solve well. No question. But with a complex product this it is also one of the single largest blockages to wider adoption, far greater in the amount of sales it blocks than feature set is, and the face that the whole package presents (web site plus documentation plus- especially- user interface) and the product's ease of use for complete beginners should therefore be treated as an interesting puzzle to solve or (more accurately) to continually keep addressing version by version in the very same way as one continually keeps addressing the creative improvement question of what new capabilities need to be added.

[...]

Even the 10-foot theater view has weird inconsistencies that make it way less intuitive than WMC or most others in that domain. Mainly this has to do with the hierarchy being inconsistently navigated on different levels, which I could explain more if you like, but also oddities like most options requiring a click but the "back" option choosing itself the moment you move onto it.
[...]

JRiver MC has the type of scattered and partial documentation that says, "We don't have anybody paid to do documentation," which is inviting only to people who are happy trying to figure things out for themselves and spend 2 hours experimenting with settings and browsing message boards to solve their problem.
[...]

Now my own customer experience isn't completely described by the above, because, well, obviously I continue to be a paying customer. But if what you really want to know is the experience found by the almost-customer, I think this is a lot of what that person encounters that prevents him or her from becoming a customer. You're not wrong that it takes serious investment to take these things to the kind of slick level that people dream of around here. But I do have a sneaking suspicion that you might be underestimating the return on that investment as compared with the return on other potential investments in the MC project.

I found all of this to be extremely insightful.  I wonder if the JRiver staff ever tries to step outside of their own experience and look at the product with fresh eyes?  Fresh eyes, meaning how someone who's never seen the product before would view it.  The above points are well worth considering IMHO.

Brian.

[jachin99]

I agree a lot of what was said above, and I would like to add that getting about twenty allow cookie dialogue boxes when I first installed the program made me think I was installing an advertising platform on my PC more so than a media center suite.  It was simple after I managed to block them all, and they quit popping up but its kind of a turn off that just adds to other frustrations for potential first time users.  Borrowing from Kodi, maybe you could create a "basic settings" approach where on first start, the program has a minimal amount of configuration information thrown at first time users.  I still like the program but FWIW, there is my two cents.  

[JimH]

I don't know where you would get the "allow cookies" messages.

[imugli]

I would love to have a richer experience on startup, but it takes time and money.  Probably lots of money to do a decent job.

Would you like to do it in your spare time?

I want to play music . . .[step-by-step process]

I want to play a movie . . .[step-by-step process]

How do I keep track of my media?   [step-by-step process]

I've often thought of how this could be achieved (and accessible later if needed), and the answer I've though of is...

Why not use the browser window to set up a html / xml (however you wanted t do it) step by step intro, import, this is how to... process.

I realise this would cost time and money, but I think the little bit of polish it would give would be great.

[BryanC]

I think that new users just need some very wide perspective of what MC actually is. Most get confused by terms like library, database, tags, views, etc.

This could be accomplished by conveying to new users up front that MC is simply a database that catalogs and organizes the music and video files stored on their system. No files are actually stored within the program itself.

This alone would go a long ways to alleviate confusion about the program.

[imugli]

I think that new users just need some very wide perspective of what MC actually is. Most get confused by terms like library, database, tags, views, etc.

This could be accomplished by conveying to new users up front that MC is simply a database that catalogs and organizes the music and video files stored on their system. No files are actually stored within the program itself.

This alone would go a long ways to alleviate confusion about the program.

I think when most people hear the word database their reaction is  ?

iTunes is a database, but Apple would never call it that.

MC is an App (as this title has permeated the modern lexicon to describe any application you open on any device) that organises and plays your media. Great. That's what it is but how do people actually use it?

[jachin99]

I don't know where you would get the "allow cookies" messages.

I would have to confirm but i believe this is a setting in I.E. explorer.  I was referring more to the fact that something inside mc would store a cookie more than anything else.

[Spike1000]

I would love to have a richer experience on startup, but it takes time and money.  Probably lots of money to do a decent job.

Would you like to do it in your spare time?

I'm still amazed the only videos I've seen on MC are linked on another forum. Why don't JR produce any videos on MC?
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=121419.0
These are simple 'screen cam' videos shot in real time with a running commentary. These don't take long to produce and can convey a huge amount of information on a given topic in just a few minutes of video. They would save the JR staff spending quite so much time in the forum reading/answering questions so actually free up staff time in the long run.

I'm amazed that there is no 'getting started/walk through' a bit like this http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/436-jriver-media-center-17-detail/ available from JR yourselves. I feel you really really are missing a trick here.

Yes, these take some time and money, but honestly, how much? Please consider doing the business analysis and consider the advantages to the customer. You maybe are a bunch of talented techies at heart rather than cutting edge businessmen, but consider using those technical brains to analyse the take up of trial version to paying customers to see if you can increase the conversion percentage by providing more guidance/information to trial users.

I try and contribute to the forum with topics that I know about and have honestly considered doing a number of videos for you but my knowledge is not up to sniff and I may be giving out more dis-information that information  

Topics worthy of more help to new users (5 minute videos?):

1) Installation
2) Licensing/registration
3) Tagging fundamentals
4) The benefits of the database and introduction to views
5) Integrating streaming audio services (eg spotify) into MC. The limitations and why there are limitations.
6) Integrating streaming video services into MC (eg YouTube, Amazon, Netflix). The limitations and why there are limitations.
7) How to set up a client
8 ) MC remote control (IR and via an app)
9) Configuring your audio device
10) Setting up TV recording
11) Migrating from iTunes
12) Migrating from WMC.
13) Upgrading MC, the update channels and MC rapid development philosophy
14) Volume control

Advanced topics
1) Zones
2) Custom views
3) DNLA
4) File, copy, move, rename etc.
5) The 'secret' tagging window


As has been mentioned already the forum and the wiki does have this information but it's scattered all over the place and has many different people's ideas and points of view together with multiple version of MC. Handy for the experienced user but very confusing for the new user and could well turn many of them away due to the steep learning curve with insufficient initial guidance.

Spike

[blgentry]

I'm still amazed the only videos I've seen on MC are linked on another forum. Why don't JR produce any videos on MC?
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=121419.0

I'm always pretty surprised myself that there are so few JRiver videos around.  The above videos from Ted B are long and honestly a little hard to get through.  But they thought me several key things.  Those videos were the first time I ever saw and understood how Expressions can be used in the Tagging Window.  I was really impressed!  I started experimenting right away after seeing him do it on video.

The idea of several videos, which each introduce a concept or a topic, is a really good one IMHO.

Brian.

[Manfred]

I started with JRiver around 3 years ago and I am 

What was easy:

• Playing, Ripping CD's, Import Images, Playing Video through RO Standard, JRemote + setup
• Managing Pop/Jazz Music

What was not so easy:

• I regrouped my classical music four times before I was happy now. Some Wizard's to tag classical music with some preconfigured templates would be nice. The same is valid for Configuration of JRemote, Standard View and Theatre Views.
• Network (nothing to do with JRiver) - Tried three different network setup's and different device technologies. Now I am happy.

• Tweaking madVR (I know you like that we keep the RO HQ standard) - but one can improve image quality a lot by tweaking madVR and I really don't like the doom9 forum. It is not designed for the end user.
• Zone's are also not so easy to understand how to use them for a specific purpose

[BartMan01]

I would have to confirm but i believe this is a setting in I.E. explorer.  I was referring more to the fact that something inside mc would store a cookie more than anything else.

I have installed MC countless times over the years on a wide variety of systems and have never once in my life gotten any messages about allowing cookies during install. Did you download the MC install from this site/forum, or from some other source?

[jachin99]

From the site.  Im thinking maybe the start screen within the jriver site asks for them? When i decide to reinstall jriver i usually do a fresh os install before with it.  I dont remember seeing anything jriver specific for the cookie prompt.  If you already allow them why would jriver ask for them again with a fresh install?  I could be wrong but once the cookie is stored once is there until deleted

[Vocalpoint]

The idea of several videos, which each introduce a concept or a topic, is a really good one IMHO.

Been looking to dip my toes into the tutorial side of things - so I am going to take a crack at this.

Will report back when I have something worthy!

Cheers,

VP

[buckeyewalt]

I guess that I'm the text book case that everyone here is talking about. I have been with MC since 14 and have upgraded to 17 and 18 but no further. Why, just getting too complicated. All I ever wanted is a nice player (which I got) and be able to tag, move files around, and have a clean database where I can get rid of duplicates that pop up without too much trouble. Overall MC has failed. Don't get me wrong, it has a great sound that you can manipulate, and you can download songs easily, outside of that, everything else is a chore. Now for those who know a computer and this program inside and out, you guys are probably laughing at me right now. Everything you need to do outside of playing and downloading requires a click here, drop down here, highlight this, go to that, and click OK. The WIKI is almost useless because in order to use it, you have to know something about what you are doing! How about a single click to remove duplicates for starters. I can't begin to tell you how many threads I have seen just on tis topic alone. Plus some of the upgrades from one version to the next really doesn't do anything for me and I would venture to say to the majority of users. I run my music through a Logitech THX speakers and Sony MDR V6 headphones and quite frankly they produce some very good sounding music that I enjoy. I know that mine are not the ultimate set-up, but I also don't think my ears can detect things markedly better. Just make MC easier, spend some time and money to accomplish this and you will be rewarded.