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[markbrauer]

Last time I burned a CD, Media Center gave me the ability to set burning speed between 1X and MAX. Today when I go to burn my only choice is MAX. This is unacceptable. My drive makes very poor CDs when used at max speed. For the best audio quality I find I must use 1X. This MAX-speed-only defect must have arrived in a recent update.

This same thing happened a couple years ago with an earlier version of Media Center. I had to wait a few updates before it was repaired and I could burn good sounding CDs again.

Please fix.

[blgentry]

My drive makes very poor CDs when used at max speed. For the best audio quality I find I must use 1X.

I don't understand.  Does your drive produce errors at high speeds?  Do you get clicks, pops, bops and boops on your CDs when burned at higher speeds?  If not, what do you mean by "poor CDs"?

Brian.

[markbrauer]

When burned at MAX speed on my drive, CDs are a shadow of the original. They lose dynamics, have kind of a muted sound, and have an overall harshness especially on loud passages. CDs burned at 1X speed mimic the sound of the original disc pretty well.

Early on I just felt that burned discs were inherently of lower audio quality. Then I realized that the default MAX burning speed was the problem. I started exclusively using 1X in the burn settings and was very happy with the sound quality. Then one day, back in version 19 or maybe 18, that option disappeared In Media Center. At that time I complained to JRiver and a couple of updates later the function returned.

Now, in version 21, the same thing has happened again. Burn speed defaults to MAX and cannot be changed.

The only uses I have for Media Center are ripping and burning (my player software is server based) so this loss of ability to control burning speed is a huge issue for me - fully 1/2 the value of the product.

[JimH]

That isn't the way CD burning works.  If there were errors, you might hear sound defects, but loudness or overall quality would not be affected.

Do you have another drive you can try to see if the problem is specific to the drive you're using?  I don't think there is a general problem with MC's burning.

[defenz0r]

That isn't the way CD burning works.  If there were errors, you might hear sound defects, but loudness or overall quality would not be affected.

Do you have another drive you can try to see if the problem is specific to the drive you're using?  I don't think there is a general problem with MC's burning.

Then tell me, why burning at lower speeds raises the compatibility to different Devices/Players.

[JimH]

It could well be an error in burning the disc, but your description of a generally lower quality sound is not likely.

[markbrauer]

That isn't the way CD burning works.  If there were errors, you might hear sound defects, but loudness or overall quality would not be affected.

Do you have another drive you can try to see if the problem is specific to the drive you're using?  I don't think there is a general problem with MC's burning.

All I can tell you is what I hear. I burn CDs mostly for portable use. But in noticing this quality issue, I have tried many discs on a friends very good living room system fronted by the excellent Oppo 105 disc player. Original CDs on his system sound fabulous. Discs burned at MAX always lose musicality - they just plain sound boring. Pretty much all the "audiophile" qualities on the originals are diminished - depth, soundstage, dynamics, etc. There is sort of a veil over the music.

Discs burned at 1X have none of these problems and sound exactly like or very close to the original. This is what I hear, and my very experienced friend concurs. So there could be problems with the drive, but it CAN make excellent CDs - at 1X speed

The second drive in my PC has always proven to make poorer CDs, no matter what the speed.

(As a test I just booted up Windows Media Player and it indeed offers to let me change burn speeds.)

My big question is WHY has this burn-speed option been removed from Media Center? It seems like a basic function that allows best use of various drives. And it has worked perfectly in the past.

And then my REALLY BIG question is will this be "fixed" or should I be looking for another burning software?

[JimH]

It won't be "fixed".

[Matt]

But just for the record, picking slower speeds should be there.  That's been a feature of the program forever and should still be there in MC22.

[blgentry]

I'm extremely, extremely skeptical of your claims.  But who cares what I have to say.

Good luck with your CD burning.

Brian.

[markbrauer]

It won't be "fixed".

So, are you saying that "it won't be fixed" as in "it's not broken" or are you saying that "control of burn speed has disappeared from Media Center, never to return"?  Either way, it seems you are telling me I should be looking for another burning program?

I did check the board and found my post from about one year ago pointing out that control of burn speed was missing in version 20.
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=98872.0
As you can read, I got no help from the board back then. But after a couple of minor updates the function did return, and continued to work in version 21 until just recently. So maybe someone heard my plea. Hope it happens again.

And for those who are skeptical, at the time the burn speed function returned to version 20 I burned two CDs of the same material, one at 1X and one at MAX. I then gave them to my friend with the Oppo 105 and excellent system, putting no identifying marks on them, and he was able to easily identify the 1X burn as higher quality.

[RoderickGI]

I'm still using MC21.0.90. The attached image shows all the burn speeds available on my optical drive.

If your drive is only showing MAX speed, I suspect that there is a problem with detecting the drive capabilities. I believe that each optical drive is queried for its capabilities, and suspect that like other programs, MC uses that information to show the speeds available to select.

If the above is correct, then I suspect that in the previous case, and in the current case, something has changed on your PC, and the drive isn't reporting its capabilities correctly. Could there be a loose connection? Could a driver have been changed? Has your PC built up a covering of dust, so that it isn't cooling properly? Is it an old PC, or does it have an old power supply, that may be dropping voltage occasionally?

Most importantly, do other CD burning applications show all speeds, or just MAX speed?




For the record, I can think of reasons why a lower burn speed would create a CD that subjectively appears to produce better sound.

It could be due to smaller or less readable burned pits on the CD, or slight incompatibilities between drives, combined with the error handling on a audio optical drive, which aims to avoid skips and delays, and continue playing regardless of errors. Those errors don't always result in pops, crackle, or other artifacts. As listening is a very subjective thing, such attempts by the audio player to correct errors could be perceived as a reduction in the quality of the music. When optical drives read data disks they don't accept errors, and keep trying until the data read is bit-perfect. That isn't always the case with optical drives in an audio player, or even computer based optical drives that are reading audio CDs, where the drive designers have included logic in the firmware or drivers to play on regardless.

However if the data read from the disk copy is identical to the data on the original CD or music track, then there would be no difference in sound at all. It is the read and error correction process that may be failing. (Note: The data burned to a CD is always going to be bit perfect. The data read from a CD may not be.)

So, how old are your optical drives (both of them), and were they good quality drives when you bought them? With some research you will find recommendations on which drives are best, and which are not worth using. Also note that the quality of the CD media you are using could be a contributing factor.

BOTTOM LINE: JRiver MC still supports multiple burn speeds, based on the capabilities your drive reports to Windows.

[audioriver]

Reported available writing speeds I think also depend on the discs themselves, not just the drive. Have you tried a disc from another batch or brand? Maybe you have a defective batch. Also, if you are hearing lower quality audio with higher writing speeds, perhaps you are using low-quality discs or a defective burner (or your player doesn't handle them correctly, that's also possible). This shouldn't happen with good discs and writing speeds that do *not* exceed the discs' supported speed. For example, a CD-R disc might offer 48x as official maximum speed, but if you set 'Max' on the burning software it might go up to 52x. That's not recommended. I'd pick sth. in the middle, like 24x but certainly not 1x. That's 1990's stuff and I think most drives don't even support it any more. What kind of discs do you use?

[markbrauer]

Thanks to both Roderick and Audioriver. This is the kind of advice I was hoping for. Now I have ideas to work with.

First the good news:
"BOTTOM LINE: JRiver MC still supports multiple burn speeds, based on the capabilities your drive reports to Windows."
Thanks for the screenshot of the burn speed settings. Shows it is definitely a problem on my end. It's just that both times I have lost the burn-speed option have occurred just after a MC update. And the first time it corrected itself with a later update - no influence from me other than complaining on this board.

"If your drive is only showing MAX speed, I suspect that there is a problem with detecting the drive capabilities... I suspect that in the previous case, and in the current case, something has changed on your PC, and the drive isn't reporting its capabilities correctly."
This makes the most sense to me.


"Most importantly, do other CD burning applications show all speeds, or just MAX speed?"
The only other burning program I have is Windows Media Player (which I used for the very first time to check this) and it gives the option of 4 speeds from "low" to "high" with no indication of actual speed. I am planning to download a free or "demo" version of some other program and see what it reports for speeds.

"So, how old are your optical drives (both of them), and were they good quality drives when you bought them?"
The PC is older, a very powerful Dell Precision workstation. For the last year and a half it has been stable, the only software changes the inevitable Windows updates - no driver updates. One month ago I did install a new power supply but MC worked properly after that. Nonetheless I will check all connections. Could Windows updates cause the problem? As far as drive quality goes, when setting up Exact Audio Copy it reported that the drive I am using was the more capable one. The other is a Blu-Ray drive that was added to the PC more recently. I initially made test burns using both drives and the Blu-Ray definitely produced poorer sounding CDs. Right now it is disconnected but I will hook it up and and give it a try.


"Also note that the quality of the CD media you are using could be a contributing factor."
   and
"Reported available writing speeds I think also depend on the discs themselves, not just the drive."   
I have always bought and had good luck with big stacks of Verbatim discs rated for 48X. I did not change disc brand or batch at the time the problem manifested itself. But I will sample some from farther down the stack.

"a CD-R disc might offer 48x as official maximum speed,  but if you set 'Max' on the burning software it might go up to 52x. That's not recommended. I'd pick sth. (something?) in the middle, like 24x but certainly not 1x."
Last time I burned, MC gave me the option of 1X to 48X. I know this for sure because after the "MAX" problem a year ago I always look at the speed settings before burning. When I chose 1X it was because I didn't have the patience to try multiple other options, 4X - 8X - 12X - etc, to determine which was the highest-speed that returned good quality. Didn't seem like 1X would hurt, and I am never in a hurry burning - I start it and walk away.

And finally:
"For the record, I can think of reasons why a lower burn speed would create a CD that subjectively appears to produce better sound."
I agree wholly.

So thanks again for taking the time to help. I'll report results.

P.S. I just got an email suggesting I download MC22. Maybe I'll try that first and my problem will be magically fixed.

[RoderickGI]

Reported available writing speeds I think also depend on the discs themselves, not just the drive.

A good point. It is the combination of the drive and the media that determine which Read and Write speeds are available.

I tend to use the free version 8 of Nero InfoTool to check drive and media capabilities, because it separates out the Drive and Disc capabilties. It is a bit old now though, and later versions tend to have adware in them. There is a version 11 available here which I think is okay, but I haven't installed it so can't guarantee that.

Then there is the ever popular ImgBurn, which is up to version 2.5.8.0, although last updated 16th June 2013! Note that Norton 360 tells me the ImgBurn site is unsafe, but it is fine. ImgBurn has a Discovery Mode that will show you the available write speeds and other data. Information about the drive is found under Tools>Drive>Capabilities. The results are the same as Nero InfoTool, which is comforting, and ImgBurn is faster to analyse the drive and disc, and display results. It is just a bit more complex, and of course is a burning tool as well as an information tool.

Note that both applications require a blank CD to be in the drive to determine the available speeds, and both show a much shorter list of compatible speeds than JRiver MC shows as available speeds. On my drive, for example, 1x is not shown as an option, and for that reason I wouldn't use 1x on the Drive/Disc combination. I would use one of the supported speeds, for example I tend to use 24x, but 4x is also available if I want to do a slow disc Write.

It is possible for optical discs to "go off" over time, depending on their storage, quality, etc. I read a story recently about Bly-ray discs failing because they were supplied in PVC slip covers, which out gassed and damaged the recording surface. But a stack of Verbatim discs without material between the discs, particularly just CDs, shouldn't have that problem, or any other. CD technology is mature enough that they are pretty reliable. Do check who the real manufacturer of the discs is though, as Verbatim did go through a phase of rebranding other manufacturer's discs. They may still be doing that. ImgBurn identifies the manufacturer of the disc, while Nero provides the manufacturer's ID. My current stack of no-name CDs are made by CMC Magnetics Corp. 

There is a heap of information on the internet about disc manufacturers and who owns whom, who rebrands what discs, and so on.

I don't know what has caused your problem with the speeds available in MC, but certainly Windows Updates could be responsible, and an update of MC could fix a problem created by Windows Update. I assume that MC uses some Windows components for its disc writing capabilities, rather than write code to do that from scratch. So it could be as simple as a DLL or a COM component change in Windows, or a MC component needing to be re-registered after a Windows Update. Even a re-installation of the same version of MC may fix the problem, and display all write speeds again.

Anyway, no need to change CD burning tool you use. MC does a fine job, and will again once this little hiccup is corrected.

[blgentry]

I'm rather amused that we are talking about burning CDs here.  This is a forum dedicated to one of the best digital media players on the planet.  Maybe I'm the only one that sees the irony. 

Good luck to the OP.

Brian.

[RoderickGI]

Well, I certainly saw the irony of worrying about a 700 MB, 16 bit, 44.1 KHz format storage device.

Particularly when my phone can carry 216 GB of data and play high quality audio formats. Or I could buy a 512 GB USB 3.1 stick that is three times faster than my best hard drive, or even a 512 GB SDXC memory card that will match the speed of my best hard drive. I can even get a 200 GB microSDXC card, which is what I would use in my phone, currently sporting a 64 GB microSDXC card. Thinking about capacity and versatility, the last 2 GB USB stick I received was... free. A give away. You can't even buy them any more, at least in any major store. I have a friend who shares videos by handing out $10 16 GB USB sticks, because it is easier than CDs or DVDs, can carry more formats that will work natively in the hardware that people tend to have, and be more compatible and versatile.

So I hear what you are saying. But the basics still need to work, and there are still plenty of situations where only a CD will work, like in a older car stereo systems.

[markbrauer]

I haven't needed to burn a CD lately but today I fired up MC today and it immediately updated to 21.0.90. Thankfully, all the burn speed options have returned to the burn settings. No longer am I stuck burning at MAX speed. Happy again!

Thanks to those responsible for this fix.

[Skeezix]

Glad to hear that your problem was fixed by reinstalling MC.

I have similar problems. Some of my CDs that I burned using MC produce a deteriorating sound, like:

a) A repetitive "scratching" sound (chissht-chissht-chissht that repeats about 3 time a second and starts about 2/3s the way into the CD and gets louder and louder. Eventually the individual sounds merge into one near the end of the CD.

b) A slight dropout in the sound starting as early as around 1/3 into the CD. The dropouts are accompanied by an intermittent "jumping ahead a count or two" as displayed on the player, and eventually the sound just stops but the CD continues to turn.

Most of my CDs were burned as MP3, but about 1/4 of them were burned as Audio CDs. I have burned about 150 CDs. The very early ones (ca. 2002 or so) were burned at the maximum speed of 52X as shown on their labels, but I soon changed that to 48X, then 24X and now I burn them at 16X as Audio CDs.

All CDs are Verbatim. Some play on my 2016 Hyundai without problems, but have problems when played on my Alpine 9813 stereo (installed in the other vehicle in 2004). A few will not play more than 5-10 minutes on the Alpine but play nicely elsewhere, and then play problem-free when tried again on the Alpine (go figger)...

Except for a couple of 5 to 10-day trips, the CDs live in their jewel cases in my office and are not played at all. And aside for those trips, I never play the CDs. At all. (I just play the music directly from the computer at night.)

Again, it's good to know that you have resolved your problem.