Topic: Video card comparison (Read 16337 times)

Gatherum · « **on:** August 14, 2016, 07:11:19 pm »

I'm dabbling in the idea of investing in a discreet video card for my HTPC, in order to take advantage of NNEDI3. I've found a video card I like, but there are two versions. Assuming NNEDI3 as the sole purpose for this upgrade, and based on the specs, would the cheaper variant work just fine? Moreover, can this video card even handle NNEDI3 to produce any meaningful result?

For the record, I am currently using madVR via this APU. It's doing respectably well for an APU, with super-xbr enabled for the chroma upscaling and film mode forced, but still drops frames on a fairly regular basis (albeit largely unnoticeably).

On that note, is there enough of a difference between super-xbr and NNEDI3 to justify a discreet card, based on the information above?

If anybody needs a full(er) HTPC spec, let me know, and I'll post a Speccy analysis.

bulldogger · « **Reply #1 on:** August 15, 2016, 06:22:37 pm »

The cheaper variant will work just fine. It has all of the memory you will need. The more expensive card has more memory. Yes the NNEDI3 will work with the card but it is a matter of degree, setting you use. A lot will depend upon what resolutions you plan to scale.

Gatherum · « **Reply #2 on:** August 19, 2016, 05:22:52 am »

I appreciate it. I've added it to my wish list.

Gatherum · « **Reply #3 on:** August 20, 2016, 11:05:20 pm »

So the smallest resolution I conceivably plan to scale is roughly SD DVD quality at 720 x 480i. I'll be upscaling this to a 1920 x 1080p plasma screen. What is the highest NNEDI3 setting I could get away with using this card and having those intentions?

bhampster · « **Reply #4 on:** August 30, 2016, 10:01:25 am »

Be sure to look into how well AMD works.

I haven't had a Radeon card in maybe over 10 years but I seem to read about a lot of trouble with ATI/AMD compared to going with Geforce.

And the latest Geforce cards now have a $200 option. (but it's real gimped so the $250 option seems better)

-Brian

Gatherum · « **Reply #5 on:** September 04, 2016, 05:29:52 pm »

Hmm...odd. My experience tells me the opposite. My old rig had a GeForce that exhibited frequent video issues (blanking out and refreshing, only to display green screens in place of any flash content, for instance), presumably due to driver issues. Haven't had an issue yet with my AMD APU (though I'm not certain it's a fair comparison to one of their discreet cards).

RoderickGI · « **Reply #6 on:** September 04, 2016, 09:12:28 pm »

I upgraded to a discrete graphics card so that I could start using RO HQ, and hence use the new 3D capabilities of MC.

I was originally going with a "GeForce® GTX 960 GAMING 4G" to get a quiet card. One which would turn off the fans for most media viewing due to the low load. But then the "GeForce® GTX 1060 GAMING X 6G" came out based on the Pascal architecture, rather than the Maxwell architecture of the 960. I wanted the best future proofing I could get, and the 1060 provides later versions of some standards, so I went with that. The supported HDMI and HDCP standards were important to me.

HDMI 2.0b (Increased bandwidth up to 18Gbps to support 4K@50/60 (2160p))
HDCP 2.2 (For 4K support)
DirectX 12 API with feature level 12_1
DisplayPort 1.4
OpenGL 4.5

I use an AMD card in my workstation, but I wanted a quieter, less power hungry card in the HTPC. Hence, NVidia. I have had bad experiences with noisy blower fans, such as used on the RX 480.

I see the RX 480 supports HDMI 2.0b, DP 1.4, DX 12, but does it support HDCP 2.2? I see some reviews say it does, but lots of comments are just "it has HDMI 2.0, so it has HDCP 2.2", which is not correct. The AMD website seems silent on the matter.

Could be important for a PC playing media.

bhampster · « **Reply #7 on:** September 05, 2016, 04:48:31 pm »

I recently got the Nvidia 1060 also. And I love it ! I thought I would need to go back to gaming to get the "goods" from this card and while it does good things with games, I'm very impressed with it's use within JRiver.!

Most of my content is Blu to a 1080p screen so I guess I don't do lots of scaling of the image ... but this card is much better than the GTX750 I was using. It's more responsive and the PQ is amazing.

It's hard for me to quantify all the ways it seems better but it really seems much better than before. One way I noticed is when switching the video I'm watching or doing a chapter skip.

-Brian

RoderickGI · « **Reply #8 on:** September 05, 2016, 05:21:41 pm »

Good choice Brian.

I was playing with madVR settings yesterday for playback of old, low resolution movies, using the new 1060.

It did quite a good job upscaling, and did an excellent job automatically removing black bars from around the image in one movie.

Unfortunately with settings turned right up for such movies I managed to crash madVR playing a recorded 1080i sports TV program. I changed settings back and all was good.

So I still have some work to do in understanding what settings the 1060 can handle, but it is doing a very good job. Any 1080i/1080p video plays extremely well.

So, I will have to spend some time learning more about madVR, and the capabilities of the 1060, to fine tune settings.

Gatherum · « **Reply #9 on:** September 10, 2016, 12:24:24 am »

So I might not really need that video card after all: I purchased a Corsair Hydro H60, partly as a first step in this and partly because I was tired of all the fan noise that my HTPC was making simply being turned on for a while. The latter issue was remedied right away to my utter delight. After using AMD Overdrive to overclock the CPU to roughly 4.2 GHz (the maximum it could handle during a stress test with this cooler) and tinkering with the madVR settings, I am managing to squeeze out chroma upscaling with NNEDI3 at 16 Neurons with no dropped frames. It's the best I can do with this rig, and it's relatively rudimentary, but for having no discreet GPU, I am quite proud right now. Upscaled SD content has never looked better.

...This is especially fortunate, since the radiator that comes with the H60 removes about an inch of clearance from an already-tight chassis that requires a hypothetical GPU length of about 10 inches or less (it's the Silverstone FT03-MINI). Could be that it might still fit, but who knows? I'm not averse to buying one in the future, but for now, I'd say that I'm set.

A mere $60, very well-spent.

bhampster · « **Reply #10 on:** September 10, 2016, 04:41:54 pm »

The nvidia 1060 comes in a short card and it price comparable to what you were thinking. (Around 250)

Be sure to give it a look. Seems like a great GPU as far as GPU for JRiver goes.

I'm really enjoying mine. I want to sell the GTX750 I replaced but having used the 1060 .. I don't think anyone should be a 750 at all.

Gatherum · « **Reply #11 on:** September 10, 2016, 11:05:27 pm »

I'm back, and I regret to admit that I have switched to Red October Standard, due to issues relating to madVR's deinterlacing and film mode.

The problem I am having is that I cannot seem to enable NNEDI3-16 in chroma along with artifact removal and all the other recommended goodies (within reason) in SD interlaced content and expect to avoid frame drops without forcing film mode. The problem with that is that it introduces cadence breaks which, regardless of my newfangled processing power, lead to what I can best describe as hung frames. Essentially, the video "chops" every once in a while. This occurred before I installed the new cooling solution and overclocked. I used to think that it might be a source issue, or a shortcoming in processing power. I suppose it technically still is the latter, considering that I cannot upscale interlaced content outside of film mode without it looking like complete ass.

If anybody has any recommendations on tweaks I can make while retaining NNEDI3-16 in chroma, I'd appreciate it, if only as an experiment at this point. Until then, Red October Standard actually looks rather indistinguishable.

To that end, is there a way to export my madVR settings for review here?

I suppose that's another question: does anybody actually notice any real difference between ROS and a properly-configured ROHQ? I know intuitively that the latter is "better" from a quality standpoint, but I also wonder if it's one of those cases in which JRiver's default background LAV configuration is special and matches it anyway (where madVR is really only better if you're using something like Media Player Classic - Home Cinema).

For the record, I'm still happy with the cooling--HTPC is so quiet that my roommate didn't even know that I had left it on all day while I was out.

JimH · « **Reply #12 on:** September 11, 2016, 06:12:28 am »

Quote from: Gatherum on September 10, 2016, 11:05:27 pm

To that end, is there a way to export my madVR settings for review here?

For madVR questions, please use the madVR thread on Doom9.

RoderickGI · « **Reply #13 on:** September 13, 2016, 07:52:49 pm »

While detailed questions about madVR setup are best posted on the Doom9 forum as Jim says, I can say that when I turned up all settings in madVR using my 1060 that old, low resolution movies were improved amazingly. Not perfect, because the data just isn't there. But way more watchable.

Unfortunately when I tried to watch some interlaced live TV it actually crashed madVR when using the same settings. So I will need to do some more tweaking, and get over to Doom9 myself.

bhampster · « **Reply #14 on:** September 16, 2016, 07:32:55 am »

I think the nvidia 1060 should have it's own thread regarding JRiver use. It fits like a glove for me. Does good 2D, good 3D, its quiet and priced low and even a short board.

In the mean time I posted a few times in the 1080/1070 thread.

Maybe I will start a 1060 thread in the HTPC section on AVS... I don't think I use the doom forum ..

-Brian

BryanC · « **Reply #15 on:** September 22, 2016, 02:43:35 pm »

You should check out the super-xbr chroma upscaling option. It requires a lot less power than NNEDI3 for similar results (IMO--I normally only upscale 720p to 1080p).

RoderickGI · « **Reply #16 on:** September 22, 2016, 04:49:16 pm »

I believe I just dropped down to Jinc when I had problems. I need to learn a bit more about the settings, but I will try out Super-xbr Chroma Upscaling. Based on the little diagram in the madVR settings page, if I am interpreting it correctly, Super-xbr would provide a sharper image, but with more ringing and artifacts.

Gatherum · « **Reply #17 on:** September 22, 2016, 04:51:31 pm »

I suppose the question, then, is how resource-intensive anti-ringing filtering and artifact removal would be when paired with super-xbr.

I'll try it when I get home next week.

RoderickGI · « **Reply #18 on:** September 22, 2016, 05:07:00 pm »

Actually I just checked, and I already had anti-ringing selected with Jinc.

Again, based on the diagram, with Anti-ringing off, Jinc has more ringing than Super-xbr, and activating the anti-ringing filter with Super-xbr doesn't change ringing at all. I don't have any artifact removal set under the Processing settings. Of course actual viewing tests are required, as well as looking at the CPU and GPU load.

But we are probably getting a bit off topic here. Oh well...

Gatherum · « **Reply #19 on:** September 23, 2016, 01:03:46 am »

No, no. This is fine. While I understand Jim's sentiment, I find it a lot more sensible to consult other JRiver users about how MadVR works for them in the context of MC than to register yet another forum account on another forum like Doom9 to consult with those users about their experience with other players (probably MPC-HC).

Though, that begs the question: how extensive is the (theoretical) overlap between the adoption of MC and MadVR?

RoderickGI · « **Reply #20 on:** September 23, 2016, 01:47:58 am »

Quote from: Gatherum on September 23, 2016, 01:03:46 am

No, no. This is fine. While I understand Jim's sentiment, I find it a lot more sensible to consult other JRiver users about how MadVR works for them

Actually I feel the same way somewhat, as I would like a sort of summary of assistance in getting the best out of madVR in MC on my hardware. But madVR functionality and hardware changes so often that it would be hard to do the subject justice here. Hence, the Doom9 alternative.

There is a two and a half year old madVR guide that may help a bit available here: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,80253.0.html

Quote from: Gatherum on September 23, 2016, 01:03:46 am

Though, that begs the question: how extensive is the (theoretical) overlap between the adoption of MC and MadVR?

Well MC is primarily a DirectShow application, at least on Windows. It doesn't need madVR to show video, and in fact RO Standard doesn't use madVR, only RO HQ does. But MC is pretty wed to LAV Filters and madVR for high quality audio and video. I don't see that as an issue, even though Microsoft seems to be trying to move away from DirectShow, it will be around for quite some time.

millst · « **Reply #21 on:** September 23, 2016, 02:53:53 am »

I think this one is the best guide:

http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=259188

Most of the rest have misinformation or are out of date.

Regardless, people should probably just stick with one of the JRiver defaults or be willing to invest the time. There is no "best" setting so if you're a videophile you just need to sit down, take the time, and decide what tradeoffs you prefer.

-tm

Gatherum · « **Reply #22 on:** October 19, 2016, 05:27:30 pm »

So I tried following that guide. It's very well-written and clear. I was able to optimize a number of things, especially with regards to specifying the resolutions my display is capable of, and was even able to improve the visuals on my display in general by tinkering with the colour space settings.

Ultimately, there's just not a distinguishable difference between a super-xbr or NNEDI3-16 configuration and ROS to justify the (potential) performance hits. Maybe if I get a much more powerful video card, I can try to go crazy with it, but as it stands, ROS provides a more-than-adequate viewing experience which, once again, is a testament to how easy the folks at JRiver make it for their consumers.

I appreciate the input from all of you. Thank you so much.

millst · « **Reply #23 on:** October 19, 2016, 06:10:38 pm »

Yep, mucking around with madVR settings is for hardcore videophiles. On content that is well-mastered, the differences are minor, at best.

It's more important to focus on luma, not chroma, since our eyes don't have as much color resolution. 16 neurons isn't enough for luma and makes things worse (artifacts).

-tm

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Author Topic: Video card comparison (Read 16337 times)