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[mdx1]

Does anyone use JRemote to play music from a JRiver server on a Windows PC to a Sonore Sonicoriter SE or a similar DLNA renderer such as the Yamaha WXC-50?

I have JRiver 21 & 22 installed on a Windows computer and use JRemote on my iPad to control the music.  It works well for a while and then the music would stop.  JRemote would say "Nothing is currently playing".  At this moment, I noticed the Sonicoriter SE would disappear from the zone list on JRemote and JRiver. 

I can use the MPad app to play music directly to the Sonicoriter SE and the playback does not stop.  But the metadata on the MPad is not as nice as JRiver.  Also the detection of the new music files are not as dynamic as the JRiver/JRemote combo.

Is there any special setting one needs to do on JRiver for this work smoothly?

[JimH]

What is the complete version of MC22 that you have installed?

[mdx1]

MC22 is at 22.055 and set to get to get the latest.  Mainly I have been using MC21 controlled by JRemote.

I am also testing the Yamaha WXC-50 with the JRemote/JRiver combo and the playback also stops for no reason.

[mdx1]

I have some success with MC 22 on Sonicorbiter SE (SOSE) when using the Play Doctor generated list on JRemote.  It played for a long time without stopping.

Later on I wanted to play two albums and was not successful.  I added the first album with Play Now and added the second album with Add to "Now Playing".  Before the first album finished playing, I look at the queue and noticed there was only 1 item on the list, the 2nd of 3 tracks of the first album.  The 2nd album and the rest tracks of the first one have disappeared.  After that track is done, JRemote stopped.

This is the problem I have been fighting even since I replaced the living room HTPC with a DLNA Renderer and Endpoint, SOSE.  I do hope this problem gets resolved because I am so used to using JRemote to play music and getting consistent results.  I would hate to switch to different software because of this.

[AndrewFG]

Use the right click menu on the renderer in MC playing now, and try the following settings...

1. Disable SetNext support
2. Disable Transport Events

[mdx1]

Thank you for the reply.  Unfortunately, setting both did not help.  The music stopped before finishing all the tracks for a single album.

Besides, Disabling SetNext support breaks the gapless playback and causes a pause between tracks.  I first noticed that in MC21. 

[mdx1]

Use the right click menu on the renderer in MC playing now, and try the following settings...

1. Disable SetNext support
2. Disable Transport Events

Last night, I created a custom DLNA server for SOSE, started by adding a Legacy UPnP device and modified a few things based on the recommendation by your software.  The result: standard definition music (FLAC 16/44.1) played a long time, 60-90 minutes before it stopped.  I was quite encouraged.  This evening, I decided to try the high definition music (FLAC 24/192 and 24/96).  It lasted two tracks before it quit.  JRemote/JRiver MC22 was used for playback.

Attached is the report.  Please advise.

[mdx1]

Andrew,

Attached is the report for the Yamaha WXC-50 Renderer report.  Please advise.

[AndrewFG]

Thanks for the report. It shows that the Yamaha exhibited an error on the "Play test file" (start ok / time out). This means that it is not reporting the STOPPED status when it reaches the end of a track. And MC needs to know the STOPPED status to decide when to push the next track. I suggest trying the Ignore Transport Events setting on MC. Please let me know how you get on. It's possible that we could find out more about the error by running more tests. But if Ignore Transport Events works for you, let's try to avoid that..

[MikeO]

This sounds suspiciously like what I am seeing. I have Mc 22 built 55 as a server and a Cambridge audio CXN controlled by jremote. Similar sort of set up

I see the same tracks play fine and then just stop. I have had so many issues with my new network devices I thought that was it, I have reverted to my old router and still see it

It's not often and unpredictable, I was putting it down to wi fi drop outs

Mike

[MikeO]

Ps I also see the CXN dropping off the devices list in mc

[mdx1]

My devices (Sonore SOSE and Yamaha WXC-50) are both wired to a Gigabit Ethernet network but those two zones still can disappear sometimes for no reason from MC21 and 22.

[mdx1]

Thanks for the report. It shows that the Yamaha exhibited an error on the "Play test file" (start ok / time out). This means that it is not reporting the STOPPED status when it reaches the end of a track. And MC needs to know the STOPPED status to decide when to push the next track. I suggest trying the Ignore Transport Events setting on MC. Please let me know how you get on. It's possible that we could find out more about the error by running more tests. But if Ignore Transport Events works for you, let's try to avoid that..

I tried running the Whitebear DMR Analyser tests on 3 computers, two running MC22 on Win8.1 and one MC21 on Win7.  The results can be different on different machines, and even on the same machine at different times.  At times, the Analyser would show only computers and those two renderers would be missing from the list.  I had to run a few times and restarting MC in between to get the those renders to show up.  What can be the cause of random disappearance?

On one Win8.1 computer running MC22, the Whitebear DMR Analyser suggested the "Ignore Transport Event" DLNA controller option to be checked.  It is checked for both renderers on this computer.

All I need is to have the DLNA working from one MC computer but they all seem to be flaky.  By the way, playing 16/44.1 FLAC files tend to be more stable (last longer) than high data rate 24/96 and 24/192 files.  Can this be a buffering issue?  Is there a buffer setting?

What does PCM L 16 mean?  Does it apply to 16-bit only? The analyzer does not want me to set PCM L 24 even though the 24/192 and 24/96 files are having the most issues. 

[mdx1]

Attached are two new analyzer outputs from my second Win8.1 MC 22 machine for Sonore SOSE and Yamaha WXC-50.

[AndrewFG]

Thanks for the renderer reports..

I tried running the Whitebear DMR Analyser tests on 3 computers, two running MC22 on Win8.1 and one MC21 on Win7.  The results can be different on different machines, and even on the same machine at different times.  At times, the Analyser would show only computers and those two renderers would be missing from the list.  I had to run a few times and restarting MC in between to get the those renders to show up.  What can be the cause of random disappearance?

This intermittent coming and going could indicate several issues..

• Perhaps you are on a wifi network with high interference rates and or dropouts. If possible used wired Ethernet instead. And if not, then check signal strength on all devices.
• Perhaps your devices (the PCs and the players) are getting their IP addresses via DHCP (Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol); and if their DHCP lease expires, and they renew the lease, your router is assigning them a different IP address than they had before. Try either a) setting each device to have a RESERVED IP address on the router's DHCP configuration, or b) do not use DHCP but set static IP addresses instead. Dynamic+Reserved is preferred over Static because the router will always ensure that there are no duplicates, and that the addresses are within its routable sub- net
• Related topic to the above. Perhaps one or more of your devices has the same IP address as another.
• Perhaps your router is not properly routing UDP Multicasts or UDP Unicasts.

On one Win8.1 computer running MC22, the Whitebear DMR Analyser suggested the "Ignore Transport Event" DLNA controller option to be checked.  It is checked for both renderers on this computer.

Wait until we have solved the network stability issues above. Once you have a stable LAN, then run the DMRA again, and it will tell you the final best settings for all devices.

All I need is to have the DLNA working from one MC computer but they all seem to be flaky.  By the way, playing 16/44.1 FLAC files tend to be more stable (last longer) than high data rate 24/96 and 24/192 files.  Can this be a buffering issue?  Is there a buffer setting?

This supports the wifi interference or dropout diagnosis. The bigger the files, the greater the chance of encountering an error.

What does PCM L 16 mean?  Does it apply to 16-bit only? The analyzer does not want me to set PCM L 24 even though the 24/192 and 24/96 files are having the most issues.

PCM L16 is the absolute minimum "must support" format required of all DLNA renderers. If you have errors with other formats, then this is the preferred fallback format, since it should work under all circumstances.

EDIT: By the way, your Yamaha is DLNA conform and it does support L16, whereas your JF Light Industries is UPnP conform but NOT DLNA conform, and it does NOT support L16.

[mdx1]

Thank you for the detail explanation of settings and advice on IP issues.

• Perhaps you are on a wifi network with high interference rates and or dropouts.

Both SOSE and Yamaha are wired to a Gigabit Ethernet.  WiFi is only used on the iPad running JRemote.

• Perhaps your devices (the PCs and the players) are getting their IP addresses via DHCP (Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol); and if their DHCP lease expires, and they renew the lease, your router is assigning them a different IP address than they had before. Try either a) setting each device to have a RESERVED IP address on the router's DHCP configuration, or b) do not use DHCP but set static IP addresses instead. Dynamic+Reserved is preferred over Static because the router will always ensure that there are no duplicates, and that the addresses are within its routable sub- net

SOSE is already on a reserved IP (192.168.1.32).  Yamaha was not and is now also on a reserve IP (192.168.1.33).  I'll restart the Yamaha to have it switch over.  Two Windows 8.1 computers are on static IP and the Windows 7 computer is on reserved IP.

• Related topic to the above. Perhaps one or more of your devices has the same IP address as another.

That should not be the case as SOSE was on reserved IP and Yamaha was on dynamic IP.  The static IP range is 2 to 5 and from 200 up.  The reserved IP range is from 13 to 33.  The DHCP server gives out IP addresses from 50 to 150.

• Perhaps your router is not properly routing UDP Multicasts or UDP Unicasts.

The router is CISCO Linksys EA3500.

The security settings are:
IPv6 SPI Firewall Protection: enabled
IPv4 SPI Firewall Protection: enabled
Filter Anonymous Internet Requests: ON
Filter Multicast: OFF
Filter Internet NAT Redirection for IPv4 Internet Only : OFF
Filter IDENT (Port 113): ON

I do not see a UDP Unicast setting.

[mdx1]

Interestingly enough, after setting the Yamaha WXC-50 to a reserved IP (192.168.1.33) and rebooted the router, the analyzer running on both Windows 8.1 computers can no longer find any renderers on startup.  The box labeled "Use Windows Discovery" must be checked for any renderer to show up.  The windows 7 computer is not affected by this change.

Attached is a new report for the Yamaha WXc-50.  It was collected on a Windows 8.1 computer on which the Yamaha never times out or get Subscribe error.  What is Subscribe error?

The playback through JRiver to either renderer still times out consistently.  I don't think this is a network issue.   When using the LUMIN iOS app as the DLNA controller, JRiver as the DLNA server and SOSE as the renderer, it works perfectly and never stops.

When using the Yamaha MusicCast iOS app as the DLNA controller, , JRiver as the DLNA server and WXC-50 as the renderer, the playback never times out either.

So it shows the problem lies within JRiver when it is used as the controller.  It does not matter either with JRemote or playing directly from JRiver to SOSE or WXC-50.

It looks like JRiver is not compatible with those two off the shelf DLNA renderers.  It might be just settings that need to be tweaked. 

JRiver works well when it controlling the playback to a directly connected DAC or another JRiver computer including the Id.

[AndrewFG]

Interestingly enough, after setting the Yamaha WXC-50 to a reserved IP (192.168.1.33) and rebooted the router, the analyzer running on both Windows 8.1 computers can no longer find any renderers on startup.  The box labeled "Use Windows Discovery" must be checked for any renderer to show up. The windows 7 computer is not affected by this change.

...

It looks like JRiver is not compatible with those two off the shelf DLNA renderers.  It might be just settings that need to be tweaked. 

If the DMRA also has difficulty in finding your renderers it means that the problem is clearly NOT due to MC. Your problem is certainly something to do with the configuration of your LAN and/or the configuration of your Operating System(s).

You say that when the DMRA uses its own discovery mechanisms it cannot find the renderers, but when Windows Discovery is checked it DOES find them. This is very revealing: when Windows Discovery is checked, the DMRA uses the Microsoft Windows OS UPnP discovery API instead of using its own discovery code.

In other words the Microsoft Windows OS is blocking 3rd party applications from making UPnP discovery calls, but allowing its own discovery calls to pass through. So you need to look at two things..

• Check the Windows Firewall Settings. In particular you need to allow the MC application (and the DMRA) to pass through the firewall.
• Check the Windows Network & Sharing Center. In particular the settings for Network Discovery and Media Streaming.

[mdx1]

In other words the Microsoft Windows OS is blocking 3rd party applications from making UPnP discovery calls, but allowing its own discovery calls to pass through. So you need to look at two things..

• Check the Windows Firewall Settings. In particular you need to allow the MC application (and the DMRA) to pass through the firewall.
• Check the Windows Network & Sharing Center. In particular the settings for Network Discovery and Media Streaming.

Thank you for the reply.  I tried to add the Whitebear DMR Analyzer by its executable full path to the Windows Firewall but was told it was already on the list.  However I cannot find it from the list, nor can I find it in the Windows Firewall with Advanced Security.  When the analyzer was first installed, the Windows Firewall popped up and asked me whether to allow it.  I checked the box for the private network but not the public one.

It looks like the Windows 8.1 OS may be more secure than the Windows 7 regarding to UPnP.  UPnP protocols are  dead simple but can also be simply deadly as one article puts it.  I am a software engineer with two EE degrees.  I am used to setting up networks and developing enterprise level software with security in mind.  I would like to learn more about what UPnP requires that prevents JRiver from being a functional DLNA controller.

Can you also explain why other DLNA controllers such as LUMIN and Yamaha MusicCast can function normally which JRiver cannot?  What do those program use that JRiver does not?

[AndrewFG]

You can look at the device architecture here

http://upnp.org/specs/arch/UPnP-arch-DeviceArchitecture-v2.0.pdf

It is fairly straightforward and frankly I think everyone must implement it in the same way. Certainly I don't think there is anything odd about MC. In particular since it is proven that your renderers do work fine with MC on other people's systems.

As I said a few times already, the main barrier to proper functionality is either your network configuration or your firewalls...

[mdx1]

Thank you for the link.  I will look through the doc.  In the meantime, I placed an order for a current version of Linksys router (EA6500) which has a checkbox for UPnP.  I chose Linksys again also for its SIP support but I am not a fan of their current firmware with over blown UI which slows down everything.  I stayed with the older EA3500 because it had a way to roll back to the "Classic" look firmware.

...
In particular since it is proven that your renderers do work fine with MC on other people's systems.

I am not sure what you meant by "do work fine with MC on other people's systems".  Both renderers work fine on my systems with JRiver as the DLNA server but with other DLNA controllers .  JRiver just does not work as the DLNA controller with my setup.

It looks like by going to the older "classic" firmware on my current Linksys EA3500 router, the UPnP is disabled and cannot be turned on.  Running some security analysis revealed the UPnP is not enabled.

The more I learn about UPnP, the more I feel enabling it in the router would make the network less secure.  I cannot see a way that the router can restrict UPnP activities to the local network.  Without that assurance, malware can just "phone home" and do some real damage. Do you agree?

UPnP may be useful for discovering devices but does JRiver need it during the playback?  I am sure LUMIN and MusicCast do not use UPnP for playback or they would just quit in the middle of playing like JRiver does.

[AndrewFG]

^
It is a frequent mis-understanding that you need to "enable UPnP" on your router for the purposes of Digital Media Serving or Digital Media Rendering. That is wrong.

The UPnP standard specifies device control protocols for all kinds of home devices. The most common command sets are indeed for multi- media DMR and DMS, but in addition to that there are other command sets for all kinds of other applications in the home (e.g. remote printing, lighting, shading, heating, etc.); and one of those UPnP command sets is called "Internet Gateway".

When you "enable UPnP" on your router, what you are doing is enabling the UPnP command set "Internet Gateway", which allows users to remote control their router settings via a UPnP Control Point; it allows (for example) people to configure their router for port forwarding, VPN, games pass-thru and other such stuff. (To give one example, the Windows OS features for network discovery and remote sharing etc. utilize an "Internet Gateway" interface (if it finds one) for punching tunnels through the router).

If you are concerned about the security aspects of allowing normal users to make changes to your router settings, you should probably "dis-able UPnP" on your router. This will not have any impact on the router's routing of UPnP device discovery calls of other UPnP devices on the network.

Note: that apart from "enable UPnP" there may be other quite different settings on your router that DO have an impact on UPnP discovery; such as UDP Multicast & Unicast routing,  Time to Live, sub-net settings etc. and "enable / disable UPnP" has no impact on those settings.

PS my own router is a Linksys EA 6350 and I have set "dis-able UPnP". I have all devices (media and non media devices) set to get their IP addresses via DHCP. All the media devices have DHCP IP Reservations (so they always get the same IP address, and nothing else can take that address). I also have two separate WiFi access points which also get their IP addresses via DHCP Reservations on the Linksys. The WiFi APs have their own DHCP servers turned off (to prevent them trying to give away IP addresses that are in the scope of the Linksys route). And finally I do not have any devices with static IP addresses (to avoid them being on the wrong sub- net, and to avoid them "stealing" the IP address of any other device). This network works perfectly routing UPnP discovery calls between MC on four or five different computers, about five media devices, and about five phones and tablets, plus guests. Some devices are connected via Ethernet and some by WiFi. I never have dropouts or disappearences. All is rock steady. All of the time.

[mdx1]

PS my own router is a Linksys EA 6350 and I have set "dis-able UPnP". I have all devices (media and non media devices) set to get their IP addresses via DHCP. All the media devices have DHCP IP Reservations (so they always get the same IP address, and nothing else can take that address). I also have two separate WiFi access points which also get their IP addresses via DHCP Reservations on the Linksys. The WiFi APs have their own DHCP servers turned off (to prevent them trying to give away IP addresses that are in the scope of the Linksys route). And finally I do not have any devices with static IP addresses (to avoid them being on the wrong sub- net, and to avoid them "stealing" the IP address of any other device). This network works perfectly routing UPnP discovery calls between MC on four or five different computers, about five media devices, and about five phones and tablets, plus guests. Some devices are connected via Ethernet and some by WiFi. I never have dropouts or disappearences. All is rock steady. All of the time.

Thank you for sharing the information on the UPnP setting of your own router.  This confirmed my belief that the lack of UPnP checkbox support on my current router firmware should be a non-issue. 

My setup is quite similar to yours other than the static IP assignment on PCs, NAS devices and printers.  There should be no conflict in IP address assignments.  All IP address assignments are written down to a text file that is checked regularly.  I had bad experience with certain consumer routers that have semi-functional DHCP servers including a CenturyLink DSL modem (not mine).  On that network, when the DHCP server failed to renew IP addresses on secondary routers, the whole network could not get to the Internet.  The solution was to use static IP addresses for secondary routers.

On my home network, the cable modem is not a router.  The Linksys EA3500 is the router and DHCP server.  A second AP on a static IP (reconfigured Netgear AC1600 router) provides WiFi coverage on 2.4 and 5GHz bands.  I used to have 3 APs but this new one has enough coverage so old ones are retired.

The network consists of 1 router, 1 wireless AP, 4 VoIP devices, 4 NAS boxes, 3 network printers, 3 Rokus, 2 Amazon FireTVs, 1 Sonny Smart TV, 2 local video streamers, 3 Android TV boxes and finally two audio streamers, the Sonore SOSE and Yamaha WXC-50.  All of the above are wired with the exception of one printer on WiFi.  The WiFi devices include iPads, Android phones and tablets, Kindles and one Echo Dot.

The Linksys router has a priority list for VoIP devices which should not have any impact to the audio streaming on the local network.  Since I don't play games, the UPnP router setting is not needed.

I must admit I have never used or trusted DLNA streaming, audio or video, on my home network.  A Windows 7 PC in the living room was used to drive the DAC for music playback.  Each computer has its own DAC connected. Everything was working well.  The local video streaming is pulled, not pushed, from a NAS or PC. 

After attending the last Rocky Mountain Audiofest Confence, I decided to replace the livingroom PC with a SOSE device to improve the sound quality by removing the interference from the computer to the USB DAC.  When I encountered the problem of dropout during playback, the Yamaha WXC-50 was purchased to rule out the possibility that SOSE was the issue.  Since both had the same issue, that led me to start this thread.

All known devices on my network are either on static or reserved IP. The ranges of static, reserved and DHCP IP address do not overlap. Do you see any potential issues with the network setup?

If the network is fine, then the issues would be within the Windows.  All Windows PCs have their firewall enabled running AntiVirus and spyware scanners.  Are you running JRiver MC on your Windows PCs push audio to DLNA renderes on the network?  What changes have you made to the Windows to make it work?  If I were to set up a Windows machine from a Windows 8.1 ISO file and install JRiver on it, would it work out of box to push audio to my DLNA renderer, SOSE or WXC-50 without dropout?

[mdx1]

Thank you for all of your help, Andrew, Jim and Bob, to help me get to the bottom of the issues of my network.  I am happy to report this thread has a happy conclusion.  The dropout problem was caused by two issues.

1) My Network
The Netgear wireless access point in the living room was filtering out multicast traffic between its WAN port and LAN ports.  Even though it was configured as AP with DHCP and routing disabled, the multicast filtering was still active.  By avoiding using the AP as a switch, the problem was solved.

2) Duplicated MC Server Access Key
Two computers on the same network have the same MC access key which probably caused the DLNA confusion.  It definitely did for JRemote.  By resetting one, the problem was solved.

Right now all 4 computers can stream to the Sonore SOSE for a very long time.  I only tested it for 24 hours which is more than I need.  Streaming to the Yamaha WXC-50 can only last a few hours.  This is true from any of 4 computers.  It would be interesting to know the cause but for my practical use, it is fine.