Topic: Theaterview Skins (Read 16405 times)

DanielBMe · « **on:** January 09, 2017, 06:51:46 pm »

So I've been using JRiver for years because overa ll I really like it. I'm on version 21 and thought about upgrading to 22 but to be honest the front end for Theaterview is looking pretty old when I look at apps like Plex and Kodi. I've installed Kodi and it's pretty nice on the 10ft interface look. So that has me questioning if I will be upgrading to 22..

Maybe I missed something about Theaterview skins with 22 so thought I'd ask. Has there been any new work done on some Theaterview skins?

jachin99 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 09, 2017, 07:08:17 pm »

There are three or four old ones laying around the internet but nothing new. I hack together my own using metrox vines because it has an animation in the background. I just found an animation I liked on the internet, converted it to a .mp4 using a media conversion tool, renamed it background, and replaced it in the folder the original background came in.

DanielBMe · « **Reply #2 on:** January 09, 2017, 08:26:33 pm »

I was afraid of that. It's such a shame. I honestly just don't get why they or someone for that matter can't create one really nice nice skin. It would do wonders for the perception as far as I'm concerned. Plus it might even then spur more Theaterview skins.

Hilton · « **Reply #3 on:** January 10, 2017, 05:15:19 pm »

I don't think they are working on Theatre View anymore in its current guise.

There has been a lot of discussion about a rewrite codenamed "pretty face" http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,99290.msg736779.html#msg736779 and with the new "Panel" HTML 5 interface they are continuing to develop both as theatre view options.

blgentry · « **Reply #4 on:** January 10, 2017, 05:22:56 pm »

Quote from: DanielBMe on January 09, 2017, 06:51:46 pm

So I've been using JRiver for years because overa ll I really like it. I'm on version 21 and thought about upgrading to 22 but to be honest the front end for Theaterview is looking pretty old when I look at apps like Plex and Kodi.

"looking pretty old" . I've noticed that a lot of consumers use this argument when evaluating software. But what does it do for you when an application looks "new" versus looking "old"? I see this more in the phone (android/iphone) app space. Consumers complain that app X "looks old", but don't say anything about app functionality or useability. Just that "it looks like it was written 3 years ago".

For me this really makes no sense. If it works well, who cares if it uses modern looking colors, decorations, or other cosmetic features.

Now, if the functionality is lacking compared to other programs that's a totally different argument. Theater View definitely has it's own quirks and limitations. It's totally usable, but it's definitely different than other programs.

If you have functionality differences to discuss, please talk about them. JRiver *seems* like they are interested in actual functionality discussions about Theater View.

Brian.

fitbrit · « **Reply #5 on:** January 10, 2017, 06:00:55 pm »

Quote from: blgentry on January 10, 2017, 05:22:56 pm

"looking pretty old" . I've noticed that a lot of consumers use this argument when evaluation software. But what does it do for you when an application looks "new" versus looking "old"? I see this more in the phone (android/iphone) app space. Consumers complain that app X "looks old", but don't say anything about app functionality or useability. Just that "it looks like it was written 3 years ago".

...

I wanted to say something similar, but then I realised that it would be rather Big Brother of me to pass judgment on what someone else considers important. A few years ago, I was very much into the whole wanting to have the latest eye-candy in Theater View too. Then I matured more into your way of thinking, and then to somewhere in between. I wouldn't object to a facelift - I doubt it would make our experience worse.
What we're saying is Theater View has the personality but not the looks, and one shouldn't be so shallow. Yet some people ARE that shallow and there's not that much wrong with that when it comes to software, at least.

DanielBMe · « **Reply #6 on:** January 10, 2017, 06:02:57 pm »

Quote from: blgentry on January 10, 2017, 05:22:56 pm

"looking pretty old" . I've noticed that a lot of consumers use this argument when evaluation software. But what does it do for you when an application looks "new" versus looking "old"? I see this more in the phone (android/iphone) app space. Consumers complain that app X "looks old", but don't say anything about app functionality or useability. Just that "it looks like it was written 3 years ago".

For me this really makes no sense. If it works well, who cares if it uses modern looking colors, decorations, or other cosmetic features.

Now, if the functionality is lacking compared to other programs that's a totally different argument. Theater View definitely has it's own quirks and limitations. It's totally usable, but it's definitely different than other programs.

If you have functionality differences to discuss, please talk about them. JRiver *seems* like they are interested in actual functionality discussions about Theater View.

Brian.

Sorry but I have to disagree with you. I and many others do care how a skin looks and feels and personally the look and use of the TV skins are...flat. Why does someone buy a new phone, car, camera, etc. There's a whole host of reasons. Looks, functionality, features, etc. That's like telling people not buy a new IPhone, camera, car because..hey the one you have works perfectly fine. Yikes! There goes the whole consumer market! If you look at the Kodi skins there is a significant difference. I'm not saying Kodi itself is better than MC, I'm not sure it is, but it's 10ft experience certainly is. I wouldn't be trying it out if I didn't think there was something to be gained.

If there was an actual stated goal of creating new skins/features for TV and looking for input, then I would certainly be involved but honestly, when was the last skin for TV created? How often are they updated and new features implemented? What, 2012 or thereabouts?

I've been with JRiver for a long time and year after year, hoping some nice new skins are developed. Year after year it's been pretty much drier than the Sahara. I'm sorry, well I'm not really, but I don't think asking for a new updated skin is asking the world. I also happen to think it would be a good thing for JRiver. Isn't the goal to get as many people as possible buying a RJiver license? How can that be bad?

DanielBMe · « **Reply #7 on:** January 10, 2017, 06:06:13 pm »

Quote from: fitbrit on January 10, 2017, 06:00:55 pm

I wanted to say something similar, but then I realised that it would be rather Big Brother of me to pas judgment on what someone else considers important. A few years ago, I was very much into the whole wanting to have the latest eye-candy in Theater View too. Then I matured more into your way of thinking, and then to somewhere in between. I wouldn't object to a facelift - I doubt it would make our experience worse.
What we're saying is Theater View has the personality but not the looks, and one shouldn't be so shallow. Yet some people ARE that shallow and there's not that much wrong with that when it comes to software, at least.

How is improving a user interface shallow? My work includes a bit of working with user interfaces and how customers interact with them. Look and feel is really important. That's not shallow. Shallow is saying because the skins look old and somewhat flat, MC is probably crappy product. That would be judging a book by it's cover...or slip cover in TV case. In no way am I saying saying that.

blgentry · « **Reply #8 on:** January 10, 2017, 06:40:14 pm »

You seem to be mixing functionality and looks. Which is it? If you honestly just want nicer looking trim, colors, and decorations, please say so.

People buy new phones, new cars, etc for many reasons. There are generally feature differences. Plus real objects age and become less desirable. The plastic in your car can crack and make noise or look dull. The engine and drive train age, work less optimally, and cost money to maintain. Phones lose the ability to hold a charge. Phones lag behind newer ones when the processors are faster in the new ones, which produce a superior user interface experience.

But software, like MC, on the same hardware, has NONE of these attributes. It doesn't age, doesn't get harder to use, doesn't have parts falling off, doesn't cost more money, and doesn't lose performance.

Again, if you have functionality differences to discuss please do. If your whole argument is "I want it to look new", I guess I understand, though I don't agree with your opinion.

I'm not trying to be confrontational. Just trying to understand what your actual argument is.

Brian.

GaryM · « **Reply #9 on:** January 10, 2017, 07:01:49 pm »

Personally I'm just interested in the movie I'm going to watch. The skin for me should just be a minimal thing. I have mine set to as black as I can make it... I don't want flashing lights and animations...

fitbrit · « **Reply #10 on:** January 10, 2017, 07:08:05 pm »

Quote from: DanielBMe on January 10, 2017, 06:06:13 pm

How is improving a user interface shallow? My work includes a bit of working with user interfaces and how customers interact with them. Look and feel is really important. That's not shallow. Shallow is saying because the skins look old and somewhat flat, MC is probably crappy product. That would be judging a book by it's cover...or slip cover in TV case. In no way am I saying saying that.

Shallow. Profound. Whatever. I was just saying that you value what you value and that's fine.

DanielBMe · « **Reply #11 on:** January 10, 2017, 07:08:38 pm »

Well, when it comes to TV skins, features and looks go together no? If the last skin wasn't updated since 2012, there would obviously be features lacking in the user interface.

For movies and tv shows for ex, I'm playing with Kodi's Zypher skin with the vertical scroll. I can be configured so when browsing the main menu, when I get to TV Shows, it lists the most recently watched tv shows, and below that, recently imported..and you can change that. You can then hit enter on TV Shows to get to your full list viewing by Artist with images for each Artist that it has downloaded.

For Movies, it can list recently imported or watched or just a few random Movies available.

How about this. Take one of the better looking current MC TV skins and configure it so when browsing the main menu as you move over say TV Shows, it shows a Random TV Series as background fanart, as you move over to Music it shows Random Artists fanart, same as Movies.

Then as you say...hit enter on Movies, I get a list of Movies that can be configured various ways (which is already available although some of the views need to be improved) so maybe that I see 5 movies at a time on one side and a large picture I move over on the left with a brief description but with also fanart on the overall background. Then can just hit enter on that to play or configure it so I can hit enter to get into a detail screen.

I mean I can go on.. but maybe you have setup theaterview in a way that already does much of that. If so, the config should be shared. I'd love to see something along those lines. That's just a small ex I'm coming up as I think about what I've been playing around with Kodi's Zepher skin over the last 4 days.

fitbrit · « **Reply #12 on:** January 10, 2017, 07:09:22 pm »

The thread so far (but not really):

DanielBMe · « **Reply #13 on:** January 10, 2017, 07:10:49 pm »

It just seems like there's a resistance to making a nice new skin. I'm not asking for flashing bells and whistles (it would probably drive my dogs nuts) but just something a bit refreshed.

jachin99 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 10, 2017, 07:22:22 pm »

I know opinions are everywhere on this but if the program is moving towards a web interface then why not try to make it simple to edit panel. Maybe include a css editor or at least good documentation about how to change the way it looks. Maybe even add 3d views to panel or let people be creative with it.

Hilton · « **Reply #15 on:** January 11, 2017, 12:06:16 am »

Hey guys I don't think your getting it.

You can make a nice new skin today if you really wanted to. You'll just be limited to current theatre view layout limitations.
And it's a bit complex to do so.

The new HTML 5 coding for "Panel" as it evolves, may give us some new options and that has already been indicated as the future direction for theatre view type development.

That aside, I quite like theatre view as it stands now with the Rapier Fusion skin. So many different views available natively in Theatre View and it provides me with what I need. Maybe episodic view could be slightly improved but it's really not that bad. Navigation and ease of use is of more importance than eye candy. Yes it would be nice to have more options - and they will come eventually. Just not with the current implementation of Theatre View.

I actually prefer Theatre View navigation to Plex, Kodi and all the others, and I've tried them all. I keep coming back to the no nonsense simplicity and consistency of theatre view.

marko · « **Reply #16 on:** January 11, 2017, 12:28:03 am »

What Hilton said. For me, there's nothing wrong with MC's theater view.

Also using Rapier Fusion (thank you xplain) modded to fit my own Theater View customisations.

I get that some want more, but I think that what's being asked for requires a re-write from the bottom up, which JRiver probably have neither time, money nor inclination to do.

and of course, you know, that if they changed things that way, there would be just as many, if not more screaming blue murder for what we had before.

Over the years, JRiver have impressed with their ability to balance both sides of polarising subjects like this.
It may frustrate some that some of us don't want all that flashing eye candy, but we can't help that, we're just wired different. Sometimes, less is more, and all that.

I'm also surprised this thread got to be 16 posts long without getting itself locked. Well done everyone for keeping it civilised and focussed.

JimH · « **Reply #17 on:** January 11, 2017, 05:36:19 am »

I wish Windows would stop changing their interface with every new version. First I have to think "Which OS am I running?" and then "Where did they put the network settings on this one?" and then "How do I get there?"

If it "ain't broke" ....

Grenache · « **Reply #18 on:** January 11, 2017, 07:53:28 am »

Quote from: JimH on January 11, 2017, 05:36:19 am

I wish Windows would stop changing their interface with every new version. First I have to think "Which OS am I running?" and then "Where did they put the network settings on this one?" and then "How do I get there?"

If it "ain't broke" ....

I'm one of the old-timers, brought up with MS-DOS. I knew every command and every parameter by heart. To me DOS wasn't broken, but I'm sure glad they fixed it. Even if I've had to learn a lot of new stuff between then and Windows 10. It's called evolution, and for the most part that's a good thing.

DanielBMe · « **Reply #19 on:** January 11, 2017, 08:51:54 am »

Quote from: marko on January 11, 2017, 12:28:03 am

What Hilton said. For me, there's nothing wrong with MC's theater view.

Also using Rapier Fusion (thank you xplain) modded to fit my own Theater View customisations.

I get that some want more, but I think that what's being asked for requires a re-write from the bottom up, which JRiver probably have neither time, money nor inclination to do.

and of course, you know, that if they changed things that way, there would be just as many, if not more screaming blue murder for what we had before.

Over the years, JRiver have impressed with their ability to balance both sides of polarising subjects like this.
It may frustrate some that some of us don't want all that flashing eye candy, but we can't help that, we're just wired different. Sometimes, less is more, and all that.

I'm also surprised this thread got to be 16 posts long without getting itself locked. Well done everyone for keeping it civilised and focussed.

Hey I'm willing to admit I may be wrong. Is there a link to the modded Rapier skin? Would you be willing to share some screenshots of your modded Rapier skin? That way some of us can see what's possible and maybe get some assistance doing something similar? I honestly do want to stay with JRiver. I've been with them for this long and do overall like the product.

mojave · « **Reply #20 on:** January 11, 2017, 09:10:24 am »

Quote from: DanielBMe on January 11, 2017, 08:51:54 am

Hey I'm willing to admit I may be wrong. Is there a link to the modded Rapier skin? Would you be willing to share some screenshots of your modded Rapier skin? That way some of us can see what's possible and maybe get some assistance doing something similar? I honestly do want to stay with JRiver. I've been with them for this long and do overall like the product.

All of xplain's skins can be found at http://x-plain.blogspot.com/. I think Marko modded the Rapier Fusion one himself to fit his needs. I prefer the Blue Puzzle skin by xplain.

DanielBMe · « **Reply #21 on:** January 11, 2017, 09:38:11 am »

Ok, downloaded and installed both the regular version and modded. I'll be honest, right off that bat there's a problem. The main roller bar is fine but the bar below it goes right off the bottom of my screen so just the top of each letter is barely visible. Noticed the default was set to 125% so changed it...had to change it to like 85% and now everything is really small and hard to read. I'm running 1920x1080....

Also the background pictures...leave a lot to be desired. I see lots of wasted space too.

I'm not going to linger on this. There's a whole lot of room for improvement. I just hope this new Panel thing you are talking about brings improvements with themes and skins. I'll be popping in and out of here and keep my eye out on any progress.

AndrewFG · « **Reply #22 on:** January 11, 2017, 09:46:03 am »

Quote from: DanielBMe on January 11, 2017, 09:38:11 am

I just hope this new Panel thing you are talking about brings improvements with themes and skins.

Panel is a remote web interface (based on HTML5 and Java Script etc.) so I doubt very much that this is going to have any impact on the look & feel of TheaterView.

millst · « **Reply #23 on:** January 11, 2017, 10:34:54 am »

Change for the sake of change is not good, but I don't think that's what we are asking for. Nobody though phones were "broke" until Apple "fixed" them with the iPhone.

-tm

JimH · « **Reply #24 on:** January 11, 2017, 10:43:59 am »

This topic comes up from time to time. There is no easy answer.

If you have specific suggestions on how Theater View can be improved, please make them.

If you just say you want something new and fresh or more like Kodi, it doesn't help. We don't know what you want.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There is no universal standard for esthetics. You might like one graphic look. Someone else might like another.

We've tried building some customization capabilities into Theater View, but people seldom use them.

In summary, we're listening, but it isn't clear that a change would make it better.

marko · « **Reply #25 on:** January 11, 2017, 10:50:36 am »

Quote from: DanielBMe on January 11, 2017, 08:51:54 am

Hey I'm willing to admit I may be wrong. Is there a link to the modded Rapier skin? Would you be willing to share some screenshots of your modded Rapier skin? That way some of us can see what's possible and maybe get some assistance doing something similar? I honestly do want to stay with JRiver. I've been with them for this long and do overall like the product.

Here's how my Rapier Fusion loooks...
http://www.mpw.scot/galleries/rapier/bigpage.html?image=862486581_orig0.jpg

Grenache · « **Reply #26 on:** January 11, 2017, 11:13:00 am »

Quote from: Hilton on January 10, 2017, 05:15:19 pm

with the new "Panel" HTML 5 interface they are continuing to develop both as theatre view options.

Quote from: Hilton on January 11, 2017, 12:06:16 am

The new HTML 5 coding for "Panel" as it evolves, may give us some new options and that has already been indicated as the future direction for theatre view type development.

Quote from: AndrewFG on January 11, 2017, 09:46:03 am

Panel is a remote web interface (based on HTML5 and Java Script etc.) so I doubt very much that this is going to have any impact on the look & feel of TheaterView.

Even if I browse the forums several times a week, I still don't know what "Panel" is or what it's going to be. When it first was announced I thought it was the outcome of all the discussions about "Pretty Face", and I got excited. Then, when the first version appeared my excitement calmed down as it seemed to be geared mostly towards JRiver "Lighting"-project. And now I just got excited again hearing that "Panel" might be part of future Theater View development. But then again that might not be the case at all.

Can anyone clarify if "Panel" will have anything to do with the development of Theater View or new/better skinning possibilities? I don't mind waiting for something, but I like to have an idea of what I'm waiting for.

DanielBMe · « **Reply #27 on:** January 11, 2017, 11:27:25 am »

Quote from: JimH on January 11, 2017, 10:43:59 am

This topic comes up from time to time. There is no easy answer.

If you have specific suggestions on how Theater View can be improved, please make them.

If you just say you want something new and fresh or more like Kodi, it doesn't help. We don't know what you want.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There is no universal standard for esthetics. You might like one graphic look. Someone else might like another.

We've tried building some customization capabilities into Theater View, but people seldom use them.

In summary, we're listening, but it isn't clear that a change would make it better.

I understand you are listening and building capabilities into Theater View but the problem is no one is taking advantage of it by creating new TV skins or updating older ones. I guess that's the problem. You can build in all the custom capabilities into Theater View but if no skin is developed and all the existing ones are from 2012, well ...you can see the problem...

DanielBMe · « **Reply #28 on:** January 11, 2017, 11:45:16 am »

Quote from: marko on January 11, 2017, 10:50:36 am

Here's how my Rapier Fusion loooks...
http://www.mpw.scot/galleries/rapier/bigpage.html?image=862486581_orig0.jpg

Good to see that you can get two rows to appear on the screen without shrinking everything. Not sure how you are doing that. Are you running in 1920x1080?

But see here's where I can see room for improvement. There's a lot of wasted space above the menu rows. For ex when I select move onto Videos onto the main menu, how about showing the last couple of movies I watched or imported. Maybe there's 2 members of the family who are watching diff movies and so when they get to Videos (or movies) it displays the last 3 watched ones. If I didn't complete watching a movie, I'll see it there, can scroll up and click play and start from where I left off?

Same goes for Music, when I move over the Music menu item you can list the last 3-5 albums I listened to (or maybe the last 3-5 just recently imported) and can select them from there.

Grenache · « **Reply #29 on:** January 11, 2017, 02:41:11 pm »

Quote from: JimH on January 11, 2017, 10:43:59 am

This topic comes up from time to time. There is no easy answer.

If you have specific suggestions on how Theater View can be improved, please make them.

Yes, this has come up many, many times during the years, and while I agree that there's no easy answer, your own answer to these requests has always been the same: "make some specific suggestions". But that's exactly what you'll find if you look through the forums: several suggestions on how Theater View and/or the skinning system can be improved, some of them very specific. Nonetheless, very few (if any) of these suggestions have been considered.

Don't get me wrong. It's your right not to make these kind of changes a priority, but sometimes it would be nice to get a straight answer like: "we don't think this suggestion is a good idea" or even: "we don't have any plans to improve Theater View or the skinning system".

marko · « **Reply #30 on:** January 11, 2017, 03:09:56 pm »

Quote from: DanielBMe on January 11, 2017, 11:45:16 am

Good to see that you can get two rows to appear on the screen without shrinking everything. Not sure how you are doing that. Are you running in 1920x1080?

But see here's where I can see room for improvement. There's a lot of wasted space above the menu rows. For ex when I select move onto Videos onto the main menu, how about showing the last couple of movies I watched or imported. Maybe there's 2 members of the family who are watching diff movies and so when they get to Videos (or movies) it displays the last 3 watched ones. If I didn't complete watching a movie, I'll see it there, can scroll up and click play and start from where I left off?

Same goes for Music, when I move over the Music menu item you can list the last 3-5 albums I listened to (or maybe the last 3-5 just recently imported) and can select them from there.

You can set up views that do exactly that. For movies, there is a "Just In" view that lists movies that have been imported in the last seven days, and movies that haven't been watched yet. So, when we watch one that was imported more than seven days ago, it automatically drops out of the view. If we watch one the day it is imported, it drops from the view seven days later.
for 'favourite' views we use most often in each category, I have set buttons on our remote that take us there, from anywhere in theater view, with one press. This makes it a breeze to get around, foregoing the endless left/right up/down ing.

The TV is running 1920 x 1080, yes.

-marko

DanielBMe · « **Reply #31 on:** January 11, 2017, 03:18:31 pm »

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that JR team is not updating any functionality, well not for the most part. My issue is lack of new skins that would also take advantage of any changes that the JR team has made to the overall functionality of MC. Those are two separate issues. It's hard to say what the JR team is missing in terms of functionality when the most recent skin is from 2012/13. I'm sure that if someone created a brand new skin today or tried to modernize the Rapier one, there would be new items/functionality they could do now that they couldn't do in 2012. Wouldn't that be a fair statement?

So it's really through that process of creating new skins that you can see where you are succeeding or failing in terms of functionality...well in regards to skinning/user experience.

Now, the question is who's responsibility is it. The users or the JR team, or both? How is it Kodi has so many who are willing to put in the work to create new skins but MC doesn't? It's an honest question. Is it because MC is much more complicated? Is it the number of users?

We should be able to have an honest discussion without creating animosity between the us.

DanielBMe · « **Reply #32 on:** January 11, 2017, 03:23:28 pm »

Quote from: marko on January 11, 2017, 03:09:56 pm

You can set up views that do exactly that. For movies, there is a "Just In" view that lists movies that have been imported in the last seven days, and movies that haven't been watched yet. So, when we watch one that was imported more than seven days ago, it automatically drops out of the view. If we watch one the day it is imported, it drops from the view seven days later.
for 'favourite' views we use most often in each category, I have set buttons on our remote that take us there, from anywhere in theater view, with one press. This makes it a breeze to get around, foregoing the endless left/right up/down ing.

The TV is running 1920 x 1080, yes.

-marko

Hi Marco, just to be clear, the Just in View is only shown when you hit enter on Movies right? While that is good to know, I was also referring to it showing on the main home screen when you move the scroll bar over Movies so that you don't have to hit enter on Movies to get to the next view.

Also would you know why my bottom menu options are chopped off? I have the size set to 125% which looks good text wise but in order to get the second menu row to show up I have to set it lower so that the text becomes too small.

JimH · « **Reply #33 on:** January 11, 2017, 03:35:19 pm »

Quote from: Grenache on January 11, 2017, 02:41:11 pm

Yes, this has come up many, many times during the years, and while I agree that there's no easy answer, your own answer to these requests has always been the same: "make some specific suggestions". But that's exactly what you'll find if you look through the forums: several suggestions on how Theater View and/or the skinning system can be improved, some of them very specific. Nonetheless, very few (if any) of these suggestions have been considered.

Don't get me wrong. It's your right not to make these kind of changes a priority, but sometimes it would be nice to get a straight answer like: "we don't think this suggestion is a good idea" or even: "we don't have any plans to improve Theater View or the skinning system".

Seems a little harsh. Why do you believe we don't consider suggestions, for example?

Remember that there are hundreds of thousands of active users and we are just ten people, some of whom aren't active on the forum.

We have made minor changes over the years*. I don't believe there is a need for a major change.

Again, if you feel you know better, please be specific.

---
* See this thread, for example: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,106553.0.html

fitbrit · « **Reply #34 on:** January 11, 2017, 04:10:41 pm »

An example of a specific request, made frequently, and possibly fairly easy to do has been the use of small images in TheaterView to represent common tag entries such as audio or video codecs for video files.
For example, when a movie is selected in the "Cover flow" type view, the logos for DTS-HD MA and h264 and FullHD, 3D, would show up and instantly be recognisable without the user having to actively look for the information - eyes are immediately drawn to the logo and we know what to expect from that movie file.

JimH · « **Reply #35 on:** January 11, 2017, 04:29:00 pm »

You may also be unaware that Theater View was recently ported (laboriously) to Linux and Mac by Hendrik. This was at least three full months of work.

It may not mean anything to you now, but it will if you use one of these OS's in the future.

Grenache · « **Reply #36 on:** January 11, 2017, 04:48:57 pm »

Quote from: JimH on January 11, 2017, 03:35:19 pm

Seems a little harsh. Why do you believe we don't consider suggestions, for example?

I don't think I'm being harsh here. I'm just saying that your respons to requests regarding improvements to Theater View and skinning haven't been very clear a part from repeatingly asking for specific suggestions. When you get these (and there have been several very specific suggestions, some of them with detailed explanations and screen shots) you don't follow up with a clear respons or an opinion, giving us a chance to know where JRiver stand. That's why I've gotten the impression that you don't consider making these kind of changes at all. I'm glad (but of course at the same time sad) that you now say:

Quote from: JimH on January 11, 2017, 03:35:19 pm

I don't believe there is a need for a major change.

At least that's a clear answer. Thanks (and I mean that).

Quote from: JimH on January 11, 2017, 03:35:19 pm

Remember that there are hundreds of thousands of active users and we are just ten people, some of whom aren't active on the forum.

I know and want to make clear that this wasn't meant as a general "complaint" - it's specifically when it comes to topics brought up in this thread. Just like the OP, I've been using JRiver for years (at least since MC12) and in most other areas I'm a happy customer who would prefer to stay with MC instead of migrating to one of the alternatives already mentioned. Some of us just have to consider the opinion of other people in our household, and while I don't agree that design is more important than functionality I understand and respect why some might look at it differently.

JimH · « **Reply #37 on:** January 11, 2017, 04:53:26 pm »

Quote from: Grenache on January 11, 2017, 04:48:57 pm

When you get these (and there have been several very specific suggestions, some of them with detailed explanations and screen shots) you don't follow up with a clear respons or an opinion, giving us a chance to know where JRiver stand. That's why I've gotten the impression that you don't consider making these kind of changes at all.

When a suggestion is made, I often just wait to see what other people will say. We don't usually do things unless there is some semblance of a consensus, especially when it's a big change.

jachin99 · « **Reply #38 on:** January 11, 2017, 05:04:00 pm »

Quote from: JimH on January 11, 2017, 03:35:19 pm

Remember that there are hundreds of thousands of active users and we are just ten people, some of whom aren't active on the forum.

I think this is where doing something to attract skin developers would be a good idea. Really thorough documentation, and good examples would probably go a long way. For instance, I figured out just a few days ago how to replace the panel background image but going beyond that, and documenting how the web page is laid out, and where the HTML for each page is in terms of how the pages are layed out within each folder. I bring up this specific example because although I replace the background image, I could not find out how to change the color of the settings logo and search box. I think that is where Kodi has a huge edge. I don't really see JRiver being community driven but if it were, it would be a positive change.

JimH · « **Reply #39 on:** January 11, 2017, 05:12:11 pm »

Grenache,
I found your old wish list here:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,106714.msg742210.html#msg742210

I agree with what Hendrik said in response. It's not skinning. You're imagining a completely different interface with lots of ability to customize. I think it would take something on the order of a man year of time. It would lead to a lot of new support questions. I'm not sure it would be an improvement. I do think that what we have is clear and works well. That wasn't easy to accomplish.

JimH · « **Reply #40 on:** January 11, 2017, 05:16:30 pm »

Quote from: jachin99 on January 11, 2017, 05:04:00 pm

I don't really see JRiver being community driven but if it were, it would be a positive change.

From the forum's home page:

727126 Posts in 101978 Topics by 46642 Members

Maybe I don't understand what you mean by "community driven".

fitbrit · « **Reply #41 on:** January 11, 2017, 05:36:55 pm »

As to why Kodi has many more skins:

1) It's easier to do from what I've heard.
2) It's more flexible to achieve SIGNIFICANTLY different looks, representations and functionalities
3) There may also be an element of this: Kodi is a free program, and so people are more willing to spend time on these projects. It seems like when someone pays for a product, even an amazing value for money one like MC, people feel that it's not their job to do something like that.

blgentry · « **Reply #42 on:** January 11, 2017, 06:05:42 pm »

Quote from: DanielBMe on January 11, 2017, 03:18:31 pm

My issue is lack of new skins that would also take advantage of any changes that the JR team has made to the overall functionality of MC. Those are two separate issues. It's hard to say what the JR team is missing in terms of functionality when the most recent skin is from 2012/13. I'm sure that if someone created a brand new skin today or tried to modernize the Rapier one, there would be new items/functionality they could do now that they couldn't do in 2012.

So the term "skinning' means different things on different programs. In Kodi (and maybe Plex?) skinning includes the ability to alter the way that navigation works and other functionality type changes. It also includes the ability to change decorations, background images, etc. That's Kodi.

In MC, skinning is strictly limited to decorations and background images and things. There is no way to change navigation or functionality. Sure, you can make the scroll list vertical instead of horizontal, but the navigation is the same. I have not studied this issue extensively, so I may have some details wrong.

The fundamental point here is, you CAN NOT ADD FUNCTIONALITY via skinning in MC. Many of the things that you have talked about here are functionality changes, not skinning changes. MC's skinning engine is not as general purpose as the one in Kodi. You're not the first person to ask about this. Far from it! There are numerous threads with users saying essentially what you are saying. They all use the word "skinning", when what they really mean is "make me a new customization engine for MC because Kodi has one and I like the variety that offers me."

It's a fairly reasonable statement to make. Unfortunately, as Jim has indicated, MC doesn't have those features and they think it would take a very costly amount of effort to make MC's customization do the things that you and other ask for.

My opinion? I haven't used MC's Theater View enough to be sure what I want changed. I think it's moderately klunky, but it certainly works. To Jim's point, there's no reason to change interfaces that already work well. Itunes is a fantastic example. Itunes used to be a really good program. But with every other version, they changed it fundamentally so that things that you were used to no longer worked. This keeps the interface artificially "fresh and new". But it also alienates users who are used to how things work already. Changes in interfaces, in order to appear "new and exciting" to the public are terrible ideas. Fresh and new for the sake of newness is counter productive and only pleases casual users and people with no attention span who just need to see shiny new stuff all the time.

Can MC be improved in this respect? I actually think it can. I think a careful redesign would be VERY POSITIVE for MC. But based on what I've read here for the past few years, I don't expect that JRiver will take this path. It's too bad. MC could be the class leading 10 foot interface, besting Kodi and Plex and all the others. But it's probably going to stay the same for whatever reason.

I feel weird making a critical statement like this. Because I'm an enormous supporter of MC. I've got over 4000 posts in this forum, so I'm clearly a fan. I think it can be improved in this particular respect.

Brian.

Grenache · « **Reply #43 on:** January 11, 2017, 06:07:45 pm »

Quote from: JimH on January 11, 2017, 04:53:26 pm

When a suggestion is made, I often just wait to see what other people will say. We don't usually do things unless there is some semblance of a consensus, especially when it's a big change.

That's completely understandable. But you shouldn't forget that what seems to be a consensus might be heavily skewed because the most opiniated users usually are the most technically minded, maybe even Beta Team members who know each dark corner of MC. And while I believe their opinion should be valued because of all the the time and effort they put into MC and helping others, you probably have a lot of users who never post in the forums and even more "secondary users" (spouses, children, other family...) who are just as important, considering the social nature of a media center. My guess is that this last user group care less about the technical superiority of MC and more about the ease of use and visual appearence of Theater View. I might be in the minority here, but that's the case in my household, and I would love to see MC do both equally well.

JimH · « **Reply #44 on:** January 11, 2017, 06:23:19 pm »

I agree about the non-technical segment.

JimH · « **Reply #45 on:** January 11, 2017, 06:25:39 pm »

Quote from: blgentry on January 11, 2017, 06:05:42 pm

MC could be the class leading 10 foot interface, besting Kodi and Plex and all the others.

I think we're doing OK. I suppose we sometimes lose a few users to them, but I know we're winning some of theirs, too.

It's not a sprint.

jachin99 · « **Reply #46 on:** January 11, 2017, 06:38:34 pm »

Quote from: JimH on January 11, 2017, 05:16:30 pm

From the forum's home page:

727126 Posts in 101978 Topics by 46642 Members

Maybe I don't understand what you mean by "community driven".

Few active developers. I'm comparing it to other forums I browse where I see at least a few Devs posting almost daily. There is quite a bit of forum activity but a lot of it is asking for help (This doesn't mean other programs are different but I don't see very many members going beyond asking for help)

DanielBMe · « **Reply #47 on:** January 11, 2017, 06:51:54 pm »

Quote from: blgentry on January 11, 2017, 06:05:42 pm

So the term "skinning' means different things on different programs. In Kodi (and maybe Plex?) skinning includes the ability to alter the way that navigation works and other functionality type changes. It also includes the ability to change decorations, background images, etc. That's Kodi.

...

Brian, your well thought out and honest opinion is greatly appreciated.

So, with all this conversation, let me throw this out into the ether. Can we perhaps get someone who can make some changes to the Rapier Fusion TheaterView skin to see if we can make it a little better? Obviously you need someone to buy into this and make the changes. I have no idea who this would be or if they would be willing.

A few suggestions (and maybe they are already available, if so let me know)

1. Be able to move the bottom two rows of the main menu up, say options for 10%, 20% etc up to 50% if you want it in the middle of the screen. As mentioned earlier my bottom row is chopped off and setting size below 125% makes things small.
2. Offer a vertical option
3. All for the ability to change the colour of the cursor/scroll box or whatever it's called..
4. When moving the cursor over Music (without hitting enter on it) have an option to see in two columns, one on the left that shows recently imported Albums and on the other side recently played albums.
5. If the above is not possible, then how about showing random Artist or Album Fanart of some type.
6. Same as 4 above but for movies.
7. Same as 5 above but for movies but showing random movie covers from your library or fanart of those movies.
8. Same as above but a random photos from your library, maybe recent imports, or photos that change every few seconds
(almost like a slide show)
9. For Music, when I hit enter on Music from the main menu I have an option to either go direct to My Artists or have a another vertical menu that lists things such as Playlist, By Album, Favorites, etc
10. Most of the movie views are good. One change I would like to see is when looking at the various views I'm not sure what it's called by across the menu it shows Name and below it Name. The view shows 2 rows of 5 movies with a movie description on the right. I think a 2 x 4 option would be nice so we can get more text for the movie description and see some icons for video and audio formats.
11. There's a 3D movie view that just lists the cover art. It would be nice if we could also see the movie description here with the audio and movie tags such as DTS-HD MA etc
12. An option for an dark theme and an option for a light them. I'm getting tired of all the black and dark screens.

Ok, that's where I have to stop for now. I'm redoing parts of my NAS so can't properly go through all items right now.

Hopefully that helps!

JimH · « **Reply #48 on:** January 11, 2017, 07:13:34 pm »

Quote from: jachin99 on January 11, 2017, 06:38:34 pm

Few active developers. I'm comparing it to other forums I browse where I see at least a few Devs posting almost daily. There is quite a bit of forum activity but a lot of it is asking for help (This doesn't mean other programs are different but I don't see very many members going beyond asking for help)

I'm not sure what you expect, but there are a lot of people who post several times a day, usually helping someone else. There are also developers who are active. Several post a few times a week. There's a board here devoted to "Third Party" products.

In any case, this is off topic. Please start a thread if you have more to say.

JimH · « **Reply #49 on:** January 11, 2017, 07:15:09 pm »

Daniel, maybe you should learn how to do it.

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