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[akira54]

Apologies if this is a well-known topic or if I missed something but after setting up JRemote to show the conductor field I was surprised to find so few conductors listed there. I checked some recently tagged CDs in MC22 tag's editor and in all of them the conductor field was empty, whereas MP3Tag (used for actual tagging) showed it to be properly filled. Is there a mapping mismatch/problem here?

NB. All audio files are Apple lossless.

[Spike1000]

The challenges of tagging classical music comes up on this forum quite a lot and gets answered by many people. Wouldn't it save time if a 'best practice' guide for those wanting to tag classical music was written, or even a walk through video published? Would certainly improve the usability of MC and save reinventing the wheel.

Maybe some templates could be created that were downloadable into MC to enable extra sample tagging fields. Maybe there could be a 'Enable classical options' feature in MC 23 so all the extra bells and whistles could be made available with sample matching views created really easily. . .

Not a problem for me as I only own one piece of classical music 

Spike

[Manfred]

I requested that a long time ago - a best practice template covering the most classical music shops like LINN, etc. and  a tool that migrates one current tagging to the tagging used in the template.

[akira54]

I agree about the best practice thing though I am pretty happy with my own set up, but my question is not about best practice but refers to a possible mapping(?) problem: a tag supplied by one program and seen by many others not showing up in MC. Brian, perhaps?

[JimH]

If MC doesn't see it, the tag isn't filled.  Perhaps another name.

[dtc]

In the tagging window, if you click on the top line it will show you the tags that MC sees in the files.

[akira54]

If MC doesn't see it, the tag isn't filled.  Perhaps another name.

It is filled. Compare the following two screenshots of the same music: MC22 and MP3Tag.

[dtc]

What does MC report for the file tags - see my post above.

In Options - General do you  have Update Tags When File Info Changes checked?

In Library Tools (select file and right click to get to Library Tools)  does  Update Library (from Tags) copy the data for the files to the library?

[JimH]

It is. Compare the following two screenshots of the same music: MC22 and MP3Tag.

It may be a different tag. 

[akira54]

In the tagging window, if you click on the top line it will show you the tags that MC sees in the files.

If you mean the icon on the left of the top tagging window line, I have it set to "Show Tags with Values" and manually added the conductor tag, but this is probably not what you mean. If I just click on the top line that has the word "tag" in it, nothing happens. I do not understand the question, am I not showing you what MC reports in the tag window?

Yes Options > General has "Update tags ..." checked. Some of the files where the conductor info is missing are brand new rips anyway. The one shown in the screenshot, however, is not. It is ancient and has been in MC for many years.

PS. I did a quick search and cannot find a single track that shows the conductor in MC tag. I know for a fact that all these tracks do have the MP3Tag conductor field filled.

[akira54]

It may be a different tag.

Hence my original question. Is there perhaps a mapping problem? I checked MP3Tag and its tags correspond to fields that many others also use, so if there is a mismatch perhaps MC is the odd one out here. But since I do not understand what is going on, this is pure speculation.

[dtc]

To have MC show the file tags click on the top line of the tagging WIndow that says something like FLAC - 4:04 - 40MB. That is what MC sees in the file. If the Conductor tag is there it then becomes a matter of transferring them to the library.  The normal tag view shows what is in the MC library, not in what is in the files.

Can you transfer the file tags to the library using the Library Tool I mentioned.

EDIT : Just noticed these are ALAC files. I have no recent experience with them. Soprry. That may, or may not, have something to do with your issue.

[blgentry]

If you mean the icon on the left of the top tagging window line, I have it set to "Show Tags with Values" and manually added the conductor tag, but this is probably not what you mean. If I just click on the top line that has the word "tag" in it, nothing happens. I do not understand the question, am I not showing you what MC reports in the tag window?

DTC is trying to have you access a specific MC feature called the "Tag Dump".  The Tag Dump shows the values of the fields in the file in their raw format.  It's different than showing MC's tags for the file because MC's tags are inside MC's database.  The Tag Dump shows what's actually in the file and can show things like the "code name" for each tag.

But the Tag Dump is accessed in a very unusual way.  Look at the picture you posted.  See where it shows:

M4A - 3:17 - 13.7 MB

You can actually click on that line.  When you do, the Tag Dump will show.  Do that and perhaps post a screen shot of what it shows.

Brian.

[dtc]

Brian - As an Apple guy, is there any difference in how MC handles ALAC flies in terms of tagging. Not something I deal with.

[akira54]

No hint of a conductor tag:

[blgentry]

Brian - As an Apple guy, is there any difference in how MC handles ALAC flies in terms of tagging. Not something I deal with.

I'm an odd Apple consumer.  I don't really buy into their ecosystem.  I like their computers and that's what I buy and use.  But I don't own any i-devices, nor do I use their proprietary formats, or purchase media from their ITunes store.

So, while I've played with ALACs for doing testing, I have no media stored as ALAC.  All of my audio is stored as FLAC, with a few exceptions in other formats, but no ALAC.

Brian.

[blgentry]

No hint of a conductor tag:

Your screen shot suspiciously stops at Composer, which is alphabetically before Conductor.  Did you try scrolling down in that window?  That's probably not it, but I had to ask.

Brian.

[akira54]

Your screen shot suspiciously stops at Composer, which is alphabetically before Conductor.  Did you try scrolling down in that window?  That's probably not it, but I had to ask.

Brian.

Yes, I noticed that too, but I cannot scroll down at all, not even by placing the cursor on Composer and then going down. It looks like it is normal though. Compare this tag dump of a track where I used MC tag to add the conductor:

[akira54]

as to Alac ... all my music used to be flac too until the real world caught up with me and I became weary of having to generate mp3s of all the music I listen to on my phone. When using alac iTunes will automatically convert the tracks in my playlists to lossy and add them to my phone. The playlists can also be used by Sonos and even by MC so it is (almost) a win-win situation when trying to juggle several systems.

[timwtheov]

In Library Tools (select file and right click to get to Library Tools)  does  Update Library (from Tags) copy the data for the files to the library?

Go back to the second thing DTC said above and try it. Like you, I tag (parts of my) classical tracks in another program (in my case, Musichi), but in order for those Musichi-generated tags to show up in MC, I have to do what DTC said: highlight the file(s), right click, go to "Library Tools," and select "Update Library (from Tags)." Try it and see if what you put in "Conductor" in MP3Tag shows up.

[akira54]

Go back to the second thing DTC said above and try it. Like you, I tag (parts of my) classical tracks in another program (in my case, Musichi), but in order for those Musichi-generated tags to show up in MC, I have to do what DTC said: highlight the file(s), right click, go to "Library Tools," and select "Update Library (from Tags)." Try it and see if what you put in "Conductor" in MP3Tag shows up.

Oops, I had missed DTC's last remark. I have now tried it and it makes no difference. The Conductor field remains empty.

I had a look at a sample track using both MediaInfo and dBPoweramp. In both the conductor info turns up. In dBPowerAmp under the tag "Conductor" in MediaInfo as "@con".

[MikeO]

Like Brian I have most files as FLAC. When I see the odd ALAC file I recall some tags were missing

I put it down to a less comprehensive set of default tags

I'll go find an alac file and play

Mike

[dtc]

I converted a flac file with the conductor field filled in to ALACusing MC  and imported that file. MC correctly put the conductor in the library and when I look at the tag in the file it correctly sees the conductor field.

For some reason MC is not seeing the field in the file for akira54. Maybe somebody for JRiver can look at the file to see why MC is not seeing the field.

[MikeO]

Ditto

The only alac file I have was rock hence no conductor. I filled in conductor it immediately showed up in Media Info

All seems well . I am using Windows mc 22 latest build

Mike

[akira54]

Ditto

The only alac file I have was rock hence no conductor. I filled in conductor it immediately showed up in Media Info

All seems well . I am using Windows mc 22 latest build

Mike

Would it help if I uploaded a sample file?

NB. I also tried another copy of MC22 installed on my iMac with its own library but reading the same source files. Same story.

[akira54]

Like Brian I have most files as FLAC. When I see the odd ALAC file I recall some tags were missing

I put it down to a less comprehensive set of default tags

I'll go find an alac file and play

Mike

Mike,

As my screenshots show, the tags are not missing, they simply do not show up in MC.

[dtc]

I would be happy to look at a file if you can upload it to a server. I can at least verify if I get the same results you are seeing.

Is this all on a Mac? I am on Windows. Brian might be able to check it on a Mac. Unlikely, but it could be a Mac vs. Window issue.

[blgentry]

I can check on Mac and Linux.

Brian.

[akira54]

I would be happy to look at a file if you can upload it to a server. I can at least verify if I get the same results you are seeing.

Is this all on a Mac? I am on Windows. Brian might be able to check it on a Mac. Unlikely, but it could be a Mac vs. Window issue.

No, MC is normally run from a W7 PC, but I also have it installed on my Macs (as standalone). You will find two sample files here: https://ln.sync.com/dl/267568ce0/gpvb2fwa-z7vwt7t3-f6pbxpnw-68srt4p3

[blgentry]

I imported those sample files into MC22 for Mac.  As reported, MC does not show a conductor tag.  Nor does it show anything resembling "conductor" in the Tag Dump.

I opened the files in KID3 and looked at the tags.  KID3 sees a tag named "@con".  Frankly, that doesn't seem much like "conductor" to me.  Hydrogen Audio's tag mapping cross reference doesn't reference "@con" either:

http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=Tag_Mapping#People_.26_Organizations

My knowledge of this isn't very deep, so I could definitely be missing something, or I might be unaware of some standard.  Just reporting my findings.

Brian.

[akira54]

I reported this tag above as well. MP3Tag shows it as "CONDUCTOR", so does dbPowerAmp. I just tried a completely different tagger, Qoobar, and its Conductor field shows up empty just like MC, so clearly different systems use different tags for the conductor. Since some of the older tag editors go back to id3 tagging days, they may have implemented it differently from later taggers? Among the Declared ID3v2 frames there is the following: TPE3    [#TPE3 Conductor/performer refinement] (see http://id3.org/id3v2.3.0). Vorbis comments (identical to Flac) assigns the tag PERFORMER to this. My knowledge does not go much further than this at the moment.

[dtc]

It seems that dBpoweramp writes the conductor tag as @con for some reason and it knows to convert that to Conductor. So if you look at  it with dBpoweramp it says Conductor. Other programs see it as @con and do know associate it with Conductor and ignore it.  I looked at the hex of the file and @con is clearly in there in the tagging section.

Not sure of a solution, but I think that identifies the problem. I wounder if there is a solution on the dBpoweramp forum?

[blgentry]

One solution is to commit to JRiver MC and tag using MC.  MC is a pretty darned good tag editor.

Brian.

[dtc]

Here is a link to a discussion on this in the dBpoweramp forum. It discusses @con, Conductor and Performer. The last post claims you can fix this with codec or mp3tag. I do not use those, so do not know the details. You might post in the dBpoweramp forum and see if there is any newer information. This seems like a major problem for dBpoweramp.

https://forum.dbpoweramp.com/showthread.php?23818-Conductor-tag-in-flac&p=111132&viewfull=1*post111132

[akira54]

Here is a link to a discussion on this in the dBpoweramp forum. It discusses @con, Conductor and Performer. The last post claims you can fix this with codec or mp3tag. I do not use those, so do not know the details. You might post in the dBpoweramp forum and see if there is any newer information. This seems like a major problem for dBpoweramp.

https://forum.dbpoweramp.com/showthread.php?23818-Conductor-tag-in-flac&p=111132&viewfull=1*post111132

As I explained in my very first message above, I use MP3Tag. I may have misread the dbPoweramp discussion but aren't they claiming the mapping as used by MP3Tag and dbPoweramp is the "correct" one (i.e. conforms to the vorbis comments standard)? If so, why isn't that supported by MC? Switching to MC may be an option in the future but it does not solve the problem in the existing 20000+ files of classical music.

[dtc]

I think the discussion relates to Performer vs Conductor, not @con.

[JimH]

akira,
in JRiver, you could add a tag that corresponds the tag you do have, and then use MC's Tools to copy it to MC's Composer tag.

[dtc]

akira,
in JRiver, you could add a tag that corresponds the tag you do have, and then use MC's Tools to copy it to MC's Composer tag.

That was my first thought. I tried adding @con as a tag in MC and MC still did not see the tag in the file. It was a quick test and I want to repeat it. But on first try it did not work.

[JimH]

The case matters.  The @ symbol could cause problems.  Try escaping it with a back slash.

[dtc]

I tried some more and still cannot make it work.  Black slash does not help. Incidentally it is a copyright sign (hex A9) not an at sign (hex 40). Looking at the hex, there is also a " (hex 22) in from of the copyright. Tried all sorts of combinations and nothing worked.

I did add another tag (Profile) that was in the file and that worked fine.

Incidentally there is also a ©prf entry - for Performer. Cannot get MC to do anything with that either.

Some sort of batch convert in mp3tag to a tag without the © might be an option.

Not sure what else to try.

[ferday]

make your field in JRiver (i.e. conductor, i called mine Con to avoid any potential issues but call it whatever).  make the same EXACT field in mp3tag

in mp3tag, use the Quick Action.  choose
field = Con
format string = %Conductor%

this copies CONDUCTOR to Con.  Now in MC, select your files and update library from tags.  it will populate the Con field just fine.

i just tested and it works and it's super fast.  this would work with performer or whatever.  it will take more time to finish a glass of nice red than it would to tag 20,000 tracks.

[akira54]

Thanks, that should do the trick. I'll try it as soon as I have a moment. To all of you, thanks a lot for all your time.

Would it be a good idea to catch this problem at the MC import stage, especially since it is caused by programs that are used a lot and which even might be adhering to a standard of sorts?

[akira54]

I am still trying to get my head around this in an attempt to understand what is going on and also to find a way to use MP3Tag to copy the contents of its ©con tag directly to the one used by MC, and that is when I made a strange discovery. I used MC to add a conductor to its own conductor field and used MediaInfo to see what tag was used. Low and behold, it shows up as ©con as well! If MC uses the same tag as MP3Tag it is not a mapping problem and presumably an internal problem in MC. MP3Tag for example has no problem with that: conductors added to the Conductor field in MC show up just fine in that field as do of course those added by MP3Tag itself. Curiouser and curiouser ...

[dtc]

I took on of your files and added Conductor tag value TEST using MC. I looked at it in MediaInfo and it says Conductor :Test and ©con : Karl Bohm. So I think MC is indeed writing the tag as Conductor. Check MediaInfo to see if both entries are there.

Post your file and I can look at the contents. If you are technical, I use Tiny Hexer to look at the file. You just scan the tags area for the information.

I think ferday has the solution.

[akira54]

I took on of your files and added Conductor tag value TEST using MC. I looked at it in MediaInfo and it says Conductor :Test and ©con : Karl Bohm. So I think MC is indeed writing the tag as Conductor. Check MediaInfo to see if both entries are there.

Post your file and I can look at the contents. If you are technical, I use Tiny Hexer to look at the file. You just scan the tags area for the information.

I think ferday has the solution.

I stand corrected. I tested once more and used MC to fill the Conductor field in a file that had no metadata. When I checked the conductor showed up in the CONDUCTOR field and the  ©con field was missing. I have also been in touch with Florian Heidenreich, the maker of MP3Tag, who was very quick to respond (as usual) and his explanation here follows:


I've installed a Trial version of MC and can report that MC writes the Conductor as a user-defined iTunes-compatible field named "Conductor". Mp3tag supports those fields and displays them with their name in the program – hence it's shown as CONDUCTOR in Mp3tag. Once you write the tag in Mp3tag however it gets written as the @con MP4 atom.

The @con name is used for conductor as described in the Apple iTunes Metadata Format Specification http://documents.mx/documents/itmf-specification.html – Hope that sheds some light into this issue :-)

[dtc]

In fact, in one of your files (1_08 Mozart-Bei Männern, welche Liebe fühlen)  there are entries for

@gen  - Genre
@alb   - Album Name
@art   - Album Artist
@wrt   - Composer
@nam - Song (Track) Name
@day  - Release Day

and MC recognizes them correct.

It seems like MC is recognizing some of the iTunes tags but not all of them.  Something as common as Conductor should be added to MC's list of tags to recognize, since it appears they already have the logic in place to do the conversions. Ideally the entire list of approximately 20 additional iTunes tag should be added to MC given the mechanism already exists or at least the ones for which MC has the existing tags by default.

From the linked document, the standard tags looked like they are already implemented in MC. The optional ones are not. These are the optional tags listed:

Art Director   ©arg
Lyricist/Author ©aut
Copyright Acknowledgement(s) ©cak
Conductor ©con
Song Description ©des
Director ©dir
Equalization ©equ
Liner Notes ©lnt
Record Company ©mak
Original Artist ©ope
Phonogram Rights (P-Line) ©phg
Producer ©prd
Performer ©prf
Publisher ©pub
Sound Engineer  ©sne
Soloist ©sol
Credits ©src
Thanks/Dedications ©thx
URL ©url
Online Extras ©xpd

[akira54]

It seems like MC is recognizing some of the iTunes tags but not all of them.  Something as common as Conductor should be added to MC's list of tags to recognize, since it appears they already have the logic in place to do the conversions. Ideally the entire list of approximately 20 additional iTunes tag should be added to MC given the mechanism already exists or at least the ones for which MC has the existing tags by default.

Thank you. My sentiments exactly.

[dtc]

Of the tags listed above, the ones that MC has by default are

Conductor
Copyright
Director
Lyricist
Performer
Producer
Publisher
Soloist

These seem like common enough tags that the iTunes conversions in MC should be extended to these, along with any of the standard ones that are not implemented, if any.

[Matt]

Coming next build of v23:
NEW: The "Conductor" field is imported from the "©con" tag of MP4 files.
NEW: The "Director" field is imported from the "©dir" tag of MP4 files.
NEW: The "Producer" field is imported from the "©prd" tag of MP4 files.

If there are others that we should obviously add, just say the word.  Thanks.

[akira54]

Coming next build:
NEW: The "Conductor" field is imported from the "©con" tag of MP4 files.
NEW: The "Director" field is imported from the "©dir" tag of MP4 files.
NEW: The "Producer" field is imported from the "©prd" tag of MP4 files.

If there others that we should obviously add, just say the word.  Thanks.

Great. Thanks.