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[Smithers]

Hi there,

I'm trying to stream DSD files over DLNA. I have an amp that plays DSD files from USB/network and using JRiver on a Mac. I have MC 22 and have just upgraded to MC 23 in a hope that I could get this to work. It plays FLAC files through DLNA just fine. After a bit of searching it seems other people have had the same issues with varying equipment but then managed to get things to work. A hiss when DSD bitstreaming is selected, and refusal to play when DSD bitstreaming is not ticked. I have made sure my dlna preferences are set up as recommended.

Any ideas would be most grateful. It's driving me bananas! A similar fix seemed to be done by editing File Associations.xml. It seems to be that J River is missing mime types for DSF/DFF files? My main stumbling block is how do you edit or add mime types in file associations for a Mac?! Is it a terminal command? I just kind of need an idiots guide work though.


I also found this post from a couple of years ago.......

"I've just added two lines to FileAssociations.xml in <Audio></Audio> section:

<Item Name="dff">audio/x-dff</Item>
<Item Name="dsf">audio/x-dsf</Item>

Without them, when I browsing JRiver DLNA server from my OPPO (BDP-105EU) DFF files are not visible. After adding MIME type definitions, DFF files are recognized and played correctly. My settings are shown in attachment".

Where would the file associations in Audio be located?

Many thanks

[bob]

The FileAssociations.xml file on the Mac is in the App.
/Applications/Media Center 23.app/Contents/Resources/Data/Default Resources/FileAssociations.xml
However the mimetypes are already there (as well as in MC22).

It's more likely that your DAC can't play DSD over DLNA. This is very common. Most DAC's that provide usb or samba connections are able to handle more media types over those connections than they do over DLNA.

That said you COULD try editing the FileAssociations.xml entries under Audio thusly:

<Item Name="dff">audio/dff</Item>
<Item Name="dsf">audio/dsf</Item>

There are a LOT of non-standard mimetypes used in DLNA and this may work on yours.

[Smithers]

Thanks for looking at this Bob.

My DAC is from a Sony STR-DN 1080 and on Sony's website it states a few times that it can play DSD through DLNA.

"The STR-DN1080 supports a wide variety of High-Resolution Audio formats, including both DSD and Linear PCM. What’s more, playback is possible with USB, HDMI and DLNA connectivity, and multi-channel capabilities let you incorporate the high quality sound into an immersive surround system."

I couldn't find the location you said. If I go to /Applications/Media Centre 23 - it just opens the programme? Am I missing something obvious here? When you say the "FileAssociations.xml file is in the App." how do you actually get to it on OS X?

I downloaded a programme called DefaultApps which I was hoping would enable me to add/edit mime types but in my version on Mac OSX Sierra, the mime types tab is missing?!

Many thanks

Smithers

[Awesome Donkey]

In the Applications folder, just right click on the Media Center 23 app, and select Show package contents, then navigate to the file Bob mentioned.

[JimH]

A receiver sometimes may support a format when directly connected and not support it via DLNA.

[Smithers]

Thanks, great, found that now.

After editing those Mime Types I was unfortunately unsuccessful. Have reverted back to the original.

I think as far as I can tell I have configured DLNA correctly.

Audiophile 24 Bit DAC

Audio > Original/PCM 24 BIT

Advanced > Just DLNA and DLNA Extra ticked. Bitstream DSD unticked (this just causes very faint audio/hiss with mostly white noise).

It's a blinking mystery!

[blgentry]

Have you considered connecting your DAC via USB?  You should be able to do what you want that way.

Brian.

[Smithers]

If I connect my NAS drive directly to the DAC through USB then I don't think I'll be able control the music through JRiver MC? Would it be possible to hook up my nas and still use MC? If so it's no biggy for DLNA although I'll have a cable sticking out of the front of me receiver 

[bob]

Thanks for looking at this Bob.

My DAC is from a Sony STR-DN 1080 and on Sony's website it states a few times that it can play DSD through DLNA.

"The STR-DN1080 supports a wide variety of High-Resolution Audio formats, including both DSD and Linear PCM. What’s more, playback is possible with USB, HDMI and DLNA connectivity, and multi-channel capabilities let you incorporate the high quality sound into an immersive surround system."

I couldn't find the location you said. If I go to /Applications/Media Centre 23 - it just opens the programme? Am I missing something obvious here? When you say the "FileAssociations.xml file is in the App." how do you actually get to it on OS X?

I downloaded a programme called DefaultApps which I was hoping would enable me to add/edit mime types but in my version on Mac OSX Sierra, the mime types tab is missing?!

Many thanks

Smithers

Unfortunately the way that's worded doesn't explicitly say that it supports DSD via DLNA. Just that it supports multiple audio formats including DSD and multiple methods of delivery.

If you have Original Format selected (which is what you wanted) in the Audio options under the DLNA server the rest of the settings are ignored.

What about hooking up the DAC to the MC Mac via USB? Seems like the simplest solution.

[blgentry]

If I connect my NAS drive directly to the DAC through USB [...]

That's not what I was trying to suggest.  I'm suggesting that you connect a USB cable from your Mac, which runs JRiver MC to the USB jack on your DAC. Then MC can directly control your DAC, which should allow you to use most all of it's formats pretty easily.

Brian.

[Smithers]

Thanks, appreciate your help on this one. The thing about hooking up my Mac via USB is 1, I don't have enough storage on my Mac to hold all my DSD files and 2, I can't seem to get the the receiver to accept the connection even if I did. I think I would need to install drivers in the Mac audio MIDI setup but I have no idea where I can get these. Nothing on the Sony or apple websites.

On the specs sheet for the Sony STR DN-1080 it shows that .dsf and .dsdiff files are compatible for DLNA, but then does have a caveat in small print. The thing is when I try and play a song in MC it instantly come up with the errors. Not on the receiver menu. This is what gave me a Columbo style hunch that it might have something to do with the settings in MC. And I've seen that the same thing was happening with Oppo. I also read that someone had a Sony STR-DN1050 and encountered the same problems but then got it to work. So I just wondered if there was anything else that I hadn't thought about?

Thanks


Supported music formats (*1)
MP3 (MPEG 1 Audio Layer-3):
.mp3
AAC/HE-AAC (*2):
.m4a, .aac
WMA9 Standard (*2):
.wma
LPCM:
.wav
FLAC:
.flac, .fla
DSF (*2):
.dsf
DSDIFF (*2)(*3):
.dff
AIFF (*2):
.aiff, .aif
ALAC:
.m4a
Vorbis
.ogg
Monkey’s Audio
.ape
*1 Compatibility with all encoding/writing software, recording devices and recording media cannot be guaranteed.

*2 The receiver may not play this file format on the home network server.

*3 The receiver does not play DST encoded files.

[Awesome Donkey]

Actually, the majority of DACs don't need any drivers whatsoever for use on Mac (since macOS has built-in support for USB Audio Class 2.0), so they're pretty plug-and-play after connecting via USB.

As for getting DSD playback working (and perhaps any Hi-Res files too) after connecting the DAC directly to the Mac via USB, open the Audio MIDI Setup app (found in the Applications > Utilities folder), find your DAC and set the bit-depth and sample rate to the highest available, e.g. 32-bit 192,000 Hz. Then for DSD playback open MC and go to MC's Options > Audio section, make sure the DAC is selected for use (and not the system default Core Audio device), go to device settings and enable exclusive access then back in the Audio settings enable DSD bitstreaming. That should do it.

Regarding storing files, I wouldn't advise storing them on the main system anyways. I'd get something like an external hard drive or NAS to contain everything.

[blgentry]

The thing about hooking up my Mac via USB is 1, I don't have enough storage on my Mac to hold all my DSD files

That shouldn't matter.  Do you have your DSD files imported into MC?  Do they show there?  If so, you can play those files to any DAC that you attach to your Mac.

2, I can't seem to get the the receiver to accept the connection even if I did. I think I would need to install drivers in the Mac audio MIDI setup but I have no idea where I can get these.

I just looked up your "DAC".  I didn't read your posts carefully enough I guess.  I didn't realize this was a Sony RECEIVER and not a stand alone DAC.  So, your receiver has a USB A port on the front, which is designed for thumb drives.  It does not appear to have a USB B port (the larger square type).  Which pretty much means that this receiver is not capable of being connected to a computer via USB.  The manual seems to confirm this, though I didn't dig very deeply.

I *did* read that section saying that DSF files are supported via the network.  Sorry I don't have any advice to offer on that front.

As a last resort, you can always have MC convert your DSD files, on the fly, to PCM and send that to your receiver.  That way you can at least listen to the music.

Good luck.

Brian.

[Awesome Donkey]

Ah, in that case you *could* open MC's Options > Media Network, click on Add or configure DLNA servers... then select your server (or create one if needed) then click the little arrow next to Advanced on the bottom (like in the following screenshot) and check the Bitstream DSD option.



From what I can tell, that *should* enable DSD over DLNA.

[Smithers]

Thanks guys,

Yes it is just USB A on the front... I had pondered the conversion to FLAC as that seems to work seamlessly with MC and DLNA. It really is good. But one of the main reasons why I went for this receiver is it's ability to play multichannel DSD albums that I have from my SACD collection. I think there is the possibility that it should be able to do this technically through DLNA but it may require a firmware update from Sony. Currently I have a NAS connected by ethernet to the receiver and those files (with location) imported into MC.

I have tried the bitstreaming option and I do get a success in terms that the receiver accepts the file. But it plays mostly white noise - I can hear a very faint trace of the music if I turn this white noise up.

Cheers

[dtc]

My guess is that your receiver is set up to accept DSD from a SACD player but not from a MAC. Most receivers only accept native sample rates, which MACs do not send.  Let me explain.

There are 2 ways to send DSD to a DAC/receiver - native and DoP (Digital over PCM). Native sends it at the native DSDsample rate - like 2.8 MHz. MACs do not support that rate so they use the alternative DoP format. DoP packs the DSD data into a PCM format and sends it at PCM rates - 176 KHz for 2.8 MHz DSD. The receiver needs to recognize the DoP format and turn it back into native DSD.  if the receiver does not understand the DoP format it will try to play it as PCM. DoP is set up to play low level white noise if the receiver does not understand DoP.  It does that to avoid very loud playback if the receiver does not recognize the DoP format.   It sounds like your receiver may not accept DoP format and that is why you hear the low level white noise. Most receivers do not understand DoP as they were designed to get SACD data directly from a SACD player.

Unfortunately, I do not see any discussion in the receiver manual about the DSD transmission format, so it is hard to be sure. But, since it does not mention DoP, I think there is a good chance that it does not accept DoP, only native DSD. The white noise seems to confirm that.

[blgentry]

My guess is that your receiver is set up to accept DSD from a SACD player but not from a MAC. Most receivers only accept native sample rates, which MACs do not send.

I don't think that applies here, as the OP is trying to play DSD over DLNA.  The manual seems to indicate that the receiver can decode DSD via it's network adapter.  So presumably it understands DoPE ?  But maybe not.  Otherwise, how would you send DSD over a DLNA (network) connection?  Is there a "native" DSD over ethernet?  If so, I don't think any flavor of MC (Windows, Mac, or Linux) supports anything other than DoPE.

This is mostly speculation for me.  I don't have any DACs or receivers that support DSD.

Brian.

[dtc]

Brian - I am not a DLNA expert. Can you send 2.8 MHz or 5.6 MHz over DLNA from a MAC?   My guess is that the DLNA DSD works from a SACD (like an Oppo) but not from a MAC, but I am not a MAC guy like you, so I am also speculating.

The white noise is very indicative of a DoP signal that is not understood. The 8 most significant bits are set to insure low level white noise. That is my main reason for believing that the receiver is receiving a DoP signal and does not understand it. DoP is commonly implemented in DACs but  less often in receivers.

[Smithers]

I see, the mystery is starting to unravel! Thanks... I do have a sort of budget Sony BluRay/SACD player that has a network connection and USB A input. Perhaps it's possible to stream to the SACD player and then connect to the receiver through HDMI? Annoyingly I have misplaced the remote for the SACD player so I won't be able to test this theory for a week or so! If not it's going to take a long while to save up for an OPPO!

But I have managed to play my SACD tracks by doing the PCM conversion! (I think that's what's happening). I have selected Specified Output Format which enabled me to access the DSP studio. Then I changed Output setting to nothing greater then 192khz. It sounds good. Would it be better to leave it at 176khz though (as that is the rate for DSD DoP conversion) or would it not matter?

Thanks...

[dtc]

In the Audio settings menus on the Sony there is an option to turn on DSD. Is that turned on? May also be available on the remote. There is also a light on the front panel for DSD I believe.

I am not sure what Audio Path in MC shows when using DLNA but you might take a look and see if it adds any more information.

If you have to go the PCM route, converting to 176Khz is probably better than 192 KHz because the PCM conversion with be more efficient. I doubt you will hear any different between 176 and 192 KHz. In DSP Studio I would convert multiples of 176 to 176 and multiples of 192 to 192, again for efficiency.

[dtc]

I missed your statement that you could hear music under the white noise. That means the Sony is reading and decoding the DLNA signal. Is the DSD light on the front panel lit?  This may be some other DLNA probem. In DLNA settings,  do you have mode set to Original? That worked for someone in this forum - http://community.sony.com/t5/Home-Theater-Products/STRDN1050-how-to-play-DSD-over-DLNA/td-p/508737

If you want to look at DLNA in detail AndrewFG has a tool for looking at DLNA renderers in detail - http://www.whitebear.ch/dmra - but it is pretty technical. Otherwise, converting to PCM may be the way to go.

[Smithers]

Thanks. Yes DSD native is on... I've tried some more settings and I think there could be some progress?! I selected Specified Output still but in DSP studio I select DSD in DoP format on the Output Encoding. Bit streaming is still unchecked though in Advanced (DLNA settings). I think I tried this before and got an error message but now it seems to play. On the Receiver it then says LPCM 176.4khz/24 bit and is playing the music. No DSD light though. The sound however seems a step up from PCM conversion but it may just be me getting excited? On to Tools cog it says 'not using JRiver audio engine'.

Just a couple of things - how would I know if this is not just PCM conversion still? Am I restricted to 2 channels? Is Whitebear something that I could to check to see if a DSD signal is successfully being sent through DLNA and accepted?

Many thanks...

[Smithers]

Hi there again MC peeps...

After trying several more efforts to get this working  (Media Centre > DLNA > NAS > DSD capable receiver) I'm starting to think that the mime types to be changed/edited might be located on the NAS itself? I think it's using something called Twonky?

Does anyone know about this for sure? I can pull multichannel DSD files from the NAS through ethernet manually with the receiver remote but I'm really hoping/need to get MC to hook it up. It works so well with Flac and wav files on media centre but there is a definite drop in quality if it converts the dsd file to anything else.

Can I access the twonky mime type directory through Terminal? Is that something to do with SSH?! Help!

Thanks

Smithers

[bob]

Hi there again MC peeps...

After trying several more efforts to get this working  (Media Centre > DLNA > NAS > DSD capable receiver) I'm starting to think that the mime types to be changed/edited might be located on the NAS itself? I think it's using something called Twonky?

Does anyone know about this for sure? I can pull multichannel DSD files from the NAS through ethernet manually with the receiver remote but I'm really hoping/need to get MC to hook it up. It works so well with Flac and wav files on media centre but there is a definite drop in quality if it converts the dsd file to anything else.

Can I access the twonky mime type directory through Terminal? Is that something to do with SSH?! Help!

Thanks

Smithers

How are you accessing the file you are tying to play on your renderer?
(Media Centre > DLNA > NAS > DSD capable receiver) doesn't make sense to me. How does the NAS get in the path between DLNA and the DSD capable receiver?

[Smithers]

So I have imported the file(s) from the location of my NAS into MC then have set up DLNA which pops up on the side when I switch the receiver on. The Nas is connected to the receiver through a gigabyte router and then ethernet to the receiver.

Looking at other posts it seems the dnla settings in MC must be set to original/pcm24 and bitstreaming dsd not ticked for it to work. When I looked at the mime types (which you kindly pointed out) in MC it has dsf,dff, dsd as     >audio/x-dsf      but looking at the Flac and wav files which work seemlessly they have it also without the x and also with the -x!

I thought replicating that for dsd might work but alas not got there yet. I know you said dsd might not be capable over dnla in this set up but my gut feeling is that it just needs to locate the file, given the speed with the error message?

Thanks

[bob]

So the files you are playing reside on the NAS.
You are seeing those in MC via
1) A SAMBA/CIFS connection to the NAS and importing the files from a share.
or
2) Loading the NAS library into MC as a DLNA server from the Playing From section of the MC tree.

There will be differences in how the files are presented to the renderer in those 2 cases.
Which are you using?

[Smithers]

Yep all my files are on the NAS. I'm a bit of a dumbwit regarding this so not sure which of those 2 options I have used?! I think it's the samba/cifs? When I imported the files into MC I did - File > Library > Import, then selected the NAS under shared/network tab and then looked for the album(s) I wanted. The tracks/ album artwork came up and was able to play non dsd files from then on over dnla. Just another caveat I can play the dsd files from my NAS onto my laptop but just can't seem to get them pushed onto the receiver, which has all the speakers!

[bob]

Yep all my files are on the NAS. I'm a bit of a dumbwit regarding this so not sure which of those 2 options I have used?! I think it's the samba/cifs? When I imported the files into MC I did - File > Library > Import, then selected the NAS under shared/network tab and then looked for the album(s) I wanted. The tracks/ album artwork came up and was able to play non dsd files from then on over dnla. Just another caveat I can play the dsd files from my NAS onto my laptop but just can't seem to get them pushed onto the receiver, which has all the speakers!

Ok, so the files are actually being served by MC (choice 1 above).
If you were connecting the the NAS library (choice 2 above), the mimetype setting on the NAS would take precedence.

So we are back to where we were before. With the settings we were discussing, I don't see why your renderer won't play the native DSD.

[Smithers]

Thanks Bob, I know it should work as everything is set up. To test my theory I just downloaded the twonky server to run on my laptop. It's a bit clunky but I was actually successful in sending a DSD file to my receiver in the same manner of selecting a folder from my NAS as I was doing on MC through DLNA. It actually worked and showed up as DSD on the screen and the DSD light flashed up on the panel display. I believe my NAS is running twonky to handle the media files so I just need to join the link between that and MC?

[bob]

Thanks Bob, I know it should work as everything is set up. To test my theory I just downloaded the twonky server to run on my laptop. It's a bit clunky but I was actually successful in sending a DSD file to my receiver in the same manner of selecting a folder from my NAS as I was doing on MC through DLNA. It actually worked and showed up as DSD on the screen and the DSD light flashed up on the panel display. I believe my NAS is running twonky to handle the media files so I just need to join the link between that and MC?

Or find out what the mimetype the Twonky on your PC is using to serve the DSD file.

[Smithers]

Don't suppose you'd know where I could find that Bob?

I couldn't find a similar folder to the Media Centre FileAssociations.xml where the mime types could be seen and edited with text edit.
 

[bob]

I'm not familiar enough with Twonky to know where to look for that.
The mimetype isn't going to be reflected in the display in MC either, just the extension which is in the DLNA universe not useful.

If you have a PC around you could install the UPnP tools for developer (free) and run device spy while it's playing back and do the "GetMediaInfo" function to discover the metadata (including mimetype).

Alternately you'd need to install wireshark on the twonky machine and sniff the transaction between the twonky machine and your renderer.

[AndrewFG]

Did you already run the DMRA from my sig? Can you post the report here?

Also the DMRA has some additional tabs where you can test pushing different mime where there are different logging options that may enable you to see what's going on..

[Smithers]

Hi Andrew yes I tried to download it but couldn't find an application on how to open it on a Mac. My receiver is the Sony STR-DN1080, there is a renderer report on whitebear for the Sony STR DN1050 but I'm not they have the same specs regarding DSD.

I did another search and might have seen some progress as another user successfully did dsd over dlna on a Sony machine after changing the mime type in MC fileassociations.xml. <Item Name="dsf">audio/x-dsf</Item> to have /x-dsd at the end. I'm actually away for a week now so can't test this theory, grrr!

I think I read this and bob's advice before but I wasn't too familiar with the whole process so has taken me a while to understand!

Anyway I shall test this out in a week and update the results. Cautiously optimistic...

[Smithers]

Hi guys,

Just a quick update - SUCCESS! Can now stream DSD over DLNA. Very Happy!! I did indeed need to change the dsf and dff mime types to have x-dsd at the end. Thanks for your help... Will be listening contently.

[bob]

Hi guys,

Just a quick update - SUCCESS! Can now stream DSD over DLNA. Very Happy!! I did indeed need to change the dsf and dff mime types to have x-dsd at the end. Thanks for your help... Will be listening contently.

Thanks for the report back!

[mtnmarty]

@ the OP and JRiver team, maybe you can check-out the Serviio DLNA server it works on Windows 10 and Mac for me with the Sony STR-DN1080. What I really want of course is for MC to be able to serve my files up to the Sony as the renderer as opposed to the Sony taking the files off the Serviio DLNA server but until I have a chance to work through the post to see how it's done, at least I can listen to native unmolested dsd music now.

I look forward to you guys working this out, and hope the Serviio server might give you some insight. Oh, and I tried the stuff I thought should have worked with MC 24.0.19 (64-bit) on Win 10 Pro 64-bit 1803, added a new generic DLNA server w/wo Advanced settings Bitstream DSD (req DoPE renderer) DLNA Extra, tried ASIO4ALL all with no joy.
Serviio is available for Windows, Mac and other OS for free. https://www.serviio.org

[mtnmarty]

Hi guys,

Just a quick update - SUCCESS! Can now stream DSD over DLNA. Very Happy!! I did indeed need to change the dsf and dff mime types to have x-dsd at the end. Thanks for your help... Will be listening contently.

@Smithers, I tried modifying the FileAssociations.xml mime types as I thought you wrote but I still have the music buried in noise the same as the original. I suspect I'm not editing it correctly. Are either of these what you meant by "mime types to have x-dsd at the end"?

original:
      <Item Name="dff">audio/x-dff</Item>
      <Item Name="dsf">audio/x-dsf</Item>
 1st edit attempt
      <Item Name="dff">audio/x-dsd</Item>
      <Item Name="dsf">audio/x-dsd</Item>
2nd edit attempt
      <Item Name="dff">audio/x-dff/x-dsd</Item>
      <Item Name="dsf">audio/x-dsf/x-dsd</Item>