INTERACT FORUM

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: User Interface  (Read 12561 times)

tyler69

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 946
User Interface
« on: December 18, 2017, 03:41:55 am »

I'd like to state my opinion on JimH's comments in https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,113636.0.html

JRemote
A few years ago, user LesPaul developed JRemote and it proved to be very popular.  I asked him if he might like to sell it to us and work for the company full time.  He eventually accepted.  After about a year, he quit.  This left us with code written in a language we don't normally use, on a development platform we don't use, and no significant expertise on iOS.  So JRemote continues to be popular, but we don't expect to work on it.


While I appreciate the honesty, this is really a bummer. As you don't have significant expertise, I assume that users shouldn't expect an (maybe newly developed, since this might be easier to achieve than moving the existing code) iOS app from JRiver, correct?

A Simpler Interface
While we could change the interface, and move somethings around, I don't think it's possible to make an interface that is both simple and powerful.  Moving things would also be a problem to people who know the inteface well.  Windows has changed their user interface for networking so many times that I've given up trying to understand it.


Well, it should be "as simple as possible, but not simpler." To me it's about consistency and minimizing interaction costs. So I don't see the argument: "This tool is so powerful, therefore the interface needs to be complex". A complex interface can also be intuitive and consistent.
Changing the GUI always creates some confusion to users. It's about how the changes are perceived: if they actually benefit the usage/workflow of the users the changes tend to be adapted. But when changes do not lead to usability benefits, then it becomes a problem for users (e.g. windows).

A More Beautiful Interface
While I've seen this requested many times, I've never seen a design and I doubt that people could agree on what it should look like.


I guess this is because users probably expect the vendor to come up with a new interface. They see for example Plex, Roon or AppleTV and base their opinion on the difference the GUI's make in usage. I recently bought an AppleTV and the UX is day and night compared with MC. If it wasn't for several functionality MC provides, I'd move to an AppleTV completely.
The consensus on how the GUI should look like will most probably always be an issue. Now and in the future. But when users tend to comment so often about the GUI design, then this might be an indication that at least "some" users see this as an area to optimize. I am not following other media players' forums but I hypothesise that those forums are not filled with "please work on the interface" posts.

A More Intuitive Interface
Same answer.


Same answer.
Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 72538
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: User Interface
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2017, 03:53:29 am »

Well, it should be "as simple as possible, but not simpler." To me it's about consistency and minimizing interaction costs. ...

... users probably expect the vendor to come up with a new interface.
We've done that several times over the years.  Theater View, JRemote, Gizmo, Panel.  I realize that you may not like any of them.

If you have an idea to suggest, please be specific.
Logged

mattkhan

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 4271
Re: User Interface
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2017, 05:31:53 am »

Quote
This left us with code written in a language we don't normally use, on a development platform we don't use, and no significant expertise on iOS.  So JRemote continues to be popular, but we don't expect to work on it.
I find this slightly confusing. Android/iOS development surely isn't a dead end given the number of devices in the field so if it's a popular interface, why don't you invest in it?
Logged

rec head

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1012
Re: User Interface
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2017, 08:14:59 am »

Jim, sorry to just pile it on without having an answer but asking people to tell you how the interface should look is kind of like asking me to draw what I want my new car to look like. If that was the case I'd be lucky to get one with 4 wheels. When it comes time to get a new car I shop around for the one that I like best.

There are many examples of theater view types of interfaces to learn from and copy. Personally I don't think MC's Theater View looks bad and I find it to be perfectly functional for what I do with it which is selecting and playing music and video. But compared to other interfaces it does feel dated.

The Standard View is complicated to learn. I have a decent grasp on how to use it but that didn't happen over night. I have no idea how to make it look or work better but would welcome the change.

P.S. I just learned in one of these threads that I could search for options. I don't know how long that has been the case but it is a great feature. I use it all the time in Windows.
Logged

connersw

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 661
Re: User Interface
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2017, 09:15:41 am »

A More Beautiful Interface
While I've seen this requested many times, I've never seen a design and I doubt that people could agree on what it should look like.

A More Intuitive Interface

Same answer.

As has already been commented, the users should not be designing the interface.  Besides not being able to agree, they really don't have any expertise in the matter.  User interface engineering is a degree that people go to school for.  I know most of your engineers are highly talented at what they do; however, this is a separate field.  It might be worth looking at bringing in a consultant.  If you don't look at Theater View and see that it is dated compared to your competitors (Plex, Kodi, Roon, Android / Fire TV), then I don't know what to tell you.

If you're looking for specific changes that could be implemented incrementally, I have given you that feedback before.  Essentially, Theater View is a wall of text.  Being able to use images will both make the interface more eye pleasing, and make it more intuitive.  Please see this post: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,103135.msg717138.html#msg717138

I really think that increasing the functionality of the Cover Art folder would go a long way in improving Theater View.  It would be the easiest to implement because you would not need to add any pages or drastically change the UI.  The way it would work is the same logic as pulling Season or Series cover art so you would not need to reinvent the wheel with much new code.  Plus, it could be implemented a little bit at a time.  You could provide stock images, but it would also allow users to customize any images they wanted themselves fairly easily. 

For example, start with Genre.  Add a Genre folder to /Cover Art with stock images for a dozen or so Genres.  Something like these:  http://i.imgur.com/4yaSxRX.jpg  In Theater View, every time the Genre tag says "Action" it would pull the "Action" image instead of fanned cover art or just having text.  There would be a stock image if the Genre does not match any images.  Users could change, add, or delete whatever images they wanted for specific Genres just by editing the /Cover Art/Genre folder.

From there, you could add additional folders, like one for MPAA Rating, Codec, Channels, etc.

Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 72538
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: User Interface
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2017, 09:54:32 am »

I find this slightly confusing. Android/iOS development surely isn't a dead end given the number of devices in the field so if it's a popular interface, why don't you invest in it?
I didn't say anything about Android.  We've got better skills there.

Future development may be more focused on web apps.  A lot can be done with them and they solve the multi-platform issues.
Logged

AndrewFG

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3392
Re: User Interface
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2017, 10:27:21 am »

Just my 2c.. If you guys were to suddenly orphan JRemote (or break it) then I would be forced to drop MC and look for another media centre application. I’m serious. None of your web based applications have the functionality, or “sharpness” of JRemote.
Logged
Author of Whitebear Digital Media Renderer Analyser - http://www.whitebear.ch/dmra.htm
Author of Whitebear - http://www.whitebear.ch/mediaserver.htm

jachin99

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 559
Re: User Interface
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2017, 10:37:11 am »

A few features I see on Kodi, Emby, Etc. that I think could greatly add to JRiver are Movie trailers for both Movies you own, and Theater releases, and Live backgrounds for each movie.  I have Live backgrounds setup in Emby where when I go into the details page, it plays either a trailer or the DVD menu animation, and I think that is something that would be great for JRiver.  I don't know if there is a database that MC could pull these backgrounds from yet, and I think a few different people are hosting their own for other platforms but maybe someday that will change and MC could implement this. 

It seems like adding the option to view a trailer for your movie files wouldn't be too hard though.  And about panel, it might not look great to some but I think a simple interface like this is needed for controlling JRiver from some of the more Obscure devices (For example,  a samsung refrigerator). 
Logged

mattkhan

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 4271
Re: User Interface
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2017, 12:05:08 pm »

I didn't say anything about Android.  We've got better skills there.
I interpreted the earlier comment as simply a statement of the current reality (jremote is on life support only, future dev is on HTML5) so I'm not sure what you mean there, do you refer to an android MC client or that android jremote may see enhancements that the iOS version does not?
Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 72538
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: User Interface
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2017, 12:27:41 pm »

I interpreted the earlier comment as simply a statement of the current reality (jremote is on life support only, future dev is on HTML5) so I'm not sure what you mean there, do you refer to an android MC client or that android jremote may see enhancements that the iOS version does not?
Life support is a loaded term. 

JRemote is a very popular product, with very few problems.  It generates significant income.  We don't plan any changes.  That's not uncommon in software development.

I also didn't say that HTML5 is the only thing we'll do with respect to remotes.
Logged

mattkhan

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 4271
Re: User Interface
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2017, 02:42:23 pm »

FWIW my vote goes to making it possible for the user to write plugins for panel. For example, I am currently writing my own little webapp using mcws to fill a gap that is important to me. It would be nice to be able to a) share such a plugin in a way others could easily consume, and b) enjoy a more integrated experience once it is working.
Logged

Manfred

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1038
Re: User Interface
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2017, 03:59:21 pm »

My 5 cents:
- Standard View I use for Management of my Library/Ripping/Configure Media Network etc. It has many capabilities, but sometimes that makes it also complicate - it's flexibility vs. convenience. In this case I would vote more for flexibility.
- For testing Libray changes etc., I use typically Theatre View, which is OK for me. It is easy to use ( if you have configure it to your needs using standard view)
- I have several times tested the new browser base HTML interface - but I don't like it - compared to JRemote it looks bad for me (Sorry -.).
- JRemote for controlling MC: I love it - every friend of me, who had seen it - WOW, easy, elegant, brilliant Design etc. Personally I would be willing to pay a yearly fee, if that is missing to further develop JRemote

I really understand the challenge to develop for Android, iOS etc. - but in today's user=customer centric world, people who pay a lot for there iOS device want simply the best for there Apple device and not a development compromise.
Logged
WS (AMD Ryzen 7 5700G, 32 GB DDR4-3200, 8=2x2+4 TB SDD, LG 34UC98-W)-USB|ADI-2 DAC FS|Canton AM5 - File Server (i3-3.9 GHz, 16GB ECC DDR4-2400, 46 TB disk space) - Media Renderer (i3-3.8 GHz, 8GB DDR4-2133, GTX 960)-USB|Devialet D220 Pro|Audeze LCD 2|B&W 804S|LG 4K OLED )

Vocalpoint

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 2007
Re: User Interface
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2017, 04:53:49 pm »

I can tell you that we give everything we have.  We're not holding back.

Jim

Apologies Jim I have to disagree on your statement. If you gave everything you have - we would see some evidence of JRiver hiring a iOS developer and getting a move on with JRemote.

It's evident that many of us want to see something positive happen with JRemote - which is (and most likely always will be) the best part about the JRiver infrastructure for my usage - instead of all these half baked HTML5 apps that have appeared - none of which hold any interest to me.

Seems that with no forward motion on JRemote - you are in fact "holding back". Most companies would be all over an opportunity to sell more of JRemote ("It generates significant income.") and make it their defacto remote centerpiece - but I must admit - I do not understand the JRiver resistance to this at all.

VP
Logged

Headcool

  • Junior Woodchuck
  • **
  • Posts: 70
Re: User Interface
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2017, 07:06:46 pm »

Quote
JRemote
A few years ago, user LesPaul developed JRemote and it proved to be very popular.  I asked him if he might like to sell it to us and work for the company full time.  He eventually accepted.  After about a year, he quit.  This left us with code written in a language we don't normally use, on a development platform we don't use, and no significant expertise on iOS.  So JRemote continues to be popular, but we don't expect to work on it. 

Well, these kind of things happen if your bus factor is only one. However, that was long ago. In the time that went by since then, you should have found a solution. Let a team member learn these technologies, make Gizmo more like JRemote, develop a new alternative, hire someone to further develop JRemote or port it to a language you want. However, not doing anything is just not a good idea.
JRemote is not a finished product. It misses important things like being able to select different audio/subtitle streams. It's cover art caching strategy is absolutely horrible. Playing a searched item still not works and plays the wrong file.

Quote
Tidal, Spotify, etc
We have done many implementations of such services over the years.  They all went out of business.  We won't do more unless we see a proven business model (in other words, we can earn money by doing it).

The streaming business is like a boat.  It's a place to pour money.  They don't make a profit.  Sometimes an owner gets lucky and someone else buys the business, but usually they expire.

I've kept a log of failed (and failing) services here:

Why Streaming Struggles

The big important streaming services did not go out of business. Itunes, Spotify, Netflix, Amazon Prime Video, etc. are here to stay. I understand that you don't want to implement all these services because they need a lot of maintenance and there also some jurisdictional problems because some providers don't allow selling products that access their APIs.
However, not doing anything is not a solution. The answer on how to tackle this problem is the same as 5 years ago: Plugins/Addons. The important services will always have some volunteers in the community that will maintain them. Setting up the API will be a lot of work, however it will provide so much additional value. Imagining to have all Netflix series and all Spotify music in my MC is just wonderful.

Quote
A Simpler Interface
While we could change the interface, and move somethings around, I don't think it's possible to make an interface that is both simple and powerful.  Moving things would also be a problem to people who know the interface well.  Windows has changed their user interface for networking so many times that I've given up trying to understand it.

A More Beautiful Interface
While I've seen this requested many times, I've never seen a design and I doubt that people could agree on what it should look like.

A More Intuitive Interface
Same answer.

But we are always open to suggestions.  And we have built a few interfaces that use MC's engine.

Theater View
JRemote
Gizmo
Panel

These are all very different and are all heavily used.

As LesPaul proved, you can use MC's MCWS interface to build something very complex and good looking.

My experience with MCs interface is that the JRiver team very very very conservative about it. What were the big changes to the interface in the last 5 years? Well, there is a new tag window, which is cool, but other than that?

Like you said there is not one perfect interface. But you should provide a good default interface and the building blocks to make it better. But fact is, you don't supply the blocks needed to do so. One thing that is needed is the ability to use cover arts for arbitrary tags and actually this has already been implemented. But someone in your team decided that cover arts are only allowed for series, albums, artists. If I want to use a cover art for a genre, then I will hit a wall. Another thing that is also needed is the usage of widgets. If I want to display stars for a rating or checkmarks for completion I can use them. But only if I am satisfied with text stars and text checkmarks. If I want to be able to click on these stars to change the rating, then I hit a wall again. The customization of MCs GUI is not really where I would want it to be.

There are also some other things wrong with the interface besides customization.
One is that the scaling of the cover art look blurry because it uses a thumbnail instead of the real thing. I've complained about this multiple times in the last years, without success. It is quite obvious to me, that there is no one in the JRiver team, that understands the importance of eyecandy. A new user will always first look at screenshots and those should be as clear as possible. This is a big issue that should have priority. The interface should always have priority over new features.
Another problem of the interface is how the spacing between covers scales with the window size. The spacing should not scale at all and should always stay in the aspect ration 1:1 or coverwidth:coverheight. Currently the spacing changes every time I re-size the window and I have to re-size it or live with an ugly spacing.

Quote
Will JRiver Earn More Money?
That's the cruel question that every business must ask.  I have an old accountant friend who likes to say that the key to success is that income exceeds expenses.

We have a first rate, even world class, development team (more or less in order of their time at JRiver):

Bob, Yaobing, JohnT, Matt, Hendrik, and Brad.  Keenan works in the summers.  I'm part of the team for some purposes.

These skilled craftsmen do an amazing job.  I'm extremely proud to work with them.  But we have limits.  To work well, we need to respect these limits.  We can't take on every project.

Of course, money is important. But I think you have a pretty bad intuition on how to generate money. If I look on things you have implemented in the last years or wanted to implement, than the verdict does not look good for you. A good example is the Kickstarter campaign you started. The result showed you, that there is absolutely no interest in an area where you have expected it. There is also Engen, which I predict will be unsuccessful because it is outside your core competencies and it only supports Z-Wave. There is literally a graveyard of "features" you implemented and which are unsuccessful.

You have also put lots of work into the TV part of MC, which is not really the place where I would put it. The trend of cable subscriptions is declining. People are using streaming services like Netflix and co.
On the other hand other areas like series and movies skyrocket in the mean time. In 2011 there were about 435k XBMC users. Now there are 38 million Kodi users.  That is 87x as much as before. There is your money. These are the users you need. So the question is why are the using Kodi and not MC? Better customizeability through plugins as well as more powerful skinning. Raspberry Pi support years ago.


What you need to do:
Hire a designer: Someone that can update your website, all the old skins in MC, the forum, etc.
Get the old stuff out of MC (the old Skins that look like they are from 2000, 3d view, etc)
Fix the issues with the interface (scaling and spacing)
Allow more customizeability of the interface (cover arts for arbitrary tags, widgets in the thumbnail text)
Allow more customizeability of the views (subtags which can be used for different depth in views)
Implement the ability to write plugins for scraping/new types of views(including theater view)/streaming services.
Get one of the developers to learn the technologies used in JRemote.
Speak with your community before implementing bigger features.

If your budget is not sufficient, increase the price (Plex and Emby are significantly more expensive). A more expensive product is better than a stagnating product.
Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 72538
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: User Interface
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2017, 01:24:19 am »

... Of course, money is important. But I think you have a pretty bad intuition on how to generate money.
I started JRiver 36 years ago.  We've never taken in any outside money.  We did it the old fashioned way -- we earned it.

Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 72538
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: User Interface
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2017, 01:32:46 am »

Apologies Jim I have to disagree on your statement. If you gave everything you have - we would see some evidence of JRiver hiring a iOS developer and getting a move on with JRemote.
Hiring a developer just for JRemote would not be a good investment.  Think about what a developer costs and then compare it to the cost of JRemote.

The interface is open.  Anyone could hire a developer and see if they can do something better.  That's how JRemote began.

By the way, you're adding 5 blank lines after your "VP".
Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 72538
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: User Interface
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2017, 01:41:37 am »

FWIW my vote goes to making it possible for the user to write plugins for panel. For example, I am currently writing my own little webapp using mcws to fill a gap that is important to me. It would be nice to be able to a) share such a plugin in a way others could easily consume, and b) enjoy a more integrated experience once it is working.
We may do that in the future. 
Logged

rlebrette

  • Guest
Re: User Interface
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2017, 04:34:46 am »

It's evident that many of us want to see something positive happen with JRemote - which is (and most likely always will be) the best part about the JRiver infrastructure for my usage - instead of all these half baked HTML5 apps that have appeared - none of which hold any interest to me.

HTML 5 apps could be the solution.
It works on all mobile systems, in any recent browser and it can be deployed as standalone applications on all major PC OS (win, mac, linux) via platform as nwjs or electron.
This can be used for remote interface but also for 10 feets TV experience (Theater View)
New Javascript/HTML APIs allow data/image caching, advanced graphics and a lot of other things:

The L&F of JRemote is totally doable with HTML5. Some years ago I've already prototyped this in a Gizmo way: https://github.com/rlebrette/jrmc-jqm-gizmo.

I do software architecture for more than 10 years now, and more than 20 years of soft design. I have learnt that the only limits are time/money and skills.
The software teams I have worked with are usualy backed up by a partial time skilled UX designer which gives the good L&F principle. May be this is something missing in the JRiver team. There still are too many complicated UI things in all MediaCenter interfaces (a lot have been already described in various posts, I particularly think about view management which is done in several places in the software)

As Jim wrote, a lot of API are open via MCWS (except recent Panel UI code that's minified by default :().
Even the skilled users of this community could implement something better than what JRiver team is doing.
It's only a matter of will, which starts by gathering all the requirements and build a roadmap.
There still are missing API, for example remote configuration or launching a video and came back to the web UI when finished/stopped, but I think it's matter of hours for the JRiver team to implement them.

Logged

Manfred

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1038
Re: User Interface
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2017, 06:32:30 am »

If it would be possible to implement JRemote in HTML 5, why is the new HTML5 Client not implemented as with JRemote Look and Feel?
Logged
WS (AMD Ryzen 7 5700G, 32 GB DDR4-3200, 8=2x2+4 TB SDD, LG 34UC98-W)-USB|ADI-2 DAC FS|Canton AM5 - File Server (i3-3.9 GHz, 16GB ECC DDR4-2400, 46 TB disk space) - Media Renderer (i3-3.8 GHz, 8GB DDR4-2133, GTX 960)-USB|Devialet D220 Pro|Audeze LCD 2|B&W 804S|LG 4K OLED )

Headcool

  • Junior Woodchuck
  • **
  • Posts: 70
Re: User Interface
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2017, 07:51:17 am »

I started JRiver 36 years ago.  We've never taken in any outside money.  We did it the old fashioned way -- we earned it.

Sure you have earned it. But I always judge a company on how it is doing relative to the market. The market for mediacenters got so many new users(87x for Kodi in 6 years) in the past few years it is really crazy. How did JRiver perform in the last 6 years? How many employees did you have 6 years ago, how many do you have today? I don't think MC has sold that good.
However, that is ok. Nobody could have known how important certain aspects would be. The real problem is that MC is still lacking the features needed to increase its userbase. If you could just get 1% of Kodis userbase, you would have 380k paying customers more. The numbers of potential customers are so much bigger than that of 10 years ago.

If you want to be more successful you need to stop giving excuses and tackle the old design and the missing plugin functionality. And yes you need to hire a designer. If you need to raise the price of MC, that is ok.
Logged

Kid Twist

  • Junior Woodchuck
  • **
  • Posts: 63
Re: User Interface
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2017, 09:06:03 am »

The real problem is that MC is still lacking the features needed to increase its userbase. If you could just get 1% of Kodis userbase, you would have 380k paying customers more.

Yes, Kodi has seen explosive growth, but I'm pretty sure it's not because people decided it has a superior interface to MC. I'm also quite certain that JRiver isn't interested in going after the kind of customers that Kodi has been attracting lately. I'm not saying MC can't be improved, but Kodi is not the right benchmark.
Logged

rlebrette

  • Guest
Re: User Interface
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2017, 12:55:49 pm »

If it would be possible to implement JRemote in HTML 5, why is the new HTML5 Client not implemented as with JRemote Look and Feel?
If you never did programming, it is indeed a good question. I think that the core team is mainly skilled in very technical subjects like audio/video rendering, TV cards, and is using programming languages like C or C++.
Web UI and programming is a totally different world. It requires time to master. For the UI, even me, who use these technologies for years, I work with dedicated UI designers.
It's the difference between technic, art and ergonomy.
Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 72538
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: User Interface
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2017, 01:05:31 pm »

For the UI, even me, who use these technologies for years, I work with dedicated UI designers.
And even they can be wrong.  Think about the much hated Metro interface on Windows 8, and the removal of the Start button.
Logged

rlebrette

  • Guest
Re: User Interface
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2017, 01:36:49 pm »

And even they can be wrong.  Think about the much hated Metro interface on Windows 8, and the removal of the Start button.
We are not talking about visionnary UI designers, just about well trained designers [emoji6]

Logged

Headcool

  • Junior Woodchuck
  • **
  • Posts: 70
Re: User Interface
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2017, 01:45:34 pm »

Yes, Kodi has seen explosive growth, but I'm pretty sure it's not because people decided it has a superior interface to MC. I'm also quite certain that JRiver isn't interested in going after the kind of customers that Kodi has been attracting lately. I'm not saying MC can't be improved, but Kodi is not the right benchmark.

It's not the interface alone. It's more about customizeability. That includes the interface, but also includes other areas like scraping and streaming services.

I want JRiver to rework some aspects of the interface of MC aswell as the website, because the status quo repels potential users.  If I go to the websites of Kodi, Plex or Emby, they all look very beautiful. Jrivers website looks old, the screenshots are not up to date, etc.  A better website with newer screenshots, showing off skins like Modern Cards or MetroX would help boost sales so much.

Because nobody of the development team saw this problem (it was already a problem years ago) it is clear to me that they need a designer. Someone that looks at the website and says:"It's horrible!". Someone that knows you can't ship a "Blue Steel" skin in 2017. It is not a good idea to have only technical people working on a product.
Logged

Kid Twist

  • Junior Woodchuck
  • **
  • Posts: 63
Re: User Interface
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2017, 01:50:41 pm »

It's not the interface alone. It's more about customizeability.

It's about piracy.
Logged

Headcool

  • Junior Woodchuck
  • **
  • Posts: 70
Re: User Interface
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2017, 02:06:04 pm »

It's about piracy.

Which is only possible because of the customizeability of streaming services. Did not prevent Plex and Emby from getting paying customers.
Logged

Awesome Donkey

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 7889
  • Long cold Winter...
Re: User Interface
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2017, 02:13:45 pm »

However, not doing anything is not a solution. The answer on how to tackle this problem is the same as 5 years ago: Plugins/Addons. The important services will always have some volunteers in the community that will maintain them. Setting up the API will be a lot of work, however it will provide so much additional value. Imagining to have all Netflix series and all Spotify music in my MC is just wonderful.

IMO, this is a TERRIBLE idea. Plugins/addons is what would open MC up to the same issues Kodi has with plugins/addons enabling streaming pirated content, plugins/addons enabling streaming services like Netflix and Amazon Prime Video which since JRiver is a US-based company, it *could* become a target allowing litigation for allowing such plugins/addons (or worse, litigation after the addon/plugin developer(s)). Just look at all the legal issues Kodi plugin/addon authors are going through.

Honestly if you want MC to be more like Kodi, then why not just use Kodi? Besides, how would JRiver Media Center, a paid and commercial media center application, compete with a FREE, open-source and cross-platform application like Kodi. How would it attract those free users? It just doesn't make sense to me. Or Plex for that matter. Or any of the other media player apps out there.

MC is in a niche of its own, which is perfect for its uses.
Logged
I don't work for JRiver... I help keep the forums safe from "male enhancements" and other sources of sketchy pharmaceuticals.

Windows 11 24H2 Update 64-bit + Ubuntu 24.10 Oracular Oriole 64-bit | Windows 11 24H2 Update 64-bit (Intel N305 Fanless NUC 16GB RAM/500GB M.2 NVMe SSD)
JRiver Media Center 33 (Windows + Linux) | iFi ZEN DAC 3 | JBL 306P MkII Studio Monitors | Audio-Technica ATH-M50x Headphones

jachin99

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 559
Re: User Interface
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2017, 02:17:06 pm »

IMO, this is a TERRIBLE idea. Plugins/addons is what would open MC up to the same issues Kodi has with plugins/addons enabling streaming pirated content, plugins/addons enabling streaming services like Netflix and Amazon Prime Video which since JRiver is a US-based company, it *could* become a target allowing litigation for allowing such plugins/addons (or worse, litigation after the addon/plugin developer(s)). Just look at all the legal issues Kodi plugin/addon authors are going through.

Honestly if you want MC to be more like Kodi, then why not just use Kodi? Besides, how would JRiver Media Center, a paid and commercial media center application, compete with a FREE, open-source and cross-platform application like Kodi. How would it attract those free users? It just doesn't make sense to me. Or Plex for that matter. Or any of the other media player apps out there.

MC is in a niche of its own, which is perfect for its uses.

Why not kind of meet in the middle, and make it easier to change only the appearance of MC?  This way at the very least each user could attempt to customize the look of MC to get a consistent look and feel across all of their media sources.
Logged

Awesome Donkey

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 7889
  • Long cold Winter...
Re: User Interface
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2017, 02:22:21 pm »

It's as easy as going to the View menu > Skin to change how MC looks. Or you could always create your own skin if you're inclined to do so - there's topics on the wiki about skinning and there's a couple open-source skin examples you can base a new skin on, e.g. Modern Cards Light and Modern Cards Dark.
Logged
I don't work for JRiver... I help keep the forums safe from "male enhancements" and other sources of sketchy pharmaceuticals.

Windows 11 24H2 Update 64-bit + Ubuntu 24.10 Oracular Oriole 64-bit | Windows 11 24H2 Update 64-bit (Intel N305 Fanless NUC 16GB RAM/500GB M.2 NVMe SSD)
JRiver Media Center 33 (Windows + Linux) | iFi ZEN DAC 3 | JBL 306P MkII Studio Monitors | Audio-Technica ATH-M50x Headphones

rlebrette

  • Guest
Re: User Interface
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2017, 02:29:17 pm »

IMO, this is a TERRIBLE idea. Plugins/addons is what would open MC up to the same issues Kodi has with plugins/addons enabling streaming pirated content, plugins/addons enabling streaming services like Netflix and Amazon Prime Video which since JRiver is a US-based company, it *could* become a target allowing litigation for allowing such plugins/addons (or worse, litigation after the addon/plugin developer(s)). Just look at all the legal issues Kodi plugin/addon authors are going through.

Honestly if you want MC to be more like Kodi, then why not just use Kodi? Besides, how would JRiver Media Center, a paid and commercial media center application, compete with a FREE, open-source and cross-platform application like Kodi. How would it attract those free users? It just doesn't make sense to me. Or Plex for that matter. Or any of the other media player apps out there.

MC is in a niche of its own, which is perfect for its uses.
Paid software are always a niche when they have free competitors. But it's not a reason to not improve what can be improved. And usability and UI could be greatly improved. Streaming and external programs is another subject that's alreaďy addressed in a post from Jim.
As a regular programmer I pay for a dedicated integrated editor (Jetbrains IDEA) where thousands of people are using a free one (Eclipse). But IDEA is so usable and well designed that's more valuable. It's so true, that many devs are buying their own licences after they understand the pros.


Logged

Awesome Donkey

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 7889
  • Long cold Winter...
Re: User Interface
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2017, 02:33:02 pm »

Since this has been brought up and I've yet to see anyone mention anything specific that could be changed/added, I'll bring up a specific idea the dev team could add to help improve and "modernize" MC's user interface and skinning in general. How about adding SVG support for skin images? With SVGs you wouldn't have to worry about needing to create 1.5x, 2.0, etc. PNG images - SVGs can scale perfectly to any size without any issues like aliasing. Since SVGs are XML-based, they *could* be created in a text editor or an application like Inkscape.

With SVGs, it should be possible to modernize MC on ANY operating system to look anyway the user wants at any size and scale. The obvious problem would be needing to hire a graphic designer to create a brand new skin from scratch for this new idea. But this could allow merging Mini View, Standard View and Theater View skins into one skin (so it's uniform across all three views). SVGs could also be used in Panel too (and could scale to any size depending on screen resolution so it's uniform), since all modern web browsers support them.

But yeah, just a thought, don't mind me, carry on. :)
Logged
I don't work for JRiver... I help keep the forums safe from "male enhancements" and other sources of sketchy pharmaceuticals.

Windows 11 24H2 Update 64-bit + Ubuntu 24.10 Oracular Oriole 64-bit | Windows 11 24H2 Update 64-bit (Intel N305 Fanless NUC 16GB RAM/500GB M.2 NVMe SSD)
JRiver Media Center 33 (Windows + Linux) | iFi ZEN DAC 3 | JBL 306P MkII Studio Monitors | Audio-Technica ATH-M50x Headphones

jachin99

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 559
Re: User Interface
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2017, 02:34:25 pm »

It's as easy as going to the View menu > Skin to change how MC looks. Or you could always create your own skin if you're inclined to do so - there's topics on the wiki about skinning and there's a couple open-source skin examples you can base a new skin on, e.g. Modern Cards Light and Modern Cards Dark.

I was speaking more for theater view
Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 72538
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: User Interface
« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2017, 02:43:02 pm »

Because nobody of the development team saw this problem (it was already a problem years ago) it is clear to me that they need a designer. Someone that looks at the website and says:"It's horrible!". Someone that knows you can't ship a "Blue Steel" skin in 2017. It is not a good idea to have only technical people working on a product.
I tried to send you an e-mail, but your forum e-mail may go into the trash somewhere.

I also looked for a license and couldn't find one.  Please send me a private message with your details.
Logged

BillT

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
Re: User Interface
« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2017, 02:44:57 pm »

If I go to the websites of Kodi, Plex or Emby, they all look very beautiful. Jrivers website looks old, the screenshots are not up to date, etc.

Those websites look as if they were made with standard blogging software and have the common, boring look as well as having very poor usability. Probably good if you're of the iphone generation and love scrolling nearly blank pages for hours, but they're pretty poor at transmitting information. (In other words, IMO, they are not very well designed sites; on the other hand, if looks are the be all and end all they're great.)

For me a similar argument applies to the JRiver interface. I generally use the standard view; on a good monitor I can see lots of information at once. Looking at a database through a mobile phone spy hole isn't my idea of fun.
Logged

Headcool

  • Junior Woodchuck
  • **
  • Posts: 70
Re: User Interface
« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2017, 04:23:13 pm »

IMO, this is a TERRIBLE idea. Plugins/addons is what would open MC up to the same issues Kodi has with plugins/addons enabling streaming pirated content, plugins/addons enabling streaming services like Netflix and Amazon Prime Video which since JRiver is a US-based company, it *could* become a target allowing litigation for allowing such plugins/addons (or worse, litigation after the addon/plugin developer(s)). Just look at all the legal issues Kodi plugin/addon authors are going through.

There is absolutely no legal base for such claims. If Kodi would be liable for the addons someone could install, than Microsoft would be liable for the applications some could install on Windows. As long as JRiver would not advertise/promote/refer to such addons in any way, this would not be a problem at all.

Honestly if you want MC to be more like Kodi, then why not just use Kodi? Besides, how would JRiver Media Center, a paid and commercial media center application, compete with a FREE, open-source and cross-platform application like Kodi. How would it attract those free users? It just doesn't make sense to me. Or Plex for that matter. Or any of the other media player apps out there.

I use MC because it has something the other media centers out there are missing - a desktop view. Kodi, Plex and co might have amazing "theater views", but they are definitely missing something like MCs "standard view" which was build to be controlled by a mouse and not just a remote.
Regarding competition I would like to point out that Plex and Emby also are able to compete with Kodi including their paid premium services, which are much more expensive than MC, but are still getting customers. I think if MC had plugins and some interface corrections it would be better than Kodi, Plex and Emby in the most important aspects.

MC is in a niche of its own, which is perfect for its uses.
Digitial businesses tend to monopolize, since there is unlimited supply. Fifteen years ago, having a handful of developers was ok for an application like MC. Now it is really hard to compete with such a small team. In some years it will be impossible. The time to act is closing quickly.

Dear Headcool,
If you can't find a way to be constructive and leave personal remarks about the team aside, you will soon find yourself frequenting another forum.

That was not an insult. It is constructive criticism on the distribution of talent in your team. People with technical knowledge are fine, and I'm sure everyone in the team is doing a great job. But a developer writing some C++ code is most often not the right choice to do some kind of design. I also think you proofed this somehow by using the Modern Cards Skin, which was designed outside of JRiver. The outcome showed that it was a good choice and someone like the guy who created that skin would definitely enrich JRiver.

I tried to send you an e-mail, but your forum e-mail may go into the trash somewhere.

Well, I have multiple emails and I strictly seperate email addresses where I provide my identity (like a purchase) and those where I don't.

I also looked for a license and couldn't find one.  Please send me a private message with your details.

I am not going to connect my pseudonym with my real identity. I would like to proove that I own a valid MC license, however it don't know how I could achieve this without revealing my identity. Please respect my privacy.

Those websites look as if they were made with standard blogging software and have the common, boring look as well as having very poor usability. Probably good if you're of the iphone generation and love scrolling nearly blank pages for hours, but they're pretty poor at transmitting information. (In other words, IMO, they are not very well designed sites; on the other hand, if looks are the be all and end all they're great.)

This kind of websites are actually quite successful. However, I don't agree that these websites are "nearly blank".
I also don't see less information on these websites, than on the JRiver website. What I see is a nice presentation of the features of the product they are selling. Everything is where I would expect it to be found.

For me a similar argument applies to the JRiver interface. I generally use the standard view; on a good monitor I can see lots of information at once. Looking at a database through a mobile phone spy hole isn't my idea of fun.

I fully agree with that. I am a big fan of the standard view, especially for tagging it is very nice and convenient. I also prefer the cover view (which is basically the standard view in fullscreen) over the theater view. It is just more mouse friendly.
Logged

fitbrit

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 4889
Re: User Interface
« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2017, 06:05:53 pm »

Sorry for opening up this can of worms, Jim, but I think it's good for us to air what we think can make MC more popular.

I appreciate that you have survived for a long time, made money and assembled a great team with loyalty in both directions. It's easy for us to say that you could be making tons more money by doing xyz, or that you are missing opportunities. We may be right in some instances, but it's not us who have to invest in the projects to find out. That risk is yours and you can do as you wish. I am sure there are many businesses who failed by actually listening to their customers and giving them what they wanted. That happens when you can't monetize the effort, of course. It is prudent to not have to spend a dime unless it is necessary. Unfortunately, finding the balance and the wisdom to know what is/was necessary before it's too late is ridiculously difficult without the benefit of hindsight. Even if all the forum users who say they are willing to pay extra for a feature do so, will everyone else do so to cover your costs?

That said, it certainly does seem like there are many who want the focus to be more on aesthetics and ergonomics. These properties are assessed and implemented by professionals in those fields, rather than the users of this forum. We can tell the experience might be improved, but we are not the people who get paid to improve it. I also get that the users of this forum do not represent all your customers - not by a long shot. I do, however, have access to my customers in the audiophile community, not that it is a homogeneous entity. Most of them do not come to these forums. Many do complain about the interface, although admittedly many would complain about any non-psychic software.
I try to make things easier for my clients, and I constantly wow them with what I can do for them. And you know that most of the Beta Team are probably much more adept at doing things in MC than I am. I just communicate what I do know to my customers in a way they like. In some ways, I guess, the difficulty beginners have with MC is good for my business! The danger comes when competitors show up and make progress in leaps and bounds in getting closer to being an alternative to MC. Again, I am sure you have better data than we do about that and monitor it closely.
I do think that developing JRemote is a key to maintaining market share. It's one of the only things that sways some audiophiles to go the PC route, use JRiver and control with JRremote - as opposed to buying a media appliance that comes with an app for control. When people jump ship to those devices, you may not register that the sale is lost, because the customer went to a different platform altogether. In many cases, and we see this posted from time to time, MC is the only product that is keeping users on Windows. (I know MC is available on other platforms too, but the Windows one is still top dog I believe.)

All this to say that I think this thread is important for you to collect data points on what people want, but I do get that the position you are in makes steering the ship a task fraught with risk unless you have a crystal ball. Good luck!

Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 72538
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: User Interface
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2017, 12:08:29 am »

Headcool,
Please send me a private message with license details or email me.  I will protect your privacy.

I'm jimh at jriver.
Logged

TxinOK

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: User Interface
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2018, 02:46:35 pm »

My vote on this is for a UI & UX redesign.  I've been using MC for about a decade.  At the beginning the UI and UX seemed on par with other products, however, I've always thought Theater View's navigation could be improved.  in 2017 there have been significant advances in the understanding UX and how to achieve it.  I'm no expert, but I've encountered UX and UI experts who have created tremendous results for products by focusing on the user experience.  Of course the UX must be backed by a solid technical core - which you seem to have.  Why not invest in a great UX done by proven UX designers to land a much larger customer base and a foundation for the future which demands a great UX.

I think there are a few UX interfaces to deliver.
  • Theater View - Elegant, powerful and showy for the home theater/music room with improved navigation, AI and search (how about voice search?).
  • Architect & Builder View - For when you need/want to work on the details.
  • Remote Control - User your mobile device as a remote (could be a web app) with a couple of views - simple and detailed
  • Mobile App - JRemote with improved UX and machine learning.
  • Smart Speaker integration
.

Tapping into the major streaming services also seems to be a MUST.

Why not think big?  If JRiver had $5 million to do something, like capture the market by delivering a great UI/UX and also deliver all the major streaming content providers, who wouldn't want this product?  It would demand a higher price, which is fine because it would deliver value for that price.  It could be big.  Maybe the UI/App would be available on on TVs and streaming devices.  Go raise the money and hit it out of the park.  Now that would be quite the legacy for the founding and current team at JRiver.  The solid foundation has been built.  Now go build the skyscraper on top of it.

Logged

flac.rules

  • Regular Member
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1268
Re: User Interface
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2018, 02:54:34 am »

It's as easy as going to the View menu > Skin to change how MC looks. Or you could always create your own skin if you're inclined to do so - there's topics on the wiki about skinning and there's a couple open-source skin examples you can base a new skin on, e.g. Modern Cards Light and Modern Cards Dark.

So how do i easily make MC look like this for instance:

http://xbmc-skins.com/skin/aeon-nox

It is not easy. MC has a lot of good sides, the UI on the theatreview/remote side is not one of them. This has been discussed many times before. And while it is the developers that has the last say, I find it quite non-constructive to say "people haven't shown us what to improve". First of all, there has been a lot of suggestions, second, you can't expect many people to be in total agreement, and in my opinion it is like saying "bugs can't be a problem, people haven't told us how to fix it". Not a priority from the team? Fine, while I think that is not the best way to go, that is an ok message to get. The team feels that it actually looks better than the competition, also fine (although i disagree), but the "show us how to do it" is not a good way to handle it (especially since it doesn't seem like that is what is wanted anyway, I can say "i want theatre view to have a skin like the one i linked to", but i doubt it will happen).

So to summarize. I think MC is a great program, but UI in the "easier" views (remote, theatre and so on), is one of its primary "flaws". To be hones I think the skinning engine might be to limited, but I don't know.
Logged

MikeO

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 798
Re: User Interface
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2018, 08:23:55 am »

I use MC for audio only, I never use std view to run music simply to manage my library and tags etc I am on Year 6 I think.

Like many others I use JRemote exclusively.

I hate to say it but again like many others I have been lured by Roon. I am lucky that I don’t put cash first.

While Roon has its pros it also has its cons as does MC. Currently I am running both. For classical MC wins , rock Roon does. To me it’s all about ease of navigation. How do I easily get to what I want to listen and enjoy it. To me info and lyrics weight in te choice

The ability to customize views , on JRemote, wins hands down compared with Roon’s more fixed view.

Roon’s  more sexy UI UX is very tempting

I can’t be alone in this view. Hi fi has never been a cheap hobby, let’s face it $120 a year is a cup of coffee a day 

Maybe people will put up with Roon’s rigidity to get the advantage of its UX

Admittedly the two apps do slightly different things, hence the jury is still out

My 2 penneth
Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 72538
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: User Interface
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2018, 09:12:33 am »

Logged

MikeO

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 798
Re: User Interface
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2018, 12:38:48 am »

Another contentious thought! How about persuading the EOS guy to cross platform to iOS ?
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up