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Author Topic: The Future of Windows  (Read 11870 times)

JimH

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The Future of Windows
« on: December 29, 2017, 02:43:34 am »

I said something in another thread that, on reflection, might be a good topic for discussion.

I said that I was starting to be concerned about Microsoft's commitment to Windows and that there have been too many odd problems with it recently.  I meant that Windows updates were becoming unreliable, sometimes causing new problems.

I'm interested to hear your opinions about where things are going with OS's in general, and Windows in particular.

Here's an article about what may be in store for Windows:
https://www.windowscentral.com/windows-core-os

Thanks,

Jim
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JimH

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2017, 02:46:13 am »

This quote from the article was striking:

"Right now, if an OEM wants to make a device running Windows, it has to choose from a number of pre-defined variants of Windows 10 that Microsoft has already built. That includes things like Windows 10 Home, Windows 10 Pro, Windows 10 S, Windows 10 Mobile, Windows Server, Windows 10 IoT, and many more. This can sometimes be a very limiting factor for OEMs."

Too many choices.
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jmone

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2017, 03:40:27 am »

You missed one.... I'm running "Windows 10 Pro for Workstations" ... they made a new SKU which (of course) costs more but I wanted ReFS support that they "deprecated" from Windows 10 Pro.

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Hendrik

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2017, 03:52:17 am »

"Right now, if an OEM wants to make a device running Windows, it has to choose from a number of pre-defined variants of Windows 10 that Microsoft has already built. That includes things like Windows 10 Home, Windows 10 Pro, Windows 10 S, Windows 10 Mobile, Windows Server, Windows 10 IoT, and many more. This can sometimes be a very limiting factor for OEMs."

Too many choices.

Honestly, if thats a problem for an OEM, then they don't deserve their business. There really isn't that many valid choices. Many of those are extremely specialized, like Server, IoT and Mobile. You aren't going to put those onto any normal desktop or laptop system, they all serve special purposes. Typically the decision just comes down to Home or Pro, or perhaps "S" for the absolute low-end - not any more editions then we've had in the past. Similarily, "Pro for Workstations" isn't likely to be sold outside of system builders or enterprise customers, not really a OEM choice.

And re: "too many choices", the article actually talks about how those aren't enough choices, and the "Windows Core OS" concept would let OEMs pick individual features and components, instead of using a pre-defined editions.
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jmone

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2017, 03:56:32 am »

On a more serious note, I think MC is covered for some time with the platforms you support:

Desktop OS : Windows 89%, OSX 8%, Linux 2%
Mobile OS : Android 69%, IOS 29%

Desktop vs Mobile (by Device) : 55% Desktop, 45% Mobile/Tablet

The only thing I would suggest is the continued dev on the Mobile market as a player rather than just a "remote" given it is now 45% of devices worldwide.  Like with the Windows article you quoted, a "Core" MC that can be deployed on Windows / OSX / Linux / Android / IOS makes sense.
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JimH

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2017, 03:57:59 am »

Typically the decision just comes down to Home or Pro, or perhaps "S" for the absolute low-end ...
Or Windows Server 2012 if you believe what you read on some audiophile forums.  Which I don't.
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JimH

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2017, 04:00:49 am »

The only thing I would suggest is the continued dev on the Mobile market as a player rather than just a "remote" given it is now 45% of devices worldwide.  Like with the Windows article you quoted, a "Core" MC that can be deployed on Windows / OSX / Linux / Android / IOS makes sense.
I agree.  Android has momentum on its side.
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jmone

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2017, 04:01:41 am »

FYI : "Windows 10 Pro for Workstations" is an "upgrade" option in the Windows Store and it just unlocks some features like ReFS, Persistent Memory, SMB Direct, and support for up to 4 CPUs and 6TB of RAM.  When I did the "upgrade" nothing was downloaded, just features enabled.  Reminds me of the old IBM Golden Screwdriver approach. 
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ferday

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2017, 04:04:57 am »

i think anyone who believes that OS X or Linux are somehow superior, are deluding themselves or haven't spent enough time with the variants.  They all have their minor and major problems

as per what jmone mentioned, desktop as a whole is dying fast outside of the business segment.  i for one will hold on to my big desktops until the end, and other than a smaller Linux unit for playing around with i'll probably be on windows until then as well
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jmone

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2017, 04:10:57 am »

I agree.  Android has momentum on its side.
I'd say: 
* Desktop is owned by Windows.
* Mobile is 2/3rd Andriod and 1/3rd iOS

The big change has been the change in market share between Desktop and Mobile.... or I should say the addition of Mobile TO Desktop. 

I look at how my Kids eat media.  Apart from HTPC for "Movie Night" it is primary their Mobile Phones.  The other trend that really bit this year is the "smart speaker".  In particular the number of Google Home Mini's that were sold over Christmas was spectacular, no doubt helped by how cheap they are.  You really should look at how to integrate with these (good thing you now have a few to play with).
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jmone

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2017, 04:15:30 am »

I don't think the "Desktop" is dead more the evolution of new forms.  Less full sized "Desktops", more Laptops and to a lesser extent SFF / NUC / Sticks.  There will be (for some time yet) a need for big screens, keyboards, and mouse to do "stuff" that a phone can not.
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jmone

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2017, 04:24:26 am »

We are also seeing the rise of embedded systems for media consumption in TVs, STB that I see will rival the role of the HTPC.  Why have a HTPC and all the hassle it involves when the TV has Netflix, YouTube, Spotify etc built in?  Most users don't care that the quality is crap VS a HTPC.... It just works.

I was having a conversation about UHD BD using a HTPC (MC) or HW Player vs Netflix 4K on the TV.  It was utterly lost on the other party that the UHD rips are some 10x+ the bitrate.  They just don't care.  Netflix is "4K!" and easy.  MC (and HTPC) will continue to be an enthusiasts market. 
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Hendrik

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2017, 05:14:12 am »

We are also seeing the rise of embedded systems for media consumption in TVs, STB that I see will rival the role of the HTPC.  Why have a HTPC and all the hassle it involves when the TV has Netflix, YouTube, Spotify etc built in?  Most users don't care that the quality is crap VS a HTPC.... It just works.

"will rival"? Where have you been the last two years? Users that don't care about quality have been using either the features built-into their TVs for quite a while now, or something like a FireTV or NVIDIA Shield (or even the absolutely terrible Roku). HTPC has never been a mainstream solution, since its not an "out of the box" experience.
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RoderickGI

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2017, 06:54:56 am »

Personally I think Microsoft is abandoning all consumer products, except perhaps the XBox.

Microsoft is pursuing the corporate market, just as IBM did. We will see special arrangements for the maintenance of older version of Windows for corporate clients, at a price, into the future. The Enterprise version of Windows will lose consumer types of functionality and will receive all the attention to ensure that it is stable and reliable. But it will only support a core set of functionality that is required for business, not home use. At the same time consumer versions of Windows, already suffering from the loss of Quality Assurance capabilities at Microsoft, will become less and less reliable. Updates will be pumped out, and force onto consumers, with a "suck it see" approach. Consumers are the new Beta testers, if not Alpha testers.

Like IBM and Kodak before it, Microsoft is on the way out, and it will take Windows with it. It's just a matter of time. It happened very quickly for Kodak, and pretty quickly for IBM. Of course, IBM is still very successful, but when did you last hear IBM mentioned in a consumer sphere? Not in a long time.

I think the current CEO of Microsoft is going to kill it, in an attempt to turn around a falling profile and profitability, while actually having his eye on his own remuneration. I would call him an idiot, but he is like so many modern CEOs, looking only to feather their own nest, with little care for the company, employees, or customers. Except for a select few.

I do think Windows will limp along for some time, but honestly for the niche market of enthusiast HTPC user, with large storage requirement and server like functionality, linux is the future. But it will be a shrinking market, and yes, devices will take over, maybe even Android devices, and some of them will be good, but almost all will be a compromise.
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MGD_King

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2017, 10:05:14 am »

... Microsoft is on the way out, and it will take Windows with it.

I totally disagree with this statement. Microsoft doesn't make much money from Windows, that part is true; it's Office product is the cash cow, as well as other enterprise applications and operating systems (read: Windows Server). There are way too many businesses that have invested millions of dollars in their existing infrastructure and rely on Microsoft, including Windows, that they can't change to a different architecture. Microsoft won't ignore that market, it's what makes the stock holders happy, not the consumer market.
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JimH

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2017, 12:35:21 pm »

I think the current CEO of Microsoft is going to kill it, in an attempt to turn around a falling profile and profitability, while actually having his eye on his own remuneration. I would call him an idiot, but he is like so many modern CEOs, looking only to feather their own nest, with little care for the company, employees, or customers.
He's coming up on 4 years and though I agree with a lot of what you said, I do think he's doing a generally good job.  At least he's not Ballmer.

His background was with "the cloud" and he was reportedly successful with it.   I think MC must be doing pretty well with offering corporations "cloud services".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satya_Nadella

The stock has gone from 40 to 85 during his tenure.  I think he'll be around for a while.

https://finance.google.com/finance?q=msft&ei=A4tGWujIFMWCUbzCmogC
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jmone

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2017, 02:43:30 pm »

"will rival"? Where have you been the last two years?
Trying to get my HTPC working as reliably as a CE Device on my "Dumb" TVs! 

Quote
Users that don't care about quality have been using either the features built-into their TVs for quite a while now, or something like a FireTV or NVIDIA Shield (or even the absolutely terrible Roku). HTPC has never been a mainstream solution, since its not an "out of the box" experience.

Your right.  I've not seen the stats on unit sales of external "boxes" but I would not be surprised if these were being cannibalised by TV / Speakers etc that have clients packaged in them.  I got a "Free" Roku with my cable subscription (for some reason the Cable supplier felt we would also want an "IP" device as well).  The quality is pretty bad.  What was worse is that some content was "exclusive" to their IP channel forcing you to use it.  Bizarre. 
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fitbrit

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2017, 10:35:28 pm »

What has me concerned is the MS stance of "we know what's best for your computer", that all but forces updates on you, even when the new drivers an update installs actually breaks functionality. In the HTPC world, Nvidia, AMD/ATi and Intel have all been guilty of releasing video drivers that break one function o the niche HTPC users had begged hard for in a previous release. Too many times the solution to a problem (that was not there before) has been to ) has been to roll back drivers rather than to update them.
I can only send out my company's product to customers once we have used Group Policy edit to prevent certain devices from updating their drivers. And even that usually only works for standard updates - not the mandatory Creators' updates that cause major headaches twice a year.

In another thread, Jim asked about future directions. I think JRiver should create their own OS for a more appliance-like MC experience!
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DarkPenguin

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2017, 10:50:04 pm »

Bobuntu!
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fitbrit

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2017, 11:39:40 pm »

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jmone

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2017, 11:53:57 pm »

don't forget Hendroid and Yaobux 
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fitbrit

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2017, 12:54:18 am »

MattOS X
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JimH

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2017, 01:11:00 am »

JimiHendrix
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fitbrit

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2017, 01:23:58 am »

JimiHendrix

 ;D That has all the perfect elements of an OS name. Including a small "i" between Jim and Hendrix. Bravo
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JimH

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2017, 02:08:07 am »

;D That has all the perfect elements of an OS name. Including a small "i" between Jim and Hendrix. Bravo
And JRiver would get sued and get a lot of free publicity.

Maybe we could do HimiJendrix.
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Manfred

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2017, 04:05:21 am »

MC tv :)
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DJLegba

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2017, 09:30:50 am »

And JRiver would get sued and get a lot of free publicity.

Maybe we could do HimiJendrix.

You could make a case for Jim-y-Hendrick's
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JimH

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2017, 11:21:13 am »

You could make a case for Jim-y-Hendrick's
;D
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Listener

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2017, 03:04:45 pm »

Thanks, Jim for starting this thread.

I think Microsoft's core problem is that they are no longer competent in executing their strategy. 

- They no longer understand what their massive user base wants. (Mostly, they want Windows to work reliably and give them no grief.  New features like VR support don't matter to everyone.)  For many users, the massive updates are not wanted and dreaded for the trouble they cause.

- They are failing to adequately test their releases before pushing them on users.  Other companies are doing forced updates without causing their users trouble.

- They are not considering a big chunk of the user base in developing features and designing the big updates.  A Win 10 laptop with an I5 processor and a 1 TB hard drive took more than 24 hours to check for, download and install a big update.  During that time the laptop was unusable with CPU and disk I/O pegged at 100%.  I gave up and replaced the 1TB drive with a 1 TB SSD.  I wonder how much worse the update process is for a laptop with a low end CPU  and a slow hard drive.

- Microsoft has stated pretty clearly that they want to move to selling Windows as a service with continuing charges for use.  Why would users want to pay Microsoft for Windows as a service after seeing how much grief they are causing now?  After a few more rounds of updates, I'd prefer to pay Microsoft not to do feature updates but provide bug fixes and security updates.  This would like an anti-virus subscription service.

Neither Apple Mac nor Linux meets my needs at present so I'm staying with Microsoft for now.  However, I may have to change in the future.

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Awesome Donkey

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2017, 03:22:17 pm »

Well, Microsoft did lay off their entire internal QA testing team and created the "Insider" program so people could be their 'free' testers. Don't think that's really turned out well, considering how each Windows 10 update has been buggy (Fall Creators Update being the most buggy one I've used thus far).

And don't get me started on the countless privacy issues Windows 10 has with its telemetry and how incredibly difficult it is to disable it.
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JimH

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2018, 09:22:56 am »

It's official now.  Windows de-emphasized, future focus on Cloud and AI.

Satya Nadella's email to employees:
https://news.microsoft.com/2018/03/29/satya-nadella-email-to-employees-embracing-our-future-intelligent-cloud-and-intelligent-edge/

Maybe JRiver should offer an OS.
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tij

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2018, 10:15:27 am »

For desktop to be dead (and Windows with it)  there must be suitable replacement ... and frankly what we have now doesn’t ... you still need keyboard and mouse to do lots of stuff as other mentioned it.

Kodak is dead cause did not emrace digital ... IBM abandon consumers cause there were too many cheap alternatives that can do exactly same thing.

MS grooms us at very early age to get used to Windows (I will still assume that school and colleges do their homework on MS Office) so that when we enter workforce we expect same environment at work.

Windows was buggy ... nothing new here ... remember Windows ME ... and I don’t think it’s sign that it is dead

Sure ppl are using laptops more as they are relatively cheaper and more powerful than before ... that doesn’t mean Windows is dead ... ppl still want to use their laptops for entertainment

HTPC was never mainstream as mentioned by other. Very few care about quality over convenience as long as it is “g ood enough”. So making JRiver available on mobile won’t increase user base that much as you still need to own media on some dedicated hardware (it will make your current users more happy though ... including myself)

I would love JRiver to be able to sync to mobile over WiFi (select song, select quality ... then MC transcode and FTP it to mobile client to be played by that client ... don’t care about native player) ... only reason I still keep Plex around

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RD James

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2018, 11:30:39 am »

I think they're headed in the right direction by unifying everything 'under the hood' and working to isolate/sandbox Win32 applications.
They are falling into the trap of offering far too many different versions of Windows again though.
It's good that they are killing off Windows 10S and making it "S Mode" that can be activated on any edition of Windows, but I don't like that they split up Pro into two SKUs with the "Pro for Workstations" edition.
 
I can't say that I've had any issues with updates, but I don't have any Home editions of Windows 10, and my understanding is that it gives you very few options to manage them.
That is a good thing overall, since people are terrible about updating if given the choice, as they don't properly understand the risks of not updating until it's too late.
Microsoft need to be better about not forcing systems to restart while people are doing work or have left something processing overnight. If that happens even once, those people start trying to do whatever they can to permanently disable updates altogether.

I really like the idea of Windows 10 S Mode. From what I've seen, it's an edition of Windows that I would actually be comfortable letting family members use.
Until now, I've told them all that they need to buy Macs and iOS devices if they expect to get any support from me because I don't want to be dealing with someone else's Windows or Android devices.
That said, I'd probably still recommend Apple devices from a hardware point of view - they're generally very reliable and parts are widely available (if expensive) for many years. You could maybe still get Thinkpad parts for a decade-old system like you can with Apple hardware, but I wouldn't expect that for anything else like a cheap Acer device etc.
 
I don't know if it would be possible, but I would suggest looking into offering a version of Media Center and/or a remote on the Microsoft Store. Something like Panel as a PWA could be interesting.

For desktop to be dead (and Windows with it)  there must be suitable replacement ... and frankly what we have now doesn’t ... you still need keyboard and mouse to do lots of stuff as other mentioned it.
It's dead for home users outside of gamers and other enthusiasts/hobbyists.
Everyone users their phone now, and maybe a tablet, but tablets are dying too.
 
FYI : "Windows 10 Pro for Workstations" is an "upgrade" option in the Windows Store and it just unlocks some features like ReFS, Persistent Memory, SMB Direct, and support for up to 4 CPUs and 6TB of RAM.  When I did the "upgrade" nothing was downloaded, just features enabled.  Reminds me of the old IBM Golden Screwdriver approach.
It's also an OEM license for one machine. It does not give you a license tied to your account that you can use for all of your machines, like everything else sold in the store.

We are also seeing the rise of embedded systems for media consumption in TVs, STB that I see will rival the role of the HTPC.  Why have a HTPC and all the hassle it involves when the TV has Netflix, YouTube, Spotify etc built in?  Most users don't care that the quality is crap VS a HTPC.... It just works.

I was having a conversation about UHD BD using a HTPC (MC) or HW Player vs Netflix 4K on the TV.  It was utterly lost on the other party that the UHD rips are some 10x+ the bitrate.  They just don't care.  Netflix is "4K!" and easy.  MC (and HTPC) will continue to be an enthusiasts market.
This is why I think it's important for Media Center to become more focused on search and making it easy to launch media rather than file browsing, and why mobile apps/streaming are more important than ever.
It's not comparable to a UHD disc, but 4K streaming keeps getting better. I hear very good things about Apple's 4K HDR offerings even from people that would typically buy discs.
I know a lot of people with huge Blu-ray libraries that don't own or plan to buy a UHD player.
Everyone I know streams music instead of buying it now, and wouldn't even think of having a music library to manage. They're all very content that they don't have to deal with iTunes/Winamp any more.
And don't get me started on the countless privacy issues Windows 10 has with its telemetry and how incredibly difficult it is to disable it.
Trying to disable it is often the source of many problems, and 1803 has to be GDPR compliant, which should in theory mean that you won't have to be concerned as long as the telemetry is on 'basic'. Their use of telemetry/cloud data is how Windows Defender has improved so drastically since Windows 10 launched.


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wilfredjg

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2018, 11:48:18 am »

I think, like Chromebooks, Windows is going to move to the Clouds. Here is a good article https://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft-announces-major-changes-in-leadership-terry-myerson-is-stepping-down
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B4Unyu

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2018, 05:20:22 pm »

About disabling telemetry, privacy, etc. settings...

O&O Software has a free utility O&O ShutUp10 that works. small. no installation.. effective.

https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10
~EDIT~
...interesting just to see the list of hundred or so items. no need to change anything.
there's one called, "disable conducting experiments with this machine by MS", a setting to disable MS from changing system settings remotely.

i'm not here making a recommendation one way or the other about the use of this software...
just putting it out here FYI.

this also can be used if only to verify that a windows' update reverted settings you've already made ...manually or not.

also...
Windows flavors can be changed by changing to the specific product key, (don't know if it is this way now after major updates). I changed from Pro to Enterprise and back without issues. got the instructions (and product key) off one of their sites.
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Awesome Donkey

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2018, 05:25:56 pm »

Effective or not, in my own experience tweaking Windows 10 like that is a recipe for disaster. There's only one thing I disable in Windows 10 using a tweak (in this case a registry edit of the setting to auto download/install recommended apps, e.g. games like Candy Crush, which I do NOT want installed on my box without my permission). Windows 10 is so easy to break due to how everything is so integrated deep within the system now, like Cortana and Edge. Definitely don't recommend using Powershell to mass remove Windows apps.

Otherwise, I change my diagnostic data setting from Full to Basic and turn off suggestions in the start menu, "get fun facts" on the lock screen, etc. Anything that can be found in Windows' Settings and in the privacy section(s).
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RD James

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2018, 05:40:48 pm »

About disabling telemetry, privacy, etc. settings...
O&O Software has a free utility O&O ShutUp10 that works. small. no installation.. effective.

https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10
Just don't expect all components of Windows to continue functioning normally when you use a tool like this, even after you "undo" the changes.

Effective or not, in my own experience tweaking Windows 10 like that is a recipe for disaster. There's only one thing I disable in Windows 10 using a tweak (in this case a registry edit of the setting to auto download/install recommended apps, e.g. games like Candy Crush, which I do NOT want installed on my box without my permission). Windows 10 is so easy to break due to how everything is so integrated deep within the system now, like Cortana and Edge. Definitely don't recommend using Powershell to mass remove Windows apps.
The problem is that people are stupid about it.
Instead of simply disabling Cortana via Group Policy / Registry, they have to try and forcibly remove every single mention of Cortana from the system and then complain about search being broken.
"Cortana" is both Windows Search and the Online Assistant. Most people still want to be able to search their system.
 
It's the same thing with the Microsoft Store. They use a tool like this and complain about the store being broken if they eventually do want to get an app from it.
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astropuppy

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2018, 11:29:08 am »

I think jriver should continue on the ID track of single purpose low cost solutions.

I've been using JRiver since my squeeze box was no longer supported. Started with windows 7; but, by far my favorite, most stable install has been on debian. A roll my own ID (music) box per-se. It just works, updates not required.

For video, I have another dedicated PC running Debian and a JRiver competitors video server software. Its been running for +6 months w/o any downtime or reboots.

Cheap single use boxes is where I see the future. IOT!

This message has been typed on a chromebook used primarily for internet browsing.... I'm down to one windows 10 box used primarily for music tagging/ripping and Quicken. Family data is stored on a NAS.
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RD James

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2018, 12:52:20 pm »

my favorite, most stable install has been on debian. A roll my own ID (music) box per-se. It just works, updates not required.
This is how botnets happen. Internet-connected Linux devices that people believe don't need updating.
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astropuppy

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2018, 02:42:55 pm »

This is how botnets happen. Internet-connected Linux devices that people believe don't need updating.

botnets? its turned off most the time and I never said its never updated. Thanks for the concern.
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magnust

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2018, 02:44:39 pm »

If you look at the gaming community (which is truly humongous!!!!) Linux still after all these years haven't really gotten anywhere. It's more or less all windows (and a decent bit of consoles of course). It isn't looking like Windows is losing it's grip over gaming anywhere soon. And the gaming community is picky about things working okay. Like us.  ;D

PS:
I host a number of linux servers, great stuff!
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audioriver

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2018, 06:33:47 pm »

The article in the first post certainly feels like the herald of Windows' death. The new, post Win7 'Metro' Microsoft  seems hell-bent on the lowest common denominator: mobile devices with a Store. I understand it's about the money, but people who refuse to admit their own mistakes and listen to reason while rigidly continue on the same track, are usually the ones that cause the more destruction. In this case, the victim will be the Windows Desktop and make no mistake, competent alternatives will be there for us.

I didn't start my computing life with Microsoft and have no plans to end it with them either!

O&O Software has a free utility O&O ShutUp10 that works. small. no installation.. effective.

Effective or not, in my own experience tweaking Windows 10 like that is a recipe for disaster.

Just don't expect all components of Windows to continue functioning normally when you use a tool like this, even after you "undo" the changes.

There are a lot of similar tools out there -and some can indeed cause problems- but the aforementioned O&O ShutUp10 is probably the safest, and one of the "conservative" ones. Windows will keep working normally, nothing is "deleted" and no 'disasters' will occur. Windows' in-built methods are used to disable features and telemetry. If you disable OneDrive for example, you obviously cannot expect it to work afterwards. It can be re-enabled and it will work - same with the rest of the options.
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tij

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2018, 08:55:06 pm »

I didn't start my computing life with Microsoft and have no plans to end it with them either!
Sadly for me frame-packed 3D is only supported on Windows ... also it seems devices support Windows drivers first ... then Linux drivers (if any) ... also not sure if MadVR is available on other OS since its a DirectShow filter (aka Microsoft filter)

OSX? ... not gonna use it while it still locks me on Apple assembled hardware ... I have MacBook Air ... this is my first OSX device (bought cause it look cool and heard so many praises about OSX) ... and it slows down and hangs as often as Windows (which is sad ... considering OSX limits your system settings and is run on hardware designed for it)

PS. Before iPhone ... I generally put PC use at home into 3 category ... work (MS Office), games, internet ... IMHO after iPhone was introduce, mobile devices probably only snatch internet PCs

those who use PC for work, continue to do so ... serious gamers still game on PC (mobile games probably took a bite of consoles though)
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RD James

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #43 on: March 31, 2018, 10:37:37 pm »

Windows' in-built methods are used to disable features and telemetry.
And even doing that can break things if you set options which are not applicable to your installed version of Windows - such as setting telemetry to 'disabled' rather than 'basic' on a non-Enterprise version.
If I recall correctly, there was an issue recently where Windows 10 Pro systems were being upgraded to 1709 automatically, even though they had been configured to defer feature updates for 365 days (the maximum) as a result of telemetry being set to 'disabled'.
People running into that problem had no clue that it was caused by the telemetry setting being misconfigured, especially not since it was likely set months if not years ago.
 
If you disable "Microsoft SpyNet" as O&O ShutUp10 calls it (it's now MAPS) - which sounds very scary if you are paranoid about the OS spying on you - then you lose access to all cloud-provided data in Defender and put your system at risk.
Same thing with sample submission, and I think SmartScreen is also required. The Group Policy Editor goes into detail about all of this.
 
It doesn't affect O&O ShutUp10, but I was just reading how forcibly removing the 'Microsoft.Xbox.TCUI' app can actually break several system components, such as the Microsoft Store, Windows Hello, and even the Photos app. Apparently it's due to some shared .NET libraries.
 
My point is that many people think they know what they are doing, but these tools and scripts are a bad idea.
They don't properly explain the consequences of what these changes are doing, or what settings are appropriate for your system.
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Manfred

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2018, 04:19:17 am »

- Most DAC'S USB ASIO Drivers are only available for Windows.
- Red October HQ (madVR runs only on Windows?)
- With Remote Desktop on Windows one can easily manage from one PC the others.
- Linux is from my experience more complex regrading administration.
...

My new win based server run's now 4 month's with no issues 7x24 with one automatic reboot after the monthly win upgrade.

That's why I feel many people would prefer windows.
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mattkhan

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #45 on: April 01, 2018, 04:49:48 am »

- Linux is from my experience more complex regrading administration.
probably because it actually lets you administer it instead of being a blackbox that does what it wants when it wants and tells you v little about what is going on :)
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RD James

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #46 on: April 01, 2018, 01:06:06 pm »

probably because it actually lets you administer it instead of being a blackbox that does what it wants when it wants and tells you v little about what is going on :)
1. You cannot defer security updates longer than 30 days.
2. You cannot defer feature updates longer than 365 days.

Other than those two rules you basically have complete control over the system with a Pro license.
You can attempt to delay updates longer than this, but that’s where you run into problems, since Windows 10 attempts to self-repair if you go beyond those limits.
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mwillems

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #47 on: April 01, 2018, 01:36:06 pm »

1. You cannot defer security updates longer than 30 days.
2. You cannot defer feature updates longer than 365 days.

Other than those two rules you basically have complete control over the system with a Pro license.
You can attempt to delay updates longer than this, but that’s where you run into problems, since Windows 10 attempts to self-repair if you go beyond those limits.

What about the undisableable telemetry and other constant "behind the scenes" activity?  Even using the various tools to disable it, I can still see it phoning home and transmitting data constantly.  What is it sending?  Who knows? 

Can you disable windows defender entirely? I haven't figured out how yet even with a Pro license. 

How about all the group policy options that exist in Pro but have been disabled on the backend so they can be toggled, but don't actually work?

I think it's a little disingenuous to suggest that one has complete control over a Windows 10 system, even with the premium personal licenses like Pro.  Enterprise licenses have more granular control, but that's out of reach for most home users.  It's debatable whether that lack of control is desirable or undesirable from an end user perspective, but it's hard to suggest that a modern Windows system allows for the same administrative freedom as a Linux system (or even previous versions of Windows)
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RD James

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #48 on: April 01, 2018, 01:57:49 pm »

What about the undisableable telemetry and other constant "behind the scenes" activity?  Even using the various tools to disable it, I can still see it phoning home and transmitting data constantly.  What is it sending?  Who knows?
Well the question is whether or not you trust Microsoft. If you don't, I would not be running their OS.
So long as you keep it set to 'basic' there should be no personally-identifiable information. 1803 is supposed to be compliant with the GDPR, and allows you to view this data.
 
Can you disable windows defender entirely? I haven't figured out how yet even with a Pro license. 
Computer Configuration > Administrative Templates > Windows Components > Windows Defender Antivirus > Turn off Windows Defender Antivirus
I certainly don't recommend it though.
 
How about all the group policy options that exist in Pro but have been disabled on the backend so they can be toggled, but don't actually work?
Could you be more specific? A lot of people change these options via the registry because they read about them on some website, rather than using the Group Policy Editor.
The Group Policy Editor is usually very clear about which editions of Windows a setting applies to.

I think it's a little disingenuous to suggest that one has complete control over a Windows 10 system, even with the premium personal licenses like Pro.  Enterprise licenses have more granular control, but that's out of reach for most home users.  It's debatable whether that lack of control is desirable or undesirable from an end user perspective, but it's hard to suggest that a modern Windows system allows for the same administrative freedom as a Linux system.
There may be a handful of things which are outside of your control, but it is disingenuous to say that you have no administrative control over the OS.
Should an "administrator" have the option to delete "C:\Windows\" ? If they are truly the admin they should be able to do what they want, but I doubt many people consider it a problem if they cannot do this.
 
When you consider what the majority of complaints about Windows 10 are - especially from people with Home licenses - I'm not sure that Microsoft was wrong to restrict most of the options that they did.
Telemetry is the one thing where I'm not sure that I agree with it being forced to the 'basic' level if you have anything less than an enterprise license. At the same time there are clear improvements being made to the OS as a result of that data, and I have seen what can happen to a project when power users opt out of telemetry, yet the company is making its decisions based on that data (Firefox).
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mwillems

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Re: The Future of Windows
« Reply #49 on: April 01, 2018, 02:36:01 pm »

Well the question is whether or not you trust Microsoft. If you don't, I would not be running their OS.
So long as you keep it set to 'basic' there should be no personally-identifiable information. 1803 is supposed to be compliant with the GDPR, and allows you to view this data.

I wasn't necessarily advancing a position in my prior post, good or bad, just noting telemetry is one of many items out of the users' control.

Quote
Computer Configuration > Administrative Templates > Windows Components > Windows Defender Antivirus > Turn off Windows Defender Antivirus
I certainly don't recommend it though.

It turns itself back on after a few days if you do that.  Again, setting aside whether one should, it's something you can't do (or I haven't been able to find a permanent solution).

Quote
Could you be more specific? A lot of people change these options via the registry because they read about them on some website, rather than using the Group Policy Editor.
The Group Policy Editor is usually very clear about which editions of Windows a setting applies to.

They're better labelled than they were when the change happened a year ago, so you're correct that they now say which version they apply to (thanks for updating my understanding).  But those labels make it obvious that there are quite a few things you can't do with group policy with a Pro license (like disable the windows store or Cortana entirely).  Better than the previous state where you'd disable Cortana in group policy, but Cortana would cheerfully continue to run..

Quote
There may be a handful of things which are outside of your control, but it is disingenuous to say that you have no administrative control over the OS.
Should an "administrator" have the option to delete "C:\Windows\" ? If they are truly the admin they should be able to do what they want, but I doubt many people consider it a problem if they cannot do this.

I was setting aside the question of whether the lack of control was good or bad; I was just reacting to your "only two things out of your control" formulation which I thought was a bit pat (if you follow me).

Quote
When you consider what the majority of complaints about Windows 10 are - especially from people with Home licenses - I'm not sure that Microsoft was wrong to restrict most of the options that they did.
Telemetry is the one thing where I'm not sure that I agree with it being forced to the 'basic' level if you have anything less than an enterprise license. At the same time there are clear improvements being made to the OS as a result of that data, and I have seen what can happen to a project when power users opt out of telemetry, yet the company is making its decisions based on that data (Firefox).

We can agree to disagree there (I think firefox is doing well from an engineering perspective these days). I personally think anything more than opt-in (not opt-out) telemetry is an abusive practice, unless it's a one-time deal during installation or something.  If Microsoft is taking steps to make what they're sending user auditable that's astep in the right direction, but still less than ideal.
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