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Well above average

A little better than average

Similar

A little worse

A lot worse (please explain why)

[JimH]

Thanks for letting us know.  Feel free to add specifics if you feel so inclined.

[mattkhan]

I find it difficult to pick one option as I think the absence of an issue/defect tracker makes for a significantly poorer user experience & the state of the wiki doesn't help. This relates to the forum because it makes the forum the de facto source of information for many feature (particularly when multiple features interact). This invariably means trawling through old threads to find out the current state (if you can work it out at all).

I suppose my point is that the support is good on a day to day basis but the setup is IMV fundamentally, but not fatally, flawed (and this is to the detriment of the overall quality of support provided).

[DocLotus]

For me... A little better then average.

I have to completely agree with Mattkhan on all points.

• A problem tracker would be of great help.
• The WiKi is old & out of date.
• Support is good on a day-to-day basis on the Forum.
• But, I often get no resolve to my problems even after some very long threads so I often just give up trying thinking I'll revisit the subject later only to get some comment like "why do you keep bringing this subject up? So I finally give up. I have one outstanding problem like that I have long ago given up on.

[mattlovell]

Compared to other forums (the question being asked), I think JRiver's runs better to much better.

It would certainly be easier in some ways to search for issues and resolutions with an issue tracker.  Googling the interact forum can yield good results, but one must always examine what MC version (and what year) the located thread is discussing!

[DarkPenguin]

In the ballpark of the Adobe forums for customer to customer. As far as support from actual staff I'd say better than those even.

[JimH]

I just wrote a response to the suggestions that we use an issue tracking system.

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,114336.msg790562.html#msg790562

[john_kane]

I think a response like that IS a fundamental issue.

I can't think of another support site that repeatedly polls or requests for honest user feedback and suggestions so often, and then spends more than double the time rationalizing why those suggestions aren't valid, or why the current system/feature/implementation is superior.

[DJLegba]

I just wrote a response to the suggestions that we use an issue tracking system.

165 views and 0 poll responses. What does that tell you?

[JimH]

165 views and 0 poll responses. What does that tell you?

You have to vote before you see the results.  There are 28 so far.

[DJLegba]

You have to vote before you see the results.  There are about 30 so far.

Once again showing myself not to be as clever as I think I am. But I have voted now, with the "please explain" option. I appreciate that the developers are here on the site answering questions and even sometimes discussing new features. However, I see the same questions asked over and over, and for the most part they are answered by enthusiastic users. A couple of examples - systems becoming unresponsive when thumbnails are being rebuilt, or crashing when bad files are encountered during auto-import. These shouldn't be things we have to learn to work around - they should be fixed.

I think the forum would be better without the constant arguments about anti-virus software.

[JimH]

Once again showing myself not to be as clever as I think I am. But I have voted now, with the "please explain" option. I appreciate that the developers are here on the site answering questions and even sometimes discussing new features. However, I see the same questions asked over and over, and for the most part they are answered by enthusiastic users. A couple of examples - systems becoming unresponsive when thumbnails are being rebuilt, or crashing when bad files are encountered during auto-import. These shouldn't be things we have to learn to work around - they should be fixed.

I think the forum would be better without the constant arguments about anti-virus software.

I don't think we're arguing about antivirus.  We get some pushback when we ask people to uninstall their antivirus software, just to test.  But we get a _lot_ of problems that are caused by antivirus.  You're probably familiar with this thread, but others may not be:
Antivirus Problems

If you'd like to talk about the issue tracking system, please post there.

[flac.rules]

I have an ambivalent view on this.

For me the forum many times works very well, you get good support, and the developers are active, and even if there are things I personally feel the developers could listen more to the community feedback about, in general I feel like MC is a very community focused company and takes a lot of the community feedback to heart, and actually change stuff. To a larger degree than most other companies.

On the other hand, I have also had it happen several times that you ask a pretty simple question (for instance: the program does [something], I don't like this [something], is it intended behavior, something wrong on my side or a bug), bumped it many times, but not gotten a single answer.

And the forums are the only actual way to get any support, which makes the situations where the forum doesn't work more frustrating. (and I also feel that sometimes one forgets the fact that the consequences of closing threads, banning users and so on is a loss of all support, it's not just a "normal forum).

So to sum up, it often works, when it works, it usually works great. But the lack of  consistency (you can never be sure to get help, and if you don't get it here, you wont get it anywhere else), is frustrating at times. So the answer is a complex one for me. I boiled down all this thoughts to " A little better than average".

[Manfred]

I general I like the forum very much and I really appreciate the support people give.

The challenge of each forum is:

You have a question: Find! the correct answer, if it has answered in the past.

If I have a question associated with MC I use first Google search to find an answer.

I rarely use the search tool part of MC. In the past I rarely find the answer with MC search.

The Wiki is on some topics outdated.

[JimH]

I rarely use the search tool part of MC. In the past I rarely find the answer with MC search.

The forum search searches only your current location.  You can go up a couple of levels to search the entire forum.  Or you can use the advanced search (magnifying glass).

[rlebrette]

On the positive side. A pretty good forum where knowledge is shared with invaluable people. As a french user all answers I got here have been clear and helpfull.
I'm involved in the biggest french forum about hardware, software and techs around HiFi and HT (the french AVS) and I can say that the JRiver forum is a pretty good source of information.
Trolls and "people who don't want to be helped" are less present than on others forums.
So as a forum tool, I would say that your forum is as valuable as others I use. A new look, a little more modern, would make it more appealing. (I think we already talked about working with a designer )

On the other side, the team use it to support users, track defects, and provide documentation. If it is right for some geeks as me, it's something that hurts a lot of the people which I present your software to. We already discussed this in several posts, and something nearer to what other editors usualy provide would be a great plus.
Every JRiver user know you are a small company of passionate people, and we can all understand that investing time and dollars in such tools is not a small thing. But in front of new users it's very important.
On the same line, I found that sometime some moderation acts are pretty hard (lock or even deletion). If I understand the main reasons, I find that a good final comment and a lock is wiser, but with some users it' sometime useless.

Your team is always good to make JRiver ecosystem better, it's a matter of spending time to make it more usable for "mainstream guys"...

Keep the work up!

[franswilco]

I like this forum. Very helpful people. I too think the wiki deserves a complete overhaul.

[ugee]

...

The forum is a help and people around here do a great job giving support.

Edit note: removed irrelevant remark(s).

[MusicHawk]

Is the Quality of this Forum important to contemplate? Like any public forum, it is as strong or weak as whatever was posted recently, so quality varies and likely always will. Of course, having Jim and Matt and JR team frequently pop up to listen, discuss, and explain is not typical, it is wonderful. But it is not enough.

JR products need structured, current, frequently updated, complete Documentation. The Forum is not it. The Wiki should be, but it seems like a long-abandoned project. The Forum can be Support, but then, whatever clarification or explanation arises should be (promptly) used to update the Wiki. The fact that so many questions get asked over and over is a problem to solve. To a customer trying to use a complex product, critical information provided in a forum format, even with a few pinned posts, is like wandering a flea marketing hoping to find what you need.

Then, when JR staff and "super users" are able to help customers in the Forum, in the big picture it is a (J)River of wasted knowledge. So much valuable and essential information is lost among many posts in many threads for many versions over many years. It can't be found again, if ever, without enormous effort and considerable luck, and then it is never clear whether the info has been superseded or is obsolete. Most critically, there's no way for a customer to know if certain information exists. Not finding it via search can simply mean the wrong word was used, or the resulting list of posts was not carefully read read read read (when do you stop?).

The complexity of MC, plus JR's other innovative products, requires actual documentation, complete, and kept up to date. The Wiki format is fine, but not if it is left up to random volunteers. Every time a user or Matt or someone posts a better solution/explanation/caution/code/whatever, it should be promptly put in the Wiki as an update or expansion.

Bug Tracking is also required. It could be a section of the Wiki, no need to devise a new web site, but it needs to be organized in at least two dimensions -- by date/version as the current Update posts provide, and also by the feature/command/action/whatever of MC (and other apps). A third dimension should state the official app version/build, a fourth the platform/OS.

I can envision product documentation, support, and issues being aspects of the single Wiki, IF it has clean searching (structured forms) and results (structured lists). That would overcome a huge flaw in the Forum being Support: It is possible to search and search and search and never hit upon the right keywords to find the information, because there is no consistency to how all of our comments are worded. (Plus, the messy way Forum results are displayed is no fun to plow through.)

Again, the Pluses are huge: JR is a responsive company, key people are often involved, the products are terrific and sometimes unmatched in functionality, and excellent values.

But the Minuses are too big to ignore, and likely prevent (too many) potential customers from understanding and using the power that makes the rest of us so happy and loyal.

Back when I was a commercial software application developer, the CEO of an accounting software company I worked with said development costs should be 10% or less. 30% should be packaging (the days of physical media and docs) and marketing. 50% should be documentation, because all of the other costs and opportunities are wasted if the customer can't succeed. That left 10% for customer-specific support (telephone support in those days), with relentless focus on improving documentation so support is not needed. (Keep in mind, accounting software is complex and business-critical to customers.) The numbers might be different, but the notions seem to be pertinent to JRiver too. (PS: The accounting software company was bought by one of the huge companies for a huge price.)


But (full disclosure) I recognize that documentation perfection is never achievable. Back when there were computer bookstores, there were endless shelves of How To books on commercial software that presumably was already documented by its makers. I wrote two of those 1100 page books when I got frustrated at the poor documentation of a Microsoft database development platform. While I was happy to cash the (smallish) checks from Que Books, I kept thinking, why didn't Microsoft write these books? I also kept thinking, again and again, I need to make some changes here and there, based on new knowledge and understanding. But I couldn't. If only I had been able to provide my documentation/guidance in a live online Wiki...

[JimH]

I've seen several comments about the wiki being outdated.  Please provide a link. 

There are many references to older versions, but it should be assumed that the information is still valid for newer versions.

If not, you could correct it.

[MusicHawk]

While I don't have time to dig through the Wiki right now for examples, here's one from right now:

Just yesterday (updated today) I posted about a MC 23.0.100 error message that seems to be incorrect message (about too long filenames), especially because it prevents doing what I need to do right now. In the Wiki I should be able to easily find that message and/or discussion of doing the action the triggers it in, elaboration of what it means and most important, what to do about it. I tried.

I first went in via the organized sections, but did not find what I needed and was not ever sure I was looking in the right place. So I tried many searches, but got a long list of posts with the words in them, but none actually discussing the topic. Also, the entire list had many many explicit mentions of ancient versions of MC. If there is anything recent it's not noticeable. Perhaps I overlooked useful info, but given the many versions of MC and Windows that are mentioned, it did not seem efficient to read comments about MC11 or 2006 posts just in case they help me in 2018 (the search returns lots of text/links that do not seem to be Documentation, or maybe it is showing too much of the Wiki plumbing (date updated or whatever) that gets in the way.

Organizing documentation is hard, trying to anticipate how a user will think and what terms/topics need to be found directly. This is why books have massive indexes (book indexing was a profession separate from book writing). A Wiki can cross-link endlessly, which closes the gap. And a search can be wonderful. But my one little current experience is an example of seeking product help and not finding it.

[ugee]

I've seen several comments about the wiki being outdated.  Please provide a link. 

There are many references to older versions, but it should be assumed that the information is still valid for newer versions.

Here's a link. 
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=outdated&go=Go

And no, I will not assume that something that was written for MC14 will work on the Mac version of MC23. If it does not I have to come back to the forum and ask, right?

If not, you could correct it.

Edit note: removed irrelevant remark(s).

[JimH]

Here's a link. 
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=outdated&go=Go

You searched for the word "outdated".  I've fixed it.  And yes, if it worked in MC14, it will work in MC30.  We don't remove functionality.

[robt]

One of the best aspects of this forum (imo) is it's generally friendly and helpful nature.

Other forums I have used can be very intolerant and operate like a bit of a closed club. When a new user comes along they are quickly slapped down for not searching through hundreds of pages or referencing a wiki that can be very difficult to understand. The "expert users" quickly forget how complex software can be, and also the value of helping someone through an issue rather than just sending them to read something that often just generates more questions!

The value of a friendly forum should not be underestimated from the point of view of retaining customers. A good forum probably generates as many licensed users as the program itself.

This is a friendly and helpful forum, long may it continue to be so.

[astromo]

Like many aspects of life, output is a function of input.

I've found this environment to be very helpful when approached with courtesy, an open mind and a willingness to appreciate how it and the software works.

Sometimes apparently straight forward change can take a long time to penetrate through to development. Also, progress can be difficult to observe from the outside. However, I've observed evidence of change being implemented so I have confidence that user feedback does make a difference. Even if it does take a while.

That's not to say there aren't other ways of achieving the objective (refer other suggestions above) that could offer a more effective end result. I'm OK with the forum only support approach. I understand why others (especially fresh faces) find it unwieldy. Personally, I'd prefer a more structured approach because my expectation is that it would be more effective. That view isn't shared by the decision makers, which is the way the world turns sometimes. So, I work with the status quo because that's all I've got and I try to make the best of it in the process.

I'm glad the question is being asked. This demonstration of engagement with the user base occurs regularly and is a key reason that I keep coming back and keep sticking with the software. Hopefully, that little piece of input is useful..   

[flac.rules]

I've seen several comments about the wiki being outdated.  Please provide a link. 

There are many references to older versions, but it should be assumed that the information is still valid for newer versions.

If not, you could correct it.

Just a random example from today, I wanted to create a new library field. There is the option to "show a link checkbox", I wanted to see what it does. But that option didn't seem to exist when the wiki-page was created:

https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Library_Fields

[jmone]

Interact is great.  How good is it that you get to converse directly to the owner, developers and experience users? 

I know of few others like it, and certainly not from any of the corporates out there.  The few times things go "off the rails" is simply when one of us users don't like the answer, or the lack of priority for something we are personally passionate about.  I know this all too well and when arguing and pleading failed, I resorted to sending all sorts of "encouragement" over the years to get my pet issue looked at.  If you want to give that a go I recommend Muffins.  These seemed to work better than sending Blu-rays, Wine, Google Homes, Gold Bar (it was very small) and even at one point (to the horror of Jim and the team) a box of live Chickens!  So to give my pet issues another plug!!! --> I'm not sure Matt has ever played that Eagles BD I sent him (I was trying to get him to build in Chapter Based Particles for many many years instead of my dodgy Swag of Tools effort).  I also think my effort in "seeding" some Google Homes has not (yet) sparked an interest in supporting them yet.

Wiki is not so good.  Like others, I've spent many hours over the years updating bits I care about.... but, I'm really not sure if it helps or not. 

Search is better with Google.  Don't know why but when I'm looking for something in Interact, I find Google works better than the inbuilt search.  I must be getting old however and forgetting stuff as I was searching for an answer to an issue and sure enough found the answer.... that I'd posted many years ago 

New Users I do feel sorry for as I've been there (like all of us).  When I started, all I wanted was a manual as I was very frustrated trying to work out how to get it all going as I wanted.  I obviously got over this but I'm sure JR loses many potential users on the way.  I don't presume to have an answer for the balance on this between the cost of resources to provide better doco/support to new users VS the additional revenue it would bring.  I trust that JimH tosses this around all the time and has come up with the balance that works for JR. 

Overall, I'm a happy camper and much more accepting on what JR will deliver in MC and how their business models works.  If it didn't they would be out of business by now.

[JimH]

One of the best aspects of this forum (imo) is it's generally friendly and helpful nature.

Other forums I have used can be very intolerant and operate like a bit of a closed club. When a new user comes along they are quickly slapped down for not searching through hundreds of pages or referencing a wiki that can be very difficult to understand. The "expert users" quickly forget how complex software can be, and also the value of helping someone through an issue rather than just sending them to read something that often just generates more questions!

The value of a friendly forum should not be underestimated from the point of view of retaining customers. A good forum probably generates as many licensed users as the program itself.

This is a friendly and helpful forum, long may it continue to be so.

Thank you for saying so.  It's one of the things I enjoy most about my job.

[1maynard]

I would like to echo jmone's comments above. JRiver's forum support is much better than any other media center forum that I have been a member of. The fact that when you have a problem or a question you can be sure that someone will respond. It may be JimH, a developer, an administrator or a member who is willing to help or who has had the same issue. I would say that I have been 95% positively satisfied with the help I have received in the short time I have been actively using the forum since I downloaded the trial. I came here as a very frustrated user of a very popular media player that uses  many different PVR back ends to watch and record Live TV. When going on their forum with an issue or question the first response given is provide a log file or no help is given. I decided to purchase MC based on the help I have received in setting it up on my system during the trial period. My biggest complaint is that the Wiki desperately needs updating to reflect the many updates and changes that are constantly being made to the program. Don't get me wrong I fully support all of the updates and improvements to the program. But it can be very overwhelming to a new user. I think the fact that JimH is asking for our input by using these polls shows that he genuinely cares about our responses on improving MC.
I would like to say thanks to Jim and all on here who respond when we ask for help. It makes a new user feel like they belong.

[michael123]

(1) Many times when I post an issue, initial reply I get is that I am doing something wrong. Similar to my company when I approach programmers.. they have no bugs.. I am an idiot. whatever..
That's completely different from, say, other forum I use frequently - lime technology / unraid.

(2) I posted many times few suggestions regarding unification of support of PCM, DSD, and capabilities against DAC.. It is not that nothing has been done, it was not even addressed properly (!). Apart from few users that agreed with me, I did not see any attention from the development team

[JimH]

Just a random example from today, I wanted to create a new library field. There is the option to "show a link checkbox", I wanted to see what it does. But that option didn't seem to exist when the wiki-page was created:

https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Library_Fields

That's not an outdated information problem.  Did you try a forum search?

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,107696.msg747517.html#msg747517

Why don't you start a new thread on wiki errors you find, and see if anyone else would like to help you tweak the wiki?

If your point is that the wiki isn't perfect, I agree.

[JimH]

(1) Many times when I post an issue, initial reply I get is that I am doing something wrong. Similar to my company when I approach programmers.. they have no bugs.. I am an idiot. whatever..
That's completely different from, say, other forum I use frequently - lime technology / unraid.

(2) I posted many times few suggestions regarding unification of support of PCM, DSD, and capabilities against DAC.. It is not that nothing has been done, it was not even addressed properly (!). Apart from few users that agreed with me, I did not see any attention from the development team

We read the posts, but we don't always reply.  If we agree with the ideas, sometimes we implement them.  It depends on difficulty, importance, and other work.

[michael123]

We read the posts, but we don't always reply.  If we agree with the ideas, sometimes we implement them.  It depends on difficulty, importance, and other work.

Of course, as with other software company, but I would like to see some dialog, or even short reply.

[JimH]

Of course, as with other software company, but I would like to see some dialog, or even short reply.

I try.  So do the rest of the team.  We can't always manage.

In an attempt to explain why the response may be lacking or short, here's a story.

A reader of E.B. White's books (Charlotte's Webb, Stuart Little, and others) wrote to E.B. White late in his life, asking to visit him.  The reader continues the story:

"This was years before email, and I had no idea the postal service could operate so quickly. Within four days an envelope was in my mailbox, with elegant pale blue lettering showing the return address in the upper left hand corner. 'Dear Mr. Ferguson,” the letter read. “Thank you for your letter about the possibility of a visit.” After this uplifting sentence, the tone went brittle. He mentioned a couple of his stubborn ailments, including his failing eyesight. And then: “So here I am, one eye gone, half my wits gone, and you want to come and view the ruins. Figure it out. There’s one of me, at most, and there are ten thousand of you. Please don’t come. Sincerely, E. B. White.'"

Complete version of the story

[flac.rules]

That's not an outdated information problem.  Did you try a forum search?

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,107696.msg747517.html#msg747517

Why don't you start a new thread on wiki errors you find, and see if anyone else would like to help you tweak the wiki?

If your point is that the wiki isn't perfect, I agree.

My point wasn't really anything more than you asked for examples of the wiki not being up to date, and I happened to stumble across that today.

[michael123]

I try.  So do the rest of the team.  We can't always manage.

In an attempt to explain why the response may be lacking or short, here's a story.

Complete version of the story

Honestly - sometimes I indeed feel like this unlucky Mr. Ferguson.

JRiver is a great app, I stopped using everything else was on my PC (foobar, MPC, VLC, ..). I use JRiver for all my audio (audiophile and casual) and video needs.

However, since you started this poll, here I am..

[DJLegba]

I try.  So do the rest of the team.  We can't always manage.

In an attempt to explain why the response may be lacking or short, here's a story.

E.B. White was retired then. He had a publisher taking care of the business end of things...

[JimH]

Split Tag Importing from Video Files

[drmimosa]

Definitely well above average!! Thank you for the time you have invested in building this forum, JimH.

I have spent a few years reading and posting on Interact. It seems the volume of posts with helpful responses is really high. Most questions with answers get answers, often directly from developers. Feature requests always seem to get serious consideration, and many requests are implemented.

It's also a very friendly place and full of new ideas. I often just stroll through posts to learn more about media networking and computer playback. A great recent example is the thread last week on backup strategies.

[RoderickGI]

I said "Well above average", because the forum is well moderated to remain friendly, provides excellent access to developers which is only exceeded in one or two-man businesses, and overall provides quality answers to questions at all levels of experience.

But then I don't stay on unfriendly forums for longer than I have to. I've spent some time on a lot of shockers though, and quite a few that try very hard to remain helpful, and in comparison Interact comes out ahead.

That is mostly down to your efforts I think Jim, and the way you assign users to the Beta team, so that there is an ongoing supply of new experienced Beta team members to assist the new MC users.


The one thing I would really like to see on the forum is the ability to Up or Down Vote a post. Yes, it could be abused. But I often see great answers from someone, which then seems to get ignored, or lost in the flow of less helpful answers. My mouse finger itches to click a "Like" button or similar (I actually think the Up/Down Vote method is better), but alas I can't.

In many threads there emerges more than one train of thought for possible solutions to explanations of an issue. Again, an Up/Down Vote on posts would allow users to share their opinion of an idea quickly without having to write a "Me too" post that just clogs up the thread, requiring more time to page through it and find some meaningful information.


On the other side of the coin, I used to use some simple forums built on SMF or other forum software, which updated their look, linked to social media and so on, which I then stopped using as they became too complex and cluttered to easily see what was going on. The addition of advertising has killed several independent forums for me. So simple is good. Never go overboard on forum features.

[hoyt]

The first reply is spot on to me.  The forum support itself is superb.  I work for a large IT/ software company, and we have "forums" for our users.  The support is nothing like this.  However, we also have a support feature and separate defect and enhancement tracking functions.  I know the thought by JRiver is that this would be extra work, but it helps tremendously.  It helps you, and it helps the customer to see what you're working on and feel involved in the process.  We have a voting type system, but it's not the vote count which dictates something getting added to the roadmap for development.  It simply helps us gauge people's interest.  We also have wiki pages (thousands of them) and I can count the number of times I've seen a user update them.  I learned years ago that just because it's a wiki-like page does not mean the need for documentation development goes away.  It just means updates get out faster (no need to "publish" a document).

This whole "Too easy" thread is a prime example why the current system is flawed.  It's impossible to follow.  Do you think most users are going to wade through 23 pages of incoherent forum posts to figure out if someone else has suggested it and if you've implemented it?

I know you split the discussion for Issue Tracking Systems, and if you think this belongs there I'm sure you'll move it, but the two are inherently linked.  It's a missing piece in the the entire customer support experience.  I like Media Center and JRiver.  Your staff is incredibly helpful on the forums and I hope you know we all appreciate that.  Using an Issue Tracking System does not need to detract from that.

[stewart_pk]

I can't vote as I've never experienced another support forum. 

[JimH]

Split Suggestions for the Wiki

[JimH]

I can't vote as I've never experienced another support forum. 

You're our favorite customer!

[OverTheAir]

The question "How does JRiver's forum support compare to other forum experiences you've had?" seems to put the cart in front of the horse IMV. Personally I would start from the perspective of what support is required for MC and then evaluate which tools address (or are intended to address) those support requirements and how well they do so in the context of a suite of support solutions. The forum is only one tool, good at some things, not so much at others. The forum is generally good if perhaps not always very efficient at answering problems, in no small part due to a number of highly knowledgeable users willing to contribute significant time in doing so.

Where I feel the forum fails is in educating a user on the advanced features and capabilities of MC. This quote seems apropos in highlighting the weakness. "There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know."

A user who has "known knowns" is OK and doesn't need help. A user with "known unknowns" can search for answers. This may be inefficient and not always successful but the user can still ask for help if search is unsuccessful. But how can you use a forum for the "unknown unknowns"? How does one ask for something one may not even know one needs or could benefit from? I've seen long term, experienced users on this forum express surprise about capabilities/features of MC of which they were unaware. To be sure the forum eventually uncovered these capabilities for them but how long has the user been ignorant of those capabilities and thus had a worse user experience than was possible, finally having been informed more by chance than anything else? And how many other users fall into that same category of "under achievers"? This seems to be why threads like these keep detailing the need for documentation and an updated wiki.

I probably fall in the "known unknowns" camp. Having browsed some threads in the past, I know there are nice to have capabilities "out there" that are not apparent from reading through all the application menus. However, in the absence of a structured way to incrementally learn about MC capabilities they remain "known unknowns" for me despite the best of intentions in the past to track them down, to the point where I'm struggling to even recall what they were. Perhaps as I get ever older they will slip from memory altogether and I can blissfully revert to a world of "unknown unknowns" 

[tbng]

I have never liked community support sites, and JRiver's gives me no reason to change my mind.  I want to talk directly to the experts.  Yes, other users can at times offer good suggestions, but other users can also lead you utterly astray, or take the subject so far afield from its original intent that you become lost in the verbal quagmire.

I'd much rather post a case that has a trackable number and have JRiver support personnel deal with issues and update requests.  And there is a grave need for an updated, thorough, and well indexed online user manual.

[CountryBumkin]

For me, when I have a problem, 90% of ot the time it is not due to the JRiver software. It something going on with my computer hardware, operating system/upgrades, home network, storage, etc.

However since the effects of these (hardware/OS) problems are only seen when using Media Center, that is where I go first for help. And I usually blame the JRiver product first. It seems to be easier to first blame (and then eliminate) the JRiver software, before moving on to investigating other causes.

I understand that it is difficult, if not impossible, for JRiver to diagnose and help every User that posts a problem when the issue is not with their software.

I think the support is here is excellent for the JRiver product, and as good or better, (thanks to the members) for hardware/OS issues as I would get from the TenForums, nVidia forums, or other similar specific support forums. There are some really smart people on this forum. Thanks.

[BillT]

I have never liked community support sites, and JRiver's gives me no reason to change my mind.  I want to talk directly to the experts.

There is one extremely good reason to be thankful for forums, and that is the public visibility that they generally provide. If I have a problem the first thing I do is an internet search and generally the most useful results will come from a customers answer in a forum, very rarely from the maker or retailer. Of course, talking directly removes any possibility that any answer is useful to the public at large.

Of course it is simply not economically feasible to provide that sort of one to one resource from a small company selling dirt cheap software.

[robt]

I have never liked community support sites, and JRiver's gives me no reason to change my mind.  I want to talk directly to the experts.  Yes, other users can at times offer good suggestions, but other users can also lead you utterly astray, or take the subject so far afield from its original intent that you become lost in the verbal quagmire.

I'd much rather post a case that has a trackable number and have JRiver support personnel deal with issues and update requests.  And there is a grave need for an updated, thorough, and well indexed online user manual.

Thats one of the strong points of this forum as you are speaking not just to experts, but to the developers much of the time.

[Mike Foran]

I find the forum help is not perfect. It's often great, it's often not. The biggest issue for me is finding current information. This is true with the Wiki as well. I don't like to just dump questions in the forum without looking for an answer first, but often the answers I find are many years out of date. So is issue still relevant or has it been fixed or changed? Is the answer still accurate or is it based on an old version? Some answers go back a decade or more. The Wiki suffers from similar issues. That being said, when I ask a question is is answered 70% of the time, and I always appreciate the time and effort put in to many of the answers.

[tzr916]

The forum and wiki can be very good at welcoming newbies and helping all users with things like:
- how to sort library by xyz
- please add feature abc
- how do I use advanced tagging
- why is there no sound coming from my speakers
- videos are skipping frames
- etc


But, reporting serious problems like bugs or crashes is another story. The current system is not professional. I always try not to post bugs/crashes without first doing the simple stuff like antivirus, reboot, uninstall, rollback MC version, update/rollback drivers, try another machine, etc. But I understand not everyone is as thorough, so maybe bugs/crashes could be handled with a dedicated support site with a form, a ticket number, and sent to actual MC developers for resolution. Or maybe have a separate sub forum just for bugs/crashes and put up a sticky that everyone must follow or it will be deleted. Sure would cut down on the "noise", might even help with problem tracking.