Topic: OpenHome support (Read 15629 times)

JimH · « **Reply #50 on:** February 13, 2019, 05:23:19 am »

Quote from: mark_h on February 13, 2019, 04:23:15 am

And finally, given that MC's implementation is correct, but "strict" - would it be desirable to make it MC's renderer scan more "fuzzy" to assist finding broken renderers?

That would be an ugly kludge and could cause other problems.

I sent an email to sales at aurilic in the UK.

AndrewFG · « **Reply #51 on:** February 13, 2019, 05:36:23 am »

Quote from: mark_h on February 13, 2019, 04:23:15 am

Is there anything specific you can give me to tackle support AURALiC with?

I just set up the Sonore Rendu as an OpenHome renderer and MC can see it, suggesting your analysis is correct (or Sonore's device is "broken"!). What is different about the information the Rendu is providing that isn't broken compared to the AURALiC?

It’s hard to be specific with the information so far provided. But it is evident that the Auralic is providing much less self description information than the Sonore does. I think the syntax of its UDN looks wrong, but that’s not a showstopper (at least not for my DMRA). It is possible that the Auralic is not providing (proper) device description documentS DDD or service description documents SCPD, but this is just a guess.

You could try my DMRA again, but this time turn on the HTTP logging option before running the discovery again, and either post or PM me with the resulting log file. Alternatively you could see if Device Spy has a similar logging option, and/or whether it can display the respective DDD and/or SCPD files.

Quote from: mark_h on February 13, 2019, 04:23:15 am

And finally, given that MC's implementation is correct, but "strict" - would it be desirable to make it MC's renderer scan more "fuzzy" to assist finding broken renderers?

No, that is not a good idea. MC requires MediaRenderers (for playing media to) and MediaServers (for uploading media from). So searching for other devices, or wildcards, (such as webcams, printers, routers, etc.) would generate excessive traffic, and also confuse users greatly I think.

mark_h · « **Reply #52 on:** February 13, 2019, 07:35:35 am »

Quote from: JimH on February 13, 2019, 05:17:13 am

Mark,
Could you send a link to AndrewFG's last post to Auralic support?

Thanks,

Jim

Yes, will do, unless Andrew has something more specific that I can send. [edit]I see Andrew already commented above[/edit]

It occurred to me that you might also want to make an official contact given their manual calls JRiver out by name as incompatible, which, given the above seems like a smear...

mark_h · « **Reply #53 on:** February 13, 2019, 08:43:14 am »

Quote from: AndrewFG on February 13, 2019, 05:36:23 am

either post or PM me

You have PM.

AndrewFG · « **Reply #54 on:** February 13, 2019, 05:06:02 pm »

I got the PMs thank you. I need to think about it. I will get back in one or two days.

mark_h · « **Reply #55 on:** February 14, 2019, 01:11:53 am »

Thank you.

AndrewFG · « **Reply #56 on:** February 16, 2019, 12:00:03 pm »

Hi, I looked at the XML that you sent me..

Positives..

It is clearly trying to present itself as a UPnP device.
And indeed it is claiming to be a "urn:schemas-upnp-org:device:MediaRenderer:1"
It does support the "urn:schemas-upnp-org:service:RenderingControl:1" service
It does support the "urn:schemas-upnp-org:service:ConnectionManager:1" service

Negatives..

The inability of my DMRA or MC to discover it, shows that it is not advertising itself as a Media Renderer via SSDP NOTIFY or responding to searches for Media Renderers under SSDP MSEARCH
Its Device Descriptor XML is incomplete; it must provide all mandatory XML field values even if they are empty; the Auralic just omits them..
It does NOT support the "urn:schemas-upnp-org:service:AVTransport:1" service

Based on this, I reckon that the manufacturer has 90% of the code that they need in order to make their product UPnP / DLNA compliant. They have the code for SSDP NOTIFY and MSEARCH so they just need to clone that to include the MediaRenderer advertisements and responses. They have the code for the DDD and SCPD so they just need to implement the missing fields. And they have the code for the various OpenHome player command services, so they would need to clone and modify that to support AVTransport (these transport commands are ones like Play, Stop, Pause, Seek, Prev, Next, plus status methods like getting the transport state, the transport position, etc.)

I would be happy to provide more details if they ask for it..

mark_h · « **Reply #57 on:** February 17, 2019, 01:31:14 am »

Thanks, Andrew, this is great. I will now follow up with their customer support.

mark_h · « **Reply #58 on:** February 20, 2019, 01:55:59 am »

OK, so after some to-ing and fro-ing with support I have a clearer indication of their position, which is basically this:

Having been burnt by many frustrating support issues over UPnP/DLNA on previous products, they simply decided to stop supporting generic UPnP/DLNA any further: it's Roon, the (as they see it) more robust OpenHome or their own app, and that's it.

I can sympathise with their position, and I must say that having been forced to try Roon I really quite like it, especially when partnered with streaming services, but it's a pale comparison to JRiver when it comes to customising and curating ones own collection. Fortunately their Lightning DS app will interact with a JRiver server and so I can still present my JRiver customised menus to their system and play my collection that way if needed.

However, the conclusion is that AURALiC is not the ideal device for a JRiver user.

Caveat Emptor!

mark_h · « **Reply #59 on:** February 20, 2019, 02:04:03 am »

And to follow the above, I'd like to make an apology to Jim and JRiver. The frustration of a non-functional new bit of kit and a manual that suggested that JRiver was the source of the incompatibility lead me to the wrong conclusion: occam's razor is a sharp tool and if not used careful can cut the wielder, as it did in this instance.

On the plus side, we got the truth and learned some stuff on the way.

Scobie · « **Reply #60 on:** February 20, 2019, 04:15:52 am »

Quote

I can sympathise with their position

Thats fair enough; but I think it would be fairer for them to simply indicate they do not wish to support certain frameworks and point out the reasons why as they did in your correspondence, rather than to imply the reason for any incompatibility is down to the lack of capability or the obsolescence of the product in question.

mark_h · « **Reply #61 on:** February 20, 2019, 04:21:08 am »

Quote from: Scobie on February 20, 2019, 04:15:52 am

Thats fair enough; but I think it would be fairer for them to simply indicate they do not wish to support certain frameworks and point out the reasons why as they did in your correspondence, rather than to imply the reason for any incompatibility is down to the lack of capability or the obsolescence of the product in question.

Agreed. I wouldn't have purchased the G1 had that been made clear.

JimH · « **Reply #62 on:** February 20, 2019, 06:16:45 am »

Thanks for your patience in getting to the bottom of this.

I have to say that their position is incredible. They've dropped a standard and gone with a non-standard, and they act as if they haven't. UPnP should be removed from any description of OpenHome. It isn't UPnP. It's almost UPnP.

JimH · « **Reply #63 on:** February 20, 2019, 06:28:05 am »

Could you ask your contact at Auralic to have their CTO or above to get in touch with me? jimh at jriver. The information in their manual should be corrected. They're implying that there is a flaw in JRiver that prevents it from working with their equipment, and it appears that the reverse is true.

Or just forward me the email.

Thanks.

mark_h · « **Reply #64 on:** February 20, 2019, 07:36:09 am »

Jim,

My only contact is through their support email (support AT auralic DOT com). However, it's the same guy each time and the way he writes gives me the impression that he's in some position of authority within the company... and if not, he should be able to put you in touch with whoever is.

JimH · « **Reply #65 on:** February 20, 2019, 09:18:05 am »

Thanks.

Scobie · « **Reply #66 on:** February 20, 2019, 04:55:53 pm »

Quote

It isn't UPnP. It's almost UPnP.

I hope it is not the case but it certainly smells like the functionality was purposely deprecated in order for them to spruik the capabilties of OpenHome against "legacy" products.

Surely it is actually more difficult to implement 90% of a standard than to implement the complete stack.

AndrewFG · « **Reply #67 on:** February 20, 2019, 07:08:23 pm »

Quote from: JimH on February 20, 2019, 06:28:05 am

Could you ask your contact at Auralic to have their CTO or above to get in touch with me? jimh at jriver. The information in their manual should be corrected. They're implying that there is a flaw in JRiver that prevents it from working with their equipment, and it appears that the reverse is true.

Or just forward me the email.

Thanks.

Jim, my impression is that with about a weeks worth of development on their side plus a weeks worth of testing, they could make their product properly compatible. That surely would be better than simply modifying documentation to say it doesn’t work. Or ??

JimH · « **Reply #68 on:** February 21, 2019, 06:43:22 am »

Quote from: AndrewFG on February 20, 2019, 07:08:23 pm

Jim, my impression is that with about a weeks worth of development on their side plus a weeks worth of testing, they could make their product properly compatible. That surely would be better than simply modifying documentation to say it doesn’t work. Or ??

That would be ideal, but ...

I did have a brief (so far) conversation with support at Auralic.

gulp · « **Reply #69 on:** November 07, 2019, 03:25:51 am »

I still hope things develop in this regard. JRiver ist my favorite SW, I just see more and more manufacturers leaving uPNP/DLNA, as all are complaining about it and often explicitely about JRiver integration support hassle...not sure what will be the future of JRiver then.

I read somewhere JRemote won't be updated anymore, too, so if that's also true...my whole perfect world seems to dissipate. I wonder what's the strategy of JRiver.

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #70 on:** November 07, 2019, 03:33:04 am »

Quote from: gulp on November 07, 2019, 03:25:51 am

I read somewhere JRemote won't be updated anymore, too

That's not true, JRemote2 for Android is in active development and is close to beta testing. That does mean the original JRemote isn't being sold on the Play Store anymore (you can still download it if you previously bought it) and JRemote2 is a complete rewrite so it's a separate app (thus a paid upgrade).

People have said for years now they'd pay for JRemote upgrades, so they're going to get their opportunity with the new major version coming. But remember like I said, if you already bought the original JRemote you can still download it from the Play Store in your library.

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,122818.0.html

dtc · « **Reply #71 on:** November 07, 2019, 07:02:15 am »

Quote from: gulp on November 07, 2019, 03:25:51 am

I read somewhere JRemote won't be updated anymore, too, so if that's also true...my whole perfect world seems to dissipate. I wonder what's the strategy of JRiver.

As I understand it, JRemote is written with a very different framework than MC. At one point JRiver decided not to continue active development of JRemote, partially because of those differences. However, they have since recognized the importance of JRemote and undertook a complete rewrite of the Android version. This will not only improve JRemote functionality but also provide them a platform for further development. It is a very welcome new development.

ThierryNK · « **Reply #72 on:** August 27, 2021, 04:43:47 am »

Hi

I am a big fan of JRiver for many many years, and I upgrade my licence every 2-3 years.

I use JRiver both as UPNP Server and with USB, as I am a French audio reviewer on Audiophile Magazine and 6moons.

For my own music listening, I use JRiver UPNP and JRemote on IOS.

I recently bought a Auralic Aries G2.1

It definitively requires a Open Home control point.

Roon (that I dislike for many reasons) tries to kill UPNP and JRiver, which is, in my opinion, their more serious competitor (and vice versa)

For using my Auralic Aries G2.1, I use JRiver Media Library and Lumin IOS App which is a Open Home control point. Lumin App also integrates Streaming Services as Qobuz that I use. I have read several times on this forum that JRiver will never integrate Qobuz.

I still prefer JRemote, but this Lumin App has serious advantages.

Of course technical and marketing decisions belong to JRiver, but as Roon is a serious competitor of JRiver and as Auralic stuff are very (very) good digital drives, would it be a huge effort to have the option for JRiver of being a Open Home Control Point?

Kind regards

JimH · « **Reply #73 on:** August 27, 2021, 06:40:31 am »

In the specifications at the bottom of this page: https://us.auralic.com/products/aries-g2-1?variant=34539988517032

it mentions UPnP server.

OpenHome seems like a minor player compared to UPnP / DLNA. If Bubble supports it, you might be able to use Bubble from JRiver.

Are you trying to play to it? Or just control it?

ThierryNK · « **Reply #74 on:** August 27, 2021, 07:21:39 am »

Auralic accepts (and can see thought their own app) UPNP/DLNA Media LIBRARIES

Their own library in their app is UPNP/DLNA.

But you need a Open Home Control Point to play the Auralic Aries G.2.1

First Auralic Aries was accepting UPNP Control points.

Regards

ThierryNK · « **Reply #75 on:** August 27, 2021, 09:02:25 am »

PS

Bubble is a Open Home control point, so it will work with JRiver Media Library and Auralic Aries G2.1

But it does not exist on IOS and I find it quite limited.

If you talk about bubbleupnp server (that I sometimes use), it can transform a UPNP Renderer into a Open Home one, but not the opposite

So, I said I currently use for the Auralic Aries G2.1:

JRiver media Library
Lumin App on IOS, that has also Qobuz

Lumin app cannot open the pdf in JRiver Media Library as JRemote does, and, for me, JRemote is better, with for example, a playlist fullscreen view

Regards

MikeyFresh · « **Reply #76 on:** August 29, 2021, 05:47:58 pm »

Have you tried Linn Kazoo?

ThierryNK · « **Reply #77 on:** August 29, 2021, 06:05:52 pm »

My question is not to find another OpenHome Control point (have a look 4 or 5 posts above with my first post on this thread), Lumin App is OK.

But yes, I have tried Linn Kazoo, that I find not very good:

- when you press your finger on an album, nothing. In JRemote and Lumin app you can decide to play the album and where to put it in your playlist, with Kazoo, you have to open the album

- more important, their cache system is either defective or non existent, it takes very long to open any composer or any category, even if you just opened it. It seems that each time you open something, the app asks again the content to the server. This is a no go (JRemote and Lumin app are OK from this point of view too)

So my question was: will someday JRiver have the option to become a OpenHome Control point.

Kind regards

ThierryNK · « **Reply #78 on:** August 29, 2021, 06:08:34 pm »

My mistake, for the first point in Kazoo, you have the 3 dots to decide what to do with the album

MikeyFresh · « **Reply #79 on:** August 29, 2021, 06:17:38 pm »

Quote from: ThierryNK on August 29, 2021, 06:05:52 pm

My question is not to find another OpenHome Control point (have a look 4 or 5 posts above with my first post on this thread), Lumin App is OK.

But yes, I have tried Linn Kazoo, that I find not very good:

- when you press your finger on an album, nothing. In JRemote and Lumin app you can decide to play the album and where to put it in your playlist, with Kazoo, you have to open the album

- more important, their cache system is either defective or non existent, it takes very long to open any composer or any category, even if you just opened it. It seems that each time you open something, the app asks again the content to the server. This is a no go (JRemote and Lumin app are OK from this point of view too)

So my question was: will someday JRiver have the option to become a OpenHome Control point.

Kind regards

Understood, and I knew what question you were asking, but I thought I'd inquire if you had tried Linn Kazoo mainly because I use Android, not iOS, so I was curious if Kazoo might somehow suit you better on iOS because my only use of Kazoo is from their macOS desktop application.

I too prefer JRemote, but can't use it for Qobuz, so BubbleUPnP it is for me on Android.

ThierryNK · « **Reply #80 on:** August 29, 2021, 06:29:05 pm »

No problem at al!

Sometimes you get useful information even if it is not exactly the subject.

I am a Hifi and music reviewer, and I run nearly every music media server and control points, both on IOS and Android. Except Roon that I dislike, even if I had a free licence as a reviewer

Yes Qobuz is not included in JRemote, but it is not so dramatic, I have another App when I want to listen to new albums with Qobuz.

Kind regards

krmasson · « **Reply #81 on:** August 30, 2021, 06:38:10 am »

@ThierryNK
Am I allowed to ask which app you are using to listen to Qobuz ?

Many thanks in advance.

CM

ThierryNK · « **Reply #82 on:** August 30, 2021, 06:59:19 am »

Quote from: krmasson on August 30, 2021, 06:38:10 am

@ThierryNK
Am I allowed to ask which app you are using to listen to Qobuz ?

Many thanks in advance.

CM

Of course!!!

For Open Home players: Lumin app on IOS
For UPNP players: mconnectHD on IOS that I bought a long time ago, before using Lumin app

On Android that I do not often use: BubbleUPNP

I also use sometimes BubbleUPnP Server that allows, among other things, to stream to a Chromecast. BubbleUPnP Server IS NOT a IOS/Android App, it is an application running on computers, associated with your UPNP server.

Regards

krmasson · « **Reply #83 on:** August 30, 2021, 07:34:05 am »

Thanks, I will try BubbleUpnp to access Qobuz from my Android device, that will avoid me to have to physically access the computer hosting Qobuz.

I have once tried BubbleUPNP server (it builds an OpenHome server over JRiver, as you said), but it did not totally fit my use case.

CM

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Author Topic: OpenHome support (Read 15629 times)