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[MagnusH]

I use Roon, but thought I would try JRiver as an engine, so the chain I use now is Roon -> JRiver 25 (trial) -> DAC. In JRiver I have some vst plugins, and I up-sample everything with SoX to 192.

However, I often get pops and clicks at beginning of tunes, especially if the tune is another sample rate (for example, going from CD to MQA).

I have also tried using Reaper (DAW) as an engine, and it works using the same VST plugins without any pops and clicks.

Is there any fix for this? The pops can occur during several seconds and is very annoying, and in my playlist I have different sample rates so I get the pops every now and then if I play randomly.

[JimH]

What happens if you just use JRiver?

Some DAC's don't handle sample rate changes cleanly.  You could try playing a little silence first (MC has a setting), but better would be to resample everything using MC's DSP Studio > Output settings.

Increasing the buffer settings might also help.

[MagnusH]

I am up-sampling everything to 192, so its definitely not the DAC. And Roon just sends bit-perfect data to an audio endpoint, so the problem is JRiver.

I should clarify, its more like a few seconds of stuttering.

[Awesome Donkey]

Like Jim said, try increasing the buffer settings. Depending on how powerful your PC is, you might try experimenting with memory playback too.

[MagnusH]

The chain is this: Roon -> JRiver Audio Endpoint -> JRiver -> DAC

Memory playback is going to be hard to accomplish, and buffer settings don't seem to matter.

[JimH]

What happens without Roon?

What happens if you resample to a lower sample rate?

Can you try a different DAC?

That will help separate where the problem is. 

[MagnusH]

Resampling seems to make it worse, but the problem is there even if I don't resample. I don't have any other DAC to try, but this is not a DAC issue, it gets the same same sample rate so it don't need to switch (I have an RME ADI-2 FS DAC).

[JimH]

Without Roon?

[MagnusH]

Haven't tried without Roon, but the whole purpose is to move the engine from Roon to JRiver but let Roon handle the library and Tidal integration.

I can get a similar setup working with Reaper (DAW) with no stuttering, but Reaper has no oversampling so I have to do that in Roon, and I wanted to try the SoX oversampler in JRiver. Exactly the same setup, with oversampling in Roon, but using JRiver instead of Reaper also gives stuttering.

[JimH]

To narrow it down, it would be helpful to test one or two components at a time.  Your setup is fairly complex.

Are you using MC's WDM driver?  I assume so.

[MagnusH]

Yes, the one that's named "Speakers (JRiver Media Center 25)". Roon plays to that audio endpoint, and the output from JRiver is through WASAPI driver to toslink and then DAC.

[JimH]

It appears you're using UPnP / DLNA, and not the WDM driver.   

Again, testing with less complexity might help isolate the problem.

[MagnusH]

I think I do, here is the actions needed to reproduce the error:
1. In JRiver, turn on Tools -> Options -> Features -> WDM Driver
2. Restart JRiver
3. Set audio output in JRiver to the soundcard connected to the DAC (WASAPI)
4. Set audio output in Roon to the audio endpoint called "Speakers (JRiver Media Center 25)" which seems to be the WDM driver that JRiver creates
5. From within Roon, play a vanilla CD tune (16/44) and jump to a tune with another sample rate and listen to 5 seconds of stuttering.

I also tried to up-sample everything from "DSP Studio" in JRiver to 192 khz, and the up-sampling works (I can see sample rate on the DAC display), but the stuttering did not disappear but only got worse.

[MagnusH]

It works better but not perfect using only JRiver, some strange sounds occasionally when switching between tunes in different sample rates.

[JimH]

So, JRiver, and converting all to one sample rate?  Start at 44.1 and work your way up.

[dtc]

You might also try the Tidal desktop application. You should be able to play the same tracks in the Tidal app as in Roon with Tidal.  That would help to determine if the Roon interface may be the problem with WDM.  You need to set up the Tidal app to do exclusive output to do MQA.

Just to check, you can try different sample rates and with changing sample rates from within JRiver, without the WDM,  to be sure there is no issue with the DAC. It is probably fine.

You should also try the WDM without the plugins and without the upsampling, to see if you hear the clicks without any of the add-ons. Then add the components in one at a time to see if you can figure out when the clicks occur.

Typically the WDM works well with higher sample rates, but people do sometimes report clicks between tracks when using WDM at higher sample rates. They are typically at the beginning of a track and are quite short. But people do report them occasionally.  But it is worth it to try to figure out which components are in play when the clicks occur.

[JimH]

It would be good to test with MQA and without MQA.

[MagnusH]

Tried in Tidal desktop app, and it is also buggy.

If I don't oversample in JRiver, the new song might play faster or slower for a few seconds. For example, going from 96khz to 44khz would produce a few seconds of slow music.

The problem seems to exists for all changes in sample rate, with or without upsampling. I don't have any other DSP enabled in DSP Studio.

Using the Tidal desktop app, exclusive mode and the settings that unfolds MQA in software, it should be easy to reproduce for others. Just play an MQA tune, then play a non-MQA tune.

[JimH]

We don't support MQA in any way.  Your problem might be related to a delay in conversion ("unfolding").

Please test something other than MQA.

[dtc]

Tried in Tidal desktop app, and it is also buggy.

If I don't oversample in JRiver, the new song might play faster or slower for a few seconds. For example, going from 96khz to 44khz would produce a few seconds of slow music.

The problem seems to exists for all changes in sample rate, with or without upsampling. I don't have any other DSP enabled in DSP Studio.

Using the Tidal desktop app, exclusive mode and the settings that unfolds MQA in software, it should be easy to reproduce for others. Just play an MQA tune, then play a non-MQA tune.

Can you play Tidal directly to your DAC, bypassing JRiver, to confirm that Tidal is playing correctly.

[MagnusH]

Tidal and Roon playing directly to the DAC works perfectly, its when piping through JRiver that I get problems, but only when sample rate changes.

And it's not MQA related, I have tried between flac tunes in different sample rates. Besides, I let Tidal/Roon do the first unfold so JRiver will see a PCM file in higher sample rate.

[JimH]

Did you try this?

So, JRiver, and converting all to one sample rate?  Start at 44.1 and work your way up.

[MagnusH]

Did you try this?

Yes, I get the problem with or without up-sampliong, and it does not matter what I up-sample to or which sample rates the tunes has, as long as they are different.

Anyone at your end tried to reproduce this error? I don't think this is due to my setup (but can't be sure of course).

[JimH]

Yes, I get the problem with or without up-sampliong, and it does not matter what I up-sample to or which sample rates the tunes has, as long as they are different.

Please provide more detail.

What I'm suggesting is that you re-sample everything to 44.1, to start with.  Do you still have a problem then?

You're getting closer, but you need to test each piece, one at a time.

Leave MQA and Tidal out until you have it working without problems.

[JimH]

mwheelerk reported a problem with Roon here:
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/57269-no-music-for-me-for-a-while/?tab=comments#comment-992758

That whole thread might be worth reading, just for ideas.

[JimH]

and here:
https://community.roonlabs.com/t/roon-1-5-sound-problems-with-devialet/42676/22

It might be worth searching for similar problems involving Roon or MQA or Tidal.

[dtc]

This is from  a thread on WDM. Just something to check.

I had pops/clicks also after turning on Volume Leveling in -->Tools-->Options-->Audio-->DSP.  Once I turned that off, the popping went away.

[JimH]

and this:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,121773.msg842358.html#msg842358

[MagnusH]

No volume leveling, and tried ASIO driver as well. Its not a Windows 10 latency issue, I have had those and they give the occasional pop. My problem only happens the first few seconds on a tune with different sample rate compared to the previous tune.

If I were to speculate, I would say that JRiver plays the new tune with the old tunes sample rate for a few seconds, before it discovers it has to change sample rate.

[dtc]

and this:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,121773.msg842358.html#msg842358

That refers to ASIO latency, which I do not believe he is using. The discussion is about adjusting buffer sizes. Unfortunately, buffer adjustments were not implemented with WDM. They could possibly be a help in this situation, but how to do them is not documented.

[JimH]

Try playing files from JRiver, without Roon or MQA or Tidal. 

Do original files work?

Do re-sampled files work?

You've just got to narrow down what works and what doesn't, without so many pieces.

Let's not speculate where the problem is yet.

In the upper right corner of JRiver, hover your mouse over the Settings icon and see what the audio path is.

[dtc]

I would suggest you try stopping the first track and then start up the second track. I have seen occasional minor glitches when changing tracks without stopping the playing track.

[MagnusH]

To summarize:
- the problem only happens when playing a new tune in a sample rate different than the last played (or currently playing) tune.
- it happens with both Roon and Tidal
- It does not happen when playing tunes from JRiver (no MQA involved)
- It happens both with and without up-sampling in JRiver (although the stuttering sounds a little different)
- Playing one tune, stopping in and starting a new tune in a new sample rate, also gives stuttering

The fact that JRiver (if not using upsampling) plays a tune in a new sample rate faster or slower (with stuttering), would indicate that it either discovers the new sample rate late, or that it discovers it when it happens but already buffered data is played with wrong sample rate.

Have you been able to reproduce this error in your setup?

[Matt]

What happens if you increase the prebuffering setting (Options > Audio > Settings > Prebuffering).

Try 20 seconds and let us know what that does.

[JimH]

That's a helpful summary.

Are you not able to get around this by resampling everything to a low sample rate?  48Khz, for example?

We don't test with Roon or Tidal.  Neither are supported, but if you use WDM, and your version of JRiver is recent, they may work.  Any audio output should work with WDM since it's just a Windows driver.

Could you run the benchmark under Help in MC and paste the results here?  I just want to be sure you're not using a machine that isn't capable enough.

[MagnusH]

Prebuffering did nothing (it did not even add 20 seconds latency), I would guess its only active when JRiver is player and can pre-read from disk.

Benchmark: JRMark (version 25.0.104 64 bit): 5143

I haven't tried this (I leave this to you), but it would be surprising if some other player like foobar2000 would not give the same problems, and test files for different sample rates can be downloaded from here: http://www.2l.no/hires/

[JimH]

That's a good benchmark.  It's not a machine problem.

[Matt]

If it's only on sample rate changes, what if you try the option Options > Audio > Settings > Play silence at startup for hardware synchronization?

[MagnusH]

If it's only on sample rate changes, what if you try the option Options > Audio > Settings > Play silence at startup for hardware synchronization?

It plays a second of the new tune, then silence and then stuttering. But even if it removed the stuttering, its not a very good solution due to the long latency.

[JimH]

When you're reporting results, please include whether you're resampling everything and to what sample-rate.  If the DAC is the problem, resampling everything to something like 48Khz or 96Khz should help.

Also report what the source is.  Avoid Roon and Tidal until you get it working right.  They just add other points of failure.

You mentioned foobar.  That would be a reasonable test.

[DJLegba]

I never got the WDM driver to work without clicks and pops, but I haven't used it for the past several versions so it has probably been improved. From the Wiki:

Clicks, pops, and static are typically caused by buffer underruns. Because the WDM Driver is re-routing sound in real time, it is more sensitive to buffering settings than normal audio playback. There are two buffers that are important to WDM performance:

    The output buffer, found at Options-->Audio-->Device Settings, and
    The input buffer, found at Options-->Audio-->Advanced-->Live Playback Latency

If you are experiencing clicks and pops, try different combinations of settings with these two buffers. It is important to note that a larger buffer will not necessarily work better. Different hardware configurations work best with different combinations of settings, so try different combinations large and small until you find settings that resolve your issue.

[dtc]

The WDM was fixed for high sample rates with 24.0.46 in August 2018.  That fixed the vast majority of WDM problems. However, there are still sporadic reports of clicks and pops when playing higher sample rates.  Buffering can help, but it does not always totally fix the problem.  My experience is that it can occur when there are rapid changes  between tracks, especially with high sample rate tracks.

[RoderickGI]

Every installation is different, but I got rid of stuttering and any clicks and pops test playing from Foobar > WDM > MC by;

Selecting Sox Resampling
Setting "Options > Audio > Device Settings > Buffering" to Minimum Hardware Size
Setting "Options > Audio > Advanced > Live Playback Latency" to 10ms, which is one step above "Minimum"

That is just playing to my speakers on my Workstation.

MagnusH, you are already using SoX according to your first post. So try minimum or near minimum settings as per above. Maybe also confirm SoX is selected.

Of course, YMMV.


We have so many of these sorts of threads. It would be great if there was a tool to solve these sorts of issues. Something like the madVR Ctrl-J Queue visibility perhaps, for audio buffers?

[MagnusH]

Cheers, that solved it. I had only tried to increase the buffers :-)

[MagnusH]

For anyone else that has this issue: in Roon, there is a "Resync delay" which adds silence whenever a format switch is done (I have mine at 2000 ms), which works wonder for this issue. So yes, the delay between 2 songs with different sample rates becomes a little longer, but no stuttering or pops. And between songs that has same sample rate, no silence is added.