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Author Topic: Hiccups after upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909  (Read 4750 times)

DallasNights

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Hiccups after upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909
« on: February 19, 2020, 02:39:34 pm »

After upgrading my laptop from Window 8.1 to the latest Windows 10 v 1909, I have experienced occasional "hiccups" (once or twice during album playback).  I increased my buffer time from zero to max, with no positive affect.  My connection to my Cambridge CXN pre amp is via USB 3.0.  I researched driver issues for USB related problems with the Windows 1909, but found nothing to shed any light on the problem.  Also made sure all the USB drivers are up to date and they are.  Maybe I am chasing down the wrong path for a solution.  Cannot seem to resolve these occasional "skips".  If not a buffering issue, then what else could alleviate this problem? William
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JimH

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Re: Hiccups after upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2020, 02:48:23 pm »

Take a look at the Windows Defender thread here.
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DallasNights

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Re: Hiccups after upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2020, 04:03:50 pm »

thanks for the tip.  Had already read through the Windows Defender threads.  However, nothing there seems to address this irritating issue.  Thanks again anyway.
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JimH

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Re: Hiccups after upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2020, 04:42:24 pm »

Make sure you follow the advice there.  Read carefully.
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RoderickGI

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Re: Hiccups after upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2020, 04:59:52 pm »

A buffer of zero or max can cause hiccups. Did you try intermediate buffer sizes? You need to find the sweet spot for your particular hardware and environment. Windows 10 changed a lot of stuff related to audio, so the best buffer settings may have changed.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

DallasNights

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Re: Hiccups after upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2020, 08:47:23 pm »

Moved some of my settings under Tools>Options back to "normal/recommended" levels including the 6 sec pre-buffering and also delay latency.  Because the blip, hiccup, skip, what have you is so infrequent, I am now listening over the next few days to detect the issue again.  If I find it to be resolved, will let you know.  BTW, I also double checked every sound related driver update and so on.  As for JimH, well I can't really locate a specific Defender related complaint that matches with my issue, but keep an open mind.  Having a tighter reference point or hyperlink would be helpful if there is something more specific I can read about.  Cheers...
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JimH

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Re: Hiccups after upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2020, 07:26:11 am »

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DallasNights

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Re: Hiccups after upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2020, 04:03:45 pm »

Hi Jim, Did as you instructed and read through the entire thread to become fully familiar with the procedure.  However, after navigating thru to Virus and Threat Protection Settings for Window Defender Antivirus, I encountered a roadblock to access the next step.  There is no option to Add or Remove Exclusions because Norton Antivirus is turned on and Windows Defender is turned off.  Always has been that way.  So...either I turn on Defender in order to complete the steps to add the folders to be excluded or I consider that with Defender already off, that Defender is not the source of the interference.  Yes, my Defender periodic scanning is also off.  But the Defender firewalls are on.  From what I read, I should leave the firewalls as they are.  Also attempted to locate the "Manage Settings" link to get to Exclusions --Add or Remove, but is not available.  If Defender is already off, would it still be a source of my "playback skips"?  If yes, even in the off setting, then should I turn it on in order to complete the process?  Thanks for your kind advice.
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RoderickGI

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Re: Hiccups after upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2020, 07:06:01 pm »

If you have Norton Antivirus, then ignore Windows Defender Antivirus, use what you learned from reading that thread, and apply the same concepts in Norton Antivirus.

I use the latest (new) Norton 360, which includes Antivirus and Firewall, so all my settings are in Norton. Do you have Norton Firewall as well?

Windows Defender does actually still operate to some degree when you use a third-party security application, as we do. For example, when you boot up the PC it is Windows Defender that does the protection until Norton loads up and Windows Defender passes off the protection responsibility to Norton. That can be confusing, and annoying, at times, because you might see a message from Windows Defender when Norton should be doing the protection.

Regardless, as you are using Norton, do not turn on Windows Defender Antivirus. If you are using Norton 360 which includes a Firewall, do not turn on Windows Defender Firewall.

Do add or check the exclusions in Norton Antivirus and Firewall as per that thread.


Norton has pretty good Help, Manuals, and User Support. Use them.


Also, even though you have just updated, run Windows Update again, once or twice, and reboot the PC after each update. Reboot twice after the final update. That allows Windows 10 to complete all updates and check if anything further needs to be updated. It may be overkill, but I find it fixes some issues sometimes.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

DallasNights

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Re: Hiccups after upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2020, 11:57:45 pm »

One question, if the problem was created by upgrading from Windows 8.1 to Windows 10 and started right after, then that implies the issue is with Windows interface to JRiver MC 22 (my version).  Why would Norton be involved with the problem, if adding the exclusions for MC folders have the purpose of avoiding Windows Defender?  Are you saying that Norton somehow amplifies Window 10 virus protection issues that interfere with MC22?  BTW, I only use my laptop as the primary transport for music to my stereo system and no other media.
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JimH

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Re: Hiccups after upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2020, 05:39:24 am »

Uninstall Norton to see. 
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DallasNights

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Re: Hiccups after upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2020, 11:45:27 am »

Okay, so l went to Google and typed in Norton antivirus add an exclusion.  It brought up a plethora of screen shots to guide the user much as laid out by AwesomeDonkey.  So, instead of uninstalling Norton, I went by the easy to follow guidelines under Scans and Risks and added two major folders (MC 22 and My Music) (no specific files added) to the Scan Exclusions List and also to the Items to Exclude from Auto Protect, SONAR, and Download Intelligence Detection List.  After adding those, I went back to Settings>Antivirus>Updates and disabled Automatic Live Updates by changing to Permanent.  Changed it to Updates Only Upon Reboot.  Also I went into automatic Tasks Scheduling under Settings and changed that setting to weekly and designated a date and time for tasks to be run. 

I play a series of albums from my library and hear the blip (skip, hiccup) about once an album.  Now, after these edits, I am back to testing mode and listening to see if I can detect the issue.  So I will see if this solves the issue and I will keep you informed.  Any comments or further suggestions are appreciated.

A sidenote issue may be of interest regarding Windows 10 driver update issues related to Intel Graphics drivers and audio playback.  See: https://www.howtogeek.com/658676/windows-10s-buggy-hardware-driver-updates-are-being-fixed/
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RoderickGI

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Re: Hiccups after upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2020, 03:47:00 pm »

Windows 10 amplifies all security issues.

There have been a lot of changes to MC since version 22, and a lot of fixes to problems caused by Windows 10 updates. Most have been in the video and TV areas, but there are probably a bunch in the audio area as well.

While I suspect your buffer settings are the issue, as mentioned earlier, I think it wouldn't hurt to upgrade to MC26. Or at least trial MC26 to see if the issue is fixed.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

Awesome Donkey

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Re: Hiccups after upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2020, 08:27:47 am »

Seems odd that it'd happen after doing a Windows 10 update, which honestly sounds like the issue(s) were caused by the update too.

I agree with RoderickGI, give MC26 a try to see if the issue still exists. If not, it could indeed be a problem with newer Windows 10 versions running older MC versions.
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Windows 11 2024 Update (24H2) 64-bit + Ubuntu 24.04 LTS Noble Numbat 64-bit | Windows 11 2024 Update (24H2) 64-bit (Intel N305 Fanless NUC 32GB RAM/500GB M.2 NVMe SSD)
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DallasNights

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Re: Hiccups after upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2020, 12:46:07 pm »

So I am prepared to follow your advice and upgrade MC 22 to MC 26.  I went through the upgrade threads and saw some different prices.  What is the discounted price amount?  Do I need to be in version MC25 first to perform the upgrade to MC 26?  From the threads, that seems to be the case, but I hope I am wrong about that.  Can you please provide me a hyperlink here to upgrade to MC 26 from my version?  Thanks and hope this will solve my hiccups.
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JimH

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DallasNights

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Re: Hiccups after upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2020, 12:55:16 pm »

That is the thread that I already read through.  I don't want the inconvenience of dealing with a 30 trial run and have it expire and create a problem as it did for other subscribers.  I just want to upgrade to MC 26.  If you don't want to publish the discount price to me, fine.  But just sending me a thread without answering my questions was not very good customer service.  I went to the page on this link https://www.jriver.com/purchase.html
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JimH

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Re: Hiccups after upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2020, 01:10:31 pm »

That is the process.  It's the only way.  The download is a trial version until it's licensed.  It's the same file.

The price is on that page.

There's nothing I can tell you that isn't there.
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DallasNights

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Re: Hiccups after upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2020, 01:51:10 pm »

Hello Jim,
I made the purchase of MC 26 and download successfully.  Found the buffering setting feature under Tools>Options>Devices.  Wow, it allows from zero (0.05 mlsec) all the way up to 3 seconds. I left the setting at most responsive first, to see if the problem persists.  Then I have a wide buffering range to experiment with.  Hopefully the upgrade won't require further adjustments. I will let you know if this has solved my hiccup problem. 
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Awesome Donkey

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Re: Hiccups after upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2020, 02:19:34 pm »

Restore the license you just upgraded to (you can get it from the email you receive after doing the upgrade).
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I don't work for JRiver... I help keep the forums safe from Viagra and other sources of sketchy pharmaceuticals.

Windows 11 2024 Update (24H2) 64-bit + Ubuntu 24.04 LTS Noble Numbat 64-bit | Windows 11 2024 Update (24H2) 64-bit (Intel N305 Fanless NUC 32GB RAM/500GB M.2 NVMe SSD)
JRiver Media Center 32 (Windows + Linux) | iFi ZEN DAC 3 | JBL 306P MkII Studio Monitors | Audio-Technica ATH-M50x Headphones

DallasNights

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Re: Hiccups after upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2020, 03:59:41 pm »

Thanks, all registered now.  Side question:  Is there a way to hide or delete the Start Tab that displays when MC 26 first opens?
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JimH

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Re: Hiccups after upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2020, 04:08:16 pm »

Try the options for Startup.
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DallasNights

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Re: Hiccups after upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2020, 04:21:08 pm »

Got it, thanks Jim.
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DallasNights

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Re: Hiccups after upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2020, 04:46:07 pm »

Discovered that upon opening the new MC 26, the Audio Device defaulted to Direct Sound.  Therefore, the allowable range slider for buffering goes from .05 milliseconds up to 3 seconds but is only available in that selection.  I have a Cambridge CXN preamp and use the WASAPI selection related to that device.  So I am back to the eight choices from "Minimum Hardware Size, or from 5 milliseconds up to 500 milliseconds buffering.  Still seem to have the occasional skip, so I just maxed it out at 500.  At least the skips are shorter and less noticeable.  No sweet spots detectable.  Well, cheers anyway.
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JimH

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Re: Hiccups after upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2020, 05:06:05 pm »

Did you try uninstalling Norton?
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DallasNights

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Re: Hiccups after upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2020, 05:12:52 pm »

I will check on the Norton uninstall, it is subscribed through my Centurylink internet service as part of that package.  I assume there would be a reinstall after the initial uninstall.  Otherwise is a nonstarter.  Thanks
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JimH

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Re: Hiccups after upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2020, 05:17:34 pm »

Take a look through the thread we keep on antivirus problems:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=86096.msg588759#msg588759

Norton makes many appearances there.  Try a search.   You'll find about 10 problems caused by Norton.  Properly configured, it might work fine.
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DallasNights

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Re: Hiccups after upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2020, 06:45:57 pm »

Okay, I uninstalled Norton Antivirus Online from my laptop.  I use my desktop for most everything else except Spotify.  Anyway, I reset the buffer to the recommended 100 ms.  Still after only 10 minutes playtime, got the skip.  A bit more pronounced than at 500 ms, but it was there again.  So I think perhaps we can rule out Norton as a source.  Wish this wasn't such a head scratcher.  Now I will admit my firewall is Windows Defender, but only the firewall.  A little nervous to bring down the firewall, but suppose I could.  Maybe I will reinstall Norton and then could disable the firewall temporarily.  What do you think?
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JimH

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Re: Hiccups after upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2020, 10:04:16 pm »

Now configure Windows Defender.
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DallasNights

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Re: Hiccups after upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2020, 11:44:55 am »

I went a little crazy and turned off the Windows Defender Firewall for about an hour.  No skips.  Okay, then turned it back on and went into Allow apps or Features through the Firewall.  Long list and oddly, MC 22 showed up and neither Private nor Public box were checked to allow them through the firewall.  So I checked those, then went to "Add an App" and browsed to MC 26 installed yesterday and added that.  Checked both boxes to allow it through the firewall.  Have been listening to Mozart for about 40 minutes so far since it is easy to detect any skips or hiccups. Also reset the buffer to the recommended 100ms.  Again nothing so far,  I will continue with this test to insure the problem is fully resolved.  If this works, all I can say is it's Murphy's Law except that nothing is going wrong.  I will get back in a few days and hopefully not sooner to verify this was the solution all along.
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DallasNights

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Re: Hiccups after upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2020, 10:52:32 am »

After a day and a half of solid listening to various artists, I can now safely conclude that the hiccups are gone!!  The process of elimination led to the final option and that source of the problem is Windows Defender and its firewall.  I have left my buffer setting at the recommended level of 100ms.  My pc protection is hybrid in that the basic Norton package does not offer a firewall feature.  Norton 360 does, but who wants to pay extra. 

So, I want to thank the advisors at JRiver for their patience in helping to resolve this.  The side benefit of this experience was that I read so much on this Forum that I have switched my player output control from System to Internal and even with my higher end equipment, have demonstrated a marked improvement in sonic clarity and depth.  All volume settings disabled except maximize device volume.  But that is a story for a different thread.  It is clear that Windows Defender needs to allow MC to be on the exception list to bypass both its firewall and virus protection.  I think someone at JRiver should send a message to Microsoft and bring attention to this.  After all, we have another Windows 10 update in May.
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