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[aussie1]

What lossless music formats do people recommend?
What settings/plug-ins do I need to rip to these formats using MC?
Can these files be tagged with all the artist information?

Thanks!



PS: The Stanford Bus School sponsored a fascinating full day conference on the future of media and entertainment a few weeks ago. One speaker was the head of Sony Music. He made a lot of interesting points. A few are:

1. The online music phenom has spawned a generation of music listeners in their teens and 20s (The largest segment of buyers) who expect music to be free. Therefore, the price point will never go back to where it was. But the current situation is not sustainable because there is a cost to create, produce, market, and distribute music which must be recovered.  (My editorical comment is that the music oligopoly was overcharging, particularly overseas, and had an ineffecient distribution system. They certainly deserve compensation, but not the monopoly rents they were extracting.)

2. More interesting: Most listeners now use MP3s or other lossy formats which contain inferior sound to what you get on a CD.  This means that the consumer has come to accept an inferior quality product, again eroding the pricepoint. (My reaction is that this represents a marketing opportunity for the music companies. If they pitched the quality angle, then they might be able to sustain a slightly higher pricepoint for some product. Besides, the biggest factor for sound is still the quality of the speakers.)

[PhatPhreddy]

APE first and foremost (especially with MC)

FLAC
Shorten
WMA Pro Lossless...

Even though WMA is a bit odd in that its lossless is not lossless at default settings (it performs some normalization etc prior to encode) it is actually one hell of a format allowing for 8ch at 24 / 96 !!

I am really starting to warm up to WMV and WMA for 5.1 and HD encoding...

As to your other points I agree wholeheartedly... Tough to compete with free though !!! This in itself shows a pretty rough future for the media biz's of tomorrow...

[rocketsauce]

I think your choice is pretty much going to be Monkey's Audio (.ape) since I don't believe there are any plug-ins for the other formats (FLAC, Shn, Wavpack, etc) that work in MC. However, I don't know if WMA Lossless plays in MC, since I haven't used it.

Rob

[zevele10]

If you ,i will go for APE  who has all the tags possibily.
Again ,SHN IS NOT really a musical format and does not sound good.
See it like the best way to zip music in a lossless format.

And i do think that MC NEEDS to have SHN and FLAC plugings.
This formats are used by the most powerfull users.
The ones who would adopt MC if this plugings presents

[MachineHead]

What lossless music formats do people recommend?
What settings/plug-ins do I need to rip to these formats using MC?
Can these files be tagged with all the artist information?

Monkey's Audio - APE. Settings are kind of personal preference. Depends on how much compression you want. And to some extent, how much cpu horsepower you need to leave for playback. Most of the newer processors can handle any setting without much strain though. And yes they can be tagged. Look for the plug-in on the encoder page. Link at top of the screen.

1. The online music phenom has spawned a generation of music listeners in their teens and 20s (The largest segment of buyers) who expect music to be free.

Is this a trick question/point of view? Seems like an oxy-moron if they want music to be free and they are the largest segment who buys.

2. More interesting: Most listeners now use MP3s or other lossy formats which contain inferior sound to what you get on a CD.  This means that the consumer has come to accept an inferior quality product, again eroding the pricepoint. (My reaction is that this represents a marketing opportunity for the music companies. If they pitched the quality angle, then they might be able to sustain a slightly higher pricepoint for some product. Besides, the biggest factor for sound is still the quality of the speakers.)

BLEH! Music companies are putting out horseshit recordings to begin with. Some new cds are mixed so badly, you can't even crank the volume without severe distortion.

Case in point:

Just bought the new Audioslave - Audioslave cd today. This is almost as bad as Incubus - Morning View, if not worse. I also got a copy of Roxy Music - The Best Of. This one I can play much louder then the headbanger cd!!

Probably a scam to get everyone to go for the more expensive, and tougher to copy SACD's.

[zevele10]

You mean you play it in your car?
I have the Audioslave and did not find the sound bad.

And ,as you know ,my amp has only  volume level 8-9-10

The amp with a volume level starting at 1 was much much more expensive...
Beside it ,look like you are listening much to much to noisy music...no good my friend... do like me ,have break and listen  to some easy listening music................

.Listening to: 'DownStroy' from '3 + 4' by 'Soulfly' on Media Center 9.0 .. at volume 3+4 by the way....

[DocLotus]

Many Americans will have partial hearing loss by the time they are 40 or 50 due to the excessively load Rap, Crap & other junk that a lot of younger people listen to at excessively load volumes.

It's the hearing loss law... dB x time = hearing loss.

Only 85 dB for a long time can = hearing loss.
115 dB for a short time can almost guarantee instant hearing loss.

Why is it some Americans drive around with the car windows open so we all can hear that crap?

One word... KEEP IT TO YOURSELF!

[zevele10]

I am almost 52.
Started to play music loud when i was 13
Played in -very bad- bands
going to punk and metal concerts 5 or more times a month
going to concerts since i am 14-15 ,thousand times i mean.
And my hearing is still very very good.

In my job ,i have a total killer: i hear bugs in the wood , in frames of the doors, od furnitures  and so on. Just by standing in the room.
Look like there is a life when listening loud...

[whoeveryouare]

Like just about everyone else, I'd recommend Monkey's Audio, particularly if you are going to use Media Jukebox or Media Center.  You don't need any additional plugins to encode to Monkey's Audio using Media Center--it's included by default.

I personally use "High" compression mode for Monkey's Audio, and I would generally recommend either that or "Normal" (you can always change compression modes after the fact).

I strongly prefer to rip using either Exact Audio Copy (http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/) or Media Center's "Digital Secure" setting.  When I ripped my 200-CD collection, I was interested to see many read errors occur, despite the fact that I have top-quality drives, with top-rated DAE, and all of my CDs were in clean, pristine condition.  Those read errors would probably have been undetectable for the most part, but ripping is such a hassle I'd rather not gamble.

Here are a couple web pages with comparisons of various lossless formats.  I can't vouch for their accuracy or content.  My own inclination is very strongly against the use of Windows Media, for various obvious and not-so-obvious reasons.

One grudging vote in favor of Windows Media is that it is much more likely to win hardware support.  However, this makes no difference to me.  I'd rather use Monkey's Audio and convert files as needed, than use Windows Media exclusively (This is what I do now with Monkey's Audio and my MP3 player).  But that's me.

http://www.lossless-audio.com/comparison/

http://home.wanadoo.nl/~w.speek/comparison.htm

[whoeveryouare]

BLEH! Music companies are putting out horsenuts recordings to begin with. Some new cds are mixed so badly, you can't even crank the volume without severe distortion.  

Case in point:  

Just bought the new Audioslave - Audioslave cd today. This is almost as bad as Incubus - Morning View, if not worse.

I thought you were nuts, but then I checked myself...  I have every album Incubus has released, and I have ripped and encoded them all in exactly the same manner.

And having just listened to samples from each of them using a pair of Sennheiser HD-600 headphones fed through a decent headphone amplifier, I can honestly say that Morning View very much does sound much worse than the others.  When I compare it to S.C.I.E.N.C.E., the difference is quite staggering.

I don't know what it is...  It sounds as if it's mixed like utter crap.  It really is horrible!  I had never before listened to the album closely enough to notice.  Damn them.

[happy5]

I have to say APE format is the best and most secure way to go... just make sure you have tons of hard drive space, processor power and a good sound card (not to mention speakers).

Changing subjects a bit... what other non-lossless formats would the dear and revered administrators recommend?

I favor VBR MP3 vs standard 320 MP3's (there's not much compression and / or sound quality improvement after a 200 bitrate in my opinion) but Ogg Orbis sounds good. I have an iRiver Slim X and it doesn't support Ogg Vorbis though. Any other formats you think I should try?

PS. Forget Incubus. I listen to a lot of classical, jazz and Latin music (I'm Latin) but I got the Evanescence CD and the sound is absolutely pristine.

[whoeveryouare]

PS. Forget Incubus. I listen to a lot of classical, jazz and Latin music (I'm Latin) but I got the Evanescence CD and the sound is absolutely pristine.

To be clear, the problem isn't the band, Incubus, but rather the way the recording was produced.

[MachineHead]

I thought you were nuts, but then I checked myself...

heh heh heh

I might have bad taste in music, but I can still pick out a rotten mix. Try this if you have it, listen to Shaman, or Supernatural from Santana. These two cd's are LOUD, but do not distort at all.

I would like to think that Mr. Santana listens to his own recordings from time to time, and doesn't want to hear a gutterbag mix of his own stuff.

[Charlemagne 8]

And ,as you know ,my amp has only  volume level 8-9-10

Remember Spinal Tap? "Man! This amp goes up to ELEVEN!!!"

I am almost 52.

That is truly old. Ancient.

When I was 40, I made my wife put "Lordy, Lordy, Look Who's Forty" with my one-year old picture. Corny? You bet but it was MY birthday.

When I'm 55 (not too long, now) I will request "Fifty-five and STILL ALIVE!" Still corny, I know. But I'm a corny guy.

Back on topic:

APE is the best way to go especially if you like MC9 or even MJ8. It works and there's a resident expert.
The beauty part about any lossless encoder is that you can always try different ones without any loss.

CVIII

[JimH]

Will you still need me?
Will you still feed me?
When I'm 64.

[whoeveryouare]

[Monkey's Audio works and] there's a resident expert.

That's for sure (I'm pretty sure Matt could be called a "Monkey's Audio expert"  )!  An excellent point.

Sorry, I know this post wasn't worth the email notification some people got for it.  

[Warlock]

It would be nice, however, if MC supported FLAC files.  Compared to APE, which I use extensively and I am very happy with, FLAC is less processor intensive when decoding.  I have an old laptop I am converting to be a media pc (attached to my stereo and linked via WiFi to a home server) and the level of cpu utilization can be an issue at times.  

I don't think you can go wrong with using Monkey's Audio in any event, but it would be a big plus if MC supported some of the other lossless formats as well.

[JimH]

Are you using APE set to "normal"?  Some settings try to compress a little more and will use the CPU more.

I believe users have reported success using Winamp FLAC plug-ins for playback.  For encoding, you could use the external encoder plug-in and a stand-alone FLAC program.

A search here might provide more info.

[aussie1]

Thanks everyone....very helpful.

[TimB]

I'm a feature twiddler.  After living with MP3 -alt preset fast exteme for several weeks I'm trying out APE Extra High.  

-=Tim=-

[whoeveryouare]

I'm a feature twiddler.  After living with MP3 -alt preset fast exteme for several weeks I'm trying out APE Extra High.  

APE Extra High sounds identical to all other APE compression schemes.  Just in case you didn't know.  

(Waiting for someone to point out higher CPU usage with Extra High, and potential skipping, and concluding that it thus does not necessarily "sound identical".)

[daven]

outside of media center circles shn is the most popular lossless format, mostly because it has been around the longest and is cross-platform.  i don't know why zevele insists it is not designed for audio.  my experience has been that ape gets about 10% better compression than shorten which is nice, but not worth converting an entire collection since most of the lossless music out there is shn'd.

since source code for both flac and shn is available i don't understand how jim can blame their respective developers for failing to support media center.  i am beginning to think that in this case, mc is more interested in stifling ape's competition than supporting user's needs.

[TimB]

APE Extra High sounds identical to all other APE compression schemes.  Just in case you didn't know.  

I think I understand this, but I've got a fairly fast machine that I generally don't run that heavily.

(Waiting for someone to point out higher CPU usage with Extra High, and potential skipping, and concluding that it thus does not necessarily "sound identical".)

I'd assumed I'd get a little more compression with no risk to actual quality, is this incorrect?  I'm running "Digital Secure"

-=Tim=-

[rocketsauce]

I believe users have reported success using Winamp FLAC plug-ins for playback.

You can install the Winamp 2.xx FLAC plugin in MC, but FLAC doesn't show up in the file types list on the Import dialog. You can import the files from Windows Explorer, though.

The other problem is tagging FLACs. You can add info using the Properties dialog, but the info is only saved in the MC library and not saved to the actual tag.

Another good reason to have an official FLAC plugin is that it is currently the only lossless format to have hardware player support.

I'm sure someone will write a plugin eventually.

I'd assumed I'd get a little more compression with no risk to actual quality, is this incorrect?

You are correct. All compression levels are lossless. The main reason that most people use Normal or High is that there is a significant jump in the time and processor power needed to encode/decode at Extra High, but only a minimal gain in the rate of compression.

Rob

[zevele10]

i don't know why zevele insists it is not designed for audio

Well ,it is not what i really mean.
According to many places dealing with SHN , they say that it is more a way to zip that a proper musical format.
A do find that APE sound better.
But ,as you know , it can be because i saw it on the weeb.

Until now ,i convert SHN to WAV with a program - tis is very very fast- and after i convert to the format i want.

I saw that DBpowerAmp has now full SHN compatibility : encode ,decode and - if i am not wrong- play.
I have to give a look.

Anyway ,as i said many times : MC try to get powerfull users and people using SHN and FLAC ARE powerfull users.
So there is a need for pluging. If not a full one [ convert- encode ] minimum  a pluging allowing to play this formats in MC.
Because for powerfull users , MC DOES NOT play all

[salsbst1]

ShnAmp 2.02 for WinAmp 2 ( http://www.etree.org/shnamp.html ) is working for me in MC9 build 161.  Not sure if this is news to anyone, but from what I can tell it is.... last I can tell it wasn't working in build 159.

As stated before, MC9 won't import shn files from its internal import menu but you can import them from the Windows Explorer extension.

The first time I tried to play the file, it just said "Buffering" (for longer than I had patience... 10 seconds or so).... so I stopped it, hunted around for a moment, then clicked the play button and it started up!

[daven]

i still cannot get the shnamp plugin to work.  it sits there buffering and then ends up crashing media core.

i do think it is a shame that a high-end media player makes shn support such a low priority.  that is 15,000 etree users who will never give this software a try.