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[mikemcsw]

It took me awhile, but i am now able to play DSD files from my dlna server (minimserver) to my Marantz receiver.
Sounds super!

But the method i want to use is to play from my LOCAL hard drive to my Marantz receiver.

If i can play DSD from network to my marantz, i "should" be able to play from my local hard drive over the network to my marantz receiver??

I can hear it, but it sounds like hiss, static, white noise...

[RoderickGI]

Whitenoise typically means that your receiver is trying to play PCM, when MC is sending and the receiver should be trying to play DSD in DoP. DoP being DSD over PCM.

Set your receiver to play DoP, if it can. Or send Native DSD to it, if it can play that.

But I get DSD and DoP wrong often, so search the forum for "white noise" and DSD, and start reading.

[mikemcsw]

Whitenoise typically means that your receiver is trying to play PCM, when MC is sending and the receiver should be trying to play DSD in DoP. DoP being DSD over PCM.

Set your receiver to play DoP, if it can. Or send Native DSD to it, if it can play that.

But I get DSD and DoP wrong often, so search the forum for "white noise" and DSD, and start reading.

like i said, i can play dsd to it perfectly from minimserver.

i am talking native dsd file.

example, if i play chet baker native dsd file from minimserver it plays fine
if i do not change anything but except changing from minimserver to local computer and play the same song it gives me hiss.

that tells me that the receiver is capable of playing native dsd over the network.
the only thing i am changing is from dlna server to local hard drive.

[RoderickGI]

Like I said, I'm not an expert, so search and read.

But it sounds like MC is sending DSD in DoP to you receiver, which is trying to play PCM. Check you settings in MC. Specifically, probably the "Output Encoding" in the "DSP and output format" section of the Audio Options.

Just because the source file is a Native DSD file (it has to be, really, files aren't stored in DoP, they are converted to DoP for playback), doesn't mean that Native DSD is being sent to your receiver.
What does the receiver say it is receiving? DSD Native, DoP, or PCM?
What is set in the Minimserver for DSD? It may have been sending Native DSD, or it may have been sending DoP. Just because it played, doesn't mean the receiver was or can play Native DSD.
Were you using MC as the DLNA Control Point to send audio from the Minimserver to the receiver?


What is the receiver model?

[mikemcsw]

the receiver is an sr6013..it can play native dsd.

i have a hard time finding dsp options.
when i click dsp options it says dsp options only available on local.

the source files are local, but it is playing to zone "den" which is the marantz receiver.

i am still looking...

[mikemcsw]

i found dsp studio and tried a few things there, but still just getting hiss.

dsp studio was buried pretty deep:

Tools | Options | media network | add or configure DLNA servers | audio | advanced | dsp studio

everything was unchecked....but these same settings seem to work when using minimserver vs local hard drive.

I even tried telling it to use DSD in DoP format but that still gave white noise/hiss

[mikemcsw]

still have not been able to get it to work...but maybe the problem is that the marantz is able to play native dsd via dlna, but that jriver is using some other protocol when it streams the music from the local hard drive to the marantz receiver?

how exactly does jriver send music over the network to the marantz reciever from the local hard drive if i did not configure a dlna server on this computer?  (e.g. i can play flac files on the local hd to the marantz without any problem).

I am just trying to get the files from the local hard drive to the marantz without having to have a dlna server?

It is playing flac files fine, so how exactly does jriver send the files to the marantz for flac files if i did not configure the pc to be a dlna server for the flac files?

[mikemcsw]

Also i know the marantz is playing native dsd via minimserver because the file is a dsf file and for the dlna settings i have audio mode set to "original". which doesn't allow any modfication of the original file, and the marantz plays it fine.

It is only when i try to play from the local hard drive to the marantz that i get the "HISS".

i want my library to be on local hard drive without using minimserver and still be able to play both flac and dsd files.

ANYONE???

[RoderickGI]

Ah, I should have realised that you are still playing to the Marantz via DLNA, and you are just using local files, but the Marantz is remote, and not connected via HDMI, or USB (bit it looks like the SR6013 only has a USB input on the front panel, not suitable for connection from a PC).

Are you running MC on a Mac or a PC? This is very important.

Okay, so you are using a MC DLNA Server then. You said that you have audio mode set to "original" when using the Miinimserver, but what about when you are using the MC Server? Specifically, do you have "Original" selected in "Options > Media Network > Add or configure DLNA server > {select the DLNA Server that you are using} > Audio > Mode > Original"?

Because that is the setting that tells the MC DLNA Server to send the DSF file in original format (DSD Native) to the Marantz SR6013, which should then play it fine. I think.

Do you only have one DLNA Server set up in MC?
If not, have you associated the correct DLNA Server with the Marantz DLNA Renderer?

[mikemcsw]

i do not have dlna server set up on the mc pc.  The only "dlna server" i have setup is minimserver. (at least to my knowledge)

i am either playing FROM:
minimserver - works for both flac and dsd
or
llocal drive (e:\music) - works for flac, but only get hiss for dsd

in both cases it is playing to
marantz - associated to dlna generic (which i have set to orginal mode)

[JimH]

Setting conversion in MC won't affect what minimserver does.

And DSD isn't normally a supported format for DLNA.

If you haven't done so, check with Marantz on how to setup playback for DSD.

[mikemcsw]

I finally figured it out from a previous posting by someone else that had the same problem.

BITSTREAM DSD must be UNCHECKED

i would have never guessed that..this label should be changed to bitstream dsd via dope since we are bitstreaming dsd natively.

[mikemcsw]

Setting conversion in MC won't affect what minimserver does.

And DSD isn't normally a supported format for DLNA.

If you haven't done so, check with Marantz on how to setup playback for DSD.

i have been playing dsd via dlna for over 5 years, so there is a lot of support for it.
I found the probem.  I had a box checked that said bistream dsd.
The box should be changed to read bitstream dsd via dope (will cause hiss if you are trying to bitstream dsd natively)

so my final settings for the marantz DLNA is
mode:normal (e.g. no changes)
and
bitstream dsd unchecked


I found the answer in a previous posting by poster sounerfan in 2018 (the MC beta team also responded that it sounded counter intuitive)

look at last 2 postings here:

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=114217.0

Suggest in next release you change the option that states:
Bitstream DSD (requires DOPE compliant renderer)
to
Bitstream DSD via DOPE (will cause hiss/white noise static if you are trying to bitstream DSD natively.

[RoderickGI]

i do not have dlna server set up on the mc pc.  The only "dlna server" i have setup is minimserver. (at least to my knowledge)

Well that is where you are wrong, and what I was trying to get you to understand, without writing a long post you would ignore.

You are running a DLNA Server in MC, of course, as that is the only way you can play from MC to a DLNA Renderer, which is what your Marantz SR6013 is acting as.

Just take a look at the dialogue where you found the "Bitstream DSD (requires DOPE compliant renderer)" setting, as per attached image. It says DLNA Server all over it! You even had to select the "Add or configure DLNA Servers" menu option in "Options > Media Network" to get to that setting!

Had you confirmed that you were changing settings in the correct DLNA dialogue, I would have told you to turn off the "Bitstream DSD (requires DOPE compliant renderer)" setting.

So my first reply to you was correct.

Whitenoise typically means that your receiver is trying to play PCM, when MC is sending and the receiver should be trying to play DSD in DoP. DoP being DSD over PCM.

[dtc]

By design, DoP plays as low level white noise if the DAC does not understand DoP.  That is to insure that  a high level signal does not accidentally get sent to the speakers.  The DoP format has the 8 most significant PCM bits as an identifier that it is a DoP signal and those bits are set so it will play as low level white noise if the DAC does not recognize them.

The Bitstream DSD check box clearly says it is for DoPE capable renders only.  If any addition should be added it might be "Uncheck for sending native DSD sample rates" or something like that.  But, it pretty straightforward that you should only check the box if you DAC accepts DoPE.  The common problem is that DACs that do not support DoP usually do not say that and some DACs that only support DoP do not say that either.  That's why it  sometimes requires a bit of trial and error.

Glad you got it working.

[mikemcsw]

Well that is where you are wrong, and what I was trying to get you to understand, without writing a long post you would ignore.

You are running a DLNA Server in MC, of course, as that is the only way you can play from MC to a DLNA Renderer, which is what your Marantz SR6013 is acting as.

Just take a look at the dialogue where you found the "Bitstream DSD (requires DOPE compliant renderer)" setting, as per attached image. It says DLNA Server all over it! You even had to select the "Add or configure DLNA Servers" menu option in "Options > Media Network" to get to that setting!

Had you confirmed that you were changing settings in the correct DLNA dialogue, I would have told you to turn off the "Bitstream DSD (requires DOPE compliant renderer)" setting.

So my first reply to you was correct.

You weren't reading (or the link to the other persons thread that had the same problem).
My Marantz was expecting DSD and was getting PCM.
Once i UNCHECKED Bitstream DSD, then it was getting DSD.
Read the link i sent, the other guy had the SAME problem.


look at last 2 postings here:

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=114217.0

[mikemcsw]

By design, DoP plays as low level white noise if the DAC does not understand DoP.  That is to insure that  a high level signal does not accidentally get sent to the speakers.  The DoP format has the 8 most significant PCM bits as an identifier that it is a DoP signal and those bits are set so it will play as low level white noise if the DAC does not recognize them.

The Bitstream DSD check box clearly says it is for DoPE capable renders only.  If any addition should be added it might be "Uncheck for sending native DSD sample rates" or something like that.  But, it pretty straightforward that you should only check the box if you DAC accepts DoPE.  The common problem is that DACs that do not support DoP usually do not say that and some DACs that only support DoP do not say that either.  That's why it  sometimes requires a bit of trial and error.

Glad you got it working.

It could be made clearer and actually literally it is incorrect.
I know it says in parenthesis (for dope), but without parenthesis it states bitstream DSD.
It would be more accurate to remove the parenthesis

Bitsream DSD via DOP

Thanks...yea, glad i got it working...even the other beta team poster from 2 years ago thought the wording was "counter-intuitive) read the link from 2018.

[RoderickGI]

Mike, you should read back through this thread.

Enjoy the music.

[dtc]

Thanks...yea, glad i got it working...even the other beta team poster from 2 years ago thought the wording was "counter-intuitive) read the link from 2018.

Please read that post carefully, including who posted it.

The current wording of the check box is actually very clear (requires DoPE complient renderer). As I said, the problem often is that you do not know if you have that or not.

[RoderickGI]

Please read that post carefully, including who posted it.

That gave me a chuckle. I nearly posted something similar. Well, I did I guess, suggesting Mike read back over the thread. 

[mikemcsw]

Please read that post carefully, including who posted it.

The current wording of the check box is actually very clear (requires DoPE complient renderer). As I said, the problem often is that you do not know if you have that or not.

The purpose in the english language for use of parenthesis is that it should read accurately without reading in what is in parenthesis...

Parentheses are used to enclose incidental or extra information and the sentence should read accurately without text in parenthesis.

I reiterate, it should read BITSREAM DSD VIA DOP NOT BITSTREAM DSD. 

I am BITSTREAMING DSD yet, I need to uncheck that box.

Whatever...It is working and i am bitstreaming native DSD even though the box is unchecked "BITSTREAM DSD"...and i suggest that the verbiage for the checkbox is changed to

BITSTREAM DSD via DOP

and put whatever you want in parenthesis, but right now it is worded inaccurately.

Whether you want to correct your inaccuracies is totally up to you, your team, and your desire to correct your inaccuracies.

[RoderickGI]

Bye bye Mike.

[mikemcsw]

Bye bye Mike.

ByeBye Roderick

[thecrow]

I have to agree with Mike.
When I first came across this it confused me too and I have seen it confuse many others since.
In fact trying to convince people all they need to do to make it work is untick the box that says Bitstream DSD is always a struggle.

[dtc]

I have to agree with Mike.
When I first came across this it confused me too and I have seen it confuse many others since.
In fact trying to convince people all they need to do to make it work is untick the box that says Bitstream DSD is always a struggle.

My guess is that it confused you because you did not know what DoPE was.   If you know what DoPE is and you know that your DAC does not support DoPE, then you would not check that box, assuming you actually read what was in parenthesis.  So, I guess a wording like Send DSD using DoPE might be better, but if the user does not know what DoPE is or whether the DAC supports it, then the user is still just guessing. How do you get around that?

[mikemcsw]

My guess is that it confused you because you did not know what DoPE was.   If you know what DoPE is and you know that your DAC does not support DoPE, then you would not check that box, assuming you actually read what was in parenthesis.  So, I guess a wording like Send DSD using DoPE might be better, but if the user does not know what DoPE is or whether the DAC supports it, then the user is still just guessing. How do you get around that?

That is not true...you could have a renderer that supports dop and still want to bitstream dsd natively and you would still have to uncheck the box stating bitstream dsd....if you guys don't understand the use of parenthesis then you shouldn't use them. 

If you understand the English language, you would know that anything in parenthesis is incidental and it should read factually even without the use of what is in parenthesis.

Again, it should read

Bitstream DSD via Dope (must have dope capable renderer)

By stating
Bitstream DSD (must have dope renderer) is inaccurate...if you don't get it, you need to go back to school.

[dtc]

That is not true...you could have a renderer that supports dop and still want to bitstream dsd natively and you would still have to uncheck the box stating bitstream dsd....if you guys don't understand the use of parenthesis then you shouldn't use them. 

If you understand the English language, you would know that anything in parenthesis is incidental and it should read factually even without the use of what is in parenthesis.

Again, it should read

Bitstream DSD via Dope (must have dope capable renderer)

By stating
Bitstream DSD (must have dope renderer) is inaccurate...if you don't get it, you need to go back to school.

I do not work for JRiver. I am a user who also volunteer's his time to help others. Same with Rod.

I do not believe that the fundamental problem here is the use of parentheses. Obviously, you do. But you have made your point, so let it be.

The insults do not help your cause.

[Awesome Donkey]

Note: I'm also a volunteer and I don't work for JRiver either.

I think the current wording is sufficient and it shouldn't be changed. Editing the DSD wiki article and adding a note and/or section about getting native DSD working over DLNA could be added - I think this is probably the way to go in this case. It should help clear things up regarding DoPE and native DSD over DLNA, otherwise I don't think it's a good idea to change the current wording of the DoPE option, as it's descriptive enough.

[mikemcsw]

Note: I'm also a volunteer and I don't work for JRiver either.

I think the current wording is sufficient and it shouldn't be changed. Editing the DSD wiki article and adding a note and/or section about getting native DSD working over DLNA could be added - I think this is probably the way to go in this case. It should help clear things up regarding DoPE and native DSD over DLNA, otherwise I don't think it's a good idea to change the current wording of the DoPE option, as it's descriptive enough.

then you don't understand the English language either.... I can't believe people don't understand the use of parenthesis... (duh)

it could say and still be accurate::
Bitstream DSD over DLNA (Requires DoPE Renderer)

but this is NOT accurate
Bitstream DSD (Requires Dope Renderer)

because there are still options Bitstream DSD over PCM and Bitstream DSD using ASIO both of which are bitstream DSD that DON'T require DoPE Renderer.

[Awesome Donkey]

then you don't understand the English language either....

No need to come off as insulting about it.

it could say and still be accurate::
Bitstream DSD over DLNA (Requires DoPE Renderer)

but this is NOT accurate
Bitstream DSD (Requires Dope Renderer)

Actually what is says is Bitstream DSD (requires DoPE compliant renderer). There's no reason to add ...over DLNA... to it because the setting is located in the DLNA server advanced settings already. There's no reason to add or change anything, it's fine as-is and there's certainly no reason to add ...over DLNA... to the wording.

So, I think it's fine. Adding notes about native DSD over DLNA (and maybe perhaps the FileAssociations.xml tweaks to get it working with some systems) could be added to the DSD section of the wiki, this is where it'd be most beneficial to users. But in all honesty adding ...over DLNA... to the wording makes it seems like people are too stupid to read/realize they're changing DLNA settings when it clearly is apparent the Bitstream DSD (requires DoPE compliant renderer) setting is in the advanced section of the DLNA server settings.

[thecrow]

My guess is that it confused you because you did not know what DoPE was.   If you know what DoPE is and you know that your DAC does not support DoPE, then you would not check that box, assuming you actually read what was in parenthesis.  So, I guess a wording like Send DSD using DoPE might be better, but if the user does not know what DoPE is or whether the DAC supports it, then the user is still just guessing. How do you get around that?

As long as we are accusing people of being insulting I found this reply from DTC very condescending and insulting. 

[dtc]

As long as we are accusing people of being insulting I found this reply from DTC very condescending and insulting.

Sorry about that. I made a guess as to why you and others had a problem with the wording. Maybe I was wrong. If so, just say so.

Please explain.

[mikemcsw]

No need to come off as insulting about it.

Actually what is says is Bitstream DSD (requires DoPE compliant renderer). There's no reason to add ...over DLNA... to it because the setting is located in the DLNA server advanced settings already. There's no reason to add or change anything, it's fine as-is and there's certainly no reason to add ...over DLNA... to the wording.

So, I think it's fine. Adding notes about native DSD over DLNA (and maybe perhaps the FileAssociations.xml tweaks to get it working with some systems) could be added to the DSD section of the wiki, this is where it'd be most beneficial to users. But in all honesty adding ...over DLNA... to the wording makes it seems like people are too stupid to read/realize they're changing DLNA settings when it clearly is apparent the Bitstream DSD (requires DoPE compliant renderer) setting is in the advanced section of the DLNA server settings.

What's rude is that certain individuals aren't reading what i am writing, which is proper use of parenthesis in the english language.  It is simply inaccurate the way it is written, and people don't understand that...and then people come in and state it is fine the way it is written...it's fine for people that don't care that it is inaccurate.

[Awesome Donkey]

What's rude is that certain individuals aren't reading what i am writing, which is proper use of parenthesis in the english language.  It is simply inaccurate the way it is written, and people don't understand that...and then people come in and state it is fine the way it is written...it's fine for people that don't care that it is inaccurate.

To be honest, having an attitude like this about it isn't helping your case any, in my opinion. If anything I wouldn't be surprised if this topic gets locked soon.

[thecrow]

As I recall the reference to DoPE in brackets has not always been there, it used to just say Bitstream DSD.
When I first tried to stream DSD over DLNA it did not work for me, while trying to figure out why I came across no other reference to DSD over DLNA so I assumed ticking the box was the only way to make it work.
Even with the new wording in brackets I did not know at the time if that was how my devices worked with DSD I just knew they supported DSD over DLNA.
It turns out the reason streaming DSD over DLNA was not working for me was because all my SACDs were stored as ISO files instead of individual DSF files and all my devices support native DSD not DoPE. Once I knew I had to split my ISOs it was by trial and error that I found the correct setting for the bitstream box, even though it felt counter intuitive to untick the only reference to DSD over DLNA.

I was aware of DoPE and what it meant but it was not clear to me that MC could stream DSD any other way and that the best setting for this option was to turn it off.

[dtc]

As I recall the reference to DoPE in brackets has not always been there, it used to just say Bitstream DSD.
When I first tried to stream DSD over DLNA it did not work for me, while trying to figure out why I came across no other reference to DSD over DLNA so I assumed ticking the box was the only way to make it work.
Even with the new wording in brackets I did not know at the time if that was how my devices worked with DSD I just knew they supported DSD over DLNA.
It turns out the reason streaming DSD over DLNA was not working for me was because all my SACDs were stored as ISO files instead of individual DSF files and all my devices support native DSD not DoPE. Once I knew I had to split my ISOs it was by trial and error that I found the correct setting for the bitstream box, even though it felt counter intuitive to untick the only reference to DSD over DLNA.

I was aware of DoPE and what it meant but it was not clear to me that MC could stream DSD any other way and that the best setting for this option was to turn it off.

Thanks. That is consistent with what I see as the problem - people are often unsure if they should be using DoPE or not and, even if they do know, they are not sure what MC will do if they uncheck the box.  So, maybe a solution would be to have 2 options  -DSD over DOPe and DSD with Native Sample Rates (or something like that), with checking one box automatically unchecking the other. Or, perhaps just one box with DSD over DopE (uncheck for Native Sample Rates).  That would take the guess work out of what happens when the box is not checked.

And, I agree with AD that the Wiki should have a more complete explanation of the DSD options.  In, the early days of people using DSD, very few were using DLNA and when they did, almost all of them were using DoPE. Native sample rate transmission over DLNA came later, especially at higher sample rates became more common. So, I believe, most of the discussion and probably the wording of the checkbox were based on that early experience.  But, we now know that both DoPE and Native are being used and clarifying the wording may be appropriate.

[RoderickGI]

Remember folks, DLNA is a file transfer based protocol. So if you are playing a DSF file with Audio Mode set to "Original Format" via DLNA, then it will be delivered to the DLNA Renderer in the original DSF format, which is Native DSD.

Hence, there is no need for an additional setting to specify DSD Native. It happens anyway. However, if you wish to send DSD over PCM (DoP), then a setting is required, and it is still Bitstreaming because the bits are reconstructed bit-perfect at the DLNA Renderer.

[dtc]

Remember folks, DLNA is a file transfer based protocol. So if you are playing a DSF file with Audio Mode set to "Original Format" via DLNA, then it will be delivered to the DLNA Renderer in the original DSF format, which is Native DSD.

Hence, there is no need for an additional setting to specify DSD Native. It happens anyway. However, if you wish to send DSD over PCM (DoP), then a setting is required, and it is still Bitstreaming because the bits are reconstructed bit-perfect at the DLNA Renderer.

Agreed. But there is a lot of confusion about DoPE and Native, so any clarification seems like it would be helpful. I constantly see people questioning whether DLNA even supports DSD.

[dtc]

Agreed. But there is a lot of confusion about DoPE and Native, so any clarification seems like it would be helpful. I constantly see people questioning whether DLNA even supports DSD.

I think part of the confusion is over that the use of the term bitstreaming is for DLNA versus in regular transport (e.g. usb). For USB, bitstream generally means "do not make any changes, like dsps" to the signal. To send DSD, bitstreaming must be turn on.  There is no way to send DSD (DoP or Native) without bitstreaming turned on when sending to usb. But, with DLNA, the only place bitstreaming appears is to send DoPE.  However, with DLNA, the only place bitstreaming appears is to send DoPE.  There is no comparable way to set bitstreaming for native.

The Original setting in DLNA indeed means that the original format is sent without conversion and without dsp's being applied. So, it is essentially bitstreaming. Unfortunately, it is not immediately obvious to the new user, that Original is essentially bitstreaming. So, they go looking for the bitstreaming option that they are used to with DSD and usb.  The only reference to bitstreaming is Bitstreaming DSD, which they check, often not understanding what the reference to DoPE even means.

I do think it is useful to think about this wording of how to use DSD within DLNA. If it were more consistent with regularly transport (e.g. usb) it might be easier for people when they first start using DSD with DLNA.

As to the Wiki, there is a statement in the DSD section that discusses how to  send DSD via DLNA is through DoPE, but there is nothing in that section about sending Native DSD in the Native sampling rate.

" If you have a DAC that supports DoPE (the DLNA version of the DoP standard), Media Center can control the device and bitstream native DSD content directly to it over the network." 

The DLNA section does discuss using Original to send Native rather than DoPE format, but it is pretty well buried and pretty easy to miss.

"If you have a native DSD compatible renderer, you should not use this option. Instead use either "Original format" or "Specified format only when necessary" as de-select the file types including DSD that you don't want converted."

Including that Native statement from the DLNA section in the DSD section would probably be very useful.

I think a little attention to these issues might help new users avoid problems in the future.

As I said above, we now fully understand that DLNA supports both DoPE and native sample rate formats. Some minor tweaks might make that more obvious to the new user.

[RoderickGI]

If you had Wiki editing access, you could rewrite that "Advanced DLNA settings", or even the whole thing. I'm pretty sure Jim would give you access if you asked.

[dtc]

I will pass on Wiki editing.  Hopefully, the MC team will see the advantage of making some of these suggested changes and make them.  I really do think it will help the user experience when using DSD over DLNA.